Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 01:55:22 pm

Title: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 01:55:22 pm
I am having a problem with Epson 3880 that I can only describe as prints being darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing. If I take a photo of my work area and print it it ends up darker than what I am seeing around me. It takes print of photo taken +1 EV exposure to approximately match what I actually see.

What is going on and how to address it?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: AFairley on March 07, 2012, 01:57:39 pm
How does the print look compared to what you see on your monitor?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 02:02:06 pm
How does the print look compared to what you see on your monitor?
Also much darker. Monitor is close enough to matching reality.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 02:02:58 pm
I am having a problem with Epson 3880 that I can only describe as prints being darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing.

Read this and get back to us...Why Are My Prints Too Dark? (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 02:30:52 pm
Read this and get back to us...Why Are My Prints Too Dark? (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml)

That article is talking about calibrating monitor. I know this kind of reply is automatic first reaction to any post that includes words "print too dark" but please notice I am not processing these pictures at all nor involving monitor into judgement are they too dark. I am comparing print of the room in front of me to the room in front of me itself. Print is much darker than room itself. I am not trying screend and print to match. I am trying to find why printer is not matching reality.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: chichornio on March 07, 2012, 02:38:02 pm
I would check the paper icc profile. Maybe your printer is inyecting more ink than it should.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 02:42:20 pm
... I am comparing print of the room in front of me to the room in front of me itself. Print is much darker than room itself. I am not trying screend and print to match. I am trying to find why printer is not matching reality.

Zorane, one thing that comes to mind is that your camera is underexposing the scene? Hence the +1 EV exposure compensation you mentioned in your first post.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 02:44:50 pm
I would check the paper icc profile. Maybe your printer is inyecting more ink than it should.

Paper is Epson Ultra Presentation Matte (I am using original Epson inks) and selecting profile with exactly same name. I also get same problem (print darker than reality) with other Epson papers and their matching profiles.

So I doubt it is profile.

_BUT_ it could be printer injecting more ink than it should because this matte paper comes out "warped" the way wet paper looks and once some time passes it is back to flat.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 02:47:31 pm
I know this kind of reply is automatic first reaction to any post that includes words "print too dark" but please notice I am not processing these pictures at all nor involving monitor into judgement are they too dark.

Well, you are processing them somehow...don't know too many cameras that can print directly from the camera. (there are some...but even then the captures would get processed).

So, do you have a profiled display? How are you evaluating the image? What application? How are you printing?

From the sound of it, you're simply under exposing the scene in camera.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 02:52:03 pm
Zorane, one thing that comes to mind is that your camera is underexposing the scene? Hence the +1 EV exposure compensation you mentioned in your first post.

Slobodane, that is one of very first things I checked so I took series of exposures from 0EV to 1EV and 0EV looked exposed correctly when I checked it on monitor and checked it's histogram. 1EV was looking overexposed both on monitor and histogram wise. Also shots I have taken with different cameras before all look too dark when printed, and those shots are all SOOC. So that makes me believe it is not the exposure issue unless every single camera I had was underexposing.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 02:56:21 pm
Well, you are processing them somehow...don't know too many cameras that can print directly from the camera. (there are some...but even then the captures would get processed).

So, do you have a profiled display? How are you evaluating the image? What application? How are you printing?

From the sound of it, you're simply under exposing the scene in camera.

Unless every single camera I used over the years has been consistently underexposing by at least a stop it's not the correctness of exposure that is in question because every single shot I tried to print is coming out too dark.

I have tried printing from more than one applcation. Photoshop Elements causes darkest prints. They are VERY dark. Prints from QPrint are better than from Elements but are still too dark. Prints from QuickView match ones from QPrint. Prints I have started this thread about are ones done by QPrint/QuickView.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: chichornio on March 07, 2012, 03:18:08 pm
I have tried printing from more than one applcation. Photoshop Elements causes darkest prints. They are VERY dark. Prints from QPrint are better than from Elements but are still too dark. Prints from QuickView match ones from QPrint. Prints I have started this thread about are ones done by QPrint/QuickView.

I would try LR4 beta with soft proofing on. Works perfect for me, loading the paper profile and using perceptual rendering. Check the histogram (the output, not the monitor). Good luck!
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 03:19:15 pm
... 1EV was looking overexposed both on monitor and histogram wise...

Just speculating further: if the monitor is too bright, then a camera underexposure would be "corrected" and look ok. In my humble opinion, histogram can not be used to judge a "correct" exposure, just if there are clippings on either side (or both). Also, camera LCD screen can be too bright too.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 03:19:19 pm
...that is one of very first things I checked so I took series of exposures from 0EV to 1EV and 0EV looked exposed correctly when I checked it on monitor and checked it's histogram. 1EV was looking overexposed both on monitor and histogram wise.

Ah..so we get back to the display being too bright causing your prints to look too dark. Unless you correctly calibrate and profile your display, then you will prolly never get prints to match your display–which is what you want, right? To be able to evaluate your image on the display and have your prints have the proper tonality?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 03:24:00 pm
Just speculating further: if the monitor is too bright, then a camera underexposure would be "corrected" and look ok. In my humble opinion, histogram can not be used to judge a "correct" exposure, just if there are clippings on either side (or both). Also, camera LCD screen can be too bright too.

Once again, if this was a simple underexposure from single camera I would not be having number of shots taken over number of years with number of different cameras in all possible metering modes _ALL_ ending up underexposed.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: chichornio on March 07, 2012, 03:25:50 pm
Ah..so we get back to the display being too bright causing your prints to look too dark. Unless you correctly calibrate and profile your display, then you will prolly never get prints to match your display–which is what you want, right? To be able to evaluate your image on the display and have your prints have the proper tonality?

You are right, but sometimes this in not the only solution. I´m using the z3200ps 44", and only after re-profiling the paper (specially cotton matte paper, or high contrast papers like Canson Platine Fibre Rag) and telling the printer to inkject less ink, I would get a decent match with my monitor (and not blocked black areas, in the case of black and white prints)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 03:29:10 pm
Unless you correctly calibrate and profile your display, then you will prolly never get prints to match your display–which is what you want, right? To be able to evaluate your image on the display and have your prints have the proper tonality?

I don't know how I can say this more clearly than I already had but I will try: No, shot is not underexposed and no, I am not using monitor as my reference point for judging, I am comparing print to scene itself.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Randy Carone on March 07, 2012, 03:38:31 pm
Then the only thing left to do is to adjust your image until you are happy with the prints. If you are lucky, the same adjustment may work on a group of images if they are all the same 'darkness' to which you object. The print is real, so you need to adjust until it matches what you see in the 'real world' with your eyes. Personally, I'd adjust my monitor until it matches your prints, so at least what you see on your monitor is what you will get out of your printer.

I hate to belabor this point, because you have made it quite clear that you are using a calibrated monitor. When I bought my HP 24" monitor I had to take the 'brightness' from 400 cd/m2 to 120 cd/m2 before it was fully calibrated. Colors were fine but brightness was crazy bright. My wife complains that the monitor is too dark. Oh well, that's the way it is, "use the laptop" is my response.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 03:44:23 pm
It is possible that you are double profiling your photograph. That will usually make a dark print.
Actually, double color management makes lighter more red/magenta prints. Prints that are dark and green come from no color management...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 03:46:11 pm
I don't know how I can say this more clearly than I already had but I will try: No, shot is not underexposed and no, I am not using monitor as my reference point for judging, I am comparing print to scene itself.

Well, in the post above you said: "that is one of very first things I checked so I took series of exposures from 0EV to 1EV and 0EV looked exposed correctly when I checked it on monitor and checked it's histogram. 1EV was looking overexposed both on monitor and histogram wise."

Seems to me you are saying the images look ok on your display but print too dark...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 04:03:54 pm
Then the only thing left to do is to adjust your image until you are happy with the prints.

Why I would have to adjust perfectly exposed photos just because printer is producing too dark results?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 04:05:32 pm
It is possible that you are double profiling your photograph. That will usually make a dark print.

How do I check that?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 04:06:44 pm
Actually, double color management makes lighter more red/magenta prints. Prints that are dark and green come from no color management...

If my Mode is set to Automatic is that no color management?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 04:10:28 pm
Well, in the post above you said: "that is one of very first things I checked so I took series of exposures from 0EV to 1EV and 0EV looked exposed correctly when I checked it on monitor and checked it's histogram. 1EV was looking overexposed both on monitor and histogram wise."

Seems to me you are saying the images look ok on your display but print too dark...

What I have multiple times said is that I compared prints to reality and that print from 0EV shot is much darker than reality.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 04:11:05 pm
And I would highly recommend the Camera to Print and Screen videos. You'll save so much heartache printing if you watch these.

Sharon

Thank you, I will definitely watch them.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 07, 2012, 04:41:33 pm
I don't think you understand how the camera metering works. Your reality will not match the print photographed by a camera. PERIOD.

You lit the room so bright until you are close to being blinded. Take a picture of the room with the camera, and print it. the room will come out at medium gray color. (much daker than reality)

Try the opposite. You turn off almost all the light in the room until you can barely see anything. Take a picture and print it, and it will come out at medium gray color. (much brighter than reality)

The question you should be asking is, why is my print not matching up my monitor? and not why is my print (or monitor) not matching the reality? It won't. Our camera auto metering is made to auto compensate to render everything "neutral" at 0EV.

Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 05:16:58 pm
... if the camera's histogram shows correct exposure...

Histograms do not show "correct" exposure.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Farmer on March 07, 2012, 05:17:31 pm
How do you compare the print to the scene?  If you're relying on memory, that's utterly useless :-)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 05:17:54 pm
Good point, Johnny Boy.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Randy Carone on March 07, 2012, 05:36:28 pm
Zoran,

In order for your prints to come out the way you want them to, you have to adjust them until you like the way the print looks. What am I missing? If a print comes out dark, YOU MUST ADJUST IT AND REPRINT IT UNTIL IT COMES OUT THE WAY YOU WANT. (not yelling - caps for emphasis). The process is called proofing, but you know that and I'm not trying to be glib. If every print came out the way we imagine they will in our minds, there'd be no reason for half the photo forums on the web. :)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: LenR on March 07, 2012, 05:42:08 pm
Wow.
That's all I have.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 05:49:41 pm
I don't think you understand how the camera metering works.

Let's try to stick to the topic. Instead of continuing to make up scenarios that suit the answer ("shot is underexposed") let's take my word that shot is correctly exposed and find out why printer is printing it darker than it should be. Almost everybody is quick to say to me that it must be because I don't know what I am doing, very few try to help.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 05:54:17 pm
How do you compare the print to the scene?  If you're relying on memory, that's utterly useless :-)
sigh ... As I said number of times before, 1. by comparing print of the room printer is in again room itself (that's obviously not a memory), and 2. by ending up with prints that look as if shot was done in evening when it was done in broad daylight (yeah, that is from memory but please don't tell me one can mistake Southern California daylight for evening).
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 05:57:23 pm
In order for your prints to come out the way you want them to, you have to adjust them until you like the way the print looks. What am I missing? If a print comes out dark, YOU MUST ADJUST IT AND REPRINT IT UNTIL IT COMES OUT THE WAY YOU WANT.

What you are missing is that print of middle of Southern California daylight shot should not be coming out of the box looking as if it is evening and needing lots of adjusting.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 05:58:30 pm
Wow.
That's all I have.

Anything actually helpful on topic that you have?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: neile on March 07, 2012, 05:59:43 pm
Zoran,

The issue you raise is one that I hear frequently from people doing their own prints. A perfectly exposed image (for whatever definition of "perfectly exposed" you want to use) at capture time is never going to look bright enough when printed. Printed images depend on reflected light to get their brightness. A monitor has blinding light being shoved through the display from behind. The real world has light being emitted directly from the light sources to help illuminate it. Paper doesn't. You *have* to make adjustments to your image before printing to make it look like what you want on paper and to make it match the Real World. That's just how printing works :)

I've got two blog entries that talk about this, one suggesting changing your monitor brightness to help approximate how things will look when printed, and the second on using histograms to get an idea for how far off you'll be. Hopefully you'll find them useful:

http://www.danecreek.com/blog/2010/02/17/monitor-brightness-and-dark-prints.html
http://www.danecreek.com/blog/2010/05/10/monitor-brightness-and-dark-prints-part-2.html

Neil
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: neile on March 07, 2012, 06:04:51 pm
I'll add that your comment on the first page of this thread, "Also much darker. Monitor is close enough to matching reality", leads me to believe you are actually seeing expected behaviour when going to print. As mentioned in my previous post, monitors have the benefit of their own light source to display your image, and from the factory monitors almost always set to blinding brightness levels because that looks damn good in stores and results in sales.

