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Author Topic: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability  (Read 104644 times)

BJL

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Why not a 1.3x TC instead?
« Reply #140 on: October 19, 2011, 10:21:37 pm »

Emil,
    With high end gear like this, I am not persuaded that smaller pixels on a smaller sensor help much for telephoto reach, though it is very appealing in my lower-budget realm. A full 36x24mm format sensor plus a 1.4x TC (and one stop increase in ISO speed) would very closely reproduce the performance of 1.3x smaller sensor with 1.3x smaller (so about one stop slower) photosites used with the same lenses. (Alright, a 1.3x TC would give an even closer match.

The main advantage of a smaller sensor in this sort of comparison is cost, so it seems that Canon now judges the extra cost of the larger sensor is not very significant in a body that is so expensive for other reasons. Maybe the cost reduction of not having two very high-end bodies wins out.


P.S. I join the prediction/ hope for a 5D Mk3 with higher res., good 100% coverage VF, etc. at somewhere under $3,000: for competing with DMF, the 5D class of bodies more than matches up for ruggedness, AF, metering, etc.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why not a 1.3x TC instead?
« Reply #141 on: October 19, 2011, 10:49:31 pm »

Emil,
    With high end gear like this, I am not persuaded that smaller pixels on a smaller sensor help much for telephoto reach, though it is very appealing in my lower-budget realm. A full 36x24mm format sensor plus a 1.4x TC (and one stop increase in ISO speed) would very closely reproduce the performance of 1.3x smaller sensor with 1.3x smaller (so about one stop slower) photosites used with the same lenses. (Alright, a 1.3x TC would give an even closer match.

The main advantage of a smaller sensor in this sort of comparison is cost, so it seems that Canon now judges the extra cost of the larger sensor is not very significant in a body that is so expensive for other reasons. Maybe the cost reduction of not having two very high-end bodies wins out.

The major difference is image quality accross the frame. An APS sensor with a higher density of pixels will tap into the highest definition center part of the tele lens while a FF sensor coupled with a 1.4 converter will have significantly lower image corner quality. Whether that matters or not depends on the application, but it is something to be aware of.

P.S. I join the prediction/ hope for a 5D Mk3 with higher res., good 100% coverage VF, etc. at somewhere under $3,000: for competing with DMF, the 5D class of bodies more than matches up for ruggedness, AF, metering, etc.

I wouldn't consider MF as a satisfactory target in terms of physical ruggedness for many types of landscape work, very far from it. The D700 level is the least you should ask for.

I personally believe that Canon will have shot for that, but we'll only know for sure when the cameras are announced/delivered/tested in the field by actual landscape shooters.

There are for sure different types of landscape shooting. If you think grand canyon from the rim, a few hundreds of meters from a car when there isn't too much wind, then yes any camera will do... heck a naked sensor would almost cut it. If you think Japanese/New Zealand/US North West backcountry in a tent with high possibility of rain and/or snow... then ruggedness is not just important, it is actually essential.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 10:51:24 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: Why not a 1.3x TC instead?
« Reply #142 on: October 19, 2011, 11:13:29 pm »

The major difference is image quality accross the frame. An APS sensor with a higher density of pixels will tap into the highest definition center part of the tele lens while a FF sensor coupled with a 1.4 converter will have significantly lower image corner quality.
This "using the best part of the image by cropping" does not persuade me. Firstly, good telephoto lenses do not have much IQ fall-off across he frame: normal to wise lenses suffer this more. Secondly, the TC takes that good central part and enlarges it; it does not use the lower quality part from further off-axis. But if the use of a TC is a problem, there is also the option of using a longer, slower lens, like 400/4 vs 300/2.8, giving similar front element size, and differing mostly by extra diverging lens elements at the back of the 400/4. If anything, the higher f-stops that one gets to use with the larger sensor and it's higher usable ISO could reduce abberations and improve IQ.

