C1 v7 problem

[jeanvalentin]

After spending (better said wasting) time with catalogs, this is how it looks to me: useless and unreliable feature. I'm not even sure why it was included in this release especially since, Phil mentioned, it looks like Phase approach is "my way or the highway". In this case I'll choose the highway.

LR will still be my main RAW developer since the workflow is just easy and elegant (and the output is great; yes, with certain files, the output is better from C1 and that's why I will still use it from time to time).

One thing is for sure: I have no compelling reason to fork out money for the next release. And hopefully, that would change Phase mind in terms of listening to their customers (yeah, I know they do .... several iterations later when they finally get that there is a better way of doing things).

[David Grover / Capture One]

 I can see the LR windows as I do in a Explorer Browser, and this familiarity is nice and painless.

I don't understand this argument as you can do exactly the same in Capture One?

[Phil Indeblanc]

Well, not really. The initial startup of LR, has these familiar windows. C1 has the C1 window and then more before you go into "Choose"

Here is the LOOong  version of the observations below(they are not tic for tat or any calculated observations) ....(this just shows HOW to get from A to B. Not that you can or can't).
Don't knock me for this. I hope you can appreciate the time I took, and reply with constructive feedback please! :-)

Better yet take this from a marketing director stand point and give it to PhaseOne for C1v7.2 or a NEW C1v_PRO-LITE (DeveloperOnly)


LR scenario:

Existing:
When you launch LR, it asks you if you want a New catalog or choose from existing.
_In the case of New:
  As soon as you click New, it opens up my VERY familiar OS window with all my drives and folders. Something users that do file and folder arrangements are very familiar with. So this make it a easy step to say to oneself...."I would like to store catalogs in    this drive and folder". Done!
_In the case of selecting a Existing:
  Select from ones in the list, or again, Open up the OS browser/Explorer and go to where you know you made it.
*****There are no additional folders created when using this system. It makes it simple and straight forward.

LR New scenario:
Pretty much the same thing...Select New, Name the catalog in the familiar OS window.Opens the LR workspace with "Import"option. So the location and worrisome part is done....then, this brings up other another windows with a 3 panel interface. This shows you the FROM, the Content, and the TO. Makes it easy to see. It also has descriptions to the commands on top-center. (This is where I think LR NEEDS to improve as a force field with neutral default). You better MAKE SURE you either Copy, Move or ADD the images to the Catalog. And in my needs it is always ADD(I guess this means the same as Current does in C1). So all your files STAY put, but catalog thumbnails are created and placed where you wanted the catalog to be. On the left panel where things are placed, you get all the options from Metadata, Naming, dev settings, etc...select and Import, Done. (you get a grid viewer of course, plus a single image view)
(I resisted Catalogs and didn't use LR for sometime, until LRv3.x). I still don't care for a Catalog working with a Developer approach. but, the RAW developer was good enough to adapt).


C1v7 Sessions scenario: (this is not a direct comparison as it is Catalog(LR) vs  Sessions(C1)

When you launch C1, I am automatically in the "space/session/catalog(?)" I worked on last.(This CAN be a good thing for Sessions, not really a good method for Catalog) in the Exposure window.
Go to click the Folder tab, and then to one of the Session Folders, there it is the one with the Desktop and Lib, Computer, Network, and User folder.
So go to Network to select the drive.  And make sure to select the right folder, so C1 doesn't add unnecessary Settings, Cache C1 folders in areas undesirable.  Work away.


For C1v7 NEW Catalog, here is the scenario:

Launch C1v7, Let it load the last Sessionor what you worked on last (hope it isn't a large folder. No such luck with P45 or larger files).
File, Open, A C1 window with Name Catalog comes up, and Location and once you Ok, you get the backup window which I'm not sure what it will backup, so Close. Select Import (or Play video that didn't help me get started when I first installed C1v7).
It opens a C1 window with multiple parameters, and starts at where I had left off from 2 weeks ago, when I first tried C1 Catalog. So after you Select yet again, "Choose", opens a OS Window to browse to your folder. I select it, OK.
I notice a CaptureOne folder in it already, but ignore this. And the 1300+ images populate rather fast, Nice! So here I can select "Import To" (Whats it gonna do? Copy, move, Add, or? how does it work?(It would be nice to implement little explanation popups you can toggle to help), It has Current Location, Inside Catalog, or Choose. (Choose opens up the familiar OS Window).  So to remember I already made the catalog on the initial New Catalog window, so this must mean that it can Keep the images into the catalog(copy or move?), or leave in current location. I select Current. The other option is merged and truncated into each other(moving the window bar didn't fix this). It is "Collection"  which has options of Recent Imports Only, Capture Collection, or Select Album. Not sure what they are yet But likely something I would use once in the folders and looking at images closer to make decisions. [/color]Whats nice is it shows the space left on the drive. Backup is the next option, and I guess you can make that choice now(you might be looking for it later?). "Naming(or renaming?)" we can ignore for leaving the files in Current location. Metadata is nice to add here if you can. File info is nice and instant/fast. Adjustments maybe something to Automate.(include existing adjustments (Hope this picks up the Session adjustments made when working in Sessions). You have search and other options that maybe helpful at some time.....select files or ALL and Violla!


