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Author Topic: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS  (Read 12310 times)

kers

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 10:18:07 am »

Leica tries to connect to the brand 'Magnum' in their advertisement but the photos only show that branding is not enough... similar to the Hasselblad Lunar

http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_new/
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Pieter Kers
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maxgruzen

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 11:15:13 am »

Unfortunetly it's too little, to late for me. I suspect the new Sony RX-1 will blow it out of the water. Having used Leica's since 1949 I say this with a great feeling of sadness for I see the demise of this wonderful camera.
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hasselbladfan

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 11:24:23 am »

Max,

I would not say this so quickly. Eight years ago, they were in a much worse shape.

Now, they cannot deliver the demand for M9s and I am sure it will be the same for the new M.

And if you can afford the S, it delivers what we always were looking for in the R range. Top quality glass that helps you make great pictures.

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markd61

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 05:03:53 pm »

What I have not seen mentioned is whether this sensor has an anti-aliasing filter. As that was a key aspect of the M-9 and the S-2 it seems that this would follow on the new sensor.
When I heard of this sensor I actually thought of Nikon and the D-800E. I then thought that SOny would have been a better partner because of their expertise in miniaturization.

I hope for all the best for CMOSIS and Leica.
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telyt

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2012, 01:52:47 pm »

What I have not seen mentioned is whether this sensor has an anti-aliasing filter.

According to the M's product manager Stephan Daniel it does not have an AA filter.
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Erick Boileau

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 05:15:22 am »

According to the M's product manager Stephan Daniel it does not have an AA filter.
Where did you read it  ?
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Erick Boileau

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 05:16:24 am »

and what was the point not to buy from Sony Semiconductor ? Sony can outfit their sensor w/ whatever CFA/AA/IR/microlenses as required by Leica... no ? so what is better that CMOSIS has ? price ?
I twas the best thing they could do to avoid   that Sony-eveywhere-thing
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JeanMichel

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 08:31:46 am »

Where did you read it  ?

Hi,
See the video interview in Overgaard's page: http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M10-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-Leica-M10-Monochrome-Digital-Rangefinder.html
Daniels does say that there is no AA filter on the sensor.
I will be very tempted to purchase one, with the grip and the viewer. With LV, I may well return using the M for exhibition documentation (I now use a 5d2 for that). Cost is, of course, is an obstacle but I have used Leica's since the late 60's an feel most comfortable with using them compared to other cameras. I am sure that other cameras, including my 5d2, have major advantages over the M but there is something about using a camera and lenses that I know well to create the images I seek.
Jean-Michel 
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Erick Boileau

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 08:33:43 am »

Thanks

for me that's not a question, it is already pre-ordered
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TMARK

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 09:59:25 am »

Thanks

for me that's not a question, it is already pre-ordered

Me too.  If it is as flexible as it appears, I will sell my dslrs and Aptus.
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BJL

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New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS: why not Sony? Why not for the new S too?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2012, 10:16:43 am »

and what was the point not to buy from Sony Semiconductor ?
I would like to know the answer too. My best guess is that it is because (1) there is some custom work needed (microlenses adapted to handle wide angle lenses) and (2) Sony is not interested in custom work in what for it are very small quantitities, while the far smaller company CMOSIS is more oriented to doing small batch custom work. For one thing, the CMOSIS web-site advertises "custom(ized)” products.

Q2. Why not Teledyne-Dalsa, which also does custom CMOS?
My guess: its custom CMOS is oriented to industrial, scientific uses like X-rays, and is not well suited to high quality "standard" photography.

Q3. Why not a CMOS sensor for the new S also?
My guess: a CMOS S might come, but its higher costs, lower volume, and far smaller loyal customer base mean that the Leica M is the better place to start. Also, CMOSIS already offers 36x24mm in standard products, but nothing larger, so fab. ability might be a limitation.
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telyt

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS: why not Sony? Why not for the new S too?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 10:52:02 am »

CMOSIS already offers 36x24mm in standard products, but nothing larger, so fab. ability might be a limitation.

CMOSIS doesn't do any fab.  The new sensor is made by STMicroelectronics.  See http://leicarumors.com/2012/09/19/the-24mp-max-sensor-inside-the-new-leica-m-is-mabe-by-cmosis.aspx/
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BJL

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS: why not Sony? Why not for the new S too?
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 11:14:51 am »

CMOSIS doesn't do any fab.  The new sensor is made by STMicroelectronics.  See http://leicarumors.com/2012/09/19/the-24mp-max-sensor-inside-the-new-leica-m-is-mabe-by-cmosis.aspx/
Clearly not: CMOSIS is a tiny company (I have heard 47 employees) so clearly just a design shop. (Like Apple, but a bit smaller!) Thanks for the details of who does the fab.: I think they were also the ones who made the later of the FillFactory sensors for Kodak DSLRs after Tower Semiconductor was dropped.

