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Author Topic: Scarlet  (Read 77550 times)

bcooter

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #80 on: November 25, 2011, 02:54:47 pm »

I shot my latest feature with the RedMX camera.  We recorded the video output live, just for playback.  It was in no way suitable for final mastering. 

Is the point of this photo to show that they have some on-board recorder for the video output?

I guess I'm missing your point.

Why would you try to master from the hdmi output on the RED.   The reason for RED is raw in either editing/grading in Avid, or just grading and output in any format you wish?

Anyway, don't get me wrong, if it turns out the c300 is a better camera than what I own or what I intend to buy, I'll buy it in a blink of an eye, because even at 20k that just the entry level for good lenses.

It doesn't change the fact I think Canon missed the mark on this, but as I say it's just my opinion and my workflow, vs a lot of others that work differently and It matters nothing to me what cameras anyone uses.

I do know that we've had great results with the RED and only one issue where the footage didn't grade well and that was a quick street shot in Paris under practicals without fill and graded to blue.  That broke it up, but it also broke up the 5d2 and the Sony footage, but I should have expected that given that the scene was natively bright orange.

Other than that no issues for us.

IMO

BC
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smthopr

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #81 on: November 25, 2011, 03:07:42 pm »

I think we should break this mystic about Raw being difficult to deal with and requires the pentagon power to be manageable. That's not truth.

It's simple, in Avid, the RED raw workflow through AMA is faster than AVCHD native editing ! Try it by yourself if you don't beleive me.

In Edius, it's faster to work from Red files than with this popular consumer AVCHD. And I'm talking about 4k editing, not 2k.
I've actually discovered that using HQX codec (converting the R3D) in 4K editing it's possible to maintain the quality while editing way faster. Impossible to notice visually a difference.

Avid grades directly the Raw datas in the timeline (with a raw pop-up windows that looks like ACR) without problem on a 4 years old workstation (fair to say that some renders are required from time to time).

No fear of Raw. It works very well.
 

I'm not editing my own photography, and the professional editors I've worked with don't edit using the R3d files.  We conform and grade the RAW files at the end of post production.

The biggest challenge that I have for color grading is dealing with shots that have been re-framed and speed altered.  It ends up that there will be many shots that have been rendered to 2k that need to be matched with clips graded directly from the RAW files.  It can be very time consuming to sort this out.  Same goes for clips with visual effects sometimes.  If the editing had been done with original s-log video files, this task would be much faster and easier.

And lastly, from my experience, color grading the R3d files, the basic de-bayer from the RED software looks rather odd.  Not at all like a Canon still camera RAW conversion, which usually looks quite good right off the bat.  The RED RAW files need quite a bit of work to look cinematic and natural.  In my opinion, much more than they should.  Color grading s-log footage from a Sony F35 is a breeze in comparison.  And in the end, the projects are rendered to 2k or 1080p HD anyway.  This is more than enough resolution for cinema delivery today.

The main point of my post was that many who read this forum will assume that cinema camera RAW shooting is just like still camera RAW shooting.  And that cinema camera non-RAW shooting is just like shooting JPEG in camera. But it's not really comparable unless one is shooting for direct broadcast or delivery of in-camera video.  High quality / high dynamic range imaging is possible using either RAW recording or log video recording.  If one needs a low cost camera for moderately budgeted productions, RAW recording might not be the best choice. And many high end movies have been shot digitally without RAW recording as well.
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smthopr

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #82 on: November 25, 2011, 03:23:38 pm »

I guess I'm missing your point.

Why would you try to master from the hdmi output on the RED.   The reason for RED is raw in either editing/grading in Avid, or just grading and output in any format you wish?

IMO

BC


I agree completely.  An earlier post seemed to be considering recording the RED video output for HD delivery. I just wanted to point out that it's not the same quality as SDI out of many non-RAW cameras.
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Bruce Alan Greene
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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #83 on: November 25, 2011, 04:49:31 pm »

...  We conform and grade the RAW files at the end of post production.
So do I...normaly.

But the word I don't like is the last one, "normaly".

Conforming, reconforming, ok, but there are different possible solutions as you know well. Like in any other medium let's be frank, there is also orthodoxy.