That setting makes them pretty darn useless as a tool for previewing how your image will look on paper. Paper is super fun, but sadly can't produce its own light source, and thus is inherently "darker" than what you see in the real world or on screen.

You'll need to make adjustments to your image to make them brighter overall before printing. There's no way around it. And honesetly, one full stop of exposure adjustment prior to printing doesn't seem completely out of line (depending on the paper you're using).

Neil
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 06:06:29 pm
Good point, Johnny Boy.

It is good point only if one is looking for problem that fits the solution. For this particular problem it is wortrhless.

Considering that almost nobody is willing to think this logically through and quite a few are insisting on random assumptions (I guess I never knew metering across all of my cameras over the years has been consistently severely underexposing) who can point me in direction of "correctly exposed" files I can use for test?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 06:17:29 pm
Zoran,

The issue you raise is one that I hear frequently from people doing their own prints. A perfectly exposed image (for whatever definition of "perfectly exposed" you want to use) at capture time is never going to look bright enough when printed. Printed images depend on reflected light to get their brightness. A monitor has blinding light being shoved through the display from behind. The real world has light being emitted directly from the light sources to help illuminate it. Paper doesn't. You *have* to make adjustments to your image before printing to make it look like what you want on paper and to make it match the Real World. That's just how printing works :)

I've got two blog entries that talk about this, one suggesting changing your monitor brightness to help approximate how things will look when printed, and the second on using histograms to get an idea for how far off you'll be. Hopefully you'll find them useful:

http://www.danecreek.com/blog/2010/02/17/monitor-brightness-and-dark-prints.html
http://www.danecreek.com/blog/2010/05/10/monitor-brightness-and-dark-prints-part-2.html

Neil


Neil thank you for your links but once again I am feeling I am not being heard. In your blog you talk about prints not matching what is displayed on monitor. Let's please stop focusing on monitor for a second and focus on exposure and print.

Do we or don't we agree that if I take a correctly exposed shot of objects against wall, immediately print that shot without any post processing on reasonably white/reflective paper (whatever is the right term, I hope you understand what I am trying to illustrate) and immediately put that print next to those same objects on same wall under same light I should expect that that print look close enough in brightness level to scene instead of being _significantly_ darker?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: neile on March 07, 2012, 06:24:57 pm
Let's please stop focusing on monitor for a second and focus on exposure and print.

I understand your frustration here, and I believe I commented on this apsect in my second post. Since you indicated earlier in the thread that your monitor is showing a resonable approximation of the Real World, it's reasonable to assume that a difference between your monitor and print is similar to a difference between the real world and your print.

Do we or don't we agree that if I take a correctly exposed shot of objects against wall, immediately print that shot without any post processing on reasonably white/reflective paper (whatever is the right term, I hope you understand what I am trying to illustrate) and immediately put that print next to those same objects on same wall under same light I should expect that that print look close enough in brightness level to scene instead of being _significantly_ darker?

I believe everyone in this thread is saying and agreeing that it will be significantly darker, and significantly could even be as much as one full stop (or more) of exposure adjustment required.

My second blog entry is probably most useful to take a look at and has nothing to do with monitors. Each histogram in that blog entry is from an image that one of my clients insisted was properly exposed and didn't need exposure adjustments prior to printing. In every case they were incorrect, and to make the print be something they were happy with they had to make exposure adjustments (including +1.25 in one situation!) to get a print that matched their expectation.

If I could invite you over to my office for a minute I could show you side-by-side comparisons of this. I have example prints of each of the images mentioned in the blog article printed 2-up on a single sheet of paper, one without the exposure adjustment and one with. It's a shocking difference and really makes the point clear.

You have to adjust your images. That's the joys of printing on paper.

Neil
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 06:26:06 pm
Zorane, I understand your frustration with our attempts at guessing what is going on, but we do not have much to work with in the first place. There are too many factors in play, and the only way to deal with them is 1. standardize them 2. eliminate them one by one. One factor of standardization is profiled monitor. I understand that you either have it profiled or you do not want to discuss the monitor impact. Fair enough. The next variable is your shot of your room. Without us being in the room there is no way we can know if the shot was exposed correctly (as per Johnny Boy's comments). One way to standardize it is to take the shot of the room with an 18 % gray card in it (where the card itself would be used for metering, not the whole scene). Or, instead of the 18 % gray card, use a hand-held incident exposure meter (instead of the one built in the camera). Then we can compare the print to the scene.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Damir on March 07, 2012, 06:36:35 pm
Hmm

I don't see anybody mention computer, OS, printing software, profiles ...

There are so many places something can go wrong.

Do you print directly from your camera??

What about your experinces with other type of printers and printing processes?? You have problem only with this particulare printer or also with others??
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 06:38:30 pm
... Do we or don't we agree that if I take a correctly exposed shot of objects against wall...

We need to define the "correctly" part. So far you are telling us that you judge that by 1. monitor and 2. histogram, and I argued that neither method is good enough.

The closest to the correct method is either an 18 % gray card or an incident light meter. I say the "closest" because either method's accuracy still depends on the angle at which you hold the card or the meter, but it should be pretty close.

But, since you insist on us thinking "outside the box" (or "outside your room" ;)), how about mismatch between the printer profile and operating system. Since I am thinking outside the box here, i.e., outside my own zone of comfort (or knowledge), consider this just a brain-storming: I remember at some point there was some incompatibility between Epson drivers and Mac OS.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 06:50:13 pm
Do we or don't we agree that if I take a correctly exposed shot of objects against wall, immediately print that shot without any post processing on reasonably white/reflective paper (whatever is the right term, I hope you understand what I am trying to illustrate) and immediately put that print next to those same objects on same wall under same light I should expect that that print look close enough in brightness level to scene instead of being _significantly_ darker?

No, you shouldn't...the problem is evaluating the exposure relies upon some sort of display (either the camera LCD or the computer display). Unless you have a calibrated and profiled display and are looking at the image in a color managed application, no, it doesn't surprise me at all the print looks dark.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 07, 2012, 06:53:18 pm
Let's try to stick to the topic. Instead of continuing to make up scenarios that suit the answer ("shot is underexposed") let's take my word that shot is correctly exposed and find out why printer is printing it darker than it should be. Almost everybody is quick to say to me that it must be because I don't know what I am doing, very few try to help.

[Yes, I know a lot of people here are telling you how to fix the monitor and print mismatch, and you are saying you don't want to hear about that, because you are trying to match the reality to the print. I get that. My response is relevant to that point]

Zoran, you did not understand what I am trying to say. It is important that you understand how the camera metering works, so please read it again. It is relevant to the topic. Your shot is correctly exposed to the fact that it matches the tonality of 18% neutral gray card. Your room is too bright, so your camera is under exposing it to make it look "neutral". Yes, your camera is underexposing it.

What I am trying to tell you is that the camera is not made to capture the scene AS IS. It adjust the metering, so you will have perfectly looking exposure curve, but that just means you are making whites to look gray and blacks to look gray. You print that, and it will come out gray!! Then you are asking, my room is white (or black), but the print came out gray, why is my print not matching reality when I didn't do anything, and the camera captured it perfectly at 0EV?

This is WRONG assumption.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: AFairley on March 07, 2012, 06:59:10 pm
No, you shouldn't...the problem is evaluating the exposure relies upon some sort of display (either the camera LCD or the computer display). Unless you have a calibrated and profiled display and are looking at the image in a color managed application, no, it doesn't surprise me at all the print looks dark.

+1
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 07:04:23 pm
Zorane, I understand your frustration with our attempts at guessing what is going on, but we do not have much to work with in the first place. There are too many factors in play, and the only way to deal with them is 1. standardize them 2. eliminate them one by one. One factor of standardization is profiled monitor. I understand that you either have it profiled or you do not want to discuss the monitor impact. Fair enough. The next variable is your shot of your room. Without us being in the room there is no way we can know if the shot was exposed correctly (as per Johnny Boy's comments). One way to standardize it is to take the shot of the room with an 18 % gray card in it (where the card itself would be used for metering, not the whole scene). Or, instead of the 18 % gray card, use a hand-held incident exposure meter (instead of the one built in the camera). Then we can compare the print to the scene.

Slobodane, there is one very simple reason why I don't want to discuss monitor impact: None of shots I used for test prints were postprocessed so it is not the monitor that is misleading me.

Reason why I don't believe it is metering either: I have repeatedly said all of these test prints have been taken with various cameras over the years, it is highly unlikely every single one of them was severely underexposed. If they were severely underexposed (by at least a stop) I would be able to push them stop+ to the right without blowing higlights. If I did that I guarantee you all of them would be blowing highlights all over the place.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 07:06:06 pm
Hmm

I don't see anybody mention computer, OS, printing software, profiles ...

There are so many places something can go wrong.

Do you print directly from your camera??

What about your experinces with other type of printers and printing processes?? You have problem only with this particulare printer or also with others??

This is first time I own the printer. Previously prints were made by others and they looked fine.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 07:13:38 pm
This is first time I own the printer. Previously prints were made by others and they looked fine.

So...you're just learning how to print.

And something is broken.

Unless you outline the EXACT STEPS you are taking to make the prints, we can't help you...it would be useful to know what printer, what apps and what OS. Also wether the images are raw images or jpegs or scans from film. There are a lot of places where something might lead to your problems. But you've spent most of your posts complaining about what you do or don't want to hear and very little giving us the info we need to help you.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 07:15:12 pm
Zoran, you did not understand what I am trying to say. It is important that you understand how the camera metering works, so please read it again. It is relevant to the topic. Your shot is correctly exposed to the fact that it matches the tonality of 18% neutral gray card. Your room is too bright, so your camera is under exposing it to make it look "neutral". Yes, your camera is underexposing it.

OK. For the sake of discussion let's say OK and let's say I will get 18% neutral gray card and/or incident light meter and make sure it is not metering that's causing it (it will be good to have these two anyway so that won't be money and time wasted). In the meantime can I be pointed in direction of some properly exposed printer test files to see how they turn out? Thank you!
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 07:21:11 pm
So...you're just learning how to print.

And something is broken.

Unless you outline the EXACT STEPS you are taking to make the prints, we can't help you...it would be useful to know what printer, what apps and what OS. Also wether the images are raw images or jpegs or scans from film. There are a lot of places where something might lead to your problems. But you've spent most of your posts complaining about what you do or don't want to hear and very little giving us the info we need to help you.

schew, my repeated feeling that you are not paying attention and are thus not helping but the opposite is coming from fact that you repeatedly ask me questions about things I already said. You say it would be useful to know what printer when in my very first post I said it's Epson 3880. You still imply I didn't say what apps when I did say it is number of apps, including Photoshop Elements, QPrint and QuickView. You say I didn't say are images from RAW or JPG or scans from film when I more than once said they are JPG straight out of camera.

You don't see what you are doing as something that is throwing wrenches in effort to get help and would be frustrating anybody?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 07:45:36 pm
... In the meantime can I be pointed in direction of some properly exposed printer test files to see how they turn out? Thank you!

If you google "printer test files" and then go to Images, you will see in the first two rows several standard test files.

However, not sure that is going to be of much help, as you will be comparing printouts from those files with their image on the monitor, thus bringing monitor calibration into equation again.

Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 07:47:44 pm
Slobodane, there is one very simple reason why I don't want to discuss monitor impact: None of shots I used for test prints were postprocessed so it is not the monitor that is misleading me...

Sorry to be a pest, but the logic here is wrong: whether files were post-processed or not has nothing to do with monitor calibration and thus one can not say with any certainty that the monitor is not misleading you. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but we can not be certain based on the above logic alone.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 07:55:55 pm
However, not sure that is going to be of much help, as you will be comparing printouts from those files with their image on the monitor, thus bringing monitor calibration into equation again.