Launch C1, and (C1 takes some time to shut down as it does some background work. Acceptable, but, what was it doing?)
So, Launch C1 and...

It opens where I left off last in Sessions, ok.
Not too problematic, I need to go in Library and in front of Sessions I select the + sign for.....either New Session or New Catalog..Hmm, where is the catalog I made. Its not in the drop down window left of the large + sign.
OK, to the File dropdown, and to "Open" or Open Recent, and I see cosessions.db under Recent. That is it(not the Session I opened just earlier for the Sessions example above). So I wanted to see what happens if I open the existing cosessions.db, and it doesn't prompt to it. still have a workspace without images. Sorry I veared a bit...so let me try to open the catalog I had made.

It opens right up to the familiar OS window, and I have C1 Catalog, C1 Library, C1_Catalog(I created), Super!


So, yes, they both achieve the same, even exact functions, but how you get there is rather different.  I honestly can't quantify THAT many differences, really 2 or 3 steps, which are stumpers... BUT, I do know that I have to change my thinking gears when in C1, while LR is cohesive and has a visually friendly GUI. I have used C1 since I got it with my first DB about 8 years ago, so it isn't that I am uncomfortable or unfamiliar with it. If I can give it words, I could say it is choppy, and abrupt in behavior. Also lacks visual simplicity and comfort.  It is a software I want to love, but find myself often wanting to push rather than embrace.  Thank goodness for open mindedness, open markets, and I really love C1 for the developing engine. Which is what the core is all about and why I continue to use it. But all the other add-ons after 3.7x, I care little about. I'll take a 3.7x-(64bit) with new RAW developer ANY DAY! (OK, metadata addition IS very useful)

David, this isn't debative or argumentative. It's observational. and experience.

Still working with this new Raw engine...I'm look at some portrait files from a DB and I keep trying to get the look of C1v7 very basic default setting, and I can't even get that close to what I like seeing in C1...Not even to a point where I can say, "well that's close enough".
C1 just makes things so clear crisp, no plasticity. Sharp, default is already bumped up, but, still took down Exposure a couple notches, up on Clarity a bit also H/S a bit, and the colors alone...That is I think the point in the way it processes the colors. It keeps things of color independent of the lume, some how. While in LR, when you do some "comparable" processing(tools that sound similar do work differently) like the calirty, you lose color, brilliance, even in sharpness, you lose clarity in areas that C1 manages to keep smooth and clear.  So C1 can NOT take a back seat in editing, LR does, BUT for general purpose I can get away with at least 50% of work in LR. Makes you wonder for those who have tried. I wonder if there is a way to replicate(Or a base default working method ) C1 files in LR?
Also I use more of the features in LR like brushes, as I find them intuitive and inviting to go about them(surely its the PSAdobe familiarity) ...AND I'll manage in a dedicated DAM, (along with forced tLR catalog).

Praise Phase for keeping the option of both Sessions and Catalog...Oh and the developing engine!

[David Grover / Capture One]

Well, not really. The initial startup of LR, has these familiar windows. C1 has the C1 window and then more before you go into "Choose"

Here is the LOOong  version of the observations below(they are not tic for tat or any calculated observations) ....(this just shows HOW to get from A to B. Not that you can or can't).
Don't knock me for this. I hope you can appreciate the time I took, and reply with constructive feedback please! :-)

Better yet take this from a marketing director stand point and give it to PhaseOne for C1v7.2 or a NEW C1v_PRO-LITE (DeveloperOnly)


LR scenario:

Existing:
When you launch LR, it asks you if you want a New catalog or choose from existing.
_In the case of New:
  As soon as you click New, it opens up my VERY familiar OS window with all my drives and folders. Something users that do file and folder arrangements are very familiar with. So this make it a easy step to say to oneself...."I would like to store catalogs in    this drive and folder". Done!
_In the case of selecting a Existing:
  Select from ones in the list, or again, Open up the OS browser/Explorer and go to where you know you made it.
*****There are no additional folders created when using this system. It makes it simple and straight forward.

