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Author Topic: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability  (Read 105142 times)

BJL

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #220 on: October 25, 2011, 09:13:32 pm »

Yes it sure is…

Canon showed the new X against the old road maps of D and Ds on its own plot halfway between the two. So it seems they are not intending to do an Xs.
Yes, if one reads what Canon actually says and trusts them not to be outright lying, this is clearly the case. And if you think that Canon knows its business far better than us forum pundits, this suggests that Canon has judged that there is no longer a sufficient market for the combination of a higher resolution, medium format challenging "tripod camera" with the EOS-1 class body, with the bulk and cost of its extremely rugged body, integrated vertical grip, very high frame rate etc.: the 5D, other less expensive 35mm format DSLRs and more affordable MF options have shrunk that market considerably. Instead, I would infer from Canon's actions that the EOS-1 class body sells primarily for PJ, sports and such, as it was with film, and for that, the trade-offs between high frame rate and higher resolution caps out at 18MP, according to Canon and its current technological limits.

But this does not have to mean that there will be nothing better than the current 5D body for resolution beyond 18MP. Maybe the 5D line will move up in body specs, with a better VF for example, now that this would not eat into the 1Ds market, or maybe an additional intermediate grade of body wil be added, heir to the EOS-3 or F100 film cameras. Such a body could be priced at half as much as the 1Ds models were, so two of these instead of one 1Ds should cover most "field reliability" needs (and reduce lens swapping of course). But maybe Bernard can comment: he seems very experienced at doing high res. photography in rough conditions.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 09:15:13 pm by BJL »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #221 on: October 25, 2011, 09:42:02 pm »

Hi,

For me there is a nice spot in the Canon naming convention and it is '3D'.

Best regards
Erik


Yes, if one reads what Canon actually says and trusts them not to be outright lying, this is clearly the case. And if you think that Canon knows its business far better than us forum pundits, this suggests that Canon has judged that there is no longer a sufficient market for the combination of a higher resolution, medium format challenging "tripod camera" with the EOS-1 class body, with the bulk and cost of its extremely rugged body, integrated vertical grip, very high frame rate etc.: the 5D, other less expensive 35mm format DSLRs and more affordable MF options have shrunk that market considerably. Instead, I would infer from Canon's actions that the EOS-1 class body sells primarily for PJ, sports and such, as it was with film, and for that, the trade-offs between high frame rate and higher resolution caps out at 18MP, according to Canon and its current technological limits.

But this does not have to mean that there will be nothing better than the current 5D body for resolution beyond 18MP. Maybe the 5D line will move up in body specs, with a better VF for example, now that this would not eat into the 1Ds market, or maybe an additional intermediate grade of body wil be added, heir to the EOS-3 or F100 film cameras. Such a body could be priced at half as much as the 1Ds models were, so two of these instead of one 1Ds should cover most "field reliability" needs (and reduce lens swapping of course). But maybe Bernard can comment: he seems very experienced at doing high res. photography in rough conditions.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #222 on: October 25, 2011, 10:07:24 pm »

But this does not have to mean that there will be nothing better than the current 5D body for resolution beyond 18MP. Maybe the 5D line will move up in body specs, with a better VF for example, now that this would not eat into the 1Ds market, or maybe an additional intermediate grade of body wil be added, heir to the EOS-3 or F100 film cameras. Such a body could be priced at half as much as the 1Ds models were, so two of these instead of one 1Ds should cover most "field reliability" needs (and reduce lens swapping of course). But maybe Bernard can comment: he seems very experienced at doing high res. photography in rough conditions.

Hi BJL,

I don't know if I can be said to be very experienced, but I do have some experience indeed. What you want is a body you can totally forget about and treat just like another of your many pieces of equipment and trust it will work as expected even when being treated without any special care.

If I were Canon, I would indeed release a 36MP 3D high spec body with D700 like physical specs. It would need to have:
- 5D/D700 bulk,
- full splashproof and reasonnably shock proof,
- new longer last battery in compact form factor, or extension grip to enable re-use of 1dx batteries to ensure sufficient cold weather autonomy,
- a very robust mount to body connection to avoid it being bended out of alignement in packs,
- 100% viewfinder

Cheers,
Bernard

adam z

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #223 on: October 26, 2011, 07:06:04 am »

Hi BJL,

I don't know if I can be said to be very experienced, but I do have some experience indeed. What you want is a body you can totally forget about and treat just like another of your many pieces of equipment and trust it will work as expected even when being treated without any special care.