I am aware that I should not be assuming monitor is good reference point so I will not be assuming it. I think looking just at print itself should give me an idea is printer OK because I doubt any print test file would be intentionally created excessively dark.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: JeffKohn on March 07, 2012, 08:02:38 pm
I just skimmed the 3 pages of this thread, but I didn't see much discussion of what lighting you're viewing the print in. If your office is anything like mine, the light levels are too low to critically evaluate a print unless you have a light booth to view it in. Don't rely on ambient light in a room where the lighting levels are set to allow for comfortably viewing a computer display. You need to make sure you have sufficient light to judge the prints.  If you don't have viewing booth, try direct daylight from north-facing window.

If you really want your prints to look correct in dim light, you either need to build that compensation into your profile, or else make the adjustment to the image before printing.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 07, 2012, 08:04:14 pm
schew, my repeated feeling that you are not paying attention and are thus not helping but the opposite is coming from fact that you repeatedly ask me questions about things I already said. You say it would be useful to know what printer when in my very first post I said it's Epson 3880. You still imply I didn't say what apps when I did say it is number of apps, including Photoshop Elements, QPrint and QuickView. You say I didn't say are images from RAW or JPG or scans from film when I more than once said they are JPG straight out of camera.

You don't see what you are doing as something that is throwing wrenches in effort to get help and would be frustrating anybody?

Jeff Schewe (sic] is the foremost expert on printing on this forum (or else), and I would not dismiss his attempts to help as "throwing wrenches" so easily.

What Jeff is saying when asking for EXACT STEPS is, sorry for the pun, exactly that: you need to describe a single chain of events, from capture to print. Throwing everything in the equation at the same time, e.g., various cameras, various applications, etc. is raising the number of possible combinations to an unacceptable level. This thread already has close to 60 posts, so forgive us for not searching through every post to find what you said. So, give us one single chain of events to work with: camera brand X, jpeg settings Y, color space in camera Z, application A, setting in printer driver B (even better, a screen shot of it), computer C, operating system D, OS version E, etc., etc. I might have missed some, or included something superfluous, but you get the point.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 08:06:29 pm
Sorry to be a pest, but the logic here is wrong: whether files were post-processed or not has nothing to do with monitor calibration and thus one can not say with any certainty that the monitor is not misleading you. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but we can not be certain based on the above logic alone.

What I am trying to say is that I didn't introduce variable of monitor's accuracy during postprocessing into equation of judging. Those files were not touched once uploaded so if there is any reason why prints are looking darker than they should be when compared to scene itself it is either due to exposure or due to printing process but not monitor, that result will not change whether I had best or worst or no monitor at all.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 07, 2012, 08:09:18 pm
In the meantime can I be pointed in direction of some properly exposed printer test files to see how they turn out? Thank you!
Try this file. Print it and tell us what you see.
http://webtransformer.com/calibrate/Calibration-Composite-ICC-sRGB-Full.jpg

My guess is that it will still print too dark. But then again, you don't have the babies and bikini model in front of you, so how would you know whether the reality is matching the print?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 08:10:01 pm
I just skimmed the 3 pages of this thread, but I didn't see much discussion of what lighting you're viewing the print in. If your office is anything like mine, the light levels are too low to critically evaluate a print unless you have a light booth to view it in. Don't rely on ambient light in a room where the lighting levels are set to allow for comfortably viewing a computer display. You need to make sure you have sufficient light to judge the prints.  If you don't have viewing booth, try direct daylight from north-facing window.

If you really want your prints to look correct in dim light, you either need to build that compensation into your profile, or else make the adjustment to the image before printing.

Thank you for bringing that topic up. I have judged print by first putting it next to objects shot was of (same light conditions as that was just minutes after I took shot) and then by examining it under direct daylight.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 08:14:39 pm
Jeff Schewe (sic] is the foremost expert on printing on this forum (or else), and I would not dismiss his attempts to help as "throwing wrenches" so easily.

What Jeff is saying when asking for EXACT STEPS is, sorry for the pun, exactly that: you need to describe a single chain of events, from capture to print. Throwing everything in the equation at the same time, e.g., various cameras, various applications, etc. is raising the number of possible combinations to an unacceptable level. This thread already has close to 60 posts, so forgive us for not searching through every post to find what you said. So, give us one single chain of events to work with: camera brand X, jpeg settings Y, color space in camera Z, application A, setting in printer driver B (even better, a screen shot of it), computer C, operating system D, OS version E, etc., etc. I might have missed some, or included something superfluous, but you get the point.

I was not commenting on Jeff's technical competency. What I was pointing out is why I feel that I am being spun in circles.

BTW, I do not see why camera and JPG settings would matter when result is consistently same across all of them regardless of what they are.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 08:18:20 pm
Try this file. Print it and tell us what you see.
http://webtransformer.com/calibrate/Calibration-Composite-ICC-sRGB-Full.jpg

My guess is that it will still print too dark. But then again, you don't have the babies and bikini model in front of you, so how would you know whether the reality is matching the print?

I will let you know exact answer once I had a chance to print it and examine it. In the meantime my guess is if shot of model taken on the beach starts looking as if it is taken at midnight.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 08:41:30 pm
I was not commenting on Jeff's technical competency. What I was pointing out is why I feel that I am being spun in circles.

Yeah, you're right...it's become increasingly difficult to keep track of what info you've produced...ok, you have a new 3880. I presume you are printing on Windows (I presume because you've not stated and it make a difference). You've indicated you've tried printing from Elements (what version?) and "QPrint/QuickView" and I have no idea what those are and whether or not they are color managed...

In terms of Elements, in the print module, there should be a way of selecting the correct printer/paper profile. You've not indicated (have you?) what profile is selected. Assuming a Window environment, what are your settings in the 3880 Print Properties? Do you have is set to Off (no color management)?

Since you invested on a good printer to make prints, I would suggest getting more mainstream software which is a higher level than Elements. Lightroom 4 just came out and can make excellent prints...or Photoshop CS5 although there will be a learning curve involved...

In Photoshop and Lightroom you can soft proof your images so you can tweak them before you print. That's the proper way.

With regards to your paper choice, Epson Ultra Presentation Matte, it has a very narrow D-max...which means the blacks are not very black and the whites are rather dim. Depending on how you set up the printer, and the settings (which again you've not bothered to mention) it's entirely possible you have the wrong media settings and are over inking the prints. Don't know...but pooling ink and wrinkled prints is a clue.

If you you are printing with the 3880 are not matching up to prints you've had made by 3rd parties, I lean towards thinking your printer settings and profile are wrong. But we don't know because you've not shared them.

Maybe what you need to do is a meta-post where you share ALL the settings you are making in the application and print driver and indicate what OS you're using...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 09:09:13 pm
Yeah, you're right...it's become increasingly difficult to keep track of what info you've produced...

I do not know why when I have produced majority of that info in first several posts, including the very first post, but let's go through this again.

I presume you are printing on Windows (I presume because you've not stated and it make a difference).

Yes, I am. Win 7 64-bit.

You've indicated you've tried printing from Elements (what version?) and "QPrint/QuickView" and I have no idea what those are and whether or not they are color managed...

Elements 10. QuickView is one of file viewing apps. I have also tried QImage Ultimate and result is exactly same as from QuickView (as in better than Elements but still too dark).

In terms of Elements, in the print module, there should be a way of selecting the correct printer/paper profile. You've not indicated (have you?) what profile is selected.

I have indicated that. I am using profile whose name is matching paper.

Assuming a Window environment, what are your settings in the 3880 Print Properties? Do you have is set to Off (no color management)?

Mode is set to Auto.

Since you invested on a good printer to make prints, I would suggest getting more mainstream software which is a higher level than Elements. Lightroom 4 just came out and can make excellent prints...

I don't have problem investing in quality stuff if I am sure that will address problem. But with prints not getting any better no matter which app I use, including one of commonly used printing apps, what guarantee I have anything will change?

With regards to your paper choice, Epson Ultra Presentation Matte, it has a very narrow D-max...which means the blacks are not very black and the whites are rather dim. Depending on how you set up the printer, and the settings (which again you've not bothered to mention) it's entirely possible you have the wrong media settings and are over inking the prints. Don't know...but pooling ink and wrinkled prints is a clue.

Wrinkled print with Matte might be a clue but I doubt it is my setting that is causing it because I have mentioned I have tried with several different Epson papers, all with their corresponding profile, and result is same with all of them.

Maybe what you need to do is a meta-post where you share ALL the settings you are making in the application and print driver and indicate what OS you're using...

I will go back and make sure I systematically went through settings. I will also try LR. But even before that I might try ImagePrint to see if that will change anything drastically.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 09:18:50 pm
Mode is set to Auto.

That is a problem if you are expecting application managed color...if you set the profile in the application the printer properties should be set to Custom and then select Off (no color management). It's also super critical that you set the correct media settings (which are not the same as the printing profile). When you select the Media Type, is it set to Presentation Matte and is the ink listing Matte Black ink?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 09:23:14 pm
That is a problem if you are expecting application managed color...if you set the profile in the application the printer properties should be set to Custom and then select Off (no color management). It's also super critical that you set the correct media settings (which are not the same as the printing profile). When you select the Media Type, is it set to Presentation Matte and is the ink listing Matte Black ink?

I think I will best answer this by checking what they are exactly when I get home and posting some screenshots.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 07, 2012, 09:35:56 pm
So the OP is saying the took a shot of a room with their camera, printed it, and then is holding it up so they can see the print and the room at the same time, and have decided the print is too dark because it doesn't look like the scene they see?

sorry, but I don't see the logic in that at all, not sure why the OP would even expect it, and have never heard of anyone printing this way. There is no workflow I"m aware of where this is a plausible scenario, and I can't understand why anyone would think this is a logical expectation.

What control is there to "light" the print when doing this type of comparison?  I see you all trying to explain things as though he might have a color management problem, but bottom line this is a pretty illogical approach, and the idea that he shouldn't have to make adjustments to a file because it is "exposed" correctly is crazy, seeing how there isn't really any such thing.  All the meter in the camera is doing is driving everything to a consistent level of grey, so if there is a lot of dark stuff in the scene the file will be "overexposed" even though it says 0EV, if there is a lot of light stuff in the scene the file will be underexposed, and assuming you shouldn't have to make any adjustments at all to get a perfect print is illogical.

My suggestion is quit trying to evaluate a print by holding up against the original scene you photography ... if you want to do that fine, but then after you hold it up understand you will always have to make adjustments to it.  There is absolutely no magic in metering systems and an exposure of 0EV just means the entire scene will blend to an 18% gray.  Shoot a white wall at 0, a black wall at 0, print them both with no adjustments (assuming the camera maker and software don't interfere) and guess what ... you get too prints pretty much the same tone of grey.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: chichornio on March 07, 2012, 09:36:52 pm
Well, a very simple topic turned out to be an "almost"  philosophical thread about "Real Life" CM issues... if you go back and check my replies to your problem in this therad, I would suggest to you right know to get rid of your 3880 and get an HP 3200 24". You must get rid of the Epson canned profiles and build your owns until you are satisfied.
I`m an amateur printmaker, sefl-taught, from the end of the word (near Patagonia, South America).
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 09:55:09 pm
...I would suggest to you right know to get rid of your 3880 and get an HP 3200 24". You must get rid of the Epson canned profiles and build your owns until you are satisfied.

Not for nothing but that's an idiotic piece of advice...have you ever used a 3880? It's a very capable printer when the user has the right settings. Brining in a printer platform war to a discussion on how to properly set up a printer is a foolish waste of bandwidth...what printer the OP has installed has nothing to do with his issues...how he trying to use it is pivotal. If you have nothing constructive to add to the OP, move along...there's nothing of interest here for you (these are not the droids you were looking for).
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Farmer on March 07, 2012, 10:23:28 pm
Have you done a nozzle check on your printer?

And, to be clear, the assembled experience and expertise with printing of the people just posting in this forum is *extensive* and when you feel they are wrong and you are right, it's usually a good idea to check that thought and instead of insisting that they listen to you, that you instead listen to them.

But, again, have you done a nozzle check pattern?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: chichornio on March 07, 2012, 10:41:32 pm
Not for nothing but that's an idiotic piece of advice...have you ever used a 3880? It's a very capable printer when the user has the right settings. Brining in a printer platform war to a discussion on how to properly set up a printer is a foolish waste of bandwidth...what printer the OP has installed has nothing to do with his issues...how he trying to use it is pivotal. If you have nothing constructive to add to the OP, move along...there's nothing of interest here for you (these are not the droids you were looking for).

