Epson 7900 from the inside - out

[jmlamont]

I should perhaps clarify my invitation to action:

I believe we should assume the best intentions on Epson's part, unless and until proven otherwise publicly. No anger, no talk of legal action. Not at this time anyway. Epson has been a good friend to many of us for many years, with marvelous printers that have let us do things that we could not otherwise have done.

However, we should not acquiesce when even a good friend does bad things; we should not accept an unjust situation. And I believe the way forward here is to make public what is currently largely secret. Calmly, without anger, without threat. I hear several of us say that people have been in private, unsatisfactory talks with senior Epson management. Yet I do not see these talks made public, I do not know what was said, nor to whom. So I do not really know what to believe, if I am honest with myself and quell my growing sense of unease and incipient anger.

My suggestion is that those of us who understand Epson's management structure formulate and then send a public e-mail with the URL for this thread and a summary of its concerns to someone as high up as possible in the marketing executive, with copies perhaps to other senior Epson sales executives. Send a friendly but firm e-mail expressing our concern and belief that Epson will really want to do the right thing here. Send it in a way that should Epson not respond, or not respond properly, there can be no doubts as to their intentions by even 3rd party individuals who do not want to get into a "he-says-she-says" fight. Then if it comes to it, we have something we can fight with to win the marketing campaign with the broad mass of people who won't have the time or inclination to understand all the subtleties here.

The first step is for the knowledgeable members to identify who should be contacted...

[Alan Goldhammer]

This goes way beyond the OP... And for those of us who are in this predicament it's time for action – enough speculation. 

Take this threat of litigation somewhere else.  The OP was raising a valid issue and sharing a lot of good information with fellow forumites (the posted pictures were excellent).  If you don't like the way you have allegedly been treated by Epson you can pursue other options but I don't think that LuLa is the place to troll for parties to a "class action" suit which is probably doomed to failure.  I will repeat once more, "anecdote does not equal data."  Your constant complaining is getting to be quite tiresome.  If you don't like Epson, buy a Canon or HP printer; this is what the free market is all about.

[Mark D Segal]

Take this threat of litigation somewhere else.  The OP was raising a valid issue and sharing a lot of good information with fellow forumites (the posted pictures were excellent).  If you don't like the way you have allegedly been treated by Epson you can pursue other options but I don't think that LuLa is the place to troll for parties to a "class action" suit which is probably doomed to failure.  I will repeat once more, "anecdote does not equal data."  Your constant complaining is getting to be quite tiresome.  If you don't like Epson, buy a Canon or HP printer; this is what the free market is all about.

I agree with all of this.

Furthermore, no one should assume any of this has gone unnoticed where it matters. It would be most incredible if it did.

[Ken Doo]

Take this threat of litigation somewhere else.  The OP was raising a valid issue and sharing a lot of good information with fellow forumites (the posted pictures were excellent).  If you don't like the way you have allegedly been treated by Epson you can pursue other options but I don't think that LuLa is the place to troll for parties to a "class action" suit which is probably doomed to failure.  I will repeat once more, "anecdote does not equal data."  Your constant complaining is getting to be quite tiresome.  If you don't like Epson, buy a Canon or HP printer; this is what the free market is all about.

+1.  Thank you.

I'd much rather Eric's thread continue along the lines that he started it:  sharing/divulging the inner workings of the Epson 79/99** printers from the inside - out.  Not pointing fingers.  There are just too many different user and environmental variables, which isn't to say that those that have suffered or continue to suffer from out of warranty repairs/clogs do not have a legitimate complaint.  But I'd much rather see this thread follow along its original path, lightly humored tongue-in-cheek, while offering good tips on the workings and maintenance of Epson 79/99** printers as well as workflow/environmental tips.