I was just alluding to possible limitations on whoever does their fab., who might or might not be setup for the highly specialized multiple stitching needed to make sensors as big as 45x30mm. On that subject, none of the standard sensor designs from CMOSIS are bigger than the 33x26mm maximum field size (aka "reticle size") of the steppers, so this sensor for Leica might be its first stitched product. I misspoke in calling those standard CMOSIS sensors 36x24mm: they are loosely described as 35mm format, but are not of exactly the traditional 35mm dimensions.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 11:17:49 am by BJL »
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telyt

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 11:40:52 am »

I will be very tempted to purchase one, with the grip and the viewer.

The temptation is hard to resist.  As soon as they remove the rangefinder (as much an anachronism as the SLR mirror box) and build the EVF into the body, resistance will be futile.
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mshea

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2012, 01:26:14 pm »

The one thing that kept me from forking over for the M9 was the low-light, high ISO performance. So this looks very promising!

I've seen moiré comparisons of the M9 vs. the Fuji Pro-x1 where the latter was obviously superior. Wondering how the M10 will stack up.

Merrill
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hasselbladfan

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2012, 03:49:07 am »

I asked that question at the Photokina and nobody at the booth was able to give me an answer to this.

It seems the latest generation of Reps are not even aware what stop down metering is.  :)
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georgl

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2012, 08:38:15 am »

I've handled one on PK - I was quite impressed, it's a much more refined digital M compared to it's predecessors: fast and responsive, no cheap plastic and buttons anymore, good LCD, rugged feeling (although entirely differenct top controls - they are completely sealed). It's NOT bigger than a M9, only the thumb-rest adds thickness. It feels a little bit heavier, propably due to the larger battery and rugged design.

The EVF is usable but just a re-branded Epson product and certainly not a replacement for the rangefinder - maybe the successor will implement a hybrid rangefinder/EVF.

Everything depends now on the IQ - making a custom-designed/manufactured sensor is a groundbreaking decision, IMHO. It is in indeed made in a stitching process in Grenoble, France. The whole design is different to the Sony-sensors which are hardly usable with true WA - in many sensor-segments Sony is not the leading supplier anyway and it's always good to have an alternative!
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uaiomex

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2012, 10:19:37 am »

This grabbed my attention. I've never heard of "wide problems" with sony sensors. The 12-24 zoom lens is a very popular lens from Nikon. Wish I'd know more about this.
Eduardo


The whole design is different to the Sony-sensors which are hardly usable with true WA - in many sensor-segments Sony is not the leading supplier anyway and it's always good to have an alternative!
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BJL

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2012, 10:56:46 am »

- making a custom-designed/manufactured sensor is a groundbreaking decision, IMHO. It is in indeed made in a stitching process in Grenoble, France. The whole design is different to the Sony-sensors which are hardly usable with true WA - in many sensor-segments Sony is not the leading supplier anyway and it's always good to have an alternative!
I am not at all interested in having a Leica M, but I am curious and hopeful for the rise of good quality third party sensor designers like CMOSIS and whoever Nikon works with for its 1” sensors. (Design is my concern: there seem to be a number of companies willing and able to fab a good sensor once given the masks by a good design shop.) It makes me nervous that the best sensor technology might be dominated by a company whose camera technology, lens selection and format size offerings are not my favorites: I would like my favorite camera maker to be able to shop around for the best sensors.


By the way, which WA lenses are you referring to having problems with Sony sensors? Just some rangefinder ones used on NEX bodies, or also some SLR WA lenses?

Also, it does not bother me at all that Leica (like Olympus) outsources its EVF panels from an industry leader like Epson. That wheel does not need to be reinvented by Leica just for the sake of a "made in Europe" label.
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shadowblade

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Re: New Leica M - 24 MP CMOS
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2012, 11:47:16 am »

This grabbed my attention. I've never heard of "wide problems" with sony sensors. The 12-24 zoom lens is a very popular lens from Nikon. Wish I'd know more about this.
Eduardo



It's not a UWA problem per se, and it's not a Sony problem either. It's a problem due to the design of most digital microlenses, and specific to non-retrofocus wide angle lenses.

Most digital sensor microlenses are only efficient in collecting light over a moderate range of incident angles relative to the sensor plane. Any more than that, such as encountered near the edges of the image circle of non-retrofocus lenses, causes deep vignetting and colour shifts (since different wavelengths are refracted differently). Film cameras aren't affected by this, because film grains don't care about the incident angle of light. Retrofocus lenses get around this issue because they are essentially a normal lens with a 'wide converter' attached to the front - the angle of incident light hitting the sensor is derived from the angle of view of the main lens, not the angle of view of the wide converter in fromt of it. Leica uses a special microlens design to alleviate this problem, to some success. It's by no means perfect, though, otherwise non-retrofocus lenses such as the Voigtlander 12mm and 15mm lenses would be a lot more popular than they currently are.
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