Making a case for a $1000usd powercord

[32BT]

Considering this is the coffee-corner…

I don't actually use a $1000usd power cable, but still, I am going to make a case for it.

In order to get the best audiophile performance, most of the equipment in the audiochain will be over-dimensioned. Over-dimension ensures effortless performance within the actual relevant dimensions.

You want your speakers to handle frequencies upto 40kHz. Not because you claim that you can actually hear those frequencies, but because it ensures that frequencies around 20kHz pose little to no problem. Additionally, if you can hear tones in this frequency range, you will likely be able to hear the different timbres between a pure sine wave and a triangle wave, which implies that frequencies above normal hearing range are apparently relevant to the perception of tones within hearing range.

Suppose you have a 250watt speaker, then you likely want a poweramplifier which is capable of 1000 ~ 1250watts so that it can effortlessly drive those 250watts with hyper-class A precision. The problem of course with monoblock end-stage poweramplifiers is that they are either on or off. Volume control is handled by pre-amplifiers, so the d*mn thing is constantly amplifying EVERYTHING.

And this then is the pivotal point in the argument as well as in the audio chain, because every minute freakishly small bit of crap that goes into the amp, is literally amplified to possibly very audible levels. That includes the actual changes in current drawn from a power cord. Any minute changes and differences therein, may produce destabilizations in the amp, which are subsequently amplified to such extent to result in audible changes. Either in the playing signal, or directly in the base silence.

So, therefor it may very well help to add a $1000usd dynamic filtering powercable to your system. More can be found here: lessloss

Well, having made my point I would immediately like to add that it obviously makes little to no sense to build a system like this, because most selfproclaimed audiophiles are simply too lazy to switch off their WiFi router and mobile phone to name just some culprits of EMC disturbances, which would completely nullify any such system. (Any form of electric engine, like in your fridge, would be another).

But I should still get a 7 out of 10 for at least making a case, no?

[Rob C]

Why? You've just made me unhappy with the old stuff I have been so happy with lo these many moons!

If I switch anything off, I might never know how to get it back on again without calling out a tecnico who'd also charge me a coming-out fee for his pains, apart from the minimum hourly rate!

Well, just about to close for the night and watch a drama/melodrama about Bailey and Shrimpton on BBC4. That's be sure to piss me off!

Rob C

[Sheldon N]

It makes sense until you open up the drywall and look what is on the other side of the outlet that you just plugged your $1000 power cable into. Plain old 14 or 12 gauge NM-B copper wire... costs about $.50 a foot.

[BernardLanguillier]

It makes sense until you open up the drywall and look what is on the other side of the outlet that you just plugged your $1000 power cable into. Plain old 14 or 12 gauge NM-B copper wire... costs about $.50 a foot.

I know... the engineer in me just cannot explain why... but I swear that the various high end power cables I have been using actually did make a difference. The system has now reached a level of sound quality that can only be described as out of this world.

Or at least am I convinced that it did, which is all that really matters.

Cheers,
Bernard

[32BT]

It makes sense until you open up the drywall and look what is on the other side of the outlet that you just plugged your $1000 power cable into. Plain old 14 or 12 gauge NM-B copper wire... costs about $.50 a foot.

well, the powercord is meant to be a passive filter for the crap that comes out of the socket. Doesn't really matter what happens in the few meters or several thousands of miles prior to the cable. Obviously, the cleaner your socket output, the less need of filtering and there is only so much you can passively filter. Plus of course the power demands…

But hey, if we got money to burn, why not purchase a Tesla Roadster and use its vast array of lithium cells as a hyperclean decoupled powersource...

[dmerger]

the crap that comes out of the socket.

Can you explain what this "crap" is?

Plus of course the power demands…

I don't understand this comment, either.  If the powers demands are too much for a normal power cord, wouldn't it also be too much for the normal wiring and circuit breakers in the home?  Can you explain? 

well, the powercord is meant to be a passive filter

What are you filtering and how do you determine what length of power cord is needed for effective filtering? 