Sure it sucks to see others have difficulties with their equipment (regardless of how small a minority that may be of total users), but I would rather learn from the pain of others (like Eric) who are willing to share, so that perhaps happy 79/99** owners like me can make educated efforts to maintain their printers and avoid similar fates, regardless of whether those potential head/resistant clog issues are statistically significant or not.  Epson doesn't have a recommended maintenance or user tips booklet (wish they did), but I've certainly collected a lot of valuable user tips and information along the way going years back to my old 9800.  Eric's given a lot of great tips/knowledge in this thread, and I'd like to see it continue in that same vein.

ken

[DeanChriss]

+1.  Thank you.

I'd much rather Eric's thread continue along the lines that he started it:  sharing/divulging the inner workings of the Epson 79/99** printers from the inside - out.  Not pointing fingers.  There are just too many different user and environmental variables, which isn't to say that those that have suffered or continue to suffer from out of warranty repairs/clogs do not have a legitimate complaint.  But I'd much rather see this thread follow along its original path, lightly humored tongue-in-cheek, while offering good tips on the workings and maintenance of Epson 79/99** printers as well as workflow/environmental tips.

Sure it sucks to see others have difficulties with their equipment (regardless of how small a minority that may be of total users), but I would rather learn from the pain of others (like Eric) who are willing to share, so that perhaps happy 79/99** owners like me can make educated efforts to maintain their printers and avoid similar fates, regardless of whether those potential head/resistant clog issues are statistically significant or not.  Epson doesn't have a recommended maintenance or user tips booklet (wish they did), but I've certainly collected a lot of valuable user tips and information along the way going years back to my old 9800.  Eric's given a lot of great tips/knowledge in this thread, and I'd like to see it continue in that same vein.

ken

+1 to that, and Mark's and Alan's comments. Eric started one of the most informative, useful, and entertaining threads I've seen. It'd be a shame for it to degenerate [into] a nonproductive blame game. If my printer died with one of these problems today the options I'd consider would be repair or replacement, and Eric's thread might make the decision easier. Litigation wouldn't be among my potential choices. Life is just too short, and I'd rather lick my wounds and get on with things.

[Eric Gulbransen]

I refused Dan Berg's very generous offer of a partial refund for buying his clogged (ever since I got it) 7900.  Chances are I wouldn't fight to hold anyone else responsible either.  This is my (and my genius buddy's) problem, we bought this printer used, I created this thread to share what we have learned.  I never expected to learn so much in return.  I am an enthusiast only here.  This is not my business.  I have very little printing experience.  So thank you for that added learning bonus everyone.

I have little grasp on corporate strategies or perspectives, so maybe this thought is unreasonable but I'll tell you what I would love - how about someone who knows the answers to our problems step up and share EXACTLY what we're up against and WHY.  Then perhaps they could suggest a more appropriate preventive maintenance strategy than our guess-work can produce, or we could formulate one on our own based on real facts rather than imagined ones.  It seems right now at least a few of us are printing with a lump in our throats, just waiting for the mysterious phantom menace of concrete clogs to turn from around a random corner and haunt our X900 heads until their death.  If anyone of you printers, who have NOT experienced concrete clogs on your X900 printer yet, feels this way you should be hoping for (asking for?) the same.

IF "Epson" is following along, and IF they know what causes these "clogs", it would sure be great if they chimed in to help.  




Who says they have to identify themselves?  




They could even use some random name to save us all, like maybe "Dorothy"






.

[jeverton]

Folks, I hope that the following will put the most irrational skeptic out there at peace. Jon Cone--whose expertise and integrity cannot be questioned, unless there is someone out there willing to question anything that is faulting Epson’s party line—just published a blog article that settles the matter.

http://www.inkjetmall.com/wordpress/product-use/epson-79009900-considerations/

We now have another source that confirms what has been said for a while, except that Cone has a source of data on a much larger scale. I do not see how it is possible to doubt anymore that there is a problem with the x900, and even the x890, which prompts Cone to recommend purchasing the additional warranty.

I encourage everybody here who has had any problem with an x900 or x890 printer to contact the lawyer who has posted here, and file papers with him. His course of action sounds brilliant and pertinent to me. And Eric, you qualify for joining the non-complaisant party, you too are a victim of Epson bad engineering and management of all this, you did nothing wrong, you bought this equipment based on their propaganda, they fooled us all.

