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Author Topic: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability  (Read 105132 times)

DaveCurtis

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #200 on: October 22, 2011, 08:59:06 pm »

.
I'll take Option 1 thanks and see if Option 3 eventuates over the next 6-12 months. With the caveat, that as yet I have not seen any RAW files from the 1DX - until such time as I do I reserve all right to reconsider my options.  ::)

That's my view too.

I went from a 1D II 8mp to 1DS III @21mp. This was a good gain in resolution plus good improvements all round.

But going back to 18MP just doesn't appeal.

I'll just wait and see what else Canon has to offer in the next 12 months.

 
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Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #201 on: October 22, 2011, 11:43:55 pm »

Did you know HE created the word? 
The term was introduced by the Scottish philosopher James Frederick Ferrier. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Frederick_Ferrier. Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot. Another word: Irony.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #202 on: October 23, 2011, 12:57:29 am »

Hi,

Smaller pixels always look bad when you compare at actual pixels, but if you resize both images to a given size the playing field is more level. Smaller pixels will have better detail (assuming similar frame size).

Diglloyd has compared Nikon D3 and Nikon D3X at different ISOs and there was little difference if both images were scaled to same resolution.

The way it used to be Nikon D3 and all Canons used off chip ADCs (Analogue to Digital Converters) while recent Sony sensors like the one in Nikon D3X use several thousands of on chip ADCs, one for each column. Having on chip converters the signal paths are shorter and therefore less noisy. Having thousands of them mean each reading can take longer time, that is good for precision and noise. So Nikon D3X has much lower read noise and same applies to Nikon D7000 (and Pentax K5, and all new Sonys).

Would Canon design a CMOS-sensor with on chip converters it would be a significant step forward.

Best regards
Erik

I do hope that someone will produce high-resolution 135 format sensor, Canon or Nikon, preferably around 5 µm pixel pitch that this about 34 megapixels so we can actually see how such as sensor will perform. It seems like large pixel pitch is an advantage for lowlight photography, and even if it was not the photon shot noise will naturally limit the resolution so a high pixel count would be meaningless. It is also hard to exceed about 12 megapixels in sharpness if the camera is handheld. Obviously the 1D-X sensor aims at these applications and I think it will be very good at it.

However, I will be surprised if this sensor provides anything extra at base ISO. At base ISO you can have smaller pixel pitch and still have good dynamic range. As I have mentioned before the Phase One IQ180 actually has only about 5 µm pixel pitch, and it's dynamic range is said to be good. That Canon marketing says 1D-X sensor is an improvement in image quality regardless of ISO may be true compared to their own sensors which has had dynamic range problems compared to the competition, mainly due to pattern noise. I don't think it will produce a better ISO100 photos than the Nikon D3x from 2008.

Looking at the previous generation Nikon D3x (small pixel pitch, specialised at high res) vs D3s (large pixel pitch, specialised at lowlight), the sensors have similar noise levels and dynamic range at base ISO, which one is better I dare not say, there are so many things you can do wrong when comparing sensors with different pixel pitch (usually to the disadvantage for the sensr with smaller pixels), but it is clear that there is not a huge difference despite very large difference in pixel size. The D3x loses at high ISO of course, but if you shoot mainly at base ISO from a tripod clearly a big pixel size is not what you need. Unless there is some revolutionary new technology in the new 1D-X sensor which provides radically improved dynamic range at base ISO and this only works with large pixels. That could be the case, but I don't think it is likely.
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Bryan Conner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #203 on: October 23, 2011, 02:26:01 am »


More like: quite a ridiculous twist on your part of what I actually said.

Of the current cameras, I do believe the Canon will stand out for the reasons already stated.

However, I spoke nothing of "all time," of the possibilities for future cameras, of stocks plummeting, nor of any other silliness that you said.

These were entirely the fabrications of your own mind.

Jack


.