But hey, if we got money to burn, why not purchase a Tesla Roadster and use its vast array of lithium cells as a hyperclean decoupled powersource...

I don't understand this comment, either. What do you mean by "clean" and why would electrical current from lithium cells be any "cleaner" than ordinary home electrical current?

[hjulenissen]

Assuming that you are searching for _audible_ improvements (there are many other valid improvements to strive for - good looks and impressing your friends for instance). It makes a lot of sense that going from 2/10 to 6/10 (one some subjective quality scale) will be inexpensive, while going from 8/10 to 9/10 will be a lot more expensive and 9/10 to 10/10 may be impossible at any cost. Just like going from an iPhone camera to a cheap DSLR will be a significant improvement at a few hundred dollars, while the difference between a $50000 MFDB and a $100000 one is relatively small (both can probably make images that can hang on any gallery wall).

If you (like most of us) have a finite budget, you probably want to spend that budget in whatever fashion gets you up to 7/10 (or even 10/10). It makes little sense to blow half your budget on some component that brings you from 5/10 to 5/10. Agree?

For some components in the audio playback chain, audible differences (and preferences) are evident, scientifically proven, and physically easily explained. Some are even free (like moving your speakers by an inch). For others, audible differences have never been proven and remains a controversy. Where would you spend your budget?



-h

[BernardLanguillier]

For some components in the audio playback chain, audible differences (and preferences) are evident, scientifically proven, and physically easily explained. Some are even free (like moving your speakers by an inch). For others, audible differences have never been proven and remains a controversy. Where would you spend your budget?

Am I the only one to find this way too reasonnable?

The only thing that high end audio produces is the satisfaction of the owner. So that is the variable that needs to be optimized. A power cable can be effective according to that metric! Please believe me.

Cheers,
Bernard

[degrub]

If you put a high frequency oscilloscope on the power feed you will see a lot of high frequency noise overlayed onto the 60/50 hz power feed. It is even worse on power supplies that synthesize a 60/50 hz wave form with discretely - most device power supplies, UPS, etc. Most equipment using that power is designed to tolerate the noise so it can function. It is possible for that noise to influence the output of a power amp if not filtered out since the small area under the noise wave form is an amount of energy that will change the output response of the amp. We used to use transformer based output circuits to feed our data acquisition computer power supplies until we realized that the individual power supply for the computer was generating a far worse wave form and the system was producing the correct results anyway ! 
It is an open question to many if that imposed energy is significant for audio listening. By definition, a speaker is another type of filter as it transforms an electric waveform to a air pressure wave form.  It is not a perfect transformer. For many/most of us we would never notice the difference, particularly if heard in a stand alone environment. Where the human brain excels is in detecting differences in two sounds when heard in close time or spatial proximity. It is a learned ability subject to one's hearing capabilities. Being a westerner, i had a hard time "hearing" the tone changes in Mandarin. But after several weeks of being immersed, i could reliably detect the differences. It is somewhat similar for audiophile applications i think, in that the brain can be trained to recognize a difference.

Of course part of the requirement is that the "clean" power be maintained throughout the electronic signal path. Otherwise, the difference may be destroyed.

Frank

[NikoJorj]

It is possible for that noise to influence the output of a power amp if not filtered out since the small area under the noise wave form is an amount of energy that will change the output response of the amp.

Then, the 1000$ question : why not have a proper power supply that filters the noise, instead of transferring that burden to the cable?

[degrub]

Certainly. It can be done at each of the stages in the path to the speaker, probably has to be done at each stage to address any noise pickup and component noise.
Frank

[allenmacaulay]

Then, the 1000$ question : why not have a proper power supply that filters the noise, instead of transferring that burden to the cable?

1) It's not nearly as easy to do as it seems
2) There's no money in it compared to hawking power cords & signal cables

It's a lot easier & more profitable to sell pieces of wire than it is to design, test, and manufacture circuits & components which eliminate & prevent noise from getting into the signal path.  To properly design & test the circuits requires lots of stupidly expensive equipment, lots of time, and skilled knowledgeable people, there are frankly very few companies in audio which have all the above.  Most of those skilled experts went into more lucrative fields, audio is quite trendy so it's hard to get products out in time, and good luck booking time in an RFI test chamber unless you have an inside line to the NRC or some other research facility, or you're an international conglomerate with a ton of money.