If I were Canon, I would indeed release a 36MP 3D high spec body with D700 like physical specs. It would need to have:
- 5D/D700 bulk,
- full splashproof and reasonnably shock proof,
- new longer last battery in compact form factor, or extension grip to enable re-use of 1dx batteries to ensure sufficient cold weather autonomy,
- a very robust mount to body connection to avoid it being bended out of alignement in packs,
- 100% viewfinder

Cheers,
Bernard


If that is what they end up doing, I will be pretty happy. I personally prefer the bulk of the 1D series bodies and would prefer not to need a seperate grip for my portrait shoots. That being said, as long as it is solidly built to suit shooting out in the elements, has plenty of resolution as well as reasonable DR, then it will be as close as anyone has ever got to my ideal camera.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #224 on: October 26, 2011, 01:03:50 pm »

Hi BJL,

I don't know if I can be said to be very experienced, but I do have some experience indeed. What you want is a body you can totally forget about and treat just like another of your many pieces of equipment and trust it will work as expected even when being treated without any special care.

If I were Canon, I would indeed release a 36MP 3D high spec body with D700 like physical specs. It would need to have:
- 5D/D700 bulk,
- full splashproof and reasonnably shock proof,
- new longer last battery in compact form factor, or extension grip to enable re-use of 1dx batteries to ensure sufficient cold weather autonomy,
- a very robust mount to body connection to avoid it being bended out of alignement in packs,
- 100% viewfinder

Cheers,
Bernard

Are you not more or less describing the 1Ds series that Canon supposedly did not make enough money off of, and that according to Canon was fused into this new 1Dx?

Unless something really exciting happens*), it seems to me that Canon will cater for the sports/news people with the 1Dx, the studio/landscape with the 5D(mk3), and sports/news people on a budget with the 7D(mk2).

*)The most exciting speculation I have seen so far was that Canon would make a mirror-less/live-view centric EOS for landscape/macro/slow work, perhaps (?) using a square sensor exploiting more of the image circle of EF lenses.

-h
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #225 on: October 26, 2011, 06:17:33 pm »

Are you not more or less describing the 1Ds series that Canon supposedly did not make enough money off of, and that according to Canon was fused into this new 1Dx?

no no no... look at Nikon, the D3x and D700 are very different cameras.

The rumored D800 would have D3x high end image quality in a D700 body which is more compact yet retains the high end build needed for some types of landscape work.

This is what I believe Canon should release as a 3D.

Cheers,
Bernard

bokehcambodia

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #226 on: October 27, 2011, 08:14:25 am »

Yes, if one reads what Canon actually says and trusts them not to be outright lying, this is clearly the case. And if you think that Canon knows its business far better than us forum pundits, this suggests that Canon has judged that there is no longer a sufficient market for the combination of a higher resolution, medium format challenging "tripod camera" with the EOS-1 class body, with the bulk and cost of its extremely rugged body, integrated vertical grip, very high frame rate etc.: the 5D, other less expensive 35mm format DSLRs and more affordable MF options have shrunk that market considerably. Instead, I would infer from Canon's actions that the EOS-1 class body sells primarily for PJ, sports and such, as it was with film, and for that, the trade-offs between high frame rate and higher resolution caps out at 18MP, according to Canon and its current technological limits.

But this does not have to mean that there will be nothing better than the current 5D body for resolution beyond 18MP. Maybe the 5D line will move up in body specs, with a better VF for example, now that this would not eat into the 1Ds market, or maybe an additional intermediate grade of body wil be added, heir to the EOS-3 or F100 film cameras. Such a body could be priced at half as much as the 1Ds models were, so two of these instead of one 1Ds should cover most "field reliability" needs (and reduce lens swapping of course). But maybe Bernard can comment: he seems very experienced at doing high res. photography in rough conditions.

Exactly what i was thinking, after cannibalizing its 1Ds [willingly], the roadmap might be a split-up of the 5DMKII line with a better body/AF/MP sensor for the 3D [mystical ?] and a 5DMKIII at its old price tag. This new camera [3D ?] could be sold for $1500 more than the 5DMKII currently.

bokehcambodia

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #227 on: October 27, 2011, 08:20:16 am »

no no no... look at Nikon, the D3x and D700 are very different cameras.

The rumored D800 would have D3x high end image quality in a D700 body which is more compact yet retains the high end build needed for some types of landscape work.

This is what I believe Canon should release as a 3D.

Cheers,
Bernard


That's what i hope will happen. The 5DMKII is a great camera, but not in conditions like extreme humidity or for field use you can trust on! The 5DMKII failed for me in this scenario without getting any drops of rain on the body, just extreme humidity knocked it our for 48hrs...
I hope for a 3D that is basically a 5DMKII on steroids, bigger sensor, better weatherproofed body, and a little better AF.
The 5DMKIII then can be the cinema DSLR everybody loves, and the 3D is the camera for serious high-res work... both markets served.

MoreOrLess

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #228 on: November 05, 2011, 07:17:58 am »

Are you not more or less describing the 1Ds series that Canon supposedly did not make enough money off of, and that according to Canon was fused into this new 1Dx?