No, my statement was not entirely a fabrication of my own mind.  It was fabricated based on your statement.  You stated, "Will this camera be able to shoot a static scene at the same quality shots as a Hasselblad? No. But as an all-around sports, wildlife, and action camera, it will have no equal anywhere".  You are predicting the future and presenting it as fact.  Nowhere, in your previous posts in this thread, have you mentioned "current" cameras.  You only added that in your post quoted above.  So, without the "current" clarification, your statement was indeed about "all time". 

I respect your right to believe what you wish to believe.  I have no doubts that it is possible for the camera being discussed to be a wonderful camera.  But, I do not present my beliefs as facts in the present and especially not when the subject is one of the future. 

You stated: "Your fanboyism of Nikon is clear as day, and that's fine Bernard, but none of us has had the opportunity to actually see the results of this new camera".  In your first quoted statement above, you state that this new camera "will have no equal anywhere".  How can you say it "will have no equal anywhere" and also state "but none of us has had the opportunity to actually see the results of this new camera""?
 
And you think that I am the one saying "silliness"?   ??? ???

When you contradict yourself as you did in your quotes above, you are showing that you are only arguing for the sake of arguing.  And, as in other threads, you do this in a manner that is degrading to other people.  I learned a long time ago, when someone puts other people down (degrades them), they are doing this because they lack the ability, the will, the knowledge, or the confidence to lift themselves up.

I apologize if I have in anyway degraded or offended you. 


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dreed

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #204 on: October 23, 2011, 02:38:17 am »

I'm still amazed that working photographers are even buying new cameras these days, Canon and Nikon sell to hobbyists who don't have to justify purchases. ... The business of photography has changed and so too has the buying mentality of working shooters.

When you live and work in a city like Los Angeles where there is a Canon CPS service center and can get same day or next day turn around from the service department for your camera, that makes a big difference as to what you buy.
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torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #205 on: October 23, 2011, 03:20:12 am »

Remember that fascinating comparison Michael did with a Canon G10 (I think it was) vs. a Phase P65+ in print? Well.. virtually no one picked the difference in 13 x 19 prints and those that did, did so because they recognised the depth of field differences. Between a 1DSMK3 and 1DX we are talking a significantly smaller margin - no way will anyone pick it in print at low ISO.

I think any of us that do photography would pick out which one was which. With all quality you need some basic expertise to be able to differentiate. It can be image quality, sound quality or the taste of a fine wine. So when you are in the business of quality it is to satisfy those with a special interest in your area. And yourself.

Heck, even for wildlife this camera is going to be killer.

I have heard complaints from wildlife photographers, there are mainly two of them - since it is not a crop sensor and it is not high resolution the reach is not as good as 1Dmk4. The other complaint is that it cannot have autofocus at f/8 (which 1Dmk4 and 1DsIII can), meaning that the f/4 + 2xTC and f/5.6 + 1.4xTC will become fully manual. This is a double blow on reach, so a 1Dmk4 bird photographer may need very expensive lens upgrades to compensate for the loss in reach.
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torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #206 on: October 23, 2011, 03:43:27 am »

There are not many women on this forum either :-). Men often have an interest in technology and think it is kind of fun with the latest stuff. If your business is good enough you could invest in a new camera just because you can, not because you really need it. I think many professionals which have control over the equipment they use do that. However, the new equipment must provide something useful of course. In terms of technical quality, I think many photographers care more about that than their clients do. If you work professionally with something you will get a special feel for quality in that area, and some will find it very satisfying to not only make great pictures but also provide great technical quality, although they know that most of their clients won't take notice.

I find all the female shooters I know in town are far wiser with their money and their upgrading. Men seem to have the attention spans of puppies with equipment, buying almost anything new that comes along thinking that it will make their images vastly better. The ladies just make their images better regardless.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #207 on: October 23, 2011, 04:15:10 am »

Hi,

Just increasing pixel area by 16% won't have a major effect on image quality, SNR on the pixel level will improve 8% (which I don't think is a visible improvement), but the image needs to be enlarged 8% more, which cancels out any benefit. Doubling the sensor area improves noise and ISO capability significantly, so the D1X will be a winner for 1DIV shooters, while the folks shooting D1sIII at low ISO just get fewer pixels and slightly more moiré. But the latter may buy the 5DII anyway.