In Avid I use AMA and it doesn't slow-down significantly. Avid only motion adapt the R3D to the HD standard, and even when using the DNxHD codec to edit, the conforming task is dead easy with the bins capabilities.

There is a significant advantage. When you have for ex 3 types of cameras on the same timeline, let's say a Red, a Sony F3, and a 5D2. If, the red files have been graded in RCX or even by the camera opeator on set, and there is a color issue within the timeline with the other footage, you can, while editing and viewing the footage in 2k, call the raw datas and alter them in real time without having to do anything but keeping editing. That means that it's only interesting when you decide to by-pass the conforming stage otherwise it makes no sense because you'd loose those settings. (to date that I know, maybe they solved that with Red engineers)

Now, cutting in 4K is another path that not all the NLE are able to acheive. If that can be done without experiencing a significant lost in performances, why not using it? This is another way, not saying the best, but in some cases it really is a great option. It means that what you ingest in the editor will not be conformed-reconformed.
Working in full screen with 4k while editing is an interesting experience.
I can tell you this: without any Da-Vinci, you'd be able to stay in Edius 6 until the finishing, but it means serious habilities in the grading knowledge while there is no dedicated color correct soft involved, it's more tedius. Where does it shines? Documentary shooted with Red for ex.

The biggest challenge that I have for color grading is dealing with shots that have been re-framed and speed altered.  It ends up that there will be many shots that have been rendered to 2k that need to be matched with clips graded directly from the RAW files.  It can be very time consuming to sort this out.  Same goes for clips with visual effects sometimes.  If the editing had been done with original s-log video files, this task would be much faster and easier.
This is very truth.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 06:29:00 pm by fredjeang »
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #84 on: November 25, 2011, 04:55:57 pm »

Lets try and clarify what I was trying to say. Maybe use some photo language.

Tonight I have done a stills job - it is 2200 hours here in the UK and my deadline is 0830 - I intend to get some sleep

What I have done is shoot Raw and Jpeg on my Nikon D3, I am confident the jpgs are good enough for the client

I will download the card and work up the jpgs a little and send, done.

Should I have got my colour or exposrue way off I would go into the raws and do some recovery.

Really I only shot the Raws as a little insurance for myself.

Spool forward a year  and Im asked to do a 2 min video of the same event next year with the same deadline

I want to come home and get editing right now

Users of sony XDcam, or a pro res shooting camera can do that - drop onto the timleline, edit , export , deliver

I dont see that as being possible with native scarlet files - its clumsy enough for me just with the FS100

Is it possible with the C300 - Im not sure?

It it possible with native Scarlet - I dont think so

So I was putting forward the concept of using the camera in different modes appropriate to different situations

Using native file recording for more serious projects and recording straight to pro res for lower budget projects or those with hard deadlines

Some projects would require shooting 'Raw and JPG' for instant deliver and integration into a more serious project in the fulness of time

Match that with a potential ability for the Scarlet to record a crop of the sensor (in this mode) making a lens like a 16-35 into something like a 16-70 that could be great too

On that basis if the output is a half decent quality of 1080 pro res the camera to me becomes far more versatile than the Canon

Shoot..
4K
5K stills
.. all the other raw options
Plus
1080 444 pro res full frame
1080 crop mode at up to 60fps
maybe 1080 super crop mode at up to 120fps

Is a lot more functional than..
30p 1080 or 60p 720 offereed by the canon

Of course I know what the pix can record, but have no idea what comes out of the Scarlet SDI

Clear as mud no doubt

S








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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #85 on: November 25, 2011, 05:18:26 pm »

Oh yeah! Super clear

...as the Amazon river water...

(I'm teasing, I'm teasing)
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #86 on: November 25, 2011, 05:24:18 pm »

How about this

Could I shoot RAw on big important projects and 1080pro res on simpler projects that are on a hard deadline

or both on some other projects

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #87 on: November 25, 2011, 05:34:02 pm »

How about this

Could I shoot RAw on big important projects and 1080pro res on simpler projects that are on a hard deadline

or both on some other projects

S

But this where I don't get you.

You have your raw file. Once it is ingested into the NLE (let's asume that you do not work with FCP), it can be whatever you like it to be. 2k, 4-5, 50000K, 5 billion Ks and you can choose the appropriate codec.

