Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: hasselbladfan on September 17, 2012, 03:28:06 pm
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http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_new/
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The perfection of digital rangefinder technology
Solms, Germany (September 17, 2012) - Leica Camera presents a groundbreaking milestone in the nearly 60 year history of the Leica rangefinder system: The Leica M. Setting entirely new standards, the Leica M unites the ultimate in rangefinder precision with cutting edge digital technology. As the first camera to implement a newly designed CMOS image sensor and to feature additional focusing methods and functions such as Live View and Full HD video capability, it is the most versatile Leica rangefinder model ever. Remaining true to the legendary values of the M-System, the Leica M not only provides the advantages of rangefinder photography, but also for the first time, offers compatibility with Leica R legacy lenses. As with every innovation and development since the flagship line’s inception, the Leica M was created to capture fleeting moments of time and transform them into living history.
The Leica M also marks the beginning of a new era in the Leica product naming policy. In future, Leica M and S model names will omit the number suffix to emphasize the enduring and long-term significance of the respective systems.
In every respect, the new Leica M is the most innovative and versatile model the modern M-System has ever created. Looking to the future, the Leica M is the first in a long line of Leica rangefinder cameras to feature a completely new development in sensor technology; the Leica Max CMOS image sensor. This 24 MP, full 35 mm format sensor was designed and constructed in collaboration with CMOSIS especially for the camera and its use with M- and R-Lenses. This new development successfully transfers the characteristic advantages of CCD sensors, such as natural and brilliant color rendition and impressive reproduction of details, to a CMOS sensor.
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and price is more gentle than its CCD brethern
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Damn, I was looking forward to 36MP...
Everything else about the camera is perfect.
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This looks like a good move for Leica: some serious modernization (even the heresy of video!) and it skips over the idea of making an R-mount DSLR by instead making those manual-focus lenses fully usable in the modern version of "mirrorless" style: with either a peep-hole or rear-screen video viewfinder. Hopefully Leica of all companies has put a lot of thought into support for manual focus, and having focus-peaking is promising.
I am guessing that it is a Sony-derived sensor, albeit maybe with some customization like micro-lenses. [Edit: I guessed wrong; it is designed with Belgian company CMOSIS (http://www.cmosis.com/).] So it looks like one more act of trampling on the grave of Kodak, with the remaindered Kodak 18MP CCDs being cleared out in the M-E, a "budget" version of the M9.
But, is the accessory EVF only usable with R lenses, not M lenses, as the web-site seems to imply?
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Not very clear right now. I guess we will know more tomorrow.
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The EVF of course works with any attached lens, as does focus peaking.
It is absolutely not a Sony sensor.
Michael
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The EVF of course works with any attached lens, as does focus peaking.
It is absolutely not a Sony sensor.
Michael
can guess publicly (no NDA) who is the maker then ?
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They just released a video on You Tube about the features. 10x better than the press release !
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can guess publicly (no NDA) who is the maker then ?
To make up for my wrong guess above, I have edited in the correct information there: the Belgian company CMOSIS (http://www.cmosis.com/) is the designer of this bespoke sensor. That is in the third paragraph of the press release quoted at DPReview. (http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/09/17/Leica-M-full-frame-24MP-CMOS-rangefinder-with-focus-peaking-live-view-and-1080p-movies#press)
CMOSIS probably outsources fabrication though, being a small operation. From what I have read recently, it sounds like CMOSIS has been eating the lunch of the former Kodak and Dalsa sensor divisions by getting ahead on custom CMOS design while the other two stayed too much with CCDs.
Aside: maybe this is the company to produce a custom CMOS sensor for a camera in format larger than 36x24mm?
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CMOSIS is run by the guys who used to run Fillfactory, the company that had designed the Kodak SLR/n sensor.
Cheers,
Bernard
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and what was the point not to buy from Sony Semiconductor ? Sony can outfit their sensor w/ whatever CFA/AA/IR/microlenses as required by Leica... no ? so what is better that CMOSIS has ? price ?
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A three way review comparison between the Leica M, Sony RX1 and Sigma DP2M would be interesting.
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Did someone see a price announcement yet?
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Did someone see a price announcement yet?
$6,950 for the M and $5,450 for the M9 M-E according to dpreview.
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Nick/Edmund,
I'm wondering if you still have access to the Leica folks whether you could ask them if there are any thoughts about going back into production of some R lenses (longer ones I imagine) and/or design some new lenses, tilt/shift especially. While it's great to be able to use R lenses on the new M it won't bring them any reenue except for the adapter, and there seems to be an opportunity.
Thanks
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The M10 alone don't get me that excited. But the whole pack, with grip, EVF and some cool R lenses must be very cool to own. The Grip is very über cool.
