Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?

[BarbaraArmstrong]

Zoran, you called my attention to your test print.  The fact that you liked the print result when printing in Auto mode is not the test.  As Jeff Schewe said earlier, you don't want to print in Auto; you should be using established color management methods.  To make sure you aren't having a problem with what the monitor is showing you (remember, the monitor is your eyes on the digital file), you should start with a calibrated monitor.  Then, in Photoshop, set the proper printer/paper ICC profile, set Photoshop to manage colors, and disable any color management by the printer.  Also in the printer dialogue, set the appropriate paper type.  I didn't see any problems with the screen shot you showed., so I'm not sure where your problem is.  Did you earlier mention over-inkage on the paper?  That is indeed a sign of something wrong in the print settings (or printing on the wrong side of the paper?) --Moisten a finger with your tongue and touch to a corner of the paper.  Print on the sticky side of the paper; that's the side with the inkjet-receptive coating.  Also, be willing to address the monitor if you want to get the best print results from your photography.  The two big areas you're interested in with the monitor are color representation and brightness.  Start by adjusting the brightness downward when you're certain your print settings are correct and your prints are still too dark.  Then a calibration would bring color representation in line if you're having trouble with that. --Barbara
 

[Johnny_Boy]

...
It doesn't make sense to me why photo you told me to use prints exactly same as on monitor when photo I took prints darker than on monitor.

Can you post the photo that you took here? What camera did you use to take the picture and are you shooting it as JPEG sRGB or RAW AdobeRGB?

[ZoranC]

well, except to perhaps reiterate your expectations seem completely outside of reality, so all the other talk really is irrelevant.  Everyone is attacking this as a color management issue, bottom line it isn't.

You are free to continue down the road of being aggressive while not offering anything but riddle me this for a second: If this was not a color management issue how do you explain that test file I was given printed just fine as displayed while shot I have taken didn't when only difference between two is that first one has no color management info in it?

[ZoranC]

That's probably true.  Being able to print an image that exactly duplicates a photographed subject is an interesting concept though.  Sound like technology Wile E. Coyote would be very interested in.  Numerous Potential Road Runner tricking applications.

Sounds to me your post is yet another typical 'net "I have nothing to contribute but I will be a wise ... instead".

[ZoranC]

Zoran, you called my attention to your test print.  The fact that you liked the print result when printing in Auto mode is not the test.  As Jeff Schewe said earlier, you don't want to print in Auto; you should be using established color management methods.  To make sure you aren't having a problem with what the monitor is showing you (remember, the monitor is your eyes on the digital file), you should start with a calibrated monitor. Then, in Photoshop, set the proper printer/paper ICC profile, set Photoshop to manage colors, and disable any color management by the printer.  Also in the printer dialogue, set the appropriate paper type.

Barbara, shot that printed exactly as displayed is one I was given link to earlier and that one doesn't have color info in it. Shots I am having problem with are ones that do have color info in them. I have followed instructions on how to correctly print using Lightroom to the last letter and there wasn't any improvement.

That is indeed a sign of something wrong in the print settings (or printing on the wrong side of the paper?) --Moisten a finger with your tongue and touch to a corner of the paper.  Print on the sticky side of the paper; that's the side with the inkjet-receptive coating.

I am printing on correct sides of papers. On some Epson papers back side is clearly marked and on others Epson attaches instructions how to identofy correct side.

[ZoranC]

Here is a screen shot of the printer settings i would use in photoshop elements (screen shot attached):

And use these driver settings:

Thank you, but in the meantime I got a copy of LR 3, followed earlier instructions to last letter and no improvement.

[ZoranC]

Did you earlier mention over-inkage on the paper?

Yes, I mentioned there is a chance there might be over-inkage. As matte paper comes out it is kinda, how to describe it, curved up in the middle. Once it dries it is flat again.

[Johnny_Boy]

You are free to continue down the road of being aggressive while not offering anything but riddle me this for a second: If this was not a color management issue how do you explain that test file I was given printed just fine as displayed while shot I have taken didn't when only difference between two is that first one has no color management info in it?

Zoran,

Wayne Fox, Slobodan and I all pointed this out to you saying it is important, and you are ignoring it. Now you are saying you have color management issue. At the beginning of this thread, you said you want your print to match the realty (the scene right in front of you).

What we are telling you is that thinking is illogical because the camera metering system will try to balance out to 18% neutral gray, so if you take a picture of your room with almost no light vs. very bright light will end up looking pretty similar. This has been mentioned to you multiple times, but you are not seeing it. Keep saying all my cameras that I used in the past exposed it fine does not mean you understand the metering system.

So, at the end of the day, even if you solve the color management issue, you will still not be able to match the print to a reality you see, if you are just using the auto metering set at 0 EV. Not possible unless the room just happens to be lighted up correctly at 18% gray neutral tone.


 

[ZoranC]

Zoran,

Wayne Fox, Slobodan and I all pointed this out to you saying it is important, and you are ignoring it. Now you are saying you have color management issue. At the beginning of this thread, you said you want your print to match the realty (the scene right in front of you).

What we are telling you is that thinking is illogical because the camera metering system will try to balance out to 18% neutral gray, so if you take a picture of your room with almost no light vs. very bright light will end up looking pretty similar. This has been mentioned to you multiple times, but you are not seeing it. Keep saying all my cameras that I used in the past exposed it fine does not mean you understand the metering system.

So, at the end of the day, even if you solve the color management issue, you will still not be able to match the print to a reality you see, if you are just using the auto metering set at 0 EV. Not possible unless the room just happens to be lighted up correctly at 18% gray neutral tone.