Best regards
Erik

This is I believe the crux of the debate for current 1DSMK3 landscape shooters (myself included). For shooters like myself that are on a tripod 90% of the time, mirror lock up and cable release and pretty much locked at ISO100 there is little compelling reason on the surface of it to jump to the 1DX because of its lower (by a bit - technical term  ;D) mega pixels.

A 1DSMK3 file printed will I believe be virtually if not totally indistinguishable from a 1DX file - provided the ISO is low (probably sub 800); leaving little to no reason to jump to the 1DX. Remember that fascinating comparison Michael did with a Canon G10 (I think it was) vs. a Phase P65+ in print? Well.. virtually no one picked the difference in 13 x 19 prints and those that did, did so because they recognised the depth of field differences. Between a 1DSMK3 and 1DX we are talking a significantly smaller margin - no way will anyone pick it in print at low ISO.

That said.. the 1DX will blow the 1DSMK3 out of the water at high ISO and in the FPS department. If those are important to you then that is a compelling reason to jump to the new model. I suspect Sports shooters are over the moon with the 1DX, as will be photojournalists. Heck, even for wildlife this camera is going to be killer. Its just not a replacement for a 1DSMK3 shooter who is focused on contemplative landscape.

So.. what is the 1DSMK3 landscape shooter to do?

Option 1 - continue shooting the 1DSMK3 (it aint broke!)
Option 2 - Jump to MFDB (and drop some serious coin in the process)
Option 3 - Wait for a 1DX's' (or whatever Canon decide to call it - if it comes)

I'll take Option 1 thanks and see if Option 3 eventuates over the next 6-12 months. With the caveat, that as yet I have not seen any RAW files from the 1DX - until such time as I do I reserve all right to reconsider my options.  ::)
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Chris_Brown

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #208 on: October 23, 2011, 10:30:32 am »

Just increasing pixel area by 16% won't have a major effect on image quality, SNR on the pixel level will improve 8% (which I don't think is a visible improvement), but the image needs to be enlarged 8% more, which cancels out any benefit.

I also did this math, and I have to believe that there are other improvements to the sensor, especially if Canon's going to label it as "newly designed". Otherwise, simply install the 1Ds3 sensor and use the new DIGIC chips to acquire the high fps rate.

My blind hope is that, at low ISO, the dynamic range has been improved, and that the S/N ratio of the blue photosites, in particular, has been improved.
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arildah

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #209 on: October 23, 2011, 11:57:29 am »

Very interesting reading the comments, opinions, views from this forum´s users counter to various others. Balanced, intelligent discussion. Great!

I´m not preordering this camera. I have a 1D mkII, and I´ve been planning to upgrade it for quite some time, either to a D3S or a 1D mkIV, until the announcement discussed came off the shelves. I´m a hobbyist, but I do have a small income from photography, and will likely keep it that way for the next fifteen years, in order to create some financial security along with my wife-to-be for our kid(s).

The 1D X is on paper just what I want. I don´t exactly love having to interpolate 1D II files, 8.2mpx, to decent (not great) quality 24x16" prints, and the 18mpx 35mm sensor on this new thing fits my bill nicely. I shoot landscapes and street/people - I secretly have a dream of photojournalism, but that´s probably not going to happen. Cleaner high ISO? I need that more than the 21mpx total, and 3mpx advantage the 1Ds III has.

I believe Canon when they say the 1D X replaces the 1D/1Ds lines, I see no need for them to build another big, rugged outdoorsman´s camera, but I could see them building something of another sensor format, or even a new line of lenses. As far as I know, the image circle of a normal EF lens can fit a 30x30mm square frame inside (this has been speculated on for ages over at certain other fora), and while this would not rival an MF sensor in size, it could definitely be an excuse for Canon to create a new line aimed at landscape and portrait professionals, given that they put an enormous amount of megapixels into it.

