Nikon D800 is outed with pics and specs. 36 MPX

[mmurph]

the new (Canon) 24-70 we don't know but i presume it's been updated to have the resolving power

The MTF graphs look pretty impressive.  I know I relied on my 24-70 for about 70% of my fashion work and really enjoyed it. The new lens looks like it should be steller.

I am hoping that they updated the 3 lenses they just released in anticipation of a new high MP camera?

[John Camp]

After switching back and forth between the posted pictures from the D800 and the Pentax 645, I have to honestly say that I don't see much advantage at all for the Pentax. It depends on where on the images you look, it seems to me. Parts of the Pentax image are quite soft, although I suppose some of that could be motion blur, given the slow speeds at which the Pentax images were shot. (Look at the broken birch trees at the bottom of the shot on the far right.)

I'm certainly not an expert in this, but wouldn't a shot with lot of various shades of green be an advantage over a shot that's mostly black, grey and white, when looking for edges? (Aren't greens given more weight by sensors?)

I think the three most modern Nikon f2.8 zooms will handle this sensor quite nicely, and a number of primes will too, without having to go to Zeiss.

[BernardLanguillier]

I think it is worth mentioning that many of the sample shots out there were taken between July and September of 2011.  One linked above was the 14-24 zoom 15mm at f/8.0  

At least the first snowy landscape looks like it was shot no later than early June from the typical spring snow condition in the distance but I would actually tend think it was shot even earlier since there is fresh snow on the trees (which should mean no later than early May, probably April).

I could be wrong and this could be fall 2011, but I would be surprised if that were the case.

Cheers,
Bernard

[mmurph]

Interesting.

For the 800E, the first 4 of 6 images have EXIF data from September 2011.  The last two images with snow have EXIF data from the same day in December 2011.

Some of the 800 images are dated all of the way back to July.

Still Rob Galbraith said he was not allowed to post any images because the firmware was not finalized.

I was one of those who pre-ordered the Kodak 14N the day that was announced.  As we waited for samples and release we started to see increasing numbers of oddities with it's images, which was a shame.  I had to cancel my pre-order, as did many others.  I know some folks here were able to make a go of it, I think Rainer? But Kodak kept tweaking firmware to try to fix issues over the next 2 years, partly du to the lack of an AA filter. But taht was at lower resolution.

I don't think we have that in this case at all. Everything looks mostly solid so far.  But as small glitches are discovered through the Alpha and Beta testors, and updated firmwares make their through testing and into production, we may see images a bit better than what we have seen so far.

I don't think either Canon or Nikon have ever missed too far on core image quality or functionality, just a few smaller hiccups that I recall.

FWIW, there is an example of moire patterns in the 800E taht are not apparent on the 800 on Nikons site (in the kimono image):

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d800/features01.htm#a12

They also have a comparison of the detail in the stone walkway between the 800 and 800E.  It is not clear how agressively they sharpened the 800 image (if at all) to try to compensate.  I know Canon has recommended some very aggressive sharpening in the 1 series in the past. This isn't direct, but somone else quoting a white paper:

"There is a Canon white paper that recommends USM settings of 0.3, 300, 0 to restore the sharpness that was lost in the filter"

[BernardLanguillier]

Interesting.

For the 800E, the first 4 of 6 images have EXIF data from September 2011.  The last two images with snow have EXIF data from the same day in December 2011.

I could be wrong then.

Cheers,
Bernard

[KevinA]

What I don't get is how and why Nikon posts a some of these demo images. Some of them are horrible and show nothing of the camera or in a negative way could even say the camera can't do better on pixel level. (Which I think is not true, because you can see what it can do in some samples) just silly....

When it comes to Canon, I don't think many will start selling their Canon stuff so soon... Or at least it would be stupid. There will be a 30Mp plus camera sooner than many might think.

Really? I'm not sure anymore. 1Ds users don't feel the X is a real upgrade, if Canon made the 5d 30+mp I think Ds users would buy that and rob the X of sales.The X is touted as a D & Ds upgrade.
I don't think Nikon will dump the D3X customers in the hope they buy a D4, a new D3X will most likely provide Canon Ds users with an upgrade they wanted. Not many of us D/Ds users are exactly in love with the cameras, we have learnt to live with them,  and I've earned good money with it, but it has never been the camera I thought it could or should of been.
I can't see a new 5D having video output like the new Nikons, that would make the increasingly looking pointless 300c even more pointless. Canon look to be more worried about treading on other Canon toes than they do about the competition.
Nikon is ticking more boxes for me. I could spend £5k on Nikon 800 and lenses to get a basic system up and running alongside my Canon, that is not a lot of money in the digital grand scheme.

Kevin.

[torger]

Really? I'm not sure anymore. 1Ds users don't feel the X is a real upgrade, if Canon made the 5d 30+mp I think Ds users would buy that and rob the X of sales.The X is touted as a D & Ds upgrade.