P. S. my overall feeling is that format size should be chosen to get lenses that fit your speed and cost trade-offs with minimum F-stops in the sweet spot of around f/4 for zooms, f/2 to f/2.8 for primes. Using a smaller format that needs lower minimum f-stops makes abberations worse (and sacrifices DR when the f-stop is low enough to allow minimum ISO to be used); using a larger format and then having to use slower lenses like f/5.6 zooms to stay within a cost and weight budget just wastes the larger more expensive sensor by having to shoot at higher ISO too much of the time.  (Of course I am a fan of formats smaller than either 36x24mm or "1.3x" because my wildlife lens budget ends at about 200/2.8 or 300/4, and yet I want up to "500mm equivalent" telephoto reach and beyond.)
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ejmartin

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #143 on: October 20, 2011, 01:29:03 am »

There are a variety of tradeoffs.  I would always rather have the lens bare rather than use a TC; there is a slight quality degradation, especially in bokeh, and AF performance definitely suffers (in part because Canon deliberately slows the AF travel when a TC is detected.  So given the choice between a smaller sensor and the bare lens vs a larger sensor with a TC, I would prefer the former (assuming AF is adequate on the smaller sensor camera, which it has not been with Canon; don't have a 7D but understand that it is better than the xxD series while not quite up to 1D performance level).  What I like about higher density is flexibility in framing through crop; rather than having to switch between an APS-C and APS-H body for reach, I have both in the larger frame sensor, and often when shooting action there is no time to switch.  There is less chance of being caught with an unusable focal length.  40D density would be adequate for me, and the 1D4 has that, the 1Dx does not.  And I don't want to trade my 500/4 for the 600/4.

A lot of this is down to personal preferences; those are mine.  Other major issues for me are AF performance and pattern noise.  Looks like Canon has made some effort on the former, time will tell if it has made strides on the latter (though I doubt it given the sensor design info available to date).
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emil

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #144 on: October 20, 2011, 01:43:48 am »

I'm also a bit worried about pattern noise. I hope they have taken it seriously this time around. As I use third-party raw developer software I am dependent on real sensor quality, not software fixups in Canon DPP to hide poor hardware quality. I use Canon and is probably not going to change due to lens investment. I refuse to be a fanboy of a company that lock in the customers and lock out third party development by secret protocols (Nikon etc is no better of course), so if they do something bad I say it :-). To me a high res 5Dmk3 with okay body would be good enough, but after reading this thread I realize that there are those that really need the sturdy 1D body and high res.

As a landscape photographer I am also hoping for an upgrade of the TS-E 45mm and 90mm (90 mm is sharp enough thanks to the focal length allow for simple design, I just want more flexible movements as on the new TS-E 17 and 24), I use tilt and shift quite extensively, and with more resolution on the sensor optimizing DOF with tilt becomes more important. Today I think Canon has an edge by having the TS-E 17 and TS-E 24 II, and they would strengthen that edge by upgrading the 45 and 90.

As a sidenote, it is interesting to see that Hasselblad has solved tilt/shift in their lens lineup by a teleconverter adapter with tilt and shift. Quite elegant, but if you are interested in maximum lens performance it is better with dedicated tilt/shift lenses, or have it builtin in the body as technical cameras.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 02:31:54 am by torger »
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Slater-K

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #145 on: October 20, 2011, 03:13:42 am »

Canon have discontinued the 1ds. Them saying otherwise is marketing BS.

With many professionals trying to save money by buying the 5D II, its sales cannibalised that of the 1ds. These sales to professionals were probably dwarfed by amateurs or semi pros buying the 5D in truck loads. The 1d line kept selling well due to the news and picture agencies buying in such bulk. And that left the 1ds with few sales - and Canon have killed it off.

So the professional news / agency guys have the 1dx.
Amatures or pros trying to save money have the 5d.
Professionals wanting to have high res, rugged build, the best AF, and being willing to pay for the main tool in their tool box ... have lost their camera.

I'm really hacked off with Canon - i'm not looking for a loss leader - but i do want support for the photographer who see's value in buying a professional camera with high MP, rather than than a company that is just a consumer brand, that just so happens to have a camera suited to picture and news agencies.


after reading this thread I realize that there are those that really need the sturdy 1D body and high res.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #146 on: October 20, 2011, 03:32:47 am »

Hi,

My guess is that we may see a new Canon with 30+ MP much like the Nikon D800 (rumored to be released pretty soon). It may even be called EOS 3D.

