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Author Topic: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update  (Read 124501 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #480 on: July 28, 2014, 02:23:56 pm »

I can see why a lot of people have been confused by this vague and somewhat disingenuous use of terminology.

Indeed, just here. Without the one sentence markeing speak from Adobe or the 19 pages of in depth discussion by Peter. This is exatly my issue with the silly term Non Destructive Editing. It means whatever the person using it wants or thinks it should mean. And if something else accomplishes the same result (the Save As analogy which is all that was), they can tell you it doesn't count. Case in point:

John says:Your example might fall inside or outside that definition depending on whether you're baking the results of your actions onto the file that you save.
The words might and depending are keys to the language.

Farmer says: Non-destructive implies, I believe, that within the image that you are using, you can revert to the original state (pre-editing).
Can't blame Farmer for writing implies and believes. One sometimes thinks this term is like a religious passage, you have to interpret a lot!

JJJ says: I would clarify and say that if you can revert back to the original image without using undo, then that would the concise description of non-destructive editing.
OK, concise. That's a good start, all I asked in the first place.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 02:25:28 pm by digitaldog »
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #481 on: July 28, 2014, 02:34:23 pm »

Non Destructive Editing ... means whatever the person using it wants or thinks it should mean. And if something else accomplishes the same result ... they can tell you it doesn't count.

No, they examine the exact workflow and consider whether it has the characteristics of non destructive editing. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... Not hard really, is it?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 02:40:06 pm by john beardsworth »
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BradSmith

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #482 on: July 28, 2014, 02:44:38 pm »

Moderator,
Isn't it time to close this thread? The last 15 or 20 posts show that it is time to close these children's playground..
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #483 on: July 28, 2014, 02:55:22 pm »

No Dave, it's not so related to history and is not disingenuous.

The term refers to image editing methods that preserve the editability of the object (file, layer etc) that you are working on, by applying your edits as parameters that can be refined or completely-removed in subsequent sessions. Adobe give some examples of PS workflows, and smart objects are a good example in that you can apply transforms, for example, which you can re-edit later. The same would apply to a LR workflow.

Your example might fall inside or outside that definition depending on whether you're baking the results of your actions onto the file that you save. If you're only adding adjustment layers, it might fit inside, but if you're baking your edits into that file's pixels, then you can't remove your edits in subsequent sessions. You'd have to go back to your original and repeat the work with whatever refinements you want to make.

John

Thank you John, I now feel as though I fully understand the terminology for what it actually means, as opposed to what I was being told it meant, and by people who I thought that knew what they were on about. I also agree that this may have never been a case of intended misinterpretation from those practitioners who were genuinely 'in the know', but I do still think it has become the generally accepted but incorrect assumption to most users.

Dave
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #484 on: July 28, 2014, 02:57:27 pm »

Moderator,
Isn't it time to close this thread? The last 15 or 20 posts show that it is time to close these children's playground..
Before doing so, a question of the NDI definers.

I set my camera to shoot a raw + JPEG and take both into ACR or LR (you pick).
I apply some edits (you pick, the same or different).
I render out two images to the same color space, bit depth etc (again, you pick).
Question: Are both files undergoing non destructive editing and if yes, are both equally non destructive? If the same or different, why?
TIA
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #485 on: July 28, 2014, 03:02:36 pm »

Moderator,
Isn't it time to close this thread? The last 15 or 20 posts show that it is time to close these children's playground..

Brad, I totally disagree, I for one have found this discussion both fascinating and informative. OK, it might have become a little combative at times, but none the less informative. There is nothing wrong with a spirited debate, just look away if it's annoying you.  ;)
 
Dave
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jjj

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #486 on: July 28, 2014, 04:00:01 pm »

Before doing so, a question of the NDI definers.

I set my camera to shoot a raw + JPEG and take both into ACR or LR (you pick).
I apply some edits (you pick, the same or different).
I render out two images to the same color space, bit depth etc (again, you pick).
Question: Are both files undergoing non destructive editing and if yes, are both equally non destructive? If the same or different, why?
TIA
LR's Dev module is ACR with a better UI. So they are the same thing processing wise, not to mention that a rendered out image file from either is no different from a flattened layered file saved from PS. i.e. no ability to undo any edits made to the outputted file. The original files in either ACR or LR however remain untouched and can be re-edited until the end of time or end of this thread which are about the same thing.  ;D

No idea what the point of the question really is, since you should know all this anyway as you claim to be a teacher of these tools.