I only really wish Epson would cooperate, they have known about this since at least January 4, 2012. The least that they could do under the circumstances if they wanted to avoid litigation would be to communicate with us.

I will just add that I am incredulous at those who talk of ambulance chasing in this situation. Valliant rescue of the wounded is more what comes to mind. I am personally thankful that a gentleman is willing to step up to the plate, especially when Epson does not. That those who have no stake in this (assuming that there is no one in that group) are so self-righteous about somebody sent by the providence, shows at best a lack of sensitivity and respect for those in need that makes me very suspicious of their real motives.

[bupalos]

I normally might agree with the "squeaky wheel"/invalid sample argument. In this case though, the thing that convinces me this a serious and hidden issue is the way epson and dealer techs respond. They are stunningly unsurprised when you report the problem, and at least in my case, unwilling to give me anything at all on a machine that was 1 month out of warranty, moderately low total count, and had been developing the problem over a few months prior. I offered to buy the 3 year, no dice. I offered to pay the parts if they threw in service, no dice. The tech at the dealer very much had the "ah, another one..." attitude and suggested it happened from too little use.

I bought a new head, changed it myself, and went along happily for several months, confident that the dealer tech's advice that it really NEEDED to be used frequently would keep me in action--I used it at least every 3 days. Then the exact same thing on a different channel. My best guess is that it is something systemic in the cleaning system that is damaging the head. But who knows. What I do know is that no one who deals with these machines at this point finds this experience at all surprising. Buyer beware.

[jack777]

Wow it took some time to read the entire thread. First of all I want to thank Eric and all you great guys here for sharing so much stuff about Epson x900 series. Erics pursuit for knowledge and working printer is really inspiring:)

So now it's time to add my little piece to the jigsaw. We are running two epson 9900 for more than two years now and have been generally happy with them. Before that we used 9880 on MIS inks and in the end it was a nightmare.

Our printers are moody... if they are happy they print for 8 hours straight without clogging but on a bad day you have to be ready for a few cleanings. Our rule of the thumb is: "nozzle check before printing" and "don't leave the printer unattended". Even if they have been printing fine for a long time, the minute you walk out of the room the banding will start. However annoying we assumed it's the nature of this fragile createrus. Every device has it's "dark side".

Now about clogs I would say they fall into few different categories:
- "weekend clogs" or "hangover clogs" - you come to work on Monday, run nozzle check and find few nozzles missing. 99% of the time 1 channel cleaning is enough. Very, very rarely half or entire color gets block but still one cleaning is enough. On the scale of annoyance 1/5
- "middle of the print clogs" - you begin to print and it's fine but halfway through some nozzles get clogged. Usually on only one channel. 3/5 on the scale of annoyance cause they are easy to spot.
- "between the prints clogs" - you print one big image and it's perfect so you go to make some tea. When you come back you see that the moment one imaged finished printing, printer cut off the paper and the next one started printing a dozen of your nozzles decided to have a break to. Sometimes half a channel, sometimes entire one... I find it really odd that in a matter of a few seconds, during a common procedure an entire color can be dropped... The funny things is that still one channel cleaning is usually enough. This is the moment when I start to wonder if they are really clogs.
- "wandering clogs" - I haven't seen them on 9900 but have been a huuuuuge problem on our 9880. It looks like this - you have few blocked nozzles on let's say C and PK (different channels so you have to initate full cleaning). You let the printer do it's job, print the nozzle check and... C and PK are good but Y and LK are screwed. And usually with every cleaning it got worse. The thing that helped was leaving the printer turned off for 1-2 hours.

There is one more thing we have noticed and haven't seend mentioned here. Sometimes (though rather rarely) when the nozzles get clogged you can see black "splatters" on the print. They are the size of a pinhead and in constant distance from each other. Our assumption was that when a nozzle is clogged and there is enough ink "in the back" it splatters. But then the nozzle should unclog right?

Just some food for thought.

