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Author Topic: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)  (Read 87983 times)

MatthewCromer

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #120 on: April 15, 2012, 06:55:46 pm »

True, I was speaking of traditional SLR mount lenses / bodies.

Micro 4/3 is also good for consumers who also want to do video.
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MatthewCromer

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #121 on: April 15, 2012, 06:58:09 pm »

I actually vastly prefer the dSLTs over dSLRs for still photography, mostly because of the complete lack of vibration when taking pictures under any conditions.
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shadowblade

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #122 on: April 15, 2012, 10:20:39 pm »

The thing is, even if Canon released a 45MP full-frame body tomorrow, for landscape photographers, they'd still need a filter-capable UWA to match the Nikon 14-24. The upcoming Zeiss 15mm Distagon seemed to be a solution, but it now looks to have a fixed lens hood, making it incapable of taking a Lee filter system and using ND grads.
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MatthewCromer

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #123 on: April 15, 2012, 10:40:04 pm »

One can always just shoot two frames instead of using ND grads.  I prefer this approach, actually.
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shadowblade

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #124 on: April 15, 2012, 10:44:28 pm »

One can always just shoot two frames instead of using ND grads.  I prefer this approach, actually.

Only if there are no moving elements in the scene.

A light breeze that causes leaves to flutter or long grass to sway is more than enough to throw off this method - particularly when shooting at high resolution, where the individual leaves or stalks of grass are more apparent.
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macgupta

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Re: Why is more than 22MP useful, but not in 36x24mm format?
« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2012, 12:47:21 pm »

Here is a graph of resolution of the D3 and D3x as a function of aperture with a typical lens (from a post at DPReview, taken from DxO data, IIRC):



Here is an image from Roger Cicala's blog on lensrentals.com
(http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/d-resolution-tests )



This graph is different from the one above. It seems to show that the Zeiss 100mm peaks in center resolution at f/4 for the D800, at f/5.6 for the D700.  The higher pixel count sensor does always outresolve the lower pixel count one, however the aperture where diffraction starts limiting resolution can be different.
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CptZar

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #126 on: April 20, 2012, 02:05:54 pm »

The thing is, even if Canon released a 45MP full-frame body tomorrow, for landscape photographers, they'd still need a filter-capable UWA to match the Nikon 14-24. The upcoming Zeiss 15mm Distagon seemed to be a solution, but it now looks to have a fixed lens hood, making it incapable of taking a Lee filter system and using ND grads.

Maybe. But they have a 17mm TS lens which is excellent. And I would rather use a perspective control lens, to avoid diverging or converging trees etc. As for the filter, I guess I am fine to use exposure blending in this case.

shadowblade

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2012, 06:32:34 pm »

Maybe. But they have a 17mm TS lens which is excellent. And I would rather use a perspective control lens, to avoid diverging or converging trees etc. As for the filter, I guess I am fine to use exposure blending in this case.

So would I. I regularly stitch shifted panoramas from the TS-E 24L, giving me the horizontal angle of view of a 14.4mm regular lens, or from the tS-E 17L, giving a horizontal angle of view of a 10.2mm regular lens. I'd *love* a 14mm tilt-shift lens for those occasions where I can 't, or don't want to, make a shifted panorama. And, if not a 14mm tilt-shift lens, I'd happily take an ultra-sharp 14mm regular lens (as an ex-617 filter, I regularly crop to the 1:3 format anyway, and could replicate an upward shift effect by cropping out the bottom of the 3:2 frame).
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Ray

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Re: Why is more than 22MP useful, but not in 36x24mm format?
« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2012, 10:12:53 pm »

Here is an image from Roger Cicala's blog on lensrentals.com
(http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/d-resolution-tests )



This graph is different from the one above. It seems to show that the Zeiss 100mm peaks in center resolution at f/4 for the D800, at f/5.6 for the D700.  The higher pixel count sensor does always outresolve the lower pixel count one, however the aperture where diffraction starts limiting resolution can be different.

This graph does not make complete sense to me. I can understand that all the cameras tested would begin to show a fall-off in resolution at the next aperture down from the sharpest, which in this case appears to be F5.6, F4 being the sharpest aperture.

But I can't understand how a camera like the D700, and the 5D2 to a lesser extent, could produce a significantly sharper result one stop down from the sharpest aperture, unless there are focussing and/or compatibility problems.

A misfocussing of the D700 is the first likely cause that springs to mind. If that's not the cause, then perhaps there's an issue with the adapter used, or perhaps a different copy of the same model of lens was used.


Or perhaps the lens has been optimised for sharpest results at F4 only when used with a particular model of camera, and such optimisation just happens to also work with the D800 and 5D3, but not with the D700 and 5D2.
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EgillBjarki

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #129 on: April 21, 2012, 12:23:34 am »

I think Nikon has the edge like it is right now. That is good, Canon has been in a comfortable place in the past, with Nikon playing catchup. Right now the tables have turned, this should push Canon to do better in the future.