LR New scenario:
Pretty much the same thing...Select New, Name the catalog in the familiar OS window.Opens the LR workspace with "Import"option. So the location and worrisome part is done....then, this brings up other another windows with a 3 panel interface. This shows you the FROM, the Content, and the TO. Makes it easy to see. It also has descriptions to the commands on top-center. (This is where I think LR NEEDS to improve as a force field with neutral default). You better MAKE SURE you either Copy, Move or ADD the images to the Catalog. And in my needs it is always ADD(I guess this means the same as Current does in C1). So all your files STAY put, but catalog thumbnails are created and placed where you wanted the catalog to be. On the left panel where things are placed, you get all the options from Metadata, Naming, dev settings, etc...select and Import, Done. (you get a grid viewer of course, plus a single image view)
(I resisted Catalogs and didn't use LR for sometime, until LRv3.x). I still don't care for a Catalog working with a Developer approach. but, the RAW developer was good enough to adapt).


C1v7 Sessions scenario: (this is not a direct comparison as it is Catalog(LR) vs  Sessions(C1)

When you launch C1, I am automatically in the "space/session/catalog(?)" I worked on last.(This CAN be a good thing for Sessions, not really a good method for Catalog) in the Exposure window.
Go to click the Folder tab, and then to one of the Session Folders, there it is the one with the Desktop and Lib, Computer, Network, and User folder.
So go to Network to select the drive.  And make sure to select the right folder, so C1 doesn't add unnecessary Settings, Cache C1 folders in areas undesirable.  Work away.


For C1v7 NEW Catalog, here is the scenario:

Launch C1v7, Let it load the last Sessionor what you worked on last (hope it isn't a large folder. No such luck with P45 or larger files).
File, Open, A C1 window with Name Catalog comes up, and Location and once you Ok, you get the backup window which I'm not sure what it will backup, so Close. Select Import (or Play video that didn't help me get started when I first installed C1v7).
It opens a C1 window with multiple parameters, and starts at where I had left off from 2 weeks ago, when I first tried C1 Catalog. So after you Select yet again, "Choose", opens a OS Window to browse to your folder. I select it, OK.
I notice a CaptureOne folder in it already, but ignore this. And the 1300+ images populate rather fast, Nice! So here I can select "Import To" (Whats it gonna do? Copy, move, Add, or? how does it work?(It would be nice to implement little explanation popups you can toggle to help), It has Current Location, Inside Catalog, or Choose. (Choose opens up the familiar OS Window).  So to remember I already made the catalog on the initial New Catalog window, so this must mean that it can Keep the images into the catalog(copy or move?), or leave in current location. I select Current. The other option is merged and truncated into each other(moving the window bar didn't fix this). It is "Collection"  which has options of Recent Imports Only, Capture Collection, or Select Album. Not sure what they are yet But likely something I would use once in the folders and looking at images closer to make decisions. [/color]Whats nice is it shows the space left on the drive. Backup is the next option, and I guess you can make that choice now(you might be looking for it later?). "Naming(or renaming?)" we can ignore for leaving the files in Current location. Metadata is nice to add here if you can. File info is nice and instant/fast. Adjustments maybe something to Automate.(include existing adjustments (Hope this picks up the Session adjustments made when working in Sessions). You have search and other options that maybe helpful at some time.....select files or ALL and Violla!


Launch C1, and (C1 takes some time to shut down as it does some background work. Acceptable, but, what was it doing?)
So, Launch C1 and...

It opens where I left off last in Sessions, ok.
Not too problematic, I need to go in Library and in front of Sessions I select the + sign for.....either New Session or New Catalog..Hmm, where is the catalog I made. Its not in the drop down window left of the large + sign.
OK, to the File dropdown, and to "Open" or Open Recent, and I see cosessions.db under Recent. That is it(not the Session I opened just earlier for the Sessions example above). So I wanted to see what happens if I open the existing cosessions.db, and it doesn't prompt to it. still have a workspace without images. Sorry I veared a bit...so let me try to open the catalog I had made.

It opens right up to the familiar OS window, and I have C1 Catalog, C1 Library, C1_Catalog(I created), Super!