I don't think 5D mark 3 or whatever it will be called will be the high res camera, it will more likely be a 20-22 mpix with good auto-focus and decent speed. Probably a bit faster than D800, possibly a bit better at high ISO, but lower resolution. An all-around camera for those that cannot afford 1DX.

Some may have forgot, but Canon has actually announced in November that there is a 4K video DSLR in development, "the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications". Canon's own picture of the camera showed a pro body (integrated battery grip). This could be a high megapixel sensor used in binned mode when shooting video. Binned 4:1 would yield about 40 megapixels.

[Chairman Bill]

Given the high number of pixels in the D800, I think there is still room for a D700 variant with a higher-rated sensor, say around the 18 MP range, with the new Expeed 3 engine, but otherwise as the D700 is now.

[ihv]

At this point I believe the new D800(e) is the new D3x.

I don't think Nikon will dump the D3X customers in the hope they buy a D4, a new D3X will most likely provide Canon Ds users with an upgrade they wanted.

[BJL]

A higher resolution Canon "5D Mk III", of say 30-40MP would not steal many sales from the 1DX, because the dominant market for the latter is driven by its high speed performance (frame rate, AF, ISO) performance. The strategy of avoiding cannibalization by not offering a popular new product option is the fallacy that bought Kodak down ["no digital, it will steal from our film sales"], and hurt Xerox ["the computers with a mouse and GUI, email and laser printer developed at PARC will steal from our photocopier revenues"]. If you do not "eat your own", the competition will. Nikon is doing a wise thing, offering the D800 and D4 with clear advantages over each other, serving different use cases.

That leaves the question of whether Nikon or Canon will offer a third variant: their lower resolution 36x24mm sensor in a lower spec., lower speed body, akin to the D700. I suspect and hope not: people spending about $3000 on a camera body should learn that a higher pixel count image converts nicely to an image of lower resolution, reduced noise, and improved DR. You cannot however convert in the other direction, adding resolution that is not there.

[wthurman]

I just pre-ordered the E model; am selling a piece of Leica glass I don't use to finance it so the purchase is a near wash.  I use NX2 in addition to PS5 so it should work out, moire-wise.  I'd have not thought, a few months ago, that my D3x might become a backup body (though I'll continue using the big camera underwater as I've an Aquatica housing for it and am in no rush to buy a new one.)  Beware the technology merry-go-round...

I have the 14-24/2.8 which will get a lot of use on the new body.  In the prime department, there's the 50/1.4, the 85/1.4, and the new 105/2.8 macro VR to pair with it.  We'll see how the 24-70/2.8 fares- that's been my go-to lens on a D700 body and I hope it works well on the D800E.  I've not used that lens much on the D3x; shooting underwater I use the 16mm/2.8 FE and the 105 pretty exclusively.

Hoping to receive the camera in early May but don't know where I am in B&H's queue.

[Hans Kruse]

Really? I'm not sure anymore. 1Ds users don't feel the X is a real upgrade, if Canon made the 5d 30+mp I think Ds users would buy that and rob the X of sales.The X is touted as a D & Ds upgrade.
I don't think Nikon will dump the D3X customers in the hope they buy a D4, a new D3X will most likely provide Canon Ds users with an upgrade they wanted. Not many of us D/Ds users are exactly in love with the cameras, we have learnt to live with them,  and I've earned good money with it, but it has never been the camera I thought it could or should of been.
I can't see a new 5D having video output like the new Nikons, that would make the increasingly looking pointless 300c even more pointless. Canon look to be more worried about treading on other Canon toes than they do about the competition.
Nikon is ticking more boxes for me. I could spend £5k on Nikon 800 and lenses to get a basic system up and running alongside my Canon, that is not a lot of money in the digital grand scheme.

Kevin.

I think what has happened is now quite clear. It started with the Sony A900 and Canon 5D mkII. These full frame cameras appealed to a lot of photographers and to such a degree that the market for D3X and 1Ds mkIII cameras basically vanished.

What I see is that Nikon has realized this and the D800 is the replacement for the D3X. Canon said the 1DX is the replacement for the 1D and the 1Ds lines, but I don't believe this is really the truth. A 5D mkII followon equivalent to the D800 will de facto be the 1Ds followon. In order to compete with Nikon a decent if not the same AF system from the 1DX and dual memory cards and weather sealing is needed. And a resolution similar. It looks to me as the D800 is basically a D7000 sensor scaled to full frame. If Canon did the same, scaling the 18MP APS-C sensor (improved of course with better DR) to full frame and a 7D type body with enhancements we would have a 46MP Canon hirez camera. Probably this would be a 4-5fps camera. It would not compete with the 1DX really.

Btw. I have a 1Ds mkIII and didn't expect 4 years ago that the 5D mkII came with basically the same sensor and better live view etc. and I guess recent buyers of the D3X didn't expect this is be soon rendered almost worthless...well so it is.