The difference I see is that this camera wouldnt need the pro AF performance or 5 FPS since its not caterings to the sports/jurno/wildlife market who need high end image quality as much as the 1Ds line did now that the 1DX around offering FF and high FPS/ISO.

Quote
Unless something really exciting happens*), it seems to me that Canon will cater for the sports/news people with the 1Dx, the studio/landscape with the 5D(mk3), and sports/news people on a budget with the 7D(mk2).

The main unknown to me seems to be whether Canon will spilt the 5D line or not. With the 1Ds line ended and the market having been used to a relatively cheap 5D mk2 it seems like thats alot of ground for one model to cover. A high megapixel 5D sized body with 1D level build and a large 100% viewfinder is I'd guess unlikley to cost less than $3K so perhaps we'll also see a lower end body(current 5D build and OVF) with the 1DX sensor?

Quote
*)The most exciting speculation I have seen so far was that Canon would make a mirror-less/live-view centric EOS for landscape/macro/slow work, perhaps (?) using a square sensor exploiting more of the image circle of EF lenses.

-h

Was that me on DP review? ;)

If the 5D line does spilt I'd say that would make a square or a 5/4 sensor much easier to sell since your likely catering to an audience who want medium format but can't afford it or want to keep 35mm funcationality. So not only to you potentially gain an extra few percent in sensor size but you also offer a format that might actually be preffered.

I'm not sure I can see Canon going mirrorless with a body like that though, I can see many users preffering a 5D sized body but is one smaller than that going to balance lenses well? If Canon go mirrorless I suspect it will be to target a market that benefits more from it, say a rangefinder like body with some small custom primes or maybe even MF where the mirror takes up alot more space.


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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #229 on: November 05, 2011, 07:39:54 am »

If the 5D line does spilt I'd say that would make a square or a 5/4 sensor much easier to sell since your likely catering to an audience who want medium format but can't afford it or want to keep 35mm funcationality. So not only to you potentially gain an extra few percent in sensor size but you also offer a format that might actually be preffered.

I'm not sure I can see Canon going mirrorless with a body like that though, I can see many users preffering a 5D sized body but is one smaller than that going to balance lenses well? If Canon go mirrorless I suspect it will be to target a market that benefits more from it, say a rangefinder like body with some small custom primes or maybe even MF where the mirror takes up alot more space.
I suggested mirrorless as a means to:
1. Increase sensor size ("sort of MF but still using EF lenses")
2. Increase efforts/results in liveview/video modes without having to consider OVF or compete with the 1DX

Not as a means to decrease size or weight. I think that many 5Dmk3 prospective buyers can live with EVF/liveview, but I dont think that many of those really want a m4/3-type camera. A "Leica-killer" is something completely different from a 5Dmk3.
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #230 on: November 05, 2011, 09:06:51 am »

I suggested mirrorless as a means to:
1. Increase sensor size ("sort of MF but still using EF lenses")
2. Increase efforts/results in liveview/video modes without having to consider OVF or compete with the 1DX

Not as a means to decrease size or weight. I think that many 5Dmk3 prospective buyers can live with EVF/liveview, but I dont think that many of those really want a m4/3-type camera. A "Leica-killer" is something completely different from a 5Dmk3.


Would it be possible to increase the imaging circle of EF lenses by removing the mirror then? I was under the impression that wasnt the case although I don't see any reason why the sensor aspect couldnt be changed to get more from the existsing image circle.

I agree a Leica Killer is something very different but to me if Canon were going to produce a large sensor mirrorless that kind of camera seems more likely than a high megapixel landscape/studio body.
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Nigel Johnson

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #231 on: November 05, 2011, 02:13:01 pm »

...although I don't see any reason why the sensor aspect couldnt be changed to get more from the existsing image circle.

This would not work with all the existing EF lenses as some of them (such as the EF 24-105mm 1:4 L IS USM) include a non-circular stop at the rear of the lens that blocks non-image forming light outside the normal 2:3 image. The stop has straight edges that offer more blocking at the top and bottom and less at the sides (landscape image). Thus the lens does not provide access to the full image circle.

Regards
Nigel
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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #232 on: November 05, 2011, 03:27:47 pm »

Would it be possible to increase the imaging circle of EF lenses by removing the mirror then? I was under the impression that wasnt the case although I don't see any reason why the sensor aspect couldnt be changed to get more from the existsing image circle.
I recently read an article about a MF back that could use EF lenses. I think that the T/S lenses were especially useful.
Quote
I agree a Leica Killer is something very different but to me if Canon were going to produce a large sensor mirrorless that kind of camera seems more likely than a high megapixel landscape/studio body.
I think that a "Leica killer" would be crop sensor. I am not a Leica user myself, but it seems to me that the critical point is having a no-frills, ergonomically superb, compact, stealthy camera with great manual focus.