Hope you like our "clog glossary"... But like I said in the beginning - we are happy with our 9900. Clients love the prints, clogged nozzles are an issue but they are easy to calculate to the costs. There are some other things which are annoying but in the end we are satisfied.

And once again - in the Old Continent, we're keeping our fingers crossed for Eric's head:)

[Alan Goldhammer]

Folks, I hope that the following will put the most irrational skeptic out there at peace. Jon Cone--whose expertise and integrity cannot be questioned, unless there is someone out there willing to question anything that is faulting Epson’s party line—just published a blog article that settles the matter.

http://www.inkjetmall.com/wordpress/product-use/epson-79009900-considerations/

We now have another source that confirms what has been said for a while, except that Cone has a source of data on a much larger scale. I do not see how it is possible to doubt anymore that there is a problem with the x900, and even the x890, which prompts Cone to recommend purchasing the additional warranty.

Wrong, there is no more data presented in the article than has been presented on this thread.  BTW, did you read the whole article?  The key thing is the following:  "My opinion is that an extended warranty is an excellent (if not necessary) investment. You need to purchase one before your printer is one year old – so pay attention!"  Why on earth anyone would make such a capital expenditure and not by an extended warranty/service contract is beyond me.

[bupalos]

I would like to purchase a 9900 myself, but as long as I do not hear a valid explanation for the situation here, and see a solution, I will stay away, or buy a Canon, which is probably the most sensible choice anyway.

I agree with the whole post Anton, but especially the last part. As a fellow that's been through 2 heads in 1.5 years of moderate use (something Epson does not blink an eye about when I've called) I will not trust any more Epson models until the track record is in (2-3 years down the line). The Canon's are an unbelievable deal now, I could have bought 3 of them for what I spent on this machine total and the print quality is finally equivalent now in the 8300.

I'll happily join a class action too, more to try and recoup all the time I spent in total stone wall conversations with Epson than anything else. If they would just subsidize replacement printheads, everything would be cool. I know that part isn't costing them anything like $1200 to produce, and they completely lost a ink-guzzling fanatic.

[bupalos]

Why on earth anyone would make such a capital expenditure and not by an extended warranty/service contract is beyond me.

The reason is because given the track record of other Epson models occupying this space, extended warranties have been no more necessary than their competitors. IMO, the x900 are proving not to have Epson's usual quality, and are also surprisingly expensive to repair. You live and learn, but I'm not sure it's 100% correct to throw the blame on trusting consumers like myself. From 7600 to 3800 I thought I had learned what to expect with this company. I now have no idea what to expect, and so yes, the $1400 warranty is not really as optional as you would think and has to be included as part of the real cost of this machine if you plan to use it more than 365 days. I'm assuming you have the extended warranty and I congratulate you on your foresight.

[rmyers]

 somebody sent by the providence

Really?  A lawyer trolling a forum looking to sue someone is sent by the providence?  If he was a long time contributing member that had finally reached the limit of his patience on a subject that drove him to want to pursue legal recourse, maybe I could accept that.  You think he read all 600 posts on this thread?  You think he searched this forum for other threads related to the subject?  Other forums?  If he did, let him state his case based on facts.  Providence?

You want to rush to action and slay the might corporate monster?  Start a new thread, please.

[Mark D Segal]