So, yes, they both achieve the same, even exact functions, but how you get there is rather different.  I honestly can't quantify THAT many differences, really 2 or 3 steps, which are stumpers... BUT, I do know that I have to change my thinking gears when in C1, while LR is cohesive and has a visually friendly GUI. I have used C1 since I got it with my first DB about 8 years ago, so it isn't that I am uncomfortable or unfamiliar with it. If I can give it words, I could say it is choppy, and abrupt in behavior. Also lacks visual simplicity and comfort.  It is a software I want to love, but find myself often wanting to push rather than embrace.  Thank goodness for open mindedness, open markets, and I really love C1 for the developing engine. Which is what the core is all about and why I continue to use it. But all the other add-ons after 3.7x, I care little about. I'll take a 3.7x-(64bit) with new RAW developer ANY DAY! (OK, metadata addition IS very useful)

David, this isn't debative or argumentative. It's observational. and experience.

Still working with this new Raw engine...I'm look at some portrait files from a DB and I keep trying to get the look of C1v7 very basic default setting, and I can't even get that close to what I like seeing in C1...Not even to a point where I can say, "well that's close enough".
C1 just makes things so clear crisp, no plasticity. Sharp, default is already bumped up, but, still took down Exposure a couple notches, up on Clarity a bit also H/S a bit, and the colors alone...That is I think the point in the way it processes the colors. It keeps things of color independent of the lume, some how. While in LR, when you do some "comparable" processing(tools that sound similar do work differently) like the calirty, you lose color, brilliance, even in sharpness, you lose clarity in areas that C1 manages to keep smooth and clear.  So C1 can NOT take a back seat in editing, LR does, BUT for general purpose I can get away with at least 50% of work in LR. Makes you wonder for those who have tried. I wonder if there is a way to replicate(Or a base default working method ) C1 files in LR?
Also I use more of the features in LR like brushes, as I find them intuitive and inviting to go about them(surely its the PSAdobe familiarity) ...AND I'll manage in a dedicated DAM, (along with forced tLR catalog).

Praise Phase for keeping the option of both Sessions and Catalog...Oh and the developing engine!

Phil,

Ill be honest, I am struggling to follow your post a little bit.

In Lightroom they have for the Catalog .lrcat and .lrdata.  Capture One has .cocatalog.  Just the one file.

The .cocatalog is the database aspect (like .lrcat).

Images you import into the catalog can either be copied inside of the .cocatalog file ('inside catalog' option in the import window) or you can reference images at their current location ('Current Location' option in the import window).  If you want to import and copy a file to a new location, i.e perhaps from memory card to permanent storage, use 'Choose Folder' option in the import window.

The .cocatalog file and your images don't have to exisit in the same location.  i.e. You could have your .cocatalog file on your laptop and the images on external storage so there is no size limitation.

Even if you don't have access to the external storage (maybe you are travelling) you could still then browse, edit and make most visual adjustments as well.

That's all there is to it.

Look out for this weeks Image Quality Professor tip this week as it digs deeper into it.  blog.phaseone.com.

David.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Phil,

Ill be honest, I am struggling to follow your post a little bit.

In Lightroom they have for the Catalog .lrcat and .lrdata.  Capture One has .cocatalog.  Just the one file.

The .cocatalog is the database aspect (like .lrcat).

Images you import into the catalog can either be copied inside of the .cocatalog file ('inside catalog' option in the import window) or you can reference images at their current location ('Current Location' option in the import window).  If you want to import and copy a file to a new location, i.e perhaps from memory card to permanent storage, use 'Choose Folder' option in the import window.

The .cocatalog file and your images don't have to exisit in the same location.  i.e. You could have your .cocatalog file on your laptop and the images on external storage so there is no size limitation.

Even if you don't have access to the external storage (maybe you are travelling) you could still then browse, edit and make most visual adjustments as well.

That's all there is to it.

Look out for this weeks Image Quality Professor tip this week as it digs deeper into it.  blog.phaseone.com.

David.

I did my best to be detailed on the steps, so if you're having trouble, I would suggest you try the steps as I have. Otherwise, I can understand it being hard to imagine how all this works step by step. And you are the SW dev manager. Imagine others reading this, and me! :-)

In your reply, I didn't see any ref to much I mention. I understand the files it creates for Catalog, and the similarities and its portability which I personally have not used in the past 10+ years, with any DAM.

This bit of my observation was a good summary...

So, yes, they both achieve the same, even exact functions, but how you get there is rather different.  I honestly can't quantify THAT many differences, really 2 or 3 steps, which are stumpers... BUT, I do know that I have to change my thinking gears when in C1, while LR is cohesive and has a visually friendly GUI. I have used C1 since I got it with my first DB about 8 years ago, so it isn't that I am uncomfortable or unfamiliar with it. If I can give it words, I could say it is choppy, and abrupt in behavior. Also lacks visual simplicity and comfort.  It is a software I want to love, but find myself often wanting to push rather than embrace