I won`t answer that agression. I have any business with HP at all! ZoranC, please re-build your "canned" profile and get one that suit your needs. "What you see if what you get" it`s a MYTH. Get closer...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 07, 2012, 11:09:12 pm
I won`t answer that agression. I have any business with HP at all! ZoranC, please re-build your "canned" profile and get one that suit your needs. "What you see if what you get" it`s a MYTH. Get closer...

Point in fact, because the unit to unit variation is so tight with Epson (compared to the loosy goosey of HP & Canon) the "canned profiles" with the Epson pro line are very, very good. You obviously don't have any experience in that regard, right?

To the OP don't be distracted by your choice of printer...your 3800 is a fine machine and the Epson supplied profile very good (assuming the correct settings). Yes, you might be able to eak out a tiny improvement with custom made profiles, but that's not been my experience with Epson pro printers (including 3880, 4900, 7900 and 9900) with "canned profiles" for the Epson papers I print on.

With regards to my aggression, it's there because nothing about your posts are the least bit useful to the OP...he has a 3880. What do you honestly expect him to do. Trash the 3880 and buy an HP? I don't think so...let us know when you have something useful to contribute...otherwise you might want to un-clutter the noise in this thread.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 11:28:53 pm
So the OP is saying the took a shot of a room with their camera, printed it, and then is holding it up so they can see the print and the room at the same time, and have decided the print is too dark because it doesn't look like the scene they see? ...

We already wrapped up topic of exposure so, unless I am missing something new added to it in your post, I see no need to restart it.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 07, 2012, 11:30:02 pm
Have you done a nozzle check on your printer?

Yes, it is perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: BarbaraArmstrong on March 08, 2012, 12:09:57 am
Going back to the subject of this topic -- "what my eyes are seeing?" -- the OP should bear in mind that what his brain perceives in any scene with brights and shadows encompasses a much higher dynamic range than his camera is capable of.  Your brain is instantaneously adjusting as your eyes move from a light to a dark area, and you take in the details over a much broader range of lighting than the camera will register.  With the afternoon California sun the OP mentioned, the camera is likely stopping down to adjust to that light, and yielding a darker-than-desired negative or digital file.  The OP said others have been printing his files.  I suspect that the prints have been lightened up from what he submitted.  The machinery of a printing shop will have done this automatically without his ever knowing.  Nowhere has the OP indicated that his monitor is calibrated.  He wishes to avoid discussing the monitor.  But the monitor functions as our eyes on the digital file.  There may be other problems in his workflow/software settings, but the initial step, suggested by others, to simply dial down the brightness of the monitor until prints and monitor are close, may well get him to the point where he can enjoy the other benefits of his imaging software. --Barbara
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 12:37:57 am
Try this file. Print it and tell us what you see.
http://webtransformer.com/calibrate/Calibration-Composite-ICC-sRGB-Full.jpg

My guess is that it will still print too dark. But then again, you don't have the babies and bikini model in front of you, so how would you know whether the reality is matching the print?

This is getting interesting. I have printed this file using Mode on Auto and it is printing almost exactly same as it is displayed on monitor, both color wise and brightness wise. Same when Mode is on Custom - Color Controls. When I use Mode - Custom - Off colors are off and darker. Skin of babies ends up having unhealthy tones, dice are darker, berries in bowl are not red but almost brown and so are red in color checker, bikini, and flower in the hair. Funny thing is not everything is affected. For example red on a robot seems unchanged and on a boat it is darker but not as much as others.

What would be your conclusion based on this?

It doesn't make sense to me why photo you told me to use prints exactly same as on monitor when photo I took prints darker than on monitor.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 12:39:36 am
Nowhere has the OP indicated that his monitor is calibrated.  He wishes to avoid discussing the monitor.  But the monitor functions as our eyes on the digital file.  There may be other problems in his workflow/software settings, but the initial step, suggested by others, to simply dial down the brightness of the monitor until prints and monitor are close, may well get him to the point where he can enjoy the other benefits of his imaging software. --Barbara

Barbara please see post above in which I am saying file I was provided printed almost exactly same as it is on monitor.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Bryan Conner on March 08, 2012, 01:02:33 am
Make sure that in the Photoshop Elements print dialogue box (assuming it has one...I do not use elements) that it indicates that the printer will manage the colors.  Send an sRGB image to your printer.  Make sure that the printers dialogue box indicates that it will manage the color.  Maybe this is where your auto setting is.  Have your paper type chosen correctly and print.  Maybe using this "very vanilla" setting will produce an acceptable print as far as brightness is concerned.  If it does, then we can proceed to eliminate other variables and find the culprit. 
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: a.lorge on March 08, 2012, 02:10:07 am
Here is a screen shot of the printer settings i would use in photoshop elements (screen shot attached):

And use these driver settings (http://www.photoreview.com.au/reviews/printers/3880-driver-PS-printing.jpg):
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 08, 2012, 02:22:35 am
Yes, it is perfectly fine.
well, except to perhaps reiterate your expectations seem completely outside of reality, so all the other talk really is irrelevant.  Everyone is attacking this as a color management issue, bottom line it isn't.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: a.lorge on March 08, 2012, 02:48:12 am
well, except to perhaps reiterate your expectations seem completely outside of reality, so all the other talk really is irrelevant.  Everyone is attacking this as a color management issue, bottom line it isn't.

That's probably true.  Being able to print an image that exactly duplicates a photographed subject is an interesting concept though.  Sound like technology Wile E. Coyote would be very interested in.  Numerous Potential Road Runner tricking applications.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: BarbaraArmstrong on March 08, 2012, 03:21:17 am
Zoran, you called my attention to your test print.  The fact that you liked the print result when printing in Auto mode is not the test.  As Jeff Schewe said earlier, you don't want to print in Auto; you should be using established color management methods.  To make sure you aren't having a problem with what the monitor is showing you (remember, the monitor is your eyes on the digital file), you should start with a calibrated monitor.  Then, in Photoshop, set the proper printer/paper ICC profile, set Photoshop to manage colors, and disable any color management by the printer.  Also in the printer dialogue, set the appropriate paper type.  I didn't see any problems with the screen shot you showed., so I'm not sure where your problem is.  Did you earlier mention over-inkage on the paper?  That is indeed a sign of something wrong in the print settings (or printing on the wrong side of the paper?) --Moisten a finger with your tongue and touch to a corner of the paper.  Print on the sticky side of the paper; that's the side with the inkjet-receptive coating.  Also, be willing to address the monitor if you want to get the best print results from your photography.  The two big areas you're interested in with the monitor are color representation and brightness.  Start by adjusting the brightness downward when you're certain your print settings are correct and your prints are still too dark.  Then a calibration would bring color representation in line if you're having trouble with that. --Barbara
 
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 08, 2012, 03:22:09 am
...
It doesn't make sense to me why photo you told me to use prints exactly same as on monitor when photo I took prints darker than on monitor.

Can you post the photo that you took here? What camera did you use to take the picture and are you shooting it as JPEG sRGB or RAW AdobeRGB?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 03:31:16 am
well, except to perhaps reiterate your expectations seem completely outside of reality, so all the other talk really is irrelevant.  Everyone is attacking this as a color management issue, bottom line it isn't.

You are free to continue down the road of being aggressive while not offering anything but riddle me this for a second: If this was not a color management issue how do you explain that test file I was given printed just fine as displayed while shot I have taken didn't when only difference between two is that first one has no color management info in it?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 03:33:00 am
That's probably true.  Being able to print an image that exactly duplicates a photographed subject is an interesting concept though.  Sound like technology Wile E. Coyote would be very interested in.  Numerous Potential Road Runner tricking applications.

Sounds to me your post is yet another typical 'net "I have nothing to contribute but I will be a wise ... instead".
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 03:39:39 am
Zoran, you called my attention to your test print.  The fact that you liked the print result when printing in Auto mode is not the test.  As Jeff Schewe said earlier, you don't want to print in Auto; you should be using established color management methods.  To make sure you aren't having a problem with what the monitor is showing you (remember, the monitor is your eyes on the digital file), you should start with a calibrated monitor. Then, in Photoshop, set the proper printer/paper ICC profile, set Photoshop to manage colors, and disable any color management by the printer.  Also in the printer dialogue, set the appropriate paper type.

Barbara, shot that printed exactly as displayed is one I was given link to earlier and that one doesn't have color info in it. Shots I am having problem with are ones that do have color info in them. I have followed instructions on how to correctly print using Lightroom to the last letter and there wasn't any improvement.

That is indeed a sign of something wrong in the print settings (or printing on the wrong side of the paper?) --Moisten a finger with your tongue and touch to a corner of the paper.  Print on the sticky side of the paper; that's the side with the inkjet-receptive coating.

I am printing on correct sides of papers. On some Epson papers back side is clearly marked and on others Epson attaches instructions how to identofy correct side.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 03:40:41 am
Here is a screen shot of the printer settings i would use in photoshop elements (screen shot attached):

And use these driver settings (http://www.photoreview.com.au/reviews/printers/3880-driver-PS-printing.jpg):


Thank you, but in the meantime I got a copy of LR 3, followed earlier instructions to last letter and no improvement.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 03:44:01 am
Did you earlier mention over-inkage on the paper?

Yes, I mentioned there is a chance there might be over-inkage. As matte paper comes out it is kinda, how to describe it, curved up in the middle. Once it dries it is flat again.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 08, 2012, 03:44:35 am
You are free to continue down the road of being aggressive while not offering anything but riddle me this for a second: If this was not a color management issue how do you explain that test file I was given printed just fine as displayed while shot I have taken didn't when only difference between two is that first one has no color management info in it?

Zoran,

Wayne Fox, Slobodan and I all pointed this out to you saying it is important, and you are ignoring it. Now you are saying you have color management issue. At the beginning of this thread, you said you want your print to match the realty (the scene right in front of you).

What we are telling you is that thinking is illogical because the camera metering system will try to balance out to 18% neutral gray, so if you take a picture of your room with almost no light vs. very bright light will end up looking pretty similar. This has been mentioned to you multiple times, but you are not seeing it. Keep saying all my cameras that I used in the past exposed it fine does not mean you understand the metering system.

So, at the end of the day, even if you solve the color management issue, you will still not be able to match the print to a reality you see, if you are just using the auto metering set at 0 EV. Not possible unless the room just happens to be lighted up correctly at 18% gray neutral tone.


 
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 03:50:38 am
Zoran,

Wayne Fox, Slobodan and I all pointed this out to you saying it is important, and you are ignoring it. Now you are saying you have color management issue. At the beginning of this thread, you said you want your print to match the realty (the scene right in front of you).

What we are telling you is that thinking is illogical because the camera metering system will try to balance out to 18% neutral gray, so if you take a picture of your room with almost no light vs. very bright light will end up looking pretty similar. This has been mentioned to you multiple times, but you are not seeing it. Keep saying all my cameras that I used in the past exposed it fine does not mean you understand the metering system.

So, at the end of the day, even if you solve the color management issue, you will still not be able to match the print to a reality you see, if you are just using the auto metering set at 0 EV. Not possible unless the room just happens to be lighted up correctly at 18% gray neutral tone.

Johnny_Boy, I hear what you are saying but let me ask you one straightforward question: If shot link to I was provided earlier by you printed almost exactly as displayed is it logical to expect shot I have taken should then also print almost exactly as displayed?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 08, 2012, 03:56:19 am
Johnny_Boy, I hear what you are saying but let me ask you one straightforward question: If shot link to I was provided earlier by you printed almost exactly as displayed is it logical to expect shot I have taken should then also print almost exactly as displayed?

Yes and no.

If you asked, can the PRINT match what I see on the SCREEN? The answer is YES, as you have noticed from the test file that I pointed out to you.
If you asked, can the PRINT match what my eyes are seeing right in front me (REALTY)? The answer is mostly NO, since you are using auto metering exposure setting which will try to render the scene neutral. So your print might look brighter than reality or darker than reality, depends on how the room is lit up.

For example, see the images below. The first set of images represents the "REALITY". If you take individual pictures of the scene in the first set of images and using auto exposure and metering, you will end up with the second set of images (all ends up being 18% gray).

So when you are saying hey, I took a picture of my room, using auto metering set at 0EV, and then I printed it and it looks dark, it doesn't make any sense, since that is by design. So stop asking that question :) and just say I want what I see on my monitor to match the print. Then it just becomes the color management issue.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 04:01:40 am
Yes and no.