Normally, I do not buy extended warranties because when you think of it, the general case should be that the odds are against you, otherwise the sellers would not come out whole - one must assume they have no intention of losing money on that business. This is a classic insurance conundrum - a "game" of probabilities of occurrence and impact cost versus cost of the insurance. To make a rational decision about the value of buying such insurance, we need information that isn't being made available to us. We have partial knowledge of impact costs, but no reliable data on probability of occurrence, as web forums are not a reliable basis for making such determinations and the company isn't saying. So buying this insurance cannot be a well-informed decision and I have a penchant for well-informed decisions. Buying the insurance is a 100% deadweight loss unless/until I need to call on it; not buying it gives me a substantial - but unknown - probability of coming out ahead, because despite the unfortunate and regrettable negative experiences we are reading about, I think there are probably far more satisfied than dissatisfied users of these machines all over the world. So I held back. Time will tell.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Normally, I do not buy extended warranties because when you think of it, the general case should be that the odds are against you, otherwise the sellers would not come out whole - one must assume they have no intention of losing money on that business. This is a classic insurance conundrum - a "game" of probabilities of occurrence and impact cost versus cost of the insurance. To make a rational decision about the value of buying such insurance, we need information that isn't being made available to us. We have partial knowledge of impact costs, but no reliable data on probability of occurrence, as web forums are not a reliable basis for making such determinations and the company isn't saying. So buying this insurance cannot be a well-informed decision and I have a penchant for well-informed decisions. Buying the insurance is a 100% deadweight loss unless/until I need to call on it; not buying it gives me a substantial - but unknown - probability of coming out ahead, because despite the unfortunate and regrettable negative experiences we are reading about, I think there are probably far more satisfied than dissatisfied users of these machines all over the world. So I held back. Time will tell.

I have never bought an extended warranty on household appliances and have spent significant amount over the years on various upgrades (including a kitchen remodelling).  In these cases, I think your assessment is correct.  However with the case of the large format Epson printers, I suspect that most purchasers are either making or trying to make a living printing photographs and other graphics.  Since this is a business and down time is a critical factor as opposed to having a refrigerator go down, purchasing an extended warranty makes sense to me.  The costs can be amortized into the business and built into the costs of goods and services.  Maybe I'm wrong and a lot of these folks just like to print big for their own personal use (maybe they have lots of wall space that needs to be decorated) but if I'm not build the cost into the business plan.

[Garnick]

The reason is because given the track record of other Epson models occupying this space, extended warranties have been no more necessary than their competitors. IMO, the x900 are proving not to have Epson's usual quality, and are also surprisingly expensive to repair. You live and learn, but I'm not sure it's 100% correct to throw the blame on trusting consumers like myself. From 7600 to 3800 I thought I had learned what to expect with this company. I now have no idea what to expect, and so yes, the $1400 warranty is not really as optional as you would think and has to be included as part of the real cost of this machine if you plan to use it more than 365 days. I'm assuming you have the extended warranty and I congratulate you on your foresight.

My 9900 is rapidly approaching the expiry of its first extended warranty and I will be purchasing the second extension very soon.  By the end of the first year it became blatantly obvious to me that I had little choice but to buy the extended warranty.  Before I took possession of the printer I had already set up a '9900 Issue Log' based on posts here and on another forum.  That log now contains 97 entries, and when I call Epson I simply give them my phone number and they can than access the service history of this machine.  That's less time consuming than going through the whole routine every time I place a call, which is rather frequent.  My last call was about a week ago and as soon as the Tech Rep at Epson checked the history she said "Whoa"!  I caught that and commented on her response.  We both had a chuckle.  That call was not service related, but instead to verify the actual warranty extension date.  I then asked her to check with her supervisor and find out if it would be possible to get the third year for the same price it would have been had I initially purchased a two year extension.  The answer was no, since it is indeed a 'part' and 'part' price are fixed.  I thought that sounded like some sort of 'legal shmeegal', but didn't pursue it any further.  Reason being that perhaps with my 9900 service record Epson could possibly chose not to offer an extension this time round, so better to let it lie.  Although it is a lot of money to lay out for an insurance policy, I'm not sure where the $1400 figure comes into play.  In CDN dollars it is $930 + HST = $1050.90.  YES, a lot of $$$!!!  After this extension I'll be on my own, as are a lot of you folks, but thanks to this thread I have learned a few valuable lessons concerning some rather simple maintenance practices.  Most of these are of course procedures that I've been using for years on other printers, but somehow the 9900 seemed to be more prohibitive.  Thank you Eric.      

Gary

[clic]

Since this is a business and down time is a critical factor as opposed to having a refrigerator go down, purchasing an extended warranty makes sense to me.  The costs can be amortized into the business and built into the costs of goods and services.  Maybe I'm wrong and a lot of these folks just like to print big for their own personal use (maybe they have lots of wall space that needs to be decorated) but if I'm not build the cost into the business plan.