But ...
Does it will beat the SIGMA DP2m at 45 mm ?? I don't think so, thus the lame attempt to say that their Belgium sensor is "special" ... lol
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The grip is fantastic with the GPS and the fast connection included if you need them.
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Okay, possibly a silly question, but are the R lens "fully" compatible, that is, do you need to do stop-down metering or can you focus and shoot wide open, like the R cameras do? All third party adapters so far operate stop-down.
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Okay, possibly a silly question, but are the R lens "fully" compatible, that is, do you need to do stop-down metering or can you focus and shoot wide open, like the R cameras do? All third party adapters so far operate stop-down.
My understanding is that you do have to stop down, but the EVF compensates for the light loss and presents a bright view for focusing. I look forward to an F and Blad V lens adapters as well from Fotodiox.
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Leica tries to connect to the brand 'Magnum' in their advertisement but the photos only show that branding is not enough... similar to the Hasselblad Lunar
http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m_new/
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Unfortunetly it's too little, to late for me. I suspect the new Sony RX-1 will blow it out of the water. Having used Leica's since 1949 I say this with a great feeling of sadness for I see the demise of this wonderful camera.
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Max,
I would not say this so quickly. Eight years ago, they were in a much worse shape.
Now, they cannot deliver the demand for M9s and I am sure it will be the same for the new M.
And if you can afford the S, it delivers what we always were looking for in the R range. Top quality glass that helps you make great pictures.
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What I have not seen mentioned is whether this sensor has an anti-aliasing filter. As that was a key aspect of the M-9 and the S-2 it seems that this would follow on the new sensor.
When I heard of this sensor I actually thought of Nikon and the D-800E. I then thought that SOny would have been a better partner because of their expertise in miniaturization.
I hope for all the best for CMOSIS and Leica.
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What I have not seen mentioned is whether this sensor has an anti-aliasing filter.
According to the M's product manager Stephan Daniel it does not have an AA filter.
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According to the M's product manager Stephan Daniel it does not have an AA filter.
Where did you read it ?
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and what was the point not to buy from Sony Semiconductor ? Sony can outfit their sensor w/ whatever CFA/AA/IR/microlenses as required by Leica... no ? so what is better that CMOSIS has ? price ?
I twas the best thing they could do to avoid that Sony-eveywhere-thing
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Where did you read it ?
Hi,
See the video interview in Overgaard's page: http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M10-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-Leica-M10-Monochrome-Digital-Rangefinder.html
Daniels does say that there is no AA filter on the sensor.
I will be very tempted to purchase one, with the grip and the viewer. With LV, I may well return using the M for exhibition documentation (I now use a 5d2 for that). Cost is, of course, is an obstacle but I have used Leica's since the late 60's an feel most comfortable with using them compared to other cameras. I am sure that other cameras, including my 5d2, have major advantages over the M but there is something about using a camera and lenses that I know well to create the images I seek.
Jean-Michel
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Thanks
for me that's not a question, it is already pre-ordered
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Thanks
for me that's not a question, it is already pre-ordered
Me too. If it is as flexible as it appears, I will sell my dslrs and Aptus.
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and what was the point not to buy from Sony Semiconductor ?
I would like to know the answer too. My best guess is that it is because (1) there is some custom work needed (microlenses adapted to handle wide angle lenses) and (2) Sony is not interested in custom work in what for it are very small quantitities, while the far smaller company CMOSIS is more oriented to doing small batch custom work. For one thing, the CMOSIS web-site advertises "custom(ized)” products.
Q2. Why not Teledyne-Dalsa, which also does custom CMOS?
My guess: its custom CMOS is oriented to industrial, scientific uses like X-rays, and is not well suited to high quality "standard" photography.
Q3. Why not a CMOS sensor for the new S also?
My guess: a CMOS S might come, but its higher costs, lower volume, and far smaller loyal customer base mean that the Leica M is the better place to start. Also, CMOSIS already offers 36x24mm in standard products, but nothing larger, so fab. ability might be a limitation.
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CMOSIS already offers 36x24mm in standard products, but nothing larger, so fab. ability might be a limitation.
CMOSIS doesn't do any fab. The new sensor is made by STMicroelectronics. See http://leicarumors.com/2012/09/19/the-24mp-max-sensor-inside-the-new-leica-m-is-mabe-by-cmosis.aspx/
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CMOSIS doesn't do any fab. The new sensor is made by STMicroelectronics. See http://leicarumors.com/2012/09/19/the-24mp-max-sensor-inside-the-new-leica-m-is-mabe-by-cmosis.aspx/
Clearly not: CMOSIS is a tiny company (I have heard 47 employees) so clearly just a design shop. (Like Apple, but a bit smaller!) Thanks for the details of who does the fab.: I think they were also the ones who made the later of the FillFactory sensors for Kodak DSLRs after Tower Semiconductor was dropped.