If you asked, can the PRINT match what I see on the SCREEN? The answer is YES, as you have noticed from the test file that I pointed out to you.
If you asked, can the PRINT match what my eyes are seeing right in front me (REALTY)? The answer is mostly NO, since you are using auto metering exposure setting which will try to render the scene neutral. So your print might look brighter than reality or darker than reality, depends on how the room is lit up.

I am not asking neither first nor second, please try to forget second for a moment and focus on following:

If print of shot you sent me printed practically exactly as displayed is it logical to expect some other shot from somewhere else will print practically exactly as displayed?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 08, 2012, 04:07:58 am
YES.

Assuming all the color management stuff is set correctly and the monitor is calibrated correctly and etc,  and assuming you are lighting your print at the right light level, your PRINT should come out very close to what you are seeing on the MONITOR.

Sorry I thought you were asking about question #2 because in your initial post you said "I can only describe as prints being darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing. If I take a photo of my work area and print it it ends up darker than what I am seeing around me."

What you should have said is my print is darker than what I see on my monitor? 
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 04:12:53 am
YES.

Assuming all the color management stuff is set correctly and the monitor is calibrated correctly and etc,  and assuming you are lighting your print at the right light level, your PRINT should come out very close to what you are seeing on the MONITOR.

Sorry I thought you were asking about question #2 because in your initial post you said "I can only describe as prints being darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing. If I take a photo of my work area and print it it ends up darker than what I am seeing around me."

What you should have said is my print is darker than what I see on my monitor? 

What I am trying to point out to you is that print you sent me (please see one of my earlier posts) printed exactly as displayed when color management was done by printer, and didn't print correctly when management was done by application, and that shots I have taken continue not being printed as displayed regardless of who manages the color.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Farmer on March 08, 2012, 04:16:54 am
Instead of telling us that you're following the instructions correctly to print in LR4, please POST UP details and screen shots of all your settings, including the driver settings, so we can check.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Farmer on March 08, 2012, 04:18:33 am
What I am trying to point out to you is that print you sent me (please see one of my earlier posts) printed exactly as displayed when color management was done by printer, and didn't print correctly when management was done by application, and that shots I have taken continue not being printed as displayed regardless of who manages the color.

Which means that your workflow is wrong somewhere.  Please post screen shots of ALL your LR4 settings and ALL your driver settings and explain all the steps you are taking.  Somewhere in there, we will discover the flaw and be able to fix your problem.

Don't worry about trying to riddle why this or that did or did not happen - post the workflow.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 04:19:20 am
Instead of telling us that you're following the instructions correctly to print in LR4, please POST UP details and screen shots of all your settings, including the driver settings, so we can check.

You can't trust poster that he did when he says so, you have to tell him you don't trust him and treat him like a little child?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 08, 2012, 04:20:41 am
Zoran, I get your point. What camera are you using are you shooting it RAW or JPEG on sRGB or AdobeRGB? I wonder if you have set it to AdobeRGB, but your printer is expecting sRGB?

Download some other random photos from the net and print it. Do they print out well like the last one?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 04:21:36 am
Which means that your workflow is wrong somewhere.  Please post screen shots of ALL your LR4 settings and ALL your driver settings and explain all the steps you are taking.  Somewhere in there, we will discover the flaw and be able to fix your problem.

Don't worry about trying to riddle why this or that did or did not happen - post the workflow.

See you can't trust me when I say I did, you have to treat me as if I am little child that can't be trusted when he said he did, while you are not even paying attention to what I said, otherwise you would have noticed I said LR 3, not LR 4.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 04:24:58 am
Zoran, I get your point. What camera are you using are you shooting it RAW or JPEG on sRGB or AdobeRGB? I wonder if you have set it to AdobeRGB, but your printer is expecting sRGB?

Download some other random photos from the net and print it. Do they print out well like the last one?

One I used for particular shot in question is Olympus EP3. I shoot RAW+JPG, and use that JPG. Camera is set to sRGB. Monitor is HP LP3065.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Johnny_Boy on March 08, 2012, 04:32:33 am
Thanks. Can you post the digital file in question as well as a photo of the print out? Can you attach them to the thread? That will help us a lot on what is going on.

(Put the problematic dark print next to some kind of reference print, like that color test print that came out well, and take picture of both together, so we can judge correctly)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 04:38:07 am
Thanks. Can you post the digital file in question as well as a photo of the print out? Can you attach them to the thread? That will help us a lot on what is going on.

(Put the problematic dark print next to some kind of reference print, like that color test print that came out well, and take picture of both together, so we can judge correctly)

I will have to leave that for tomorrow, I should go back to bed as it is already very late. In the meantime could you please point me in direction of best gray cards / color checkers / etc I would use to assure shots taken are as they should be? Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Farmer on March 08, 2012, 05:40:11 am
3 or 4 - doesn't actually matter.  Yes, we don't trust you, because it's quite clear you aren't sure about what you're doing.

You're so certain that you're doing everything right - well then keep doing it!
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 08, 2012, 08:32:15 am
I will have to leave that for tomorrow, I should go back to bed as it is already very late. In the meantime could you please point me in direction of best gray cards / color checkers / etc I would use to assure shots taken are as they should be? Thanks in advance!
X-Rite Passport Color Checker (http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=1257)!  One other point, the Epson Ultra Premium Matte paper does come out of the printer feeling a little damp and curled but dries down quite fast and flattens as it dries.  I seriously doubt that over inking is an issue as long as you use the correct driver setting.  In addition, I have found at all of the Epson supplied profiles are excellent.  You say that you are using the camera JPG to print from.  Why would you do this since you are capturing RAW files?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 12:27:03 pm
Yes, we don't trust you, because it's quite clear you aren't sure about what you're doing.

You're so certain that you're doing everything right - well then keep doing it!

While I am sure I don't know ins and outs of color management I am quite confident I can follow simplest instructions when pointed in their direction and that I don't have to be questioned over that. I hope you are not treating ones around you like you are to me for their own sake. Have a nice one.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 12:32:21 pm
I will have to leave that for tomorrow, I should go back to bed as it is already very late. In the meantime could you please point me in direction of best gray cards / color checkers / etc I would use to assure shots taken are as they should be? Thanks in advance!

Johnny_Boy, thanks to constant derailments by those that look to find something wrong that poster said and then hammering on that to no end I will put this effort on hold until my lightmeter etc arrives. I will post only shots that is guaranteed perfectly exposed etc in order to avoid future derailments (please notice I don't have you in mind, post above by Farmer is representative of what I had in mind). In the meantime thank you and everyone that tried to help.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 12:35:59 pm
X-Rite Passport Color Checker (http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=1257)!  One other point, the Epson Ultra Premium Matte paper does come out of the printer feeling a little damp and curled but dries down quite fast and flattens as it dries.  I seriously doubt that over inking is an issue as long as you use the correct driver setting.

Thank you!

You say that you are using the camera JPG to print from.  Why would you do this since you are capturing RAW files?

Convenience. RAW for future maximum results from the keepers, JPG for immediate use.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: neile on March 08, 2012, 12:38:34 pm
Zoran, can you post a copy of the image you're trying to print? Even a small-ish size version would be fine.

Neil
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 12:54:34 pm
Zoran, can you post a copy of the image you're trying to print? Even a small-ish size version would be fine.

Neil, I will do that once my lightmeter and other gear arrives and I retake shots so there is no further questioning whether shot was correctly exposed.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: neile on March 08, 2012, 12:59:30 pm
Since the whole thread started with your current image, it would be helpful to see the image that has caused so much discussion.

And, as has been said many times before on this thread in various ways, no matter how "properly exposed" your image is at capture time it will not look the same brightness level when printed. Things in the printing world simply don't work that way.

Neil
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 01:13:22 pm
With regards to your paper choice, Epson Ultra Presentation Matte, it has a very narrow D-max...which means the blacks are not very black and the whites are rather dim.

Jeff, one question please: Which paper you would recommend for inexpensive evaluation of prints before final print? Thank you in advance!
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 01:14:33 pm
And, as has been said many times before on this thread in various ways, no matter how "properly exposed" your image is at capture time it will not look the same brightness level when printed. Things in the printing world simply don't work that way.

I understand that by now. But at least it will eliminate further questions whether I correctly exposed.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Randy Carone on March 08, 2012, 01:24:43 pm
I have printed many images that were not properly exposed. I had to adjust the image before I printed it. Once it was properly adjusted in Photoshop, the print came out as expected.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 08, 2012, 01:27:46 pm
Jeff, one question please: Which paper you would recommend for inexpensive evaluation of prints before final print? Thank you in advance!
It depends if you a printing on gloss or matte paper.  If matte paper, then the Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte will work but be mindful that it has a high content of Optical Brightening Agents (OBAs) as do a number of the other "inexpensive" Epson papers.  These may give the false illusion of a brighter paper than the one you may finally print on if it does not have OBAs.  In addition, I would not be quick to use your camera JPG as an evaluation tool since it represents what the camera maker believes to be a good image in terms of color rendition, balance, etc.  It's far better to work with the RAW file and adjust it to what You think the image should look like.  I don't know if the printing problem you are experiencing has to do with the JPG but I would spend more time on RAW file adjustment.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 08, 2012, 02:32:39 pm
You are free to continue down the road of being aggressive while not offering anything but riddle me this for a second: If this was not a color management issue how do you explain that test file I was given printed just fine as displayed while shot I have taken didn't when only difference between two is that first one has no color management info in it?
To claim I am being aggressive while not offering anything is absurd. I am very clearly pointing out that your original expectation (regardless of any color management issues) is flawed beyond comprehension and you need to clearly understand that.  If your first print printed out just fine using color management through Photoshop, and your second print didn't using the same correct color management, then indeed that file needs adjusted.  If you want it to match reality, you need to adjust it accordingly with reality in front of you.  If you have taken pictures before and it happen to work, wonderful - that was coincidental.

You are trying to use a print as a method of determining whether or not your exposure is correct, perhaps similar to how a shooter might use polaroid to nail exposure of transparency film.  They didn't do it with light meters etc. but by trial and error.  If you want to "nail" your exposure by producing a print without modifications that matches the scene, you have to do two things.  First you have to get some idea of color management and make sure you are following the steps.  Don't take shortcuts, don't try to understand it (most don't), just make sure you understand how to do it.

Second, and this is where I think your methodology is completely out of touch with any realistic expectations, you will have to use a printer to base your exposure.  Yes, you will have to take a shot, print it without modification, then adjust the exposure no matter what the meter says, until the print "matches".   Of course, this ignores issues like the lighting on the print to be evaluated, as well as the fact with digital linear capture there is no point in this.  There is nothing magic or special about 0ev.  So logically instead of doing this, you could shoot 10 or 12 shots, ignoring the exposure meter and then print them out, picking the "correct" one.  Neither of these makes any sense in a workflow involving digital capture.  I would venture to say that 90% or more of the digital captures made require at least a small ev adjustment when printed to look correct.  That's just the nature of photography (film and negatives were no different, exposure times and color settings of the light source varied with every single negative).

So despite all the other color management discussion in this forum and your attempts to get a grasp on that, you will be much better off if you quit trying to judge exposure based on matching reality to an unadjusted print.

good luck.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 02:45:27 pm
It depends if you a printing on gloss or matte paper.  If matte paper, then the Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte will work but be mindful that it has a high content of Optical Brightening Agents (OBAs) as do a number of the other "inexpensive" Epson papers.

Thank you! What you would recommend as inexpensive gloss paper good enough for approximate evaluations leading up toward final print?

In addition, I would not be quick to use your camera JPG as an evaluation tool since it represents what the camera maker believes to be a good image in terms of color rendition, balance, etc.  It's far better to work with the RAW file and adjust it to what You think the image should look like.

I do not plan to use out of camera JPGs for anything that would be close to final print. I use them to be able to quickly view files and for other non-critical things where convenience comes ahead. Prints will come from processed RAW. Only reason why I used JPG for print in this case is because I didn't see it not being processed from RAW as critical.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 02:52:43 pm
To claim I am being aggressive while not offering anything is absurd.

We obviously disagree on that. Let me just say this and leave it at that: If I didn't think I was justifiably feeling that you are I wouldn't have said it.