Another option for Canon is to dive into the MF market, not with their own camera or sensor, but by partnering with others, or offering their own third party MF AF lenses. Canon knows how to make great optics, they´ve shown that with the latest iteration of the TS-Es, the 100 macro, and the 70-200 IS, so why not?  Caveat: I have no idea how the economics of designing and manufacturing lenses work, but I can certainly appreciate the high retail costs of Hassy, Schneider and Leica lenses.

All that said, if Canon Corp do not pull their heads out of their asses and make a revised 35/1.4 for this 1D X, I might jump ship for the rivalling Nikon model. At least they have a gasketed 35/1.4 for bad weather days in Norway. Consider that a threat, Canon!!  ;D
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ihv

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #210 on: October 23, 2011, 12:30:38 pm »

The more I think about the Canon's developments I believe all the cameras followed by Canon will be cheaper or are at most the same as the 1Dx, but not a cent more.

Getting rid of the 1Ds with such a weird merge (as it offers not much to former 1Ds owners) seems to indicate they have no interest in a product with small quantities (the quantities of the 1Ds series to be more precise, especially after the 5D Mk2). 

Thus, all what happens seems to take place at the 5D-level. The split of that sounds also plausible, more expensive one for former 1Ds users, but as noted, definitely more quantities in mind meaning less priced than the 1Dx.

I believe Canon when they say the 1D X replaces the 1D/1Ds lines, I see no need for them to build another big, rugged outdoorsman´s camera, but I could see them building something of another sensor format, or even a new line of lenses. As far as I know, the image circle of a normal EF lens can fit a 30x30mm square frame inside (this has been speculated on for ages over at certain other fora), and while this would not rival an MF sensor in size, it could definitely be an excuse for Canon to create a new line aimed at landscape and portrait professionals, given that they put an enormous amount of megapixels into it.

Another option for Canon is to dive into the MF market, not with their own camera or sensor, but by partnering with others, or offering their own third party MF AF lenses. Canon knows how to make great optics, they´ve shown that with the latest iteration of the TS-Es, the 100 macro, and the 70-200 IS, so why not?  Caveat: I have no idea how the economics of designing and manufacturing lenses work, but I can certainly appreciate the high retail costs of Hassy, Schneider and Leica lenses.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #211 on: October 23, 2011, 01:30:55 pm »

I think any of us that do photography would pick out which one was which. With all quality you need some basic expertise to be able to differentiate. It can be image quality, sound quality or the taste of a fine winte.
Sure. But in all three cases it is really difficult to avoid "fooling" oneself based on prejudice.

Those who claim to be cool, rational, professional experts seems to be as much affected as the rest of us
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uaiomex

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #212 on: October 23, 2011, 03:05:16 pm »

As I see it, going down to 18 mp was a marketing mistake. In most people's minds it's not appealing (count me in). If Canon have kept the 21 mp count, I'm sure few people would have complained. Just as many claim that 21 down to 18 is invisible resolution wise, I'm sure that 18 to 21 wouldn't make much difference (if any) in noise increase. Most of the difference lies in a 4 year newer sensor technology rather than 3 less mp's.
So, Canon coming with a new flagship combining both pro models with 21 mp sensor bragging only 11 fps and a tad noisier 204,800 iso would have been a much smarter move.

Now, please allow me to add: Going down to 18 mp's was a marketing mistake UNLESS Canon is coming with a new pro body with a higher mp count in a few months. I'm 99.99% that's what is going to happen.
Everybody will be well served and no more complains about "just 18 megapixels".
Eduardo


 
That's my view too.

I went from a 1D II 8mp to 1DS III @21mp. This was a good gain in resolution plus good improvements all round.

But going back to 18MP just doesn't appeal.

I'll just wait and see what else Canon has to offer in the next 12 months.