Now, there is not a world of difference between 18 MP and 21 MP, so I guess that existing D1sIII users would be quite happy with the D1X, a very slight downgrade in resolution and probably some upgrade in image quality.

Best regards
Erik

Canon have discontinued the 1ds. Them saying otherwise is marketing BS.

With many professionals trying to save money by buying the 5D II, its sales cannibalised that of the 1ds. These sales to professionals were probably dwarfed by amateurs or semi pros buying the 5D in truck loads. The 1d line kept selling well due to the news and picture agencies buying in such bulk. And that left the 1ds with few sales - and Canon have killed it off.

So the professional news / agency guys have the 1dx.
Amatures or pros trying to save money have the 5d.
Professionals wanting to have high res, rugged build, the best AF, and being willing to pay for the main tool in their tool box ... have lost their camera.

I'm really hacked off with Canon - i'm not looking for a loss leader - but i do want support for the photographer who see's value in buying a professional camera with high MP, rather than than a company that is just a consumer brand, that just so happens to have a camera suited to picture and news agencies.


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Erik Kaffehr
 

torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2011, 03:49:51 am »

Hi,

My guess is that we may see a new Canon with 30+ MP much like the Nikon D800 (rumored to be released pretty soon). It may even be called EOS 3D.

Now, there is not a world of difference between 18 MP and 21 MP, so I guess that existing D1sIII users would be quite happy with the D1X, a very slight downgrade in resolution and probably some upgrade in image quality.

The thing is that 1DsIII is old and 1DX is new and will perhaps exist into 2016. 1DsIII was high res when it came, but now we are expecting more. Nikon D3x has shown that you can push the 135 format closer to medium format quality, and I think many hiking landscape photographers hoped for a continued effort to do so. 1DX is clearly not such an effort, and by discontinuing the 1Ds and not having a clear statement on what the intention is on the high res side people get worried. If Nikon do announce that rumoured 36 MP D800 without AA filter and Canon does not come up with any high res camera at all then there will be an interesting situation.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 03:53:20 am by torger »
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2011, 04:25:19 am »

This new camera will be only available 6 months from now, so during this time Canon will gauge the reaction of the market, especially the pro-market, to which the 1 series caters to. They are most likely working on a high res camera, but are threading carefully, with the worldwide crisis and all.

It makes sense to merge the 1.3 and the FF sensor pro-camera lines, and Canon themselves have hinted at that more than once, in the past. 18 megapixels is certainly more than enough for PJ, sports, and even lots of landscape/fine art/advertising jobs, so the 1DX will cater for many professional photographers. They are at a point where they could finally manage to marry a FF high res sensor (18 megapixels) and fast frame rates.

What seems to indeed be "missing" is the "super high res" FF sensor, the "true" successor of the 1DS and 5D lines; I think that these two will be also merged, resulting in a camera that combines a "really high megapixel" FF sensor with pro-build quality and specs. To be honest, the 1DS cameras were just too big and heavy, why the incorporated power grip? Maybe Canon will take the best from the 5D/1DS/7D lines and create a new camera, with pro-build quality and specs, but with the size of the 5D or 7D. All they need to do is take the 5D and build it with the 1DS or 7D quality, updating the autofocus, metering, etc. It would be something like the 7D size and build, but with highres FF sensor.

Speaking for myself, I would be happy if they released such a camera; it is much better to lug around a "7D like camera" than the 1DS monster...

DaveCurtis

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2011, 04:57:46 am »

What I like about DSLRs is the versatility.

What I would like to see is a high res sensor with pixel binning. Say 36/18PM or something similar with no AA filter.

I could the shoot high res landscapes with my Zeiss primes and use high ISO pixel binning for wildlife with a big white super telephoto.

But perhaps I am dreaming. :)
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2011, 05:13:33 am »

Seems to me that every time we get a sensor with a pixel frequency going above a certain point that the quality goes backwards. Just a suggestion here. Has Canon perhaps not made a 36 or 39 or whatever MP sensor because it cannot be made at 24 X 36 mm?

In the past we didn't expect 35mm to do everything. Thats why we used MF and 4X5 or 8X10. We also didn't spend days bleating because the new Ilford or Kodak 35mm film was not a leap up into 8X10 quality.