So audio tends to bumble along for the most part, and in some cases it's actually regressed.

[hjulenissen]

Am I the only one to find this way too reasonnable?

The only thing that high end audio produces is the satisfaction of the owner. So that is the variable that needs to be optimized. A power cable can be effective according to that metric! Please believe me.

Cheers,
Bernard

I do believe that good audible behaviour is important to many listeners. Identifying what matters is not all that different from the various "MF vs 35mm" or "Leica vs Canon" debates that one can see on this site. This requires a deep understanding of the physics and perception involved, or some time-consuming and tedious blind-tests. For glossy magazines, it is a lot cheaper to generate long articles of artsy-touchy-feely words and little information-bearing content. Note that though I despise touchy-feely-poorly founded explanations for "how many megapixels do you need", I have a deep respect for the intellect and craft needed in taking a great photography or composing a great piece of music. Natural science does not offer the answer as to how to be an artist, in my view.

People (especially men) tend to put a lot of effort into choice of tools.

Happiness is something that most of us strive for, and shiny new cables certainly make some people more happy. I am not a psychologist and I tend to be more interested in perceptable differences in sound/image.

-h

[hjulenissen]

It is an open question to many if that imposed energy is significant for audio listening. ...Being a westerner, i had a hard time "hearing" the tone changes in Mandarin. But after several weeks of being immersed, i could reliably detect the differences.

Training is needed in preceptual tests, yes.

One would think that given the number of people claiming to hear enormous differences between signal cables, loudspeaker cables, power cables, magic stones, green felt-tip applied to CD, etc that at least one was greedy enough to take the $1mill offer from James Randi. None so far...

One would think that given that audiophile cable companies are generally laughed at by most electronics engineers working in relevant fields, they would seize the chance to clear themselves of ridicule by taking the $1mill offer from James Randi. None so far...

-h

[sandymc]

1) It's not nearly as easy to do as it seems
2) There's no money in it compared to hawking power cords & signal cables

It's a lot easier & more profitable to sell pieces of wire than it is to design, test, and manufacture circuits & components which eliminate & prevent noise from getting into the signal path.  To properly design & test the circuits requires lots of stupidly expensive equipment, lots of time, and skilled knowledgeable people, there are frankly very few companies in audio which have all the above.  Most of those skilled experts went into more lucrative fields, audio is quite trendy so it's hard to get products out in time, and good luck booking time in an RFI test chamber unless you have an inside line to the NRC or some other research facility, or you're an international conglomerate with a ton of money.

So audio tends to bumble along for the most part, and in some cases it's actually regressed.

Yes. The problem is, people keep on buying hugely expensive, badly designed junk. I too have heard a difference when different (usually shielded/filtered) power cables are used with some high end audio equipment. But what that really tells you is not the the power cord is great, it tell you that either there's a problem with the way you wired the system, or that the hugely expensive monoblock tube amp the cable's connected to is actually trash.

There is great audio equipment out there, and some of it justifiably costs a ton of money. But anything whose sound changes based on the power cable is just plain badly engineered.

Sandy

[Kerry L]

The real issue is that a $1000 power cord really doesn't cost that much more to manufacture than a standard cord. The inflated cost is justifiable only in the minds of those who want the ultimate.

I remember working a car race and photographing the action in the pits. One driver was using a small tool to alter the tread of his tires. I asked if it really made such a difference on the track. He tapped the side of his head and said "up here it will!"