 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 03:19:31 pm by uaiomex »
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jjj

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #213 on: October 23, 2011, 03:43:29 pm »

Talking to my local photography dealer after the announcement last week he told me that they'd only sold one 1DsIII since the 5DII came out and that was to someone with more money that they knew what to do with [not a pro photographer then], so Canon dropping a camera that didn't sell was hardly a big surprise. Personally I'd take two 5DIIs over a single 1DsIII any day, it saves lens changing in dusty conditions or when under pressure and you have a back up too.

I'm more intrigued by Canon's November announcement.
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bcooter

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #214 on: October 24, 2011, 06:24:09 am »

Talking to my local photography dealer after the announcement last week he told me that they'd only sold one 1DsIII since the 5DII came out and that was to someone with more money that they knew what to do with [not a pro photographer then], so Canon dropping a camera that didn't sell was hardly a big surprise. Personally I'd take two 5DIIs over a single 1DsIII any day, it saves lens changing in dusty conditions or when under pressure and you have a back up too.

I'm more intrigued by Canon's November announcement.

About nine months after the Nikon D3x was in regular delivery, I was speaking to a medium sized camera dealer, (though a very smart dealer) and ask them how many d3x' they've sold and they said 84.

I asked how many to real working professionals (that make 100% of their household income on photography) they sold them to and they said none.

Now with this in mind, I would bet the 1ds3 sales dropped to nothing when canon came out with the 5d2.

I still use both of my 3's regularly (mainly because I bought them before the 5d2 2 was introduced, secondly because they probably are worth about a buck fifty and third because with that locking mechanism they tether very well).

I bet Canons combining on the 1d series was to turn a profit on that camera to pick up sports, wedding and a few commercial photographers that need very high iso and quick frame rates.

Personally, I think the days of 40mpx cameras are somewhat numbered.   Not that there is not a niche market for them, but because I know almost no one in the commercial world whose client's demand that type of resolution that requires flash or high wattage scenarios.  

I know the use of our flash equipment compared to continuous light has gone down 80% in the last two years, mostly due to convergence of shooting the RED for motion and parallel still projects.

Regardless if I am right, I do know that as appealing as the ultra high iso of the Canon X is I will probably wait.  We went on a list but it's still 6 months away, so I'm not holding my breath.

The thing is if I was going to buy a new still camera, I would consider medium format if it went to high clean iso, but that would also be price depended.  (I know this contradicts myself, but I do like the 4+3 format and I do like traditional cameras like my contax'.

The good thing is Canon's 18 mpx camera has renewed my belief that my p21+, p30+, 1ds3's and 5d2 are still very viable.

At least that's a good thing.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 06:35:22 am by bcooter »
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JohnKoerner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #215 on: October 24, 2011, 11:16:21 am »

No, my statement was not entirely a fabrication of my own mind.  It was fabricated based on your statement. You are predicting the future and presenting it as fact.

No I did not attempt to predict the future. Obviously, I was referring to current cameras.

Just think about it: who in their right mind would say with a straight face, "There will never be a better upgrade in the history of photography," given the fact multiple advancements come out every year? And, by the same token, who in their right mind would interpret anything of the sort out of a statement made regarding the current market either?

So, as I said, your entire ramblings have been nothing but fabrications in your own mind of what was actually said.




I respect your right to believe what you wish to believe.  I have no doubts that it is possible for the camera being discussed to be a wonderful camera.  But, I do not present my beliefs as facts in the present and especially not when the subject is one of the future.

Actually, you did worse than that. You have wasted your time (and, even more dreadfully, my own) by arguing about something that was never actually said or implied.





In your first quoted statement above, you state that this new camera "will have no equal anywhere".  How can you say it "will have no equal anywhere" and also state "but none of us has had the opportunity to actually see the results of this new camera""?
And you think that I am the one saying "silliness"?    

I believe this camera will, as an overall tool, be the best camera available within the context of its target market. What I don't believe is that there will "never again" be another camera to surpass it in any way, forever more.