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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #487 on: July 28, 2014, 04:04:30 pm »

LR's Dev module is ACR with a better UI. So they are the same thing processing wise, not to mention that a rendered out image file from either is no different from a flattened layered file saved from PS. i.e. no ability to undo any edits made to the outputted file. The original files in either ACR or LR however remain untouched and can be re-edited until the end of time or end of this thread which are about the same thing.  ;D
So far, nothing I don't know (about the two products and engines, I'm simply giving you an option).
Are both files are undergoing a non destructive workflow? It sounds like you're saying yes. Are they both equally non destructive?
Quote
No idea what the point of the question really is, since you should know all this anyway as you claim to be a teacher of these tools.
What I teach is to ignore the terminology non destructive workflow because it's so ill defined, hence the questions!
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PhotoEcosse

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #488 on: July 28, 2014, 04:34:30 pm »

What I teach is to ignore the terminology non destructive workflow because it's so ill defined, hence the questions!

To the best of my knowledge, I have never destroyed anything by taking a photograph of it - so I would suggest that my workflow is definitely non-destructive.

(Although, of course, interference theory might suggest otherwise.)
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Farmer

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #489 on: July 28, 2014, 06:19:13 pm »

If you have a file, which has edits which can be removed or undone to the extent that the original state of the file can be retrieved, then it can be said that the editing workflow involved is non-destructive because the original state is recoverable from within the file itself, even after saving and reopening.

If you workflow follows that, then it's non-destructive.  If it doesn't, then it's destructive (regardless of whether you keep a copy of the original - as most do).
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Phil Brown

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #490 on: July 28, 2014, 06:21:03 pm »

If you have a file, which has edits which can be removed or undone to the extent that the original state of the file can be retrieved, then it can be said that the editing workflow involved is non-destructive because the original state is recoverable from within the file itself, even after saving and reopening.
So it's all about the edits themselves, not the results of the edit.
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MarkH2

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #491 on: July 28, 2014, 08:06:37 pm »

A fairly concise definition of nondestructive editing, from  “Real World Adobe Photoshop CS3,” Blatner, Chavez, and Fraser, 2008, p. 652.  “The Nondestructive Workflow…work nondestructively whenever possible, using tools like adjustment layers and masks to keep our options open as long as possible.  With Smart Filters and the enhancements to Smart Objects, particularly when it comes to raw camera images, Photoshop CS3 makes it possible to keep a wide range of edits in a reversible state, so that you can back out of them at any time.  Here are all of the typical image-editing steps using the nondestructive editing features in Photoshop CS3 [accompanying figure is titled “A Photoshop document built nondestructively” and shows Photoshop layers: base image raw file Smart Object modified by Smart Filters, such as Shadow/Highlight, with patching and other layers, such as curves, above the base]    

“Using these techniques, you can, at any time, strip away every last edit and return to the original base image, or adjust the intensity of any edit whenever you like.  It’s an astounding degree of flexibility, but again, pushing nondestructive editing this far can eat up your hard drive space and RAM in a hurry.  To mitigate this, you can head for a middle ground where you rasterize some layers into pixels when you’re happy with them.” (emphasis added) (edited to correct copyright date)
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Farmer

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #492 on: July 28, 2014, 08:12:21 pm »

So it's all about the edits themselves, not the results of the edit.

No, it's entirely about the results of the edits and whether or not they can be reversed, removed, undone, etc., to the point that you have the original, unaltered, data available within the same file.
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Phil Brown

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #493 on: July 28, 2014, 08:16:20 pm »

No, it's entirely about the results of the edits and whether or not they can be reversed, removed, undone, etc., to the point that you have the original, unaltered, data available within the same file.
OK so if it's also about the results of the edits, what about my raw + JPEG?
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Farmer

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #494 on: July 28, 2014, 10:44:22 pm »

Sorry, Andrew, I'm missing your question somehow.

If you have a raw + jpeg you have two files.  They exist independently of each other.  Destruction or not relates to the original file, whatever format, produced by the camera.  If you have presets on your jpegs, the resulting file is still the basis before you edit it and clearly outside of the control of any editing software.

If you have two files (or 10 or a million) produced by the camera and each is different, a non-destructive or destructive workflow then relates to the handling of that file and whether you can revert to the original state of that file, not to some raw (another bad pun) count of photons.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #495 on: July 29, 2014, 12:26:34 am »

A fairly concise definition of nondestructive editing, from  “Real World Adobe Photoshop CS3,” Blatner, Chavez, and Fraser, 2008, p. 652.  “The Nondestructive Workflow…work nondestructively whenever possible, using tools like adjustment layers and masks to keep our options open as long as possible.

I don't disagree with what was likely Bruce saying this (not sure if it was Bruce, but I do remember him talking about this...could have been David or Conrad though), but there's one thing that many people fail to grasp when working with Adjustment Layers in Photoshop. You can still create situations where you'll get "destructive" edits with adjustment layers. Many people forget that when Photoshop applies an adjustment ayer, if does so in a consecutive manner applying one adjustment after the other and s on till they're all applied.