For a 5Dmk3 geared towards video, landscape, macro and perhaps studio work, I think that a well-executed mirror-less design might make sense. No one knows if "well executed mirror less" is something that Canon are able to do, I guess.

-h
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #233 on: November 06, 2011, 09:19:18 am »

I recently read an article about a MF back that could use EF lenses. I think that the T/S lenses were especially useful.I think that a "Leica killer" would be crop sensor. I am not a Leica user myself, but it seems to me that the critical point is having a no-frills, ergonomically superb, compact, stealthy camera with great manual focus.

TSE lenses naturally have a larger imaging circle than normal EF lenses though.

I'd guess that "Leica killer" wouldnt really be literal in Canon's case as I don't see them going for exactly the same market. My guess would be that they'd take the size, prime lenses and maybe the retro style and put them in a cheaper more modern system with AF.

For a higher megapixel body aimed at landscape/studio users MF just seems to make more sense to me. For one thing your not up agenst as high end AF from the SLR bodies and for another the size, weight and potentially price saving is going to be that much greater potentially getting all three closer to the 35mm sized DSLR market's expectations.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #234 on: November 06, 2011, 02:00:40 pm »

For a higher megapixel body aimed at landscape/studio users MF just seems to make more sense to me. For one thing your not up agenst as high end AF from the SLR bodies and for another the size, weight and potentially price saving is going to be that much greater potentially getting all three closer to the 35mm sized DSLR market's expectations.
Depends where you are coming from. I am guessing that EF lense compability is a large selling point for Canon and for many prospective customers.

-h
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phila

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #235 on: November 07, 2011, 01:05:51 am »

This would not work with all the existing EF lenses as some of them (such as the EF 24-105mm 1:4 L IS USM) include a non-circular stop at the rear of the lens that blocks non-image forming light outside the normal 2:3 image. The stop has straight edges that offer more blocking at the top and bottom and less at the sides (landscape image). Thus the lens does not provide access to the full image circle.

Regards
Nigel

In fact nearly all EF lenses have some form of rectangular non-image forming "blockers" somewhere in the optical path. This is always going to be the thing that precludes the use of bigger than 24x36 sensors (that use the full area of the sensor) in an EF mount body. Unless Canon decides to develop a new range of lenses of course...

hjulenissen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #236 on: November 07, 2011, 01:25:51 am »

In fact nearly all EF lenses have some form of rectangular non-image forming "blockers" somewhere in the optical path. This is always going to be the thing that precludes the use of bigger than 24x36 sensors (that use the full area of the sensor) in an EF mount body. Unless Canon decides to develop a new range of lenses of course...
Thank you for sharing, I did not know. Do these "blockers" have a similar function to the lense hood, or is it simply "putting stuff inside a cramped space where it wont affect IQ on a 24x36mm anyways"? In the first case, it would perhaps be trivial for Canon to re-release their entire EF lense line without "blockers" at minimal delay/cost. In the latter case, that wont be possible.

But it would seem that at least the tilt/shift lenses are exceptions.

-h
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #237 on: November 07, 2011, 03:17:08 am »

Depends where you are coming from. I am guessing that EF lense compability is a large selling point for Canon and for many prospective customers.-h

Would most landscape/studio users really want a body lighter than the 5D though? You go much smaller than that and alot of lenses are going to be very unbalanced ala the NEX.

MF would have the advanatge that a mirrorless could potentially bring body size, weight and perhaps price into a range where 35mm users are more comfortable with.

Just to divert the discusssion again one thing I'v wondered in the past is whether it would be possible to have a tilit function built into a body. As I understand it tilting doesnt need a larger imaging circle the way shifting does and seems like it would give a Canon high MP model a definate advanatge over the competision with diffraction increasingly starting to be an issue.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #238 on: November 07, 2011, 05:13:23 am »

Would most landscape/studio users really want a body lighter than the 5D though? You go much smaller than that and alot of lenses are going to be very unbalanced ala the NEX.
I think not, but I did not suggest it either?
Quote
Just to divert the discusssion again one thing I'v wondered in the past is whether it would be possible to have a tilit function built into a body. As I understand it tilting doesnt need a larger imaging circle the way shifting does and seems like it would give a Canon high MP model a definate advanatge over the competision with diffraction increasingly starting to be an issue.
If you had fast/accurate control of the position of the image sensor, you might be able to rotate/shift/tilt it in the 3+3 axes (?) for image stabilization as well as for camera movements. The potential seems so large that the fact that it is not yet available suggests that it is hard to do in practice and/or does not make economic sense.

-h
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telyt

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #239 on: November 07, 2011, 08:11:17 am »

... Do these "blockers" have a similar function to the lense hood

Yes.  They block light outside the image area that could reflect on surfaces in the mirror box and cause flare.
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