Therefore, if you want to be as petty as you clearly are, then in truth none of us has the right to type a word about this camera yet, nor make any prognostications in any way whatsoever, until such time as we all have either used the camera ourselves--or at least read several competent reviews about this camera, stacked-up against the other brands, under a series of rigorously-controlled tests--to where definitive statements can be made. Absent this, what we are all doing here is giving unsubtantiated opinions, until such time as this camera is out, used, and tested.

So, yes, since we all understand that we're just "thinking out loud" here, making predictions informally, I do think you are being silly here: making up things to argue about, and splitting hairs. I really do.




 
When you contradict yourself as you did in your quotes above, you are showing that you are only arguing for the sake of arguing.  And, as in other threads, you do this in a manner that is degrading to other people.  I learned a long time ago, when someone puts other people down (degrades them), they are doing this because they lack the ability, the will, the knowledge, or the confidence to lift themselves up.
I apologize if I have in anyway degraded or offended you.

Huh? Whom did I degrade here?

If anything, you ought to read the pop-psych of your own last paragraph to yourself, while looking in the mirror.

Jack


.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 11:54:02 am by John Koerner »
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #216 on: October 24, 2011, 11:47:51 am »

This thread has jumped the shark. Time to lock it down. Anyone who actually knows actually knows anything about how this camera actually performs compared to any other camera is probably NDA bound and so is not participating.
But if you guys want to go on attacking each other, please be my guest.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #217 on: October 24, 2011, 04:03:03 pm »

http://usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/digital_slr_cameras/eos_1d_x

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5149972341/canon-eos-1d-x-overview

It appears to be a replacement for both the 1d4 and 1ds3.

Cheers,
Bernard



Yes it sure is…

Canon showed the new X against the old road maps of D and Ds on its own plot halfway between the two. So it seems they are not intending to do an Xs. If they bring out a replacement to the X in ‘’?’’ years time, they appear to suggest Image Quality and Speed will go up together rather than favoring one capability against the other. Since this is a new body I suspect any increase in speed for FPS in future will be in the mirror up mode, possibly future models capable of higher FPS speed with RAW in that new mode.

Add global shutter and FF 24 FPS is not that far off albeit limited in duration/frame spacing. I can feel the tension building in the digital cinema world…  I expect we will see a Cinema focused product in a smaller frame size in any case long before that happens.

They have ditched the F8 central AF capability in favor of better overall AF. The new Nikon style DNA of Colour smart AF/AE and the new AF sensors should allow them to close the gap in areas the Nikon was strong and if not go one better. Although not mentioned, many Canon lenses share distance data with the AF, so it really looks like the Nikon AF/AE system on steroids. Canon’s old system was quicker of the mark but Nikon tracked better once it caught up in some cases, so this new system could put Canon’s AF wows well behind them, although it is at the cost of bird photogs that like to TC on light telephoto lenses. The Full Frame also making the loss of F8 harder to bare for those as they are more likely now to need a stronger TC.

The choice of 18 MP is a good balance (given the Nikon Pro DNA… LOL) between 12 an 24, since some complain the 12 Nikon has too high a starting ISO in use (affecting Flash synch and DOF control in some shooting conditions) and the 24 does not do as well in high ISO. 18 MP may be a good compromise to give a Low to High usable ISO range with great picture quality.

I like all the improvements and think it is much better looking than the last few 1 series versions. The layout of controls is way better in looks alone and hopefully in use.

Canon have many cards to play in future, they are working on their own tri colour sensitive pixels and already have made ultra high mega pixel sensors in test. A mirrorless camera and the associated technologies (view finder and AF) yet to be released. As ever they will never risk much unproven tech on the 1 series although the new colour AE/AF is a first and an exception to this unwritten rule, this suggests beating Nikon was high on the list of priorities!

I think this will be the best yet (all rounder) for Canon in the pro DSLR class… Just hope they keep the price down.
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Bryan Conner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #218 on: October 25, 2011, 08:19:25 am »

haha  :D
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Josh-H

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #219 on: October 25, 2011, 09:07:19 pm »

Canon are pumping the lowlight capabilities of the 1DX - see the new sample fusion video HERE
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