[Chairman Bill]

... That leaves the question of whether Nikon or Canon will offer a third variant: their lower resolution 36x24mm sensor in a lower spec., lower speed body, akin to the D700. I suspect and hope not: people spending about $3000 on a camera body should learn that a higher pixel count image converts nicely to an image of lower resolution, reduced noise, and improved DR. You cannot however convert in the other direction, adding resolution that is not there.

But a lower resolution sensor, à la that used in the new D4, in a D700 form, might make some considerable sense.

[BJL]

But a lower resolution sensor, à la that used in the new D4, in a D700 form, might make some considerable sense.

Maybe; in particular if it could offer a higher frame rate than the D800's 4fps while staying well below the D4's price --- and that seems doable. But as far as IQ advantages at the lower resolution (still 16MP!), that mostly depends on how D4 sensor IQ compares to results from the D800 processed down to the same resolution. Which by the way, could involve converting down to a three color per pixel format like JPEG at a lower pixel count than that of the Bayer CFA output of the lower resolution body: an 8MP JPEG conversion from the D800 should roughly match the resolution given by the 16MP D4, by the usual "two Bayer pixels = one full RGB pixel" rule of thumb. Do you remember how good 6MP images from the Kodak 14N looked, despite the concerns about noise in its full resolution output?

[BernardLanguillier]

But a lower resolution sensor, à la that used in the new D4, in a D700 form, might make some considerable sense.

It would probably be a very low cost development for Nikon.
- No extra design,
- Very little extra validation,
- Very little extra production equipment needed.

We could expect it to sell at the same price point as the D800. The only question, how would they call it?... how about D800H?  

A combo made up of a D800E + D800H would be any photographer's dream IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard

[kers]

But a lower resolution sensor, à la that used in the new D4, in a D700 form, might make some considerable sense.

Not from the Nikon standpoint. Where is the competition?
It would ruin the D4 sales.
If it will come it will be later than 1 year from now.

[BJL]

Not from the Nikon standpoint. Where is the competition?
It would ruin the D4 sales.

Maybe not if it is sufficiently differentiated from the real key selling points of the D4  its very high frame rate and AF capabilities, and maybe the integrated vertical grip, extremely rugged construction. That would mean finding a niche between 4fps of the D800 and the 10 or 11 fps of the D4.

Nikon did do this before with the D3/D700.

But I tend to think that two models, D4 and D800, is enough in this relative low volume sector compared to DX format: the extra sales won by adding more models to come slightly closer to the perfect camera for more customers have to be weighed against the extra costs. Look at how Apple keeps iPhone profits high in part by targeting a few models at a few high volume, high profit sectors, not trying to meet the desires of every single smart phone buyer, and accepting that some customers will this be lost to other brands.

[Christoph C. Feldhaim]

They should make a mirrorless FF capable of M-Mount lenses with life view and microlenses.
Maybe next X-mas ? 
I wonder where they make their money  - bodies or glass?

[BernardLanguillier]

They should make a mirrorless FF capable of M-Mount lenses with life view and microlenses.
Maybe next X-mas ?  
I wonder where they make their money  - bodies or glass?

The success of the NEX must not have remained un-noticed at Nikon.

It should be very clear by now that the 1 series was never intended to compete with the NEX, it was targeting the lifestyle shooters who have been buying 4/3 cameras.

The obvious segment to target now is compact FF cameras with super high low light image quality and blasing fast AF, probably EVF.

Now the options for Nikon are:
- Release the D800H I mentioned above (still possible and in fact likely late 2012, early 2013). This makes a lot of sense at it enables them to amortize the cost of the D4 sensor development on a much larger series,
- Follow Pentax with a mirror-less camera designed to use F mount lenses, I would be surprised if Nikon went this route,
- Develop yet another mount with a shorter distance for a rangefinder like design that would be very compact. This would require the development of 4 new fixed focal lenses (24, 35, 50 and 80mm). It would be able to accept F lenses with an adapter.

Considering the clear positioning of Nikon as a high end market leader and their ability to listen to market needs, option 3 sounds extremely likely. The only question is when and I would say 2013.

Cheers,
Bernard

[leeonmaui]

#$%@^*&$ all those camera companies!

After eating ramen for 6 months and plunking down 8500 bucks on the Pentax 645d, and spending a few thousand more on lenses and filters
(I was saving for a Phase one back, thank god for small favors!) I was happily snapping away, only slightly perturbed when thoughts of the Pentax 645 25mm would slip into my head (digitally optimized read: really expensive!)  I had been convinced after waiting years that neither Canon nor Nikon would put a big sensor into one of their cameras, now this!

hmm, Nikon has that really cool 135mm f/2 DC lens... couple of primes...oh a 70-200mm f/2.8 you don't say...

Oh the horror, the horror....