If your first print printed out just fine using color management through Photoshop, and your second print didn't using the same correct color management, then indeed that file needs adjusted.

If with this you are referring to my earlier statement about test shot from link that printed fine while one taken by me didn't let me point out that it seems you have missed part where it was said first one doesn't have any CM info in it while second one does, so I don't think one can assume there was same color management.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Farmer on March 08, 2012, 04:18:59 pm
/shrug  I've seen the most experienced users miss something in the workflow that they've been doing for years.  You might consider the instructions simple, but they're not always obvious unless you are familiar with the workflow.

I've never once said your shot was not properly exposed.  I've looked at typical issues that can be overlooked and cause these problems but all along you've point blank refused to accept that there could be anything wrong with what you're doing.  You may be right, but the only way to effectively troubleshoot something is to eliminate possible causes.

I wish you the best of luck - I really do - I hope you get magnificant prints from your printer that look just the way you want them, but I really suggest that you open yourself up to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, it would be worth having some expert eyes check over the way you're doing things.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: BarbaraArmstrong on March 08, 2012, 05:15:09 pm
Zoran, you have been fortunate that some of the very best people in the printing world (and I certainly don't mean myself) have taken the time and trouble to try to help you.  You have dissed them by complaining that they are being aggressive or treating you like a child.  They have not deserved that.  What appeared to you to be aggressiveness was simply an emphatic rejection of the assumption you are beginning with.  The assumption, that you could feed a well-exposed file to the type of printer we're talking about, and expect a good result (print) without adjustments to the file, and color management, and a myriad of appropriate settings in the software and hardware drivers, is incorrect.  Your insistence on getting a light meter to ensure the accuracy of the initial exposure simply highlights that you remain ensnared in that assumption.  You are not being treated "like a child."  You are new to this, and need to learn all the small steps that must be taken to ensure optimal and consistent results.  The fact that you could hit "Auto" and get a good print on something you fed to the printer has misled you.  A little humility stemming from being new to this would go a long way toward continuing to get the help you want. --Barbara   
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Randy Carone on March 08, 2012, 05:44:37 pm
Thank you Barbara, you are much more kind than the thoughts I've had on this particular thread. It is difficult when someone yells "Help" and when help is offered the response is "I don't need your help".
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 06:04:57 pm
Your insistence on getting a light meter to ensure the accuracy of the initial exposure simply highlights that you remain ensnared in that assumption.  You are not being treated "like a child."

Barbara, _I_ am the one that is insisting on getting the light meter? Please re-read previous posts.

A little humility stemming from being new to this would go a long way toward continuing to get the help you want.

I think I can say things can go other way around: Technically superior people should remember to be humble and not talk down to those that are new this if they are really interested in helping.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: digitaldog on March 08, 2012, 06:05:03 pm
Considering that almost nobody is willing to think this logically through and quite a few are insisting on random assumptions (I guess I never knew metering across all of my cameras over the years has been consistently severely underexposing) who can point me in direction of "correctly exposed" files I can use for test?

IF you actually throughly read the Why are my prints too dark article you seemed to dismiss on page one of these threads, you’d see the part about using reference images we know do not print too dark to test the process. IF they print too dark, it is not the data. If they don’t print too dark, then it is likely your files are the culprit. The process is spelled out, you simply need to go through the process to determine what is the cause of the darkness (too bright a display, a file who’s RGB values are incorrect, an issue with the print driver or application etc).
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: stormyboy on March 08, 2012, 06:45:41 pm
Jeepers, this OP sure knows how to generate forum activity.  There are 40 responses on Dpreview and 122 here for the same initial post. 
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 06:56:10 pm
IF you actually throughly read the Why are my prints too dark article you seemed to dismiss on page one of these threads, you’d see the part about using reference images we know do not print too dark to test the process. IF they print too dark, it is not the data. If they don’t print too dark, then it is likely your files are the culprit. The process is spelled out, you simply need to go through the process to determine what is the cause of the darkness (too bright a display, a file who’s RGB values are incorrect, an issue with the print driver or application etc).

If you have taken a look at my posts in this thread you would see that I _did_ ask for and use reference images so obviously I _am_ reading through and following something :) and yes, printing one test file does indicate it is _something_ about printing of my own files but question is what. Continuing to pound on assumption they are _all_ underexposed makes no sense when a) if they display fine just like test one did they should print fine just like test one did, and b) how many stops I would have to underexpose in broad daylight to end up with print that seems as if it was taken at night? Nobody beside Johnny_Boy paying attention to that?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: digitaldog on March 08, 2012, 06:58:24 pm
If you have taken a look at my posts in this thread you would see that I _did_ ask for and use reference images so obviously I _am_ reading through and following something :)

And if you had taken a harder look at the article, you’d have seen where to get one...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: digitaldog on March 08, 2012, 07:07:19 pm
Continuing to pound on assumption they are _all_ underexposed makes no sense when a) if they display fine just like test one did they should print fine just like test one did, and b) how many stops I would have to underexpose in broad daylight to end up with print that seems as if it was taken at night?

No, it makes prefect sense in light of the reference prints not printing too dark. The display has nothing to do here at this point, you have two sets of documents. One that is known to contain good RGB values and prints fine and a pile of others of questionable RGB values that don’t. You could be doing this test on a Grayscale display and the facts would remain the same in terms of the image data, the driver and printer and why one group prints like s*&t and the others don’t.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: AFairley on March 08, 2012, 08:01:52 pm
Zoran, I am appalled at the behavior you are exhibiting here.  You have asked a group of friendly, helpful, and EXTREMELY knowledgeable people here for help, and instead of giving them the additional information they have asked for in order to be able to help you, you have rewarded their generous donation of time to you by being insulting and belligerent without provocation.  Not to mention talking down to and belittling people (I will not name names) who have forgotten more about color digital printing than you will ever learn in your lifetime.  How on earth do you expect to get help if all you do is insult and berate the the people who are trying to help you?  Maybe it's time for you to move on; I can't imaging anyone will have any interest in lifting a finger to help you after the churlish display we've seen in this thread.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 08:24:59 pm
And if you had taken a harder look at the article, you’d have seen where to get one...

... and if all you are looking to do is to find something to pick and be rude about solely for the sake of rudeness why don't you join some politician's campaign instead of directing it at me?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 08:28:29 pm
No, it makes prefect sense in light of the reference prints not printing too dark. The display has nothing to do here at this point, you have two sets of documents. One that is known to contain good RGB values and prints fine and a pile of others of questionable RGB values that don’t.

Every single one of my files I tried has questionable RGB values? If it was one or two I would say OK, maybe. But every single one of them? Yeah, that makes absolute "sense".
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: digitaldog on March 08, 2012, 08:30:25 pm
Every single one of my files I tried has questionable RGB values?

Based on your understanding of these issues, absolutely possible. But I suspect that most here have decided to stop trying to help you, you simply don’t get it. You’re on your own kid.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 08:37:09 pm
Problem with ZoranC is that he asks a question and then complains -- insultingly -- how all the answers he's getting are wrong.  Killfile.

Problem with me is that I have low tolerance for people that treat me with chip on their shoulder. Just like every other human I am more open to listening when person that is telling me something is not coming off arrogantly and actually took a second to listen and comprehend what I said instead of cleanly showing he/she did not do it even with my very first post before rattling off one of pre-canned responses ("Your monitor is not calibrated", "Your file is underexposed", etc).

If you find my response to being talked to in such manner (saying back what I exactly think of it instead of turning the other cheek and saying "Thank you Sir, may I have another, Sir") insulting don't look in my direction, start with a mirror, answer what happened is there.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 08:41:25 pm
Based on your understanding of these issues, absolutely possible.

Statistically speaking it is highly unlikely that every single file I tried has bad RGB values and that that is related to me.

But I suspect that most here have decided to stop trying to help you, you simply don’t get it. You’re on your own kid.

I have always believed that it is better to be on one's own than to be taking abuse of those that are "so helpful".


Let me put it this way: Person can be technical genius but if they are talking down toward those that they are trying to tech something they are absolute failure as a help/teacher and find themselves being walked away from by "students".
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: digitaldog on March 08, 2012, 08:45:16 pm
Statistically speaking it is highly unlikely that every single file I tried has bad RGB values and that that is related to me.

OK, then explain how the reference image is fine, your images are crap? You are so confident in your abilities that it is not possible you’ve hosed all your images? The more you write, the more I find it likely.

Quote
I have always believed that it is better to be on one's own than to be taking abuse of those that are "so helpful".

Great, you can then support yourself since it appears most here who tried are frustrated and have given up. You can (you are) your own worst enemy. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: AFairley on March 08, 2012, 08:47:22 pm
Let me put it this way: Person can be technical genius but if they are talking down toward those that they are trying to tech something they are absolute failure as a help/teacher and find themselves being walked away from by "students".

Let me put it this way: someone can be ignorant on a subject but if he is talking down to those who obviously know much more about the subject instead of listening to what they say, he's simply an ass, and finds himself being walked away from by the very people who could actually help him.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 09:06:00 pm
OK, then explain how the reference image is fine, your images are crap? You are so confident in your abilities that it is not possible you’ve hosed all your images? The more you write, the more I find it likely.

If I knew what is causing the difference I wouldn't be here asking a question that you are using as an opportunity to strut the arrogance. And to believe that I have somehow "hosed" all of my images? Please. What _exactly_ would "hose" them? Just simple act of transferring them from memory card to disk? Please.

Great, you can then support yourself since it appears most here who tried are frustrated and have given up. You can (you are) your own worst enemy. Enjoy.

Thank you, have a nice day.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 09:19:00 pm
You all can't figure out yet that this guy is nothing less than a TROLL, and you've taken his bait, and swallowed his hook,line ,and sinker!

Now this is very intelligent post. Not.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 08, 2012, 10:18:48 pm
Let me put it this way: someone can be ignorant on a subject but if he is talking down to those who obviously know much more about the subject instead of listening to what they say, he's simply an ass, and finds himself being walked away from by the very people who could actually help him.

Yup, person is an ass for not turning the other cheek when being approached in such manner. "Excuse" under pretense of "we are trying to help you" is just as valid as somebody beating up a child excusing it under pretense of "doing it for their own good".
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 08, 2012, 10:56:44 pm
Now this is very intelligent post. Not.

Not for nothing but...aside from joining LuLa to, as far as I can see, make a bunch of posts in the For Sale subforum in 2009, and a few in early 2012 regarding your newly purchased printer, I don't think you've spent much time posting here, huh?

This thread contains the majority of your posts here and it hasn't gone well for you, huh?. Maybe you need to step back and think about how you are behaving...

Once you post a topic, you really can't expect to control the flow of the answers...demanding answers adhere to some sort of self imposed criteria just doesn't fly here...you ask a question you get answers. You may like some and not like others–that's the way it is...You simply can't control how people do or don't answer you. If you get bent out of shape because you take umbrage with answers as some perceived slight to you, I think you need to grow a much thicker skin bud. I don't think you'll be long for these forums...

Really if you thought Wayne was being "aggressive", you really don't have a friggin' clue. You want aggressive? I can give you aggressive–believe me when I say I've already bent over backwards trying to help you out of your pitiful mess. You are foundering and flailing around in your morass...you don't know what you don't know and you have no understanding on how to learn what you need to learn. Your attitude is getting in your own way. Kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Long term, this is worse for you than anybody else.

I know how to print...I spend a fair amount of time trying to help people (and sometimes sell my knowledge in books or videos). If you want to learn how to print, cool. Get off your high horse and join the forum and get the friggin' chip off your shoulder.

Your move dooode...think before replying.

At a certain point the moderators have the power to ban you. Consider that...if you want to hang around here. This is not your playground, you are a guest here. Those privileges can be taken away...

Have a nice day!

:~)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: pfigen on March 09, 2012, 12:21:29 am
"Statistically speaking it is highly unlikely that every single file I tried has bad RGB values and that that is related to me."

Statistically and otherwise. Since, so far, you've been relying on your in camera meter to properly expose your images, this could be a problem. Many digital camera light meters purposefully underexpose the image in an attempt to retain as much highlight detail as possible. They do this because it's generally a lot easier to extract shadow detail than pull in highlights that are blown. Sort of a safety factor, if you will. So, yes, it's very possible that many or most of your shots look underexposed directly out of the camera.