So, if you add multiple curves adjustment layers, you can still pretty much screw up an image just like applying multiple consecutive direct curves adjustments. Just cause you have an adjustment layer doesn't mean that all of a sudden, the edits are no longer destructive...they are just infantely re-adjustable until you flatten.

Yes, adjustment layers allow re-editability...but when you stack a bunch of adjustment layers together, the net result can be very destructive...

This doesn't apply in the same manner when editing parametric edits in ACR or LR. No matter what order you do things, the order and totality of the edits still are applied in the same order in the processing pipeline. Yes, you can step on the tone mapping of the Basic panel by adding Curves on top...but in my experience, this doesn't lead to the same sort of issues you find in Photoshop when staking a bunch of adjustment layers.

So guys, at what point can we determine exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? When you figure that out, let me know will ya?

:~)
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BradSmith

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #496 on: July 29, 2014, 02:49:27 am »

Dave,
I had two reasons for my comment.  People engaged in the ongoing debate will most likely disagree with both.
 
First, I thought the "combative" tone during an off topic discussion of semantics on a photo forum was, a little like kids in the playground kicking sand at each other, just for the pleasure of kicking sand.  Yes, I know.  I'm sensitive. 
 
Secondly, all of this is happening well over 400 posts into a topic about Adobe Creative Cloud's reception/implementation.   Long ago in this thread, long trains of posts went off into new, unrelated territory to the Topic.   The semantics of Destructive/Non-Destructive is the most recent example.   How would anyone browsing the Topic Titles have any idea that there was a "destructive/non-destructive" semantics debate occurring.  None of those searchers will ever get the chance to be either fascinated or informed by the discussion (as you have been), or shake their head as to the uselessness of this back and forth discussion (as I have been).  I say useless because all of the participants in the discussion understand exactly how all the software being discussed works in this regard, so a heated, semantics battle about what to call the software's behavior seems useless to me.

I assumed that if the moderator followed my suggestion and closed this Topic, then one of the participants would open a new topic with a title that somehow remotely identified what was being discussed.   Or one of the participants would come to their senses and start that new topic themselves now.   Focused Topics that more or less stay on track......I think they are a much better way to enable people to come to a discussion of interest, or avoid a Topic of disinterest.

Brad

Brad, I totally disagree, I for one have found this discussion both fascinating and informative. OK, it might have become a little combative at times, but none the less informative. There is nothing wrong with a spirited debate, just look away if it's annoying you.  ;)
 
Dave
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #497 on: July 29, 2014, 03:13:26 am »

Yes, adjustment layers allow re-editability...but when you stack a bunch of adjustment layers together, the net result can be very destructive...

This doesn't apply in the same manner when editing parametric edits in ACR or LR.


Hi Jeff, that's correct. However, that would be more about (non-)destructive editing than about a (non-)destructive workflow, IMHO. It would be slightly less ambiguous to talk about 'reversible' rather than 'non-destructive' where workflows are concerned, but non-destructive add some nice drama ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #498 on: July 29, 2014, 05:00:52 am »



Hi Jeff, that's correct. However, that would be more about (non-)destructive editing than about a (non-)destructive workflow, IMHO. It would be slightly less ambiguous to talk about 'reversible' rather than 'non-destructive' where workflows are concerned, but non-destructive add some nice drama ...

Cheers,
Bart

Bart, you have hit the nail on the head, it is 'reversible' rather than 'non-destructive' that should be the term being used.

The angels can now stop dancing on the head of a pin  ;)

Dave
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 05:02:29 am by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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jjj

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #499 on: July 29, 2014, 06:55:14 am »

Bart, you have hit the nail on the head, it is 'reversible' rather than 'non-destructive' that should be the term being used.
Though edits are only reversible after closing files because they are non-destructive, not to mention that destructive editing is PS is reversible too though the undo facility [until files are closed]. So hammer has in fact missed the nail and may have even hit the thumb.  ;D.

I have to say I'm a bit baffled by how something so very simple is proving so very difficult. But then Andrew was involved.  :-\
Neither do I think 'non-destructive' is marketing speak or overly dramatic, but a simply an accurate way of describing the activity.
Imagine some photos on slide film that I want to project with a yellow tint - two basic options I project through a yellow filter or I stain the slides yellow. The equivalent in PS is adding a yellow filter adjustment layer or changing the pixels in the layer to be yellowish. With the second options, the film the slide will be stain damaged and with PS the non-yellow pixels will be changed/destroyed. The non destructive option in both cases is removing the yellow filter. Simples.
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