Johnny_Boy, I hear what you are saying but let me ask you one straightforward question: If shot link to I was provided earlier by you printed almost exactly as displayed is it logical to expect shot I have taken should then also print almost exactly as displayed?

[Johnny_Boy]

Johnny_Boy, I hear what you are saying but let me ask you one straightforward question: If shot link to I was provided earlier by you printed almost exactly as displayed is it logical to expect shot I have taken should then also print almost exactly as displayed?

Yes and no.

If you asked, can the PRINT match what I see on the SCREEN? The answer is YES, as you have noticed from the test file that I pointed out to you.
If you asked, can the PRINT match what my eyes are seeing right in front me (REALTY)? The answer is mostly NO, since you are using auto metering exposure setting which will try to render the scene neutral. So your print might look brighter than reality or darker than reality, depends on how the room is lit up.

For example, see the images below. The first set of images represents the "REALITY". If you take individual pictures of the scene in the first set of images and using auto exposure and metering, you will end up with the second set of images (all ends up being 18% gray).

So when you are saying hey, I took a picture of my room, using auto metering set at 0EV, and then I printed it and it looks dark, it doesn't make any sense, since that is by design. So stop asking that question and just say I want what I see on my monitor to match the print. Then it just becomes the color management issue.

[ZoranC]

Yes and no.

If you asked, can the PRINT match what I see on the SCREEN? The answer is YES, as you have noticed from the test file that I pointed out to you.
If you asked, can the PRINT match what my eyes are seeing right in front me (REALTY)? The answer is mostly NO, since you are using auto metering exposure setting which will try to render the scene neutral. So your print might look brighter than reality or darker than reality, depends on how the room is lit up.

I am not asking neither first nor second, please try to forget second for a moment and focus on following:

If print of shot you sent me printed practically exactly as displayed is it logical to expect some other shot from somewhere else will print practically exactly as displayed?

[Johnny_Boy]

YES.

Assuming all the color management stuff is set correctly and the monitor is calibrated correctly and etc,  and assuming you are lighting your print at the right light level, your PRINT should come out very close to what you are seeing on the MONITOR.

Sorry I thought you were asking about question #2 because in your initial post you said "I can only describe as prints being darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing. If I take a photo of my work area and print it it ends up darker than what I am seeing around me."

What you should have said is my print is darker than what I see on my monitor? 

[ZoranC]

YES.

Assuming all the color management stuff is set correctly and the monitor is calibrated correctly and etc,  and assuming you are lighting your print at the right light level, your PRINT should come out very close to what you are seeing on the MONITOR.

Sorry I thought you were asking about question #2 because in your initial post you said "I can only describe as prints being darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing. If I take a photo of my work area and print it it ends up darker than what I am seeing around me."

What you should have said is my print is darker than what I see on my monitor? 

What I am trying to point out to you is that print you sent me (please see one of my earlier posts) printed exactly as displayed when color management was done by printer, and didn't print correctly when management was done by application, and that shots I have taken continue not being printed as displayed regardless of who manages the color.

[Farmer]

Instead of telling us that you're following the instructions correctly to print in LR4, please POST UP details and screen shots of all your settings, including the driver settings, so we can check.

[Farmer]

What I am trying to point out to you is that print you sent me (please see one of my earlier posts) printed exactly as displayed when color management was done by printer, and didn't print correctly when management was done by application, and that shots I have taken continue not being printed as displayed regardless of who manages the color.

Which means that your workflow is wrong somewhere.  Please post screen shots of ALL your LR4 settings and ALL your driver settings and explain all the steps you are taking.  Somewhere in there, we will discover the flaw and be able to fix your problem.

Don't worry about trying to riddle why this or that did or did not happen - post the workflow.

[ZoranC]

Instead of telling us that you're following the instructions correctly to print in LR4, please POST UP details and screen shots of all your settings, including the driver settings, so we can check.

You can't trust poster that he did when he says so, you have to tell him you don't trust him and treat him like a little child?

[Johnny_Boy]

Zoran, I get your point. What camera are you using are you shooting it RAW or JPEG on sRGB or AdobeRGB? I wonder if you have set it to AdobeRGB, but your printer is expecting sRGB?

Download some other random photos from the net and print it. Do they print out well like the last one?

[ZoranC]

Which means that your workflow is wrong somewhere.  Please post screen shots of ALL your LR4 settings and ALL your driver settings and explain all the steps you are taking.  Somewhere in there, we will discover the flaw and be able to fix your problem.

Don't worry about trying to riddle why this or that did or did not happen - post the workflow.

See you can't trust me when I say I did, you have to treat me as if I am little child that can't be trusted when he said he did, while you are not even paying attention to what I said, otherwise you would have noticed I said LR 3, not LR 4.

[ZoranC]

Zoran, I get your point. What camera are you using are you shooting it RAW or JPEG on sRGB or AdobeRGB? I wonder if you have set it to AdobeRGB, but your printer is expecting sRGB?

Download some other random photos from the net and print it. Do they print out well like the last one?

One I used for particular shot in question is Olympus EP3. I shoot RAW+JPG, and use that JPG. Camera is set to sRGB. Monitor is HP LP3065.

[Johnny_Boy]

Thanks. Can you post the digital file in question as well as a photo of the print out? Can you attach them to the thread? That will help us a lot on what is going on.

(Put the problematic dark print next to some kind of reference print, like that color test print that came out well, and take picture of both together, so we can judge correctly)