But again, it's asuming that you work in a NLE like Avid or Premiere. (Edius is another path).

So you only need one file that potentialy "contains" the options you want.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 05:41:02 pm by fredjeang »
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #88 on: November 25, 2011, 05:42:55 pm »

There are variousappeals to shooting direct  to 1080 (on the right projects)

-Mass of data and moving it around - even 'downloading the cards' takes time?

Is this right? http://www.theblackandblue.com/2011/08/04/epic-cost/

-The speed of editiing

-amount and cost of media

Remember this is a Twitter Facebook age, things seem old by yesterday

For example the launches on Nov 3rd - really you wanted to have a launch report online within an hour or two of the event, not the next day

Id like to do that with the same camera that could also do serious projects

My nikon D3 can shoot Small, Med Large and Raw too or not

In my business each file is appropriate on occasion

S





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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #89 on: November 25, 2011, 06:06:13 pm »

Now I'm finally following you.

Yes, interesting thoughts.

I agree with most of your points.
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Robert Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #90 on: November 25, 2011, 06:45:15 pm »

Match that with a potential ability for the Scarlet to record a crop of the sensor (in this mode) making a lens like a 16-35 into something like a 16-70 that could be great too

On that basis if the output is a half decent quality of 1080 pro res the camera to me becomes far more versatile than the Canon

Shoot..
4K
5K stills
.. all the other raw options
Plus
1080 444 pro res full frame
1080 crop mode at up to 60fps
maybe 1080 super crop mode at up to 120fps

Is a lot more functional than..
30p 1080 or 60p 720 offereed by the canon

Of course I know what the pix can record, but have no idea what comes out of the Scarlet SDI

Clear as mud no doubt

S


Sam,

Why bother...other than time and you can sleep while CS 5.5 PP does the work.

I have shot 4K Red One files...import to PP output to Cineform 442 ( save space ) at 1920x1080 after editing in real time on the
timeline....then later color correct in First Light and output to MOV files.

Most of this I do while I am off reading...sleeping...living my life. Red Cine Pro X allows a very quick workflow for the same.
With a RED Rocket all of this would be in real time. As I do this for myself I do not see the need to run at the highest level
of output...but it is nice to know that the option exists.

Bottom line is there exists a 4K Master file that is scalable...this is R1. Epic and Scarlet allow 5K same workflow.

My EX1R had wonderful color and terrible aliasing...sharp with artifacts....not what I saw as a viable form. This was
with a Nano Flash at 100MBPS....

Color is correctable and the RED files look more analog ... like a M8(.2) to me. I cannot add resolution after the fact.
With RED I have it to begin with...

In the setup you can select 2 to 5K ... your choice : unavailable with Canon or Sony at this price point.

Looking at your web site your output with the Canon 5DII is wonderful...I imagine with a C300 or a Scarlet
it would be incrementally better...you have the process down. I do not think that either would overwhelm your
free time if staged correctly.

Bob





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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2011, 07:00:33 pm »

Maybe why bother - maybe the workflow is not that slow

I will say it again ..

Speed - int the internet age some projects need delivering very quickly - either same day or ready for the next morning

Space - lets say filming some boring corporate speech - could be 4 hours maybe more, maybe many camera

128GB = 90 mins at highest compression, 12 hours of footage, 1000GB of raw footage before any proxies or orther formats

is this a problem  - I dont know - it would be on my current computer Im sure

1TB lasts me a couple of months at the moment!

Back up ? Copy time to backup, editable drives - cost of of on location media or a DIT running bla bla

The wrong camera - maybe - but it would be my camera

And just cos its a conferernce it doesnt need to be 1/3 hell

Bascially a Raw only Scarlet is a non starter for me (being realistic)

Then ther is the 'punch in' factor - if you are recording at 1080 you could get a small portion of the frame

Saving lens changes while shooting

Im not saying it would work - I am enquiring (where is Gnatress) if it is a viable solution

And at the weekend or with my best clients shoot wonderful 4k

S



« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 07:06:51 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

smthopr

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2011, 09:40:49 pm »

Maybe why bother - maybe the workflow is not that slow

I will say it again ..