In addition, every profile for every paper incorporates an assumed light viewing condition for the resulting prints. That viewing condition is usually some sort of standardized, color corrected and luminance corrected specification. You can look them up if you want, but I don't have them off the top of my head. A lot of us use lights like the Solux tungsten 4700Kelvin lights or the equivalent. When you're viewing your prints under random room light, that viewing light is very likely not anywhere near the spec for viewing that the paper profiles were made under. This could make your prints appear lighter than normal, darker than normal, or, if you're lucky, approximately right.

But judging the situation after slogging through all these posts, it does seem like an overall exposure problem is at the root of your printer woes, particularly when you are saying that the test files are printing more or less right and your own files are not.

I may be mistaken, but I thought I saw in one of your posts that you were in Southern California. If that's true, I invite you to drop by my studio and we'll make a couple of test prints on my Epson 9900 which has been custom profile and view them on a reference calibrated monitor. Really, the only way to properly judge digital camera exposure is on a hardware calibrated screen in a color managed application. I could tell you a lot in a very few short minutes after seeing your files and making a couple of prints. The west side of L.A. awaits.

Peter
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 01:00:34 am
I could tell you a lot in a very few short minutes after seeing your files and making a couple of prints. The west side of L.A. awaits.

Peter knows his stuff (we don't always agree 100% but I respect his knowledge and experience) you would be a fool to ignore is offer...your response will be very telling...(just so you know).
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: enduser on March 09, 2012, 01:02:51 am
A good offer, Pfigen.  This guy doesn't need behavior lectures, and unfortunately most here are experts in their field but are not necessarily good teachers.  A vist to someone's studio might just be the answer for him.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 01:18:46 am
Not for nothing but...aside from joining LuLa to, as far as I can see, make a bunch of posts in the For Sale subforum in 2009, and a few in early 2012 regarding your newly purchased printer, I don't think you've spent much time posting here, huh?

No, I haven't. And that matters how?

This thread contains the majority of your posts here and it hasn't gone well for you, huh?. Maybe you need to step back and think about how you are behaving...

So new members with low post count have to take abuse from those with "seniority"? New members have to walk on eggshells, older ones can dish out whatever they please and still feel they smell better than a rose?

Once you post a topic, you really can't expect to control the flow of the answers...demanding answers adhere to some sort of self imposed criteria just doesn't fly here...you ask a question you get answers. You may like some and not like others–that's the way it is...You simply can't control how people do or don't answer you.

I am sorry that I was trying to get on topic conversation instead of being given precanned white cards without even reading my very first post. Coming to LL I was expecting better, I was for some reason thinking posting here would be resulting in something that is not what is typical of forums like DPR. I see you are telling me I should have known better.

If you get bent out of shape because you take umbrage with answers as some perceived slight to you, I think you need to grow a much thicker skin bud. I don't think you'll be long for these forums...

If I had thin skin I wouldn't have continued trying to get some help (to those that truly tried: thank you!) while being given warm welcome. And if those already here had thick skin they wouldn't have felt offended when somebody pushes back when pushed around.

Really if you thought Wayne was being "aggressive", you really don't have a friggin' clue. You want aggressive? I can give you aggressive ...

You believing you can be more agressive than him makes him justified how exactly? And what your sentence here is exactly supposed to mean?

believe me when I say I've already bent over backwards trying to help you out of your pitiful mess.

How exactly pointing me to article that is not applicable to what I was describing and having me to repeat things I already said several times and ending at that can be called "bending over backwards trying to help me"?

You are foundering and flailing around in your morass...

Not really. What I feel is true foundering and flailing around in morass is when one has to repeat same thing over and over and over because person that is asking him is just not reading first several posts.

I know how to print...I spend a fair amount of time trying to help people (and sometimes sell my knowledge in books or videos).

Like I said before, whether you can print and have the knowledge of the printing is not being commented on, but I am commenting on how "help" was dished out in this particular case and how much it did "help".

If you want to learn how to print, cool. Get off your high horse and join the forum and get the friggin' chip off your shoulder.

I do, that's why I came here, but it is impossible to learn when teachers are arriving on their high horses with chips on their own shoulders.

Your move dooode...think before replying.

At a certain point the moderators have the power to ban you. Consider that...if you want to hang around here. This is not your playground, you are a guest here. Those privileges can be taken away...

Yes, but let it be noted, by same token, if things are applied with equal criteria, _everybody_ should be held against same standards. Seniority by knowledge and/or post count should not imply freedom to believe one can take out on others what others are being threatened over.

So threaten all you want and ban all you want if that's what your heart desires, it's easy to do it and be aggressive when things are one sided and other side has virtual hands tied, but such power in the hands doesn't make one righteous nor it should be used to intimidate others into submission.

And if I do get banned I hope this thread, including this post, remains intact so there are no questions why exactly I got banned.

Have a nice day!

I would have had a nice day but photo of a nice day printed too dark so I will have the nice night and I wish you same :)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 01:21:43 am
"Statistically speaking it is highly unlikely that every single file I tried has bad RGB values and that that is related to me."

Statistically and otherwise. Since, so far, you've been relying on your in camera meter to properly expose your images, this could be a problem. Many digital camera light meters purposefully underexpose the image in an attempt to retain as much highlight detail as possible. They do this because it's generally a lot easier to extract shadow detail than pull in highlights that are blown. Sort of a safety factor, if you will. So, yes, it's very possible that many or most of your shots look underexposed directly out of the camera.

In addition, every profile for every paper incorporates an assumed light viewing condition for the resulting prints. That viewing condition is usually some sort of standardized, color corrected and luminance corrected specification. You can look them up if you want, but I don't have them off the top of my head. A lot of us use lights like the Solux tungsten 4700Kelvin lights or the equivalent. When you're viewing your prints under random room light, that viewing light is very likely not anywhere near the spec for viewing that the paper profiles were made under. This could make your prints appear lighter than normal, darker than normal, or, if you're lucky, approximately right.

But judging the situation after slogging through all these posts, it does seem like an overall exposure problem is at the root of your printer woes, particularly when you are saying that the test files are printing more or less right and your own files are not.

I may be mistaken, but I thought I saw in one of your posts that you were in Southern California. If that's true, I invite you to drop by my studio and we'll make a couple of test prints on my Epson 9900 which has been custom profile and view them on a reference calibrated monitor. Really, the only way to properly judge digital camera exposure is on a hardware calibrated screen in a color managed application. I could tell you a lot in a very few short minutes after seeing your files and making a couple of prints. The west side of L.A. awaits.

Peter

Peter, thank you for your input and generous offer. I will shot you my e-mail address. I am on West side almost daily.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Bryan Conner on March 09, 2012, 01:31:15 am
I went to DpReview just to get a different look at ZoranC and how he handles himself.  Well, it is just like here.  Everyone that makes an attempt to help is told that they are not paying attention to what he has already written in a previous post.  Other people have a chip on their shoulder and are treating him like a child.  BLAH BLAH BLAH. 



Zoran:  Why have you not posted a single image in your quest to solve this problem?   Show us two images:  The file that you print.  And a photo of the print on the printer tray.

I double dog dare you.  Prove everyone wrong.  Prove yourself right.  Prove that you are not a troll only getting your jollies by making people angry. 

Put up or shut up.

One other thing?  At the top of most computer applications, there is a word "Help".  Have you taken the time to read and research the documentation that you already have?  Have you paid attention to the information that the companies who produced your equipment has provided?  HAVE YOU READ THE INSTRUCTIONS/OWNERS MANUALS?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 01:38:40 am
I went to DpReview just to get a different look at ZoranC and how he handles himself.  Well, it is just like here.  Everyone that makes an attempt to help is told that they are not paying attention to what he has already written in a previous post.  Other people have a chip on their shoulder and are treating him like a child.  BLAH BLAH BLAH. 

Bryan, you did all of that effort for little me? I am so flattered. But don't you think your doing that indicates you are not interested in topic but instead in doing what psycho stalker would do? Is that how you get your jollies?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 01:41:54 am
I would have had a nice day but photo of a nice day printed too dark so I will have the nice night and I wish you same :)

Uh huh...I guess you still haven't "groked" what I'm talking about. Know about Heinlein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein)? If you did, then you would quit...continuing is only a statement on you, not me. You wont win (cause the deck is stacked against you...the more you flail, the more I win). Nothing you say will impact me, only you...at the click of a button, you are gone. Want to test me? You lose...

Now, do you honestly want to learn? Then correct your behavior...if not, then go away. You aren' "useful" at this point. And YOU lose...not me...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Farmer on March 09, 2012, 01:46:20 am
Step away from the troll, guys.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 01:47:11 am
Uh huh...I guess you still haven't "groked" what I'm talking about. Know about Heinlein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein)? If you did, then you would quit...continuing is only a statement on you, not me. You wont win (cause the deck is stacked against you...the more you flail, the more I win). Nothing you say will impact me, only you...at the click of a button, you are gone. Want to test me? You lose...

Now, do you honestly want to learn? Then correct your behavior...if not, then go away. You aren' "useful" at this point. And YOU lose...not me...

Bullying never phased me.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 01:53:16 am
Bullying never phased me.

Well, it will when your IP address is banned...just saying...some of us have "super powers" some of us don't. I do, you don't. Wanna get into a mudsligging contest? Cool, you lose...wanna learn? Change your behavior or leave...your choice. Take it to the hilt? You lose doode...bye...have a nice day now. Have fun with your new printer (which prints too dark–the reason which escapes you).

Oh, then you won't be able to post on the For Sale subforum...wanna go down that road?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Wayne Fox on March 09, 2012, 01:53:45 am
Bryan, you did all of that effort for little me? I am so flattered. But don't you think your doing that indicates you are not interested in topic but instead in doing what psycho stalker would do? Is that how you get your jollies?
There is no topic here.  This entire thread is not a topic, but a simple exercise in futility by people that DO know what they are talking about (hey, a lot of us get paid to teach this stuff) and you who can't figure out what the heck you are doing and refuse to accept that fact and continue to argue for who knows what reason ...

All  you have done in many of our cases (check the forums going back, you'll see who on this forum has the knowledge and has helped the most people, they have tried to help you) is insure we won't take questions of yours in the future seriously.  In my case, I've added you to my ignore list so I won't see anything you post on this forum in the future (and I'm pretty tolerant, I only have one other person on this list whose only contributions is to post when he puts a new article on his website, but never actually contributes to anything on the forum).

If you want the answer to your question, admit you don't really know what you are doing, admit you are actually willing to listen to people that do, throw away all preconceptions and expectations you currently have, get the chip off of your shoulder (yes, you are the one with the chip) and then read this thread very carefully.  The answers are all there.

And don't bother quoting and responding to anything I've said in this message because as of now I won't be seeing anything you post here on LuLa.  good luck, and bye.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on March 09, 2012, 01:54:30 am
 I am starting to miss John Koerner ;)
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 02:00:27 am
And don't bother quoting and responding to anything I've said in this message because as of now I won't be seeing anything you post here on LuLa.  good luck, and bye.

Oh I never let anybody off that easy...I enjoy this shyte...I'm in for the duration. It's entertaining (for me, maybe not for others and I understand that and generally agree). But I really seem to love buttheads like this. They don't (won't) win...in the end they go away (or get banned). That has yet to happen (even the internet isn't instantaneous) Chris? Clean up on isle 3??? Vaporize this asshole? (I would appreciate it). Put this putz out of his misery...please.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 02:01:19 am
Well, it will when your IP address is banned...just saying...some of us have "super powers" some of us don't. I do, you don't. Wanna get into a mudsligging contest? Cool, you lose...wanna learn? Change your behavior or leave...your choice. Take it to the hilt? You lose doode...bye...have a nice day now. Have fun with your new printer (which prints too dark–the reason which escapes you).

Oh, then you won't be able to post on the For Sale subforum...wanna go down that road?

Do you really believe membership in this or any other 'net forum is so important to people that they would rather swallow their dignity and take the bullying without objecting over it than losing the membership? People don't do it even when stakes are much higher.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 02:05:45 am
Do you really believe membership in this or any other 'net forum is so important to people that they would rather swallow their dignity and take the bullying without objecting over it than losing the membership?

What "dignity"?

You lost that many posts ago...if you want to get your money back for this forum, you go ahead and ask for it...you'll get your money's worth (which is exactly zero dooode).