I was just alluding to possible limitations on whoever does their fab., who might or might not be setup for the highly specialized multiple stitching needed to make sensors as big as 45x30mm. On that subject, none of the standard sensor designs from CMOSIS are bigger than the 33x26mm maximum field size (aka "reticle size") of the steppers, so this sensor for Leica might be its first stitched product. I misspoke in calling those standard CMOSIS sensors 36x24mm: they are loosely described as 35mm format, but are not of exactly the traditional 35mm dimensions.
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I will be very tempted to purchase one, with the grip and the viewer.
The temptation is hard to resist. As soon as they remove the rangefinder (as much an anachronism as the SLR mirror box) and build the EVF into the body, resistance will be futile.
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The one thing that kept me from forking over for the M9 was the low-light, high ISO performance. So this looks very promising!
I've seen moiré comparisons of the M9 vs. the Fuji Pro-x1 where the latter was obviously superior. Wondering how the M10 will stack up.
Merrill
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I asked that question at the Photokina and nobody at the booth was able to give me an answer to this.
It seems the latest generation of Reps are not even aware what stop down metering is. :)
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I've handled one on PK - I was quite impressed, it's a much more refined digital M compared to it's predecessors: fast and responsive, no cheap plastic and buttons anymore, good LCD, rugged feeling (although entirely differenct top controls - they are completely sealed). It's NOT bigger than a M9, only the thumb-rest adds thickness. It feels a little bit heavier, propably due to the larger battery and rugged design.
The EVF is usable but just a re-branded Epson product and certainly not a replacement for the rangefinder - maybe the successor will implement a hybrid rangefinder/EVF.
Everything depends now on the IQ - making a custom-designed/manufactured sensor is a groundbreaking decision, IMHO. It is in indeed made in a stitching process in Grenoble, France. The whole design is different to the Sony-sensors which are hardly usable with true WA - in many sensor-segments Sony is not the leading supplier anyway and it's always good to have an alternative!
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This grabbed my attention. I've never heard of "wide problems" with sony sensors. The 12-24 zoom lens is a very popular lens from Nikon. Wish I'd know more about this.
Eduardo
The whole design is different to the Sony-sensors which are hardly usable with true WA - in many sensor-segments Sony is not the leading supplier anyway and it's always good to have an alternative!
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- making a custom-designed/manufactured sensor is a groundbreaking decision, IMHO. It is in indeed made in a stitching process in Grenoble, France. The whole design is different to the Sony-sensors which are hardly usable with true WA - in many sensor-segments Sony is not the leading supplier anyway and it's always good to have an alternative!
I am not at all interested in having a Leica M, but I am curious and hopeful for the rise of good quality third party sensor designers like CMOSIS and whoever Nikon works with for its 1” sensors. (Design is my concern: there seem to be a number of companies willing and able to fab a good sensor once given the masks by a good design shop.) It makes me nervous that the best sensor technology might be dominated by a company whose camera technology, lens selection and format size offerings are not my favorites: I would like my favorite camera maker to be able to shop around for the best sensors.
By the way, which WA lenses are you referring to having problems with Sony sensors? Just some rangefinder ones used on NEX bodies, or also some SLR WA lenses?
Also, it does not bother me at all that Leica (like Olympus) outsources its EVF panels from an industry leader like Epson. That wheel does not need to be reinvented by Leica just for the sake of a "made in Europe" label.
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This grabbed my attention. I've never heard of "wide problems" with sony sensors. The 12-24 zoom lens is a very popular lens from Nikon. Wish I'd know more about this.
Eduardo
It's not a UWA problem per se, and it's not a Sony problem either. It's a problem due to the design of most digital microlenses, and specific to non-retrofocus wide angle lenses.
Most digital sensor microlenses are only efficient in collecting light over a moderate range of incident angles relative to the sensor plane. Any more than that, such as encountered near the edges of the image circle of non-retrofocus lenses, causes deep vignetting and colour shifts (since different wavelengths are refracted differently). Film cameras aren't affected by this, because film grains don't care about the incident angle of light. Retrofocus lenses get around this issue because they are essentially a normal lens with a 'wide converter' attached to the front - the angle of incident light hitting the sensor is derived from the angle of view of the main lens, not the angle of view of the wide converter in fromt of it. Leica uses a special microlens design to alleviate this problem, to some success. It's by no means perfect, though, otherwise non-retrofocus lenses such as the Voigtlander 12mm and 15mm lenses would be a lot more popular than they currently are.