Speed - int the internet age some projects need delivering very quickly - either same day or ready for the next morning

Space - lets say filming some boring corporate speech - could be 4 hours maybe more, maybe many camera

128GB = 90 mins at highest compression, 12 hours of footage, 1000GB of raw footage before any proxies or orther formats

is this a problem  - I dont know - it would be on my current computer Im sure

1TB lasts me a couple of months at the moment!

Back up ? Copy time to backup, editable drives - cost of of on location media or a DIT running bla bla

The wrong camera - maybe - but it would be my camera

And just cos its a conferernce it doesnt need to be 1/3 hell

Bascially a Raw only Scarlet is a non starter for me (being realistic)

Then ther is the 'punch in' factor - if you are recording at 1080 you could get a small portion of the frame

Saving lens changes while shooting

Im not saying it would work - I am enquiring (where is Gnatress) if it is a viable solution

And at the weekend or with my best clients shoot wonderful 4k

S





I seem to remember a proposed prores recorder from RED that could be added to the Epic/Scarlet body.  I don't think it's been released yet, but the idea would have been to do what you propose.  At present, the video out via HDSDI from the RED cameras looks just a little bit better than standard def video, and "jaggie" artifacts are common, even though it comes out as HD video, it's not really HD quality.  HD video from a Panasonic HDX 170 looks better...

Also, the black level from the RED oneMX video out isn't really "0" black and will need to be corrected in post.  Ironically, the color debayer through the video out looks a little bit better to me than the debayer through the Red software modules.  I have no idea why this is.

Maybe a camera like the new Canon or Sony F3 might be just the right product for your style of production?  I think both are quite capable of shooting a "hollywood" feature that would be viable for distribution provided the project could attract $14 per ticket :)

If you can deal with rendering from RAW images, you might like a RED camera more, Mr. Moore...
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #93 on: November 26, 2011, 01:34:05 am »

Earlier I linked to a recorder the Sound Devices PIX240

Sound Devices is a company whos stuff tends to do what is supposed to do (unlike some of the other more indy style recorders at lower price points)

Maybe the output from Scarlet is like you describe on the Red only useable as a preview

Maybe not.. that is my question

F3, C300, is absolutely possible, but if the  SDi out on Scarlet gives similar quality to recording on cards on one of those cameras the Scarlet would go straight to the top of my list !





« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 03:03:55 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #94 on: November 26, 2011, 03:49:48 am »

The more this thread keeps going, the less I follow you guys on those points.

Basically, what Morgan is asking is a proper HD output option within the Red camera and the possibility to choose between raw - Prores QT.
Perfectly fine and usefull desire.
It's true that the RED proxies generated suck and can't be an option.

But then, wich Prores? the 4.2.2 ? I don't see it.

The Alexa does that. Arriraw or Prores 444.

I don't get the cost of space, if the cost of space has never been so low and will keep going to decrease. Computer performances are growing while costs are getting lower. What can be costly today will be the norm tomorrow. Computer engineering goes faster than gear. So 4-5 or more ks won't be any issue tomorrow at each time lower costs.

If a camera is able to shoot a Raw master, then whatever your output might be, it gives you flexibility as in the end one file is needed for any output.

You seem to think like you'd had to deliver only one format and that's it, format that would have been defined before the shooting  :o but I've never received such a sheet because
what I always got is at least 5 different outputs required for the same project, and those are generally starting from the maximum possible size to mobile phones outputs.

Then, let's say the Red features 2k HD prores option, you have choosen this setting, then the clients asks for stills later...you're in deep trouble: "why the hell haven't I choose the Raw...." will resonate in your head...

Let's be serious for awhile. I've never ever seen once a client that asks for just one output.

You do a master at the max possible quality and then dispatch. Why complicating? You'd have this option in camera that it will be in fact a dilema more than a solution.

If you decide to shoot HD "only" with a camera that features 4-5K reso, it's the open door to future problems.
To solve one, you'd put yourself potentially in others later.

I think that the master should be the maximum reso available. If it's 2K Alexa it will be 2K, if it's 4-5K Red it will be 4-5 K.

If it's possible (and it will be more and more possible) to edit with resolution independance, then this is the path IMO.

And another observation. Reading some post between lines (I might be wrong so correct me if it's the case), it seems that many are FCP users right?
I won't comment on that any further, but you know that there are options...


« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:05:34 am by fredjeang »
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #95 on: November 26, 2011, 04:01:49 am »

Remember the 'low quality' output I would be after would match the output of a SonyF3 (shooting to card) or Canon C300 at all

I guess using those cameras is not a recipe for 'deep trouble'

Judging this , reduser,  thread some seem to ask for instant proxies, other for a cheap deliverable, which is available is not clear to me.. or I think to anyone until they get the camera in the hand
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?64848-Sound-Devices-PIX-240-ProRes-DNxHD-Video-Recorder-with-EPIC

of course the cost of memory is coming down but at this point I do not think is is negligable once again, opion is split (comments)..
http://www.theblackandblue.com/2011/08/04/epic-cost/

My conclusion .. output quality is as yet unknown, cost, in both money and time, of memory when shooting raw impacts on some projects not others depending on budget and deadline

is that a reasonable conclusion to this aspect of the camera?

S



« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:10:12 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #96 on: November 26, 2011, 04:14:54 am »

Aaaahhhh...here we go...

Keep in mind (I could verify it) that many many of the Redusers in the US are using FCP.

Therefore their claims are justified.

Now, this is a totaly different story with Avid or Premiere.

The cheap straighforward solution within the Red camera is already a reality with a more powerfull editor.

We rarely talk about that but the problem is also that in the US (I insist), FCP has become the norm for many.
If there were good reason in the past for it, there are now bad reasons in the present time.

Another title could be : the hidden cost of FCP7. But nobody is willing to admit it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:24:42 am by fredjeang »
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #97 on: November 26, 2011, 04:26:26 am »

Interesting point :)
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Hywel

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #98 on: November 26, 2011, 07:09:11 am »

Very interesting thread guys, thank you!

I'm hiring a RED One this week to do a test shoot* and see how it is to actually deal with. I'm thinking of either a second-hand RED One or a Scarlet for next year, and this should give me enough of an idea of how the while chain handles to let me know if I am crazy or not.

(* test shoot = shooting my normal sort of thing with my in-house model and using both current camera and RED for a direct comparison of workflow in my actual shooting style).

For now, since my deliverable is direct sales to end consumers via the web, my final output is only 3kbps 720p MP4. I'm currently mastering in 1080p Prores 422, for a bit of future proofing, and currently 95% of my footage is shot on my Panasonic AF100 with on-board codec. I can't say I'm satisfied with the current camera's output. It is a step up from the dSLRs (in quality, robustness, useability, moire, rolling shutter and most important of all ergonomics and reliability of the cameras on set) but I'm comparing with stills taken on the same day in the same location with the same model on a Hasselblad H3Dii-31 and all I can really see is how sludgy and sucky the video is.

Fortunately, unlike Sam, I never have the imminent deadlines to deliver to customers by next week. I have to deliver at a steady rate of one short per week, but today's shoot can cheerfully go up in six months' time and none of my customers will be any the wiser. So I'm thinking that a tea-based workflow grading the footage in RED CINE and exporting to ProRes at leisure when the Mac is relatively idle might be OK for me. As long as the conversion can be done in batch overnight once I've chosen the look, I'll be OK.

To start with I'll edit the footage in FCP X via exported ProRes and just see how it compares. I could edit native in Premiere but I prefer FCP X so I'll try that workflow first. I'll be very interested to see how "stepping down" from 4K RED RAW to ProRes for the edit compares with "stepping up" from AVCHD to ProRes from the AF100- in terms of quality gain bang for the buck, and in time required to get there.

I'll let you know how I get on...!

  Cheers, Hywel.


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fredjeang

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Re: Scarlet
« Reply #99 on: November 26, 2011, 12:24:28 pm »

To start with I'll edit the footage in FCP X via exported ProRes...

Ouch...

(for the X)

I could edit native in Premiere but I prefer FCP X so I'll try that workflow first.

Ouch ouch...

... "stepping up" from AVCHD to ProRes from the AF100- in terms of quality gain bang for the buck, and in time required to get there.

Ouch ouch ouch...

(no quality gain, just not more degradation)

I'll let you know how I get on...!

If you have survived the process.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 12:31:50 pm by fredjeang »
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