What part of "these aren't the droids you were looking for" did you not understand?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 02:11:32 am
What "dignity"? You lost that many posts ago...

I was not one that was "bending himself over helping" by asking questions that clearly show not even very first post was read, you were.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: desy on March 09, 2012, 02:14:31 am
Wow, who would have thought that an unpublished Samuel Beckett play would turn up on the LL printing forum?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 02:21:01 am
Wow, who would have thought that an unpublished Samuel Beckett play would turn up on the LL printing forum?

Good answer...I like that. But, ZoranC isn't long for this world (my prediction). His behavior isn't what I would call, "ready for prime time". He still doesn't know what he doesn't know, ya know? Yet he seems to be highly motivated in telling people what he thinks we don't know...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Geraldo Garcia on March 09, 2012, 02:29:10 am
Folks,

Are you feeding the troll just for fun?  :D

Best regards.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 02:30:59 am
Are you feeding the troll just for fun?  :D

Yes, sorry is that a bad thing?

Even trolls need feeding...sometimes because it teaches others how to behave or not behave...we'll see how long ZoranC keeps up his diatribe (my guess. isn't all that long)...

But hey, I've been wrong before (a few times, but in this case I don't suspect it'll be long before we're clear of this, uh, "person")..

Just saying'
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: desy on March 09, 2012, 02:31:48 am
"His plan therefore was not to refuse admission to the idea, but to keep it at bay until his mind was ready to receive it. Then let it in and pulverise it. Obliterate the bast*rd."
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:09:12 am
...Obliterate the bast*rd.

Yep, I'm, ok with that...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 03:17:35 am
"Obliterate the bast*rd."

For some reason when people are online they tend to be big on words flexing incredible virtual muscles through their words but somehow in real world they turn out to be much smaller in all areas  (muscle etc wise) speaking much more softly and weighing their words carefully. Go figure why.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:28:10 am
For some reason when people are online they tend to be big on words flexing incredible virtual muscles through their words but somehow in real world they turn out to be much smaller in all areas  (muscle etc wise) speaking much more softly and weighing their words carefully. Go figure why.

Uh huh. You've never met me in person, huh? The phrase "whip your ass" comes to mind...I've been the exact same way since well, 1985/1986 (when I joined CompuServe and the whole "online experience"). Actually, I do work out with a personal trainer 3x a week. I'm not weak...wanna test me? You lose...

Doode, you can't win, quite trying (before you get booted off). Seriously, what do you hope to gain? Your self respect? Gone (a while ago). Some sort of trumped up personal attack? Who cares about you? Really, you won't win...quit trying and move on.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Really, you lose, we win. Game over...go away, already...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 03:31:11 am
Uh huh. You've never met me in person, huh? The phrase "whip your ass" comes to mind...I've been the exact same way since well, 1985/1986 (when I joined CompuServe and the whole "online experience"). Actually, I do work out with a personal trainer 3x a week. I'm not weak...wanna test me? You lose...

Call me impressed.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:36:54 am
Do you understand what I'm saying? Really, you lose, we win. Game over...go away, already...

Actually, I kinda hope the moderator doesn't wipe you out too soon...it's so much fun to play with you...ball's in your court, whatcha got?

(note: it better be better game than what you've shown so far...kinda weak. Not what I would call "Linsanity").

Course I'm not much of a Knicks fan, more of a Bulls fan...yeah ok, Magic beat them tonite, we'll see what transpires in the next few games. Chicago still has the best record in the NBA East (as of tonite). Hope you're not a Lakers or Clippers fan (if you are on the West Coast). Kinda sucks being you huh?

Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:38:01 am
Call me impressed.

Actually, call you "depressed" is more like it...just sayin'

Have a nice day dooode...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 03:39:24 am
Actually, I kinda hope the moderator doesn't wipe you out too soon...it's so much fun to play with you...ball's in your court, whatcha got?

(note: it better be better game than what you've shown so far...kinda weak. Not what I would call "Linsanity").

Course I'm not much of a Knicks fan, more of a Bulls fan...yeah ok, Magic beat them tonite, we'll see what transpires in the next few games. Chicago still has the best record in the NBA East (as of tonite). Hope you're not a Lakers or Clippers fan (if you are on the West Coast). Kinda sucks being you huh?

Yawn.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:40:10 am
Yawn.

That the best you've got? Yawn? That's your game?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 03:41:26 am
Actually, call you "depressed" is more like it...just sayin'

Yup, after reading posts you made I _am_ depressed. Over state human kind is in.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 03:42:08 am
That the best you've got? Yawn?

Sorry but that's all your post evoked in me.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:43:27 am
Over state human kind is in.

Is that supposed to mean something?  "Over state human kind is in"? Really? did you have a typo bud? Or is your language failing you?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 03:48:39 am
Is that supposed to mean something?  "Over state human kind is in"? Really? did you have a typo bud? Or is your language failing you?

Incredible, you actually can once in a while pay attention to what has been written in one's post without having to ask for repeat number of times?! It's a miracle!
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:50:10 am
It's a miracle!

Nope, after the tons of useless posts you've made, you've finally got my full attention...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 03:55:07 am
Nope, after the tons of useless posts you've made, you've finally got my full attention...

It making tons of not helpful posts is what gets someone's attention you were definitely working hard on getting my full attention long time ago.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 03:58:10 am
It making tons of not helpful posts is what gets someone's attention you were definitely working hard on getting my full attention long time ago.

Wanna correct that to read "if", since "it" doesn't make much sense...kinda like most of your posts in this thread. You can edit your post (but of course the rest of us are kinda laughing at your error–not for the first time I might add). Learn how to write...

Really, you want the last word?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 04:03:52 am
Ok...it's 3:01 AM Central time...I'll pick it up in the AM in case you want to keep flailing (or if the moderator hasn't stepped in). Have fun while I go off to bed...you're not off the hook, you just have some time to play by yourself. Hope you use it well...

Nite...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: ZoranC on March 09, 2012, 04:09:03 am
Wanna correct that to read "if", since "it" doesn't make much sense...kinda like most of your posts in this thread. You can edit your post (but of course the rest of us are kinda laughing at your error–not for the first time I might add). Learn how to write...

Really, you want the last word?

No need to correct it, I am sure you understood it quite well.

But if you want to make yourself helpful with English when you couldn't with original topic of this thread, by my guest. I will just keep on wondering why one can often see certain profile of netizens focus their attention to other side's command of English once their efforts elsewhere fail. Is it in attempt to continue feeling superior? In either case it is ridiculous. Especially because if they ever tried to get command of my native language result would be much worse than my use of English as a second language.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 04:15:01 am
Is it in attempt to continue feeling superior?

Nope...just trying real hard to understand EXACLY what you are sayin'....thought I was gonna let this pass? Sorry, it's 3:13am but I happened to check to see if you had posted...ok, now I'm gone (maybe)...

:~)

Really you still holding out any hope? Really? Gives me the chuckles...

Opps...seems like it's 3:18am and I edited my last post...just to correct "lest" to let...seems like even I can make a typo (at this time of day).
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Tony Jay on March 09, 2012, 04:40:40 am
I have read the full thread.

Wayne Fox is right.
The original premise from the initial post is completely illogical.

Until the OP does his homework to understand how digital workflow works there is no way that anything that any of us say that will convince the OP of the error in his ways.

Regards

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Schewe on March 09, 2012, 05:10:08 am
Until the OP does his homework to understand how digital workflow works there is no way that anything that any of us say that will convince the OP of the error in his ways.

Yeah, pretty much, Tony...but whatcha gonna do> The OP thinks he knows what he doesn't know and he questions everything anything anybody posts to try to correct him?

It's not like he's gonna suddenly see the light (although I hold out some remote hope)...and see that what he "thinks" he wants to see is impossible...but you never know. Well, maybe we do know what will happen...Let's see what happens...
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Tony Jay on March 09, 2012, 05:21:22 am
One can only try to lead a horse to water...

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Steve House on March 09, 2012, 06:13:17 am
I don't know how I can say this more clearly than I already had but I will try: No, shot is not underexposed and no, I am not using monitor as my reference point for judging, I am comparing print to scene itself.
How do you KNOW the shot is properly exposed in the camera?  Before printing the image you're looking at it on something in order to compare it to your scene and judge the exposure, right ... either a computer monitor or the camera's LCD display?  How do you know the device you're viewing it on when you make the conclusion "this shot is correctly exposed" is actually showing the image to you accurately?  If the image was actually one stop too dark but the device you're evaluating it on was one stop too bright, the dark image would LOOK correct when it isn't.  If you then print it on a printer that accurately reproduces what the file is calling for and compare it to your scene, the print will look one stop darker.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Tony Jay on March 09, 2012, 06:22:03 am
I am not sure logic will help here.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Steve House on March 09, 2012, 06:27:01 am

Neil thank you for your links but once again I am feeling I am not being heard. In your blog you talk about prints not matching what is displayed on monitor. Let's please stop focusing on monitor for a second and focus on exposure and print.

Do we or don't we agree that if I take a correctly exposed shot of objects against wall, immediately print that shot without any post processing on reasonably white/reflective paper (whatever is the right term, I hope you understand what I am trying to illustrate) and immediately put that print next to those same objects on same wall under same light I should expect that that print look close enough in brightness level to scene instead of being _significantly_ darker?
 No, you are not correct in that assumption.  The tones in the perfectly printed image made from a perfectly exposed image file will be noticably darker than the corresponding tones in the original scene.  Photography can never reproduce the dynamic range of the original scene, it only represents it as an abstraction that our brain can correlate to the reality it represents.  The quality of light bouncing off a red ball will be totally different from the quality of light bouncing off the blob of red ink on a piece of paper that represents that ball, even if we place the ball and the print side-by-side and illuminate them with the same light source.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Tony Jay on March 09, 2012, 06:41:29 am
Steve your thoughts are good.

I doubt that you will be heard though.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Bryan Conner on March 09, 2012, 07:14:31 am
Zoran.....where is your image and the photo of your print?  I told you to put up or shut up.  I hope that you hang around here for a few more days.  You are getting your logical lunch eaten here by many....it is funny. 
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Bryan Conner on March 09, 2012, 07:15:45 am
Bryan, you did all of that effort for little me? I am so flattered. But don't you think your doing that indicates you are not interested in topic but instead in doing what psycho stalker would do? Is that how you get your jollies?

I see that you are not taking my challenge.  You have nothing to put up because you have no image.....you are indeed a TROLL  and you know it. 
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Bryan Conner on March 09, 2012, 07:16:43 am
I am starting to miss John Koerner ;)

Now that is funny!  I had forgotten about him.  AHHHHHH...the good old days.  LOL
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: chichornio on March 09, 2012, 08:24:08 am
This thread has been an "Advanced Master Class" on how to argue in English. My first languague is Spanish, so thanks ZoranC to leadind this thread to that point. All the questions and answers could lead to make a great Seinfied script!
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: dgberg on March 09, 2012, 08:51:09 am
Since Mr. ZoranC is having a little fun with us,it is time to have a little fun with him.
My son is a psych major grad student,here is his take on ZoranC after reading these threads.

Age - 20 something possibly early thirties. Although argumentive attitude is more reflective of a teenager.
Education - Poor English and grammar suggests high school drop out.
Photography - Knows basic terminology but has little to no understanding what happens after he presses the shutter.
Printing -  Thinks  that the purchase of a 3880 automatically makes him an expert.
Social skills - Was a loner in school with no friends and fails to play well with others! :) :) :)

Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: TSJ1927 on March 09, 2012, 09:21:27 am
I am almost sure the problem lies with the Printer.  The Printer probably has a couple of loose screws.  This will always result "Dark" output.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on March 09, 2012, 09:25:17 am
I am not sure logic will help here.
I am sure logic will not help here!

This has been entertaining.
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: Randy Carone on March 09, 2012, 09:32:51 am
Zoran,

Have any of the suggestions embedded in this thread helped you with the issue of dark prints? Inquiring minds want to know because there have been posts here that can solve your problem. Any improvement?
Title: Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
Post by: michael on March 09, 2012, 09:34:16 am
Wow. I go away for a few days (PODAS workshop) and look what happens.

OK kids, time to call it a day. Mr ZoranC is not banned (yet) but any further nonsense and he will be.

I'm locking this thread so that it fades away into the archives as quickly as possible.

Michael