[Chairman Bill]

I remember a mate of mine taking umbrage at some woo-filled, pseudoscientific nonsense in a hi-fi magazine, and deciding to experiment. One such suggestion was to have a strip of paper in each book on a bookshelf, with about an inch of the strip sticking proud of the cover, and this would improve the sound. Checking it wasn't an April edition, we proceded to add strips of paper to each of his books. Then, sitting back, we listened. And listened. Then started gigling at the sight of little bits of paper sticking out the tops of his books. Decided it was nonsense, but he left the strips in, to check whether his wife would notice them. Then we moved onto the real test.

He'd read so much about fancy speaker cables. I had NAIM cable (which I still use), he had bought some rather exotic stuff, but was having his doubts. So we ran a comparison with simple bell-wire. In a blind test, I thought I could hear a difference, slightly preferring the expensive stuff, & he preferred the bell-wire. He sold the expensive stuff & used the money to upgrade his tone-arm.

When I changed amplifiers recently, I switched from a NAIM to an Audio Analogue Puccini. Not really high-end stuff, but all quite decent enough. I think I preferred the sound of my Linn LP12 through the NAIM, but the Musical Fidelity CD player through the Audio Analogue. The Audio Analogue was certainly better overall, with a wider soundstage, better seperation and so on. But the NAIM was just so sweet-sounding & just plain damned musical. When I upgraded my tone-arm to an Origin Live model, the difference was considerable. Upgrading from Linn Index Plus to Castle Severn II speakers made a significant postive difference too.

The point is, I can hear differences with equipment changes, but the wire was minimal given the cost, and the test inconclusive in so much as we disagreed. Other people have commented on my upgrades & the better sound that's resulted. I could probably switch the wire & no one would notice. As subjective as music appreciation is, we could probably objectify many of the sonic differences, but expensive wires & bell-wire, bog-standard power cables & highly exotic versions, probably remain in the realms of esoterica, with little if any objective data to show improvements. And then there's always that law of diminishing returns, as I had to admit when auditioning a very nice Michell turntable & Krell pre/power amp combo. If money was no object ...

[Rocco Penny]

I have listened to 100+ "high end" audio systems.
I had time to evaluate several based on common principles ie "how's that sound?"
My friend has a very expensive spectrum analyzer and a PhD in acoustics.
He helped me set up several configs of various components and speakers.
D/A conversion etc
electronic crossover or passive depending on the driver.
Lots of different speaker sets.
I mostly listen to my big box store 29.99 portable am/fm cd player now
Seriously,
power conditioning is old tech
power supplies have always used some type,
these cables and conditioners that advertise less skin effect and cleaner base metal conduction are hocus pocus.
Perfect termination and high quality electronics are the keys.
Not mumbo jumbo promises of higher dynamic range.
And until you really do buy 8000 dollar speakers you ain't gonna hear those nuances anyway,
so 1000 dollar cable would be about right if you're a studio running the interconnects for recording through a wall and the runs are a room long
That cable would be 6-10 channels all individually jacketed and terminated in very expensive plugs
a grand for a pair of speaker wires or a conditioner is silly
A new service and rewire to the source would be cheaper if you do some of the work yourself
what interference are you getting?
And quantifying these things is possible.
EVERY SINGLE gearhead would want one and they would be common and popular.
They're not...

[Graeme Nattress]

If a power cord is making the world of difference to a high end piece of hifi gear, chances are it's a poorly engineered piece of gear. There's so much hifi that is "designed" rather than "engineered", that it's not surprising that some gear benefits from extra power-line filtering. Of course, if you really want to filter the power, filter the power rather than tackle it with an expensive cord.

The current bs in hifi is that bit-perfect (as in every bit identical to the source) rips from cd done with different software, or even different power supplies driving the cd drive can sound different. Of course, those that are suggesting this won't submit their ears to blind testing...

[hjulenissen]

The current bs in hifi is that bit-perfect (as in every bit identical to the source) rips from cd done with different software, or even different power supplies driving the cd drive can sound different. Of course, those that are suggesting this won't submit their ears to blind testing...

I have seen claims that it is impossible to read an entire audio-CD without massive bit-error that would have to be concealed.

I did my own test and concluded that my player was able to at least play 73 minutes worth of audio with sample-for-sample correct output over spdif.

-h