I would love to have D800 and D800E with some good prime lenses. Right now I have 5D Mark III and Mark II with what I consider to be the best lens combo for my needs.

Who is to say that Canon is developing a 45MP DSLR with low ISO performance not yet seen in a DSLR? That body with 5DIII would be a perfect setup.

But right now, it looks like it's Canon's turn to catchup...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #130 on: April 21, 2012, 01:48:09 am »

Hi,

There are three areas where Canon may be lagging behind the competition

1) DR, it seems that Canon has noisy readout electronics and they made zero progress from the 5DII to 5DIII
2) Megapixels. Decreasing pixel size has a negative effect on DR.
3) Wide angle zooms

Now, to put things in perspective. Plenty of people shoot Canon and few complain about the DR disadvantage Canon has. Nikon, Pentax and Sony share sensor technology and those sensors can go something like three stops deeper in the shadows than Canon at base ISO. That advantage disappears at higher ISO.

Regarding megapixels Canon has the 7D at 18 MP. Canon could very well put the same pixel density on a full frame sensor and that would be around 46MP, and it is my understanding that the 7D has very decent image quality but with the Canon typical disadvantage in DR. Nikon and Sony could similarly deploy the 24MP NEX-7 sensor design  in a full frame body, that would come in at 54MP.

Marc McCalmont is a frequent poster on this forums and he found that the Pentax K5 he got as walkaround camera did have a significant advantage in DR. Now he has upgraded to Phase One IQ180 and the Nikon D800E and still holding on to the Pentax K5. Got the impression that he now has the DR that he needs on all cameras.

I'm shooting Sony, and it seems that Nikon and Pentax pull more DR from the Sony sensors they use than Sony self. I have seldom the need for extended DR and I'm actually quite impressed by the image quality offered by Canon.

Best regards
Erik






I think Nikon has the edge like it is right now. That is good, Canon has been in a comfortable place in the past, with Nikon playing catchup. Right now the tables have turned, this should push Canon to do better in the future.

I would love to have D800 and D800E with some good prime lenses. Right now I have 5D Mark III and Mark II with what I consider to be the best lens combo for my needs.

Who is to say that Canon is developing a 45MP DSLR with low ISO performance not yet seen in a DSLR? That body with 5DIII would be a perfect setup.

But right now, it looks like it's Canon's turn to catchup...
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Erik Kaffehr
 

hjulenissen

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2012, 08:45:45 am »

Hi,

There are three areas where Canon may be lagging behind the competition

1) DR, it seems that Canon has noisy readout electronics and they made zero progress from the 5DII to 5DIII
2) Megapixels. Decreasing pixel size has a negative effect on DR.
If the disappointing DR at base ISO offered by Canon is due to readout noise, while the DR for all manufacturers converge at higher ISO dut to being shot-noise limited, is it likely that the subjective quality of images at large ISO may be different due to read-out noise being larger for Canon (but overpowered by shot-noise in simple DR measurements)?

-h
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Keith Reeder

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2012, 09:14:34 am »

2) Megapixels. Decreasing pixel size has a negative effect on DR.

I know that was the received wisdom, but the 16 mp sensor in the D7000/Pentax K-5/Sony A 580(?) has the best DR of any APS-C sensor out there, and much better than the lower density/larger pixeled sensors that precede it...
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Keith Reeder
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BJL

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Higher DR not the same as lower noise in prints
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2012, 10:23:35 am »

, is it likely that the subjective quality of images at large ISO may be different due to read-out noise being larger for Canon (but overpowered by shot-noise in simple DR measurements)?
An excellent thought: a sensor with photosites of higher well capacity but higher dark noise levels in electron counts can have lower engineering dynamic range, due to worse SNR in very dimly lit parts of the scene, but also have a better SNR in better lit parts of the scene, where photon shot noise dominates, and somtue SNR is the square root of the photo-electon count.

Indeed, in my rough comparison of two hypothetical sensors
A. one with well capacity 50,000 and no read noise at all
B. one with well capacity of 100,000 and read noise of 10e-
the former has greater DR (50,000:1 vs 10,000:1?)
But the latter a better SRN at any photosite getting within eight stops of full exposure.
For example, eight stops down, so with signals of about 100 and 200 respectively, sensor A has a SNR of 10, while sensor B has a SNR of 200/sqrt(300) or about 11.5, so the cross-over point is a bit more than eight stops down from maximum. This suggests that the sensor of lesser DR will if anything look better for noise effects on any straight print done with correct exposure at base ISO speed, because anything more than about seven stops darker than full well capacity is printed totally black, making the noise levels the invisible.

Of course, this is just yet another argument for using more refined measures of photographically relevant noise effects, not ”stops above the level where SNR=1". One idea, somewhatvendorsed by the ISO standard 12232, is measuring stops down to SNR levels of 40:1 (for excellent IQ) and 10:1 (for barely acceptable). On such measures, the bigger, noisier photosites of sensor B win slightly.