Alan, you assume that people who are in business make money, which is a line that I have heard before from people in the upper echelons at Epson ...  The fact is that anybody who is a photographer (and others with any ability to see and empathize) knows that way more photographers struggle than live on easy street.  Add to this that this printer has more interest for fine art than for commercial photography, and then we are really talking of people who do not make any money, struggle to make ends meet, and cannot afford whatever makes sense on a corporate business plan.

The bottom line is as Bupalos and others have mentioned: those x900 printers need an extended warranty (which is only becoming a know fact now) and consequently over the minimal expected life of such an equipment, the Epson model will cost about 4 times as much as the equivalent Canon one.  I wish Epson had told me that when I purchased my 9900.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Alan, you assume that people who are in business make money, which is a line that I have heard before from people in the upper echelons at Epson ...  The fact is that anybody who is a photographer (and others with any ability to see and empathize) knows that way more photographers struggle than live on easy street.  Add to this that this printer has more interest for fine art than for commercial photography, and then we are really talking of people who do not make any money, struggle to make ends meet, and cannot afford whatever makes sense on a corporate business plan.

I spent 90% of my working career in the corporate sector.  The companies I worked for had extended service contracts on every piece of office equipment.  My point stands.  I you are printing for commercial purposes make sure you have the necessary coverage on your equipment (you do have insurance on your cameras and lenses don't you?).  It's just good business sense.  If you are in my position and photograph as an avocation and sell a little bit every year, it's less of an imperative.  I also don't see any need to print beyond 17 inches wide.

[clic]

Alan,


How can you say that your argument stands when I just explained why it did not?  I have only been in the business of fine art photography for 40 years, most of them as a professional adult, so please...  I have made my meager living all my life from photography and nothing else, so please take me at my word: most photographers don't make money, especially these days, and can barely afford the equipment they need.  This is why many of them have switched career and work for the photo equipment industry or outside of photography altogether.

Now because one does not make enough money, does not mean that one does not have ambition.  I specialize for instance in large format prints from photo-journalistic style photographs, and given that my other characteristic is to deliver prints that are supposed to be among the best ones in the world, I do need to perform them myself on my own printer, until now a 9900.  Now none of that means that I make much money at it.  Given the marketing complexity of fine art it is very easy to loose money on a show, and it is not as easy as you think to include insurances of all sorts on equipment.  We are happy to just be able to purchase the very needed equipment in the first place.  The same goes for camera equipment, especially when like me, one uses film equipment whose value is hard to prove to an insurance company, not to mention that the insurance cost is prohibitive for that as well, unless again you are working for National Geographic on a regular basis, and that then becomes just part of your costs.

And actually, it is a good thing for Epson, that many photographers, professional and not, have been lured into believing that they could own their own printer because in the end that just boosts the sale of ink.  If that were not the case, if only the big guys could own an L.F. printer, that Epson division would not be half as profitable. 

Now the problem is that people have not been told the full story about these x900 printers, and clearly, the fact that the extended warranty de facto necessity was not made clear, is a big problem.  We bought printers as "Bugalos" mentioned, based on the the track record of the previous generations, and everything from Epson's marketing lead us to believe that the x900 was a quintessential achievement topping the previous ones.  So please don't try to fault us ( I don't even understand why you even try or want to), as the responsibility here can only come from the manufacturer.

[Ken Doo]

They could even use some random name to save us all, like maybe "Dorothy"






.

Well, I had really hoped that this thread would/could continue along the same educational vein it started with---divulging the innner workings of our 79/99** printers and sharing some helpful maintenance/repair tips along the way.  I wish Dorothy could just *click* her red heels together and those that seem so entrenched in being litigious or some sort of Epson conspiracy start their own thread or go elsewhere.  Again, I'm not saying that out of warranty Epson printer issues are without merit.   I'm outta here.

Eric, if you could drop me a note when something substantive comes up.  It's become too time consuming trying to wean through the thread separating the wheat from the chaff...

ken