You want more pixels then buy MFDB. You want high ISO and portability then use DSLR. You want it all in one camera? Good luck with that.
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DeeJay

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #151 on: October 20, 2011, 05:43:30 am »

Facts please

So I am sorry, but the advise "canon user, buy an MF camera if you are not happy about the 18mp 1DX and stop bitching" is IMHO simply very poor advise that is not based on first hand experience shooting landscape more then a few 100 yards from a car.

Sorry, where exactly did I ask people to stop bitching? Where do I say if you are not happy...?

I've shot a P65+ for some time now and it blows anything dSLR I've tried out of the water. Colour, tonality, resolution. I've found nothing *in actual use* that can beat it. Trust me, if it did I would be using it. Why wouldn't I if it were cheaper, smaller, easier to use? More recently I've been using the IQ160, which is barely, noticeably different and the IQ180 which is in another league entirely. Bear in mind you can pick up a used P65 for £13K - the prices of these are coming down quite quickly.

Judging on previous backs, 16mp, 22mp and 30mp, it won't be long before 60mp, new, comes down in price and becomes a lot more accessible, perhaps even the standard. Hasselblad may be able to package an H4D-60 as they do now with the HD4-31 in a price point sub £10K complete. I'm sorry but an 18mp dSLR will NEVER be able to compete with that in too many regards for me to even consider it.

Even when it comes down to pixels alone. When the AD needs to crop the heck out of your shot because the client wants to change the direction of the campaign after it has been shot then you're really not going to go far on 18MP. 60 MP cropped down to 18MP looks great at double page. 18MP cropped down to 6 looks terrible at double page.

Shoot tethered with a team of AD's, CD's, Clients etc watching a 30" monitor. Do it with a P65 and then do it with an 18MP dslr. Watch their reaction when you zoom in to 100%....

18MP is limited and it seems by Canon's move and statement that this REPLACES as the flagship it may well be where the flagship dSLR may settle. I for one will not be going down this track, and you can argue till your blue in the face - MF is the way forward for demanding high end work and I say this as someone who was going to invest in the new 1Ds system and hoping for 30MP at least and I do indeed hope they produce something like the 3D describe in posts above for the times I need more mobility.

Canon made that camera for the people who bought the 1 series cameras and I bet the 1D outsold the 1Ds by a lot. It a subset

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 05:56:00 am by DeeJay »
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torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #152 on: October 20, 2011, 06:56:15 am »

It is quite a large difference between a P65+ at 41x54mm and 60 MP and an entry level medium format hasselblad at 33x44mm and 31 MP.

I think the resolution limit for the 135 format is around 45 megapixels. For medium format it is probably around 100 megapixels. The main limiter for both formats is lens resolving power.

I really want to do medium format, but to be worth the disadvantages I want full-frame, 40+ megapixels and a technical camera with high resolution lenses. This is not cheap. The SLR-like low-cost medium format with sub 40 MP, crop sensor, and no camera movements is less interesting, it is too little difference compared to 135 format.

In 4 - 5 years the market may be different, but now it seems to me that it is too early to move to medium format. The attractive systems are too expensive, and the affordable ones offer too little, unless in the unlikely event that both Canon and Nikon decide to stop at ~20 megapixels.

What would be a really great development in medium format world would be a digital back with a great live view, with a ~300 ppi screen. Perhaps it is impossible with CCD technology, and perhaps too much termal noise problems, I don't know. Anyway, if you had a good live view, you could use traditional technical cameras with bellows and focus precisely, and no need for sliding back with ground glass and loupe etc. No need for expensive high precision helicon focusing lenses. Lower cost technical medium format systems could then be made. So far there is no medium format back that has a good live view though...
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BJL

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2011, 08:31:53 am »

There are a variety of tradeoffs.  I would always rather have the lens bare rather than use a TC ...
I completely agree, about trade-offs in general and TC avoidance in particular; I just wanted to point out that the arguments in favor of sensors of higher resolution (I mean lp/mm, not pixel count) are not as simple when one considers all the lens choice options. And overall, Canon's high end lens system is more adapted to the FOV choices it gives with 36x24mm ... but that is clearly not true for every photographer's needs.