P. S. I originally constructed an example like this to illustrate why a medium format back with the current read noise disadvantage of CCDs can still in a range of practical situations have less visible noise, finer tonal gradations and such than even a "perfect" sensor in a format like 36x24mm, a bit less half the size and about half the electron well capacity (at equal pixel count) You just need to give the bigger sensor enough light to make use of its greater photon counting capacity, and avoid extemes of contrast compression in printing.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 10:56:14 am by BJL »
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Chris_Brown

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2012, 10:32:18 am »

2) Megapixels. Decreasing pixel size has a negative effect on DR.

The 1Dx has larger photosites, and with it, hopefully a better DR. I'm looking forward to real world tests of this new sensor. We'll find out if the marketing info matches real-world results.
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BJL

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2012, 10:54:39 am »

The 1Dx has larger photosites, and with it, hopefully a better DR. I'm looking forward to real world tests of this new sensor. We'll find out if the marketing info matches real-world results.
Having fewer, larger photosites on a sensor of the same size might increase the "engineering dynamic range", but is of little or no practical value in comparisons of images viewed at equal size. The Dx0 "print quality" measurements, adjusted for the effects of viewing at equal print size, illustrate this nicely, especially if you switch back and forth between "print" and "screen". In brief: with a sensor having more, smaller photosites, downsampling to a lower pixel count increases the per pixel DR, back to very much what you would get by having fewer, bigger photosites to start with.

Meanwhile, if the downsampling is done right, you can end up with less aliasing artifacts, less jaggies, etc.

Also, downsampling to the same pixel count leaves you with more resolution, so the downsampling could go to a somewhat lower pixel count for more noise reduction and DR improvement. This is because, for example, an 18MP file in a RGB format like JPEG or TIFF can hold more resolution information about each color than a 20MP raw file from a sensor with Bayer CFA: it has 20 million values for each of the three colors, as opposed to 10 million green and 5 million for each of read and blue.
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DiaAzul

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Re: Higher DR not the same as lower noise in prints
« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2012, 11:32:05 am »

An excellent thought: a sensor with photosites of higher well capacity but higher dark noise levels in electron counts can have lower engineering dynamic range, due to worse SNR in very dimly lit parts of the scene, but also have a better SNR in better lit parts of the scene, where photon shot noise dominates, and somtue SNR is the square root of the photo-electon count.

An excellent, though very technical point - which seems to throw some questions on DxO's methodology (or at least what they think they are measuring).

If I understand correctly, the DxO methodology assumes that noise is constant irrespective of signal strength. Therefore, comparing the maximum signal level that can be recorded by the sensor on a brightly illuminated pixel relative to the minimal signal level that can be distinguished from noise on a darkly illuminated pixel would give the signal to noise ratio. However, what you seem to point out is that noise levels rise as signal levels rise and the DxO measurement cannot, therefore, give a true signal to noise measurement? (signal to noise levels will varying with illumination and, therefore, there will be an illumination where SNR is maximum and minimum dependent upon which type of noise dominates).

However, does it actually matter? What is more important a true measure of signal to noise, or the maximum difference between an observable clean bright patch and clean dark patch in an image?
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David Plummer    http://photo.tanzo.org/

BJL

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Re: Higher DR not the same as lower noise in prints
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2012, 11:47:31 am »

An excellent, though very technical point - which seems to throw some questions on DxO's methodology (or at least what they think they are measuring)

... What is more important a true measure of signal to noise, or the maximum difference between an observable clean bright patch and clean dark patch in an image?
In defense of Dx0, I think the problem instead is that many people misinterpret the DR measure, and put too much emphasis on it while ignoring other possibly more informative measurements also provided by DX0. In particular, the measure of SNR at 18% is more relevant to visible noise at the midtones, and probably a good indication of noise levels anywhere near the midtones, including perhaps all relevant tonal levels in a "normal" print where deep shadows have not been lifted substantially. Also, the Tonal Range seems like a reasonable indication of the handling of fine tonal gradations away from the extreme deep shadows.

Looking at those other two measures, the quick summary is that:
1. the 5D3 improves significantly over the 5D2 at all exposure index ("ISO speed") settings
2. the 5D3 and D800 are very close, in the resolution-corrected "print" comparisons.
3. In per pixel "screen" comparisons, then D800 about matches the 5D2 and trails the 5D3.

The closeness  in item 2 makes me think in fact that these measures are now mostly dominated by the fundamental physics of photon shot noise.

See Dx0 comparisons
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 11:56:48 am by BJL »
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Chris_Brown

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Re: Higher DR not the same as lower noise in prints
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2012, 12:17:18 pm »

. . . therefore, there will be an illumination where SNR is maximum and minimum dependent upon which type of noise dominates . . . However, does it actually matter?

Only if it's utilized in the photographic process.
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Gel

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Re: Has Canon fallen hopelessly behind? (cross-posted)
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2012, 12:57:20 pm »

You know, the only time I've ever felt the need to pull the shadows a couple of stops is when I maxed out my 1Ds3 at ISO3200.

Other than that I correctly exposed the image and knew how to use my equipment.
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