For some, a better option might be a camera of the same resolution as the 1D Mk3 ( or even a bit higher), simply adding more pixels to fill the 36x24 frame. The biggest downside would be a lower frame-rate (Canon does seem to have fallen a bit behind Sony there). Frame rate could be restored with a Nikon-like high speed crop mode (1.3x "APS-H" mode, or more likely a 1.4x "virtual TC"), but that would have a low light handling disadvantage in situations where the larger format could use the same f-stop, like when a f/2.8 zoom would be used in either format.

This all seems to point to Canon's choice working better for most PJ and sports (so long as the big lenses can be used mostly at a fixed location), though another choice would serve some uses better, like wildlife photography when one seeks more portability without sacrificing camera ruggedness, telephoto reach, and such.
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fotometria gr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2011, 08:50:51 am »

Seems to me that every time we get a sensor with a pixel frequency going above a certain point that the quality goes backwards. Just a suggestion here. Has Canon perhaps not made a 36 or 39 or whatever MP sensor because it cannot be made at 24 X 36 mm?

In the past we didn't expect 35mm to do everything. Thats why we used MF and 4X5 or 8X10. We also didn't spend days bleating because the new Ilford or Kodak 35mm film was not a leap up into 8X10 quality.

You want more pixels then buy MFDB. You want high ISO and portability then use DSLR. You want it all in one camera? Good luck with that.
My opinion coincides with yours, I'm with you to believe that extremely high resolution on FF sensors will negatively affect IQ! It will advance on the future in small steps as tech advances, but the larger angle that the light rays hit the sensor towards the edges and corners of the frame makes light reception from the pixel much more difficult. A larger pixel has a significant advantage on this as is one with less well depth and this exactly why I believe, that the DSLR in topic here by Canon will put all existing 1D Canons into shame IQ-wise. I also believe that all those rumors about 36mpx Nikons, are gonna stay rumors! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2011, 09:20:29 am »

My opinion coincides with yours, I'm with you to believe that extremely high resolution on FF sensors will negatively affect IQ!

The IQ180 has 5.17 um pixel pitch. That makes 32 megapixels on 135 format. The rumoured 36 MP is indeed high, but I would not consider it as crazy high. The pixel pitch will still be larger than on the typical APS-C camera.

I don't have enough technical knowledge but I would guess that medium format IQ advantage may be more due to CCD technology and focus on base ISO performance rather than they would have large pixels, because those new backs don't have... for the 135 format, video, live view and at least decent high ISO are so important features that it may affect base ISO performance.
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MrSmith

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2011, 10:08:47 am »

the few people i know waiting on this camera are now not ordering one (myself included)
they want 60fps full HD and a sensor in the 30's with a pixel size similar to the 7d but full frame, better AF would be nice but not a deal breaker.
everyone wants different things from a camera and a lot of people will be upgrading but i'm going to have to wait for an 's' version if there is one.
hopefully nikon will force canon's hand here by releasing something soon with a similar spec.
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2011, 10:11:22 am »

Canon have discontinued the 1ds. Them saying otherwise is marketing BS.

I thought their press release was fairly unambiguous on this point.

"...the EOS-1D X will be a high-speed multimedia juggernaut replacing both the EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS-1D Mark IV models in Canon’s lineup."
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ixania2

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2011, 10:22:12 am »

Even when it comes down to pixels alone. When the AD needs to crop the heck out of your shot because the client wants to change the direction of the campaign after it has been shot then you're really not going to go far on 18MP. 60 MP cropped down to 18MP looks great at double page. 18MP cropped down to 6 looks terrible at double page.


how often would this occur? and would the AD use the 6MP crop out of 18 which looks terrible? if yes, then you shouldn't care either. if no, then what's the problem?
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ixania2

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2011, 10:28:11 am »



When DSLRs first came out, there was a definite uprising in technology in each successive generation ... to where each new season there was a marked gain in performance from the season before ... but now I think the "really noticeable" progress in image quality from DSLRs has reached a plateau ... so where does a camera company go from there?


we said this when 6mp dslrs arrived: who needs more? more than enough! and ibm told bill gates, some years ago: who needs a pc?
same old story, rg. reaching a plateau...
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