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Author Topic: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability  (Read 95328 times)

tonywong

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2011, 01:54:29 pm »

Personally I would have been happier with a higher pixel count, matching the pixel size of the 1D4.  For wildlife photography, where one is often focal length limited, it's the pixel size rather than count that matters, and 18MP on FF is a big step back from 16MP on APS-H.  Basically, Canon is telling those people whose lens kit was predicated on APS-H that they have to buy new lenses to use the 1Dx in the same way they use the 1D4 and have the same subject resolution.  At that point, it becomes a serious question whether to keep with Canon.

My question would be where would you go? The only 1.3 crop system is from Canon, and moving to Nikon would basically be the same as moving to the 1DX, since you're not getting anything significantly better. If you really need a good balance of pixel density and image quality, the 1Div is pretty hard to beat for the time being.
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tonywong

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2011, 01:56:24 pm »

7D is a comparison for D7000, D300s is different..., it's D700 body (better quality than 5d2), not much for a sensor, for modern tech, but a hell of a body... there are people that need this. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

What makes the 7D body inferior to the D300s besides the dual card slots?
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LA30

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2011, 01:58:51 pm »


- Canon has a big announcment on Nov 4th which I think will meet the needs of the pro high res market



Actually I think that it will be a video announcement.

Ken
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ejmartin

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #123 on: October 19, 2011, 02:14:00 pm »

7D is a comparison for D7000, D300s is different..., it's D700 body (better quality than 5d2), not much for a sensor, for modern tech, but a hell of a body... there are people that need this. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Exactly.
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emil

fotometria gr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #124 on: October 19, 2011, 02:18:43 pm »

What makes the 7D body inferior to the D300s besides the dual card slots?
Nearly everything... ergonomics, construction, viewfinder, AF, sealing ...you name it. It doesn't mean that 7d is poor, rather d300 is top! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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tonywong

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #125 on: October 19, 2011, 02:58:13 pm »

Nearly everything... ergonomics, construction, viewfinder, AF, sealing ...you name it. It doesn't mean that 7d is poor, rather d300 is top! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

I don't find my D300 to be any better than my 7D for what you mentioned...I must have a good 7D or poor D300. Ergonomics are debatable though, the focus switch on my Nikons always gets flipped over to a different mode. Then again the rotary dial on my 7D is possessed too.

Viewfinder is identical at .63x, both with LCD superimposition. AF, debatable depending on how you have it set up but no complaints on either camera.

Sealing, never taken the D300 in the rain, but I have in 5C rain and -42C for the 7D, so no complaints there either. Thom Hogan's review of the weather seals on the D300 didn't make it sound like it was much better than the 7D's, from what I can read. Construction, both are plastic over magnesium frames, so unless bits are falling off the 7D I don't see much difference there.

Only complaint I have about the Canon junior bodies are the grips. They have no weather seals and violate the seal on the battery compartment. Nikon's way makes more sense to me.
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fotometria gr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #126 on: October 19, 2011, 03:01:34 pm »

I don't find my D300 to be any better than my 7D for what you mentioned...I must have a good 7D or poor D300. Ergonomics are debatable though, the focus switch on my Nikons always gets flipped over to a different mode. Then again the rotary dial on my 7D is possessed too.

Viewfinder is identical at .63x, both with LCD superimposition. AF, debatable depending on how you have it set up but no complaints on either camera.

Sealing, never taken the D300 in the rain, but I have in 5C rain and -42C for the 7D, so no complaints there either. Thom Hogan's review of the weather seals on the D300 didn't make it sound like it was much better than the 7D's, from what I can read. Construction, both are plastic over magnesium frames, so unless bits are falling off the 7D I don't see much difference there.

Only complaint I have about the Canon junior bodies are the grips. They have no weather seals and violate the seal on the battery compartment. Nikon's way makes more sense to me.
Good!
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JohnKoerner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #127 on: October 19, 2011, 03:30:51 pm »

7D is a comparison for D7000, D300s is different..., it's D700 body (better quality than 5d2), not much for a sensor, for modern tech, but a hell of a body... there are people that need this. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

You don't know what you're talking about.

I am not talking about the 5D2; I am talking about the 7D.

The 7D is better than the 5d2 in many respects also (if not every respect, except sensor). Better video, AF, weather-sealing, functionality, etc.

Most independent tests give the 7D the edge in just about every function over the D300s.

Jack


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« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:19:25 pm by John Koerner »
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JohnKoerner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2011, 03:39:02 pm »

I have all these needs, I shoot almost every day of the week and each shoot is thousands of frames. I also want MP. I want the detail and the quality. i want the very best I can get. I know a lot of photographers in the same boat.
My MF Rig does all this and doesn't need to be handled with kid gloves. Is it any slower? No. Even when I shoot with a dSLR I work tethered and it's really not that much faster. It is easier to shoot given it's size and therefore makes it desirable to use for certain applications but it's not a reason not to use MF which keeps up and the quality blows it out of the water.
The thing is this. I think we are witnessing a moment in time where 35mm is returning to it's roots. Because they became capable such a capable camera they crossed into the regions where MF and even large format users used them instead. Now, the dSLR's can't compete with the MF and as MF prices come down - why even try to compete? Stick to what they do, within the boundaries and make it as brilliant as you cancamera. Dare I say it, the technology race has stopped with the dSLR, it's boundaries set and the required market, which was still a mystery has now been made.
So maybe this really does make Canon market leaders after all...


I think you said a mouthful here.

When DSLRs first came out, there was a definite uprising in technology in each successive generation ... to where each new season there was a marked gain in performance from the season before ... but now I think the "really noticeable" progress in image quality from DSLRs has reached a plateau ... so where does a camera company go from there?

The answer is into making their DSLRs more useful than those produced by competitors (faster, better AF, better build, better connectivity, longer lifespan, more starage capacity before switching batteries/cards, etc.)

Canon seems to be addressing a host of other real-world needs besides a bigger sensor, since image quality has pretty much become excellent across the board now.

Jack


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« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:41:07 pm by John Koerner »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #129 on: October 19, 2011, 03:41:44 pm »

Hi,

The Nikon D300 is something like four years old, so it's quite natural that the much newer 7D it is more advanced than the D300.

Best regards
Erik

You're don't know what you're talking about.

I am not talking about the 5D2; I am talking about the 7D.

The 7D is better than the 5d2 in many respects also (if not every respect, except sensor). Better video, AF, weather-sealing, functionality, etc.

Most independent tests give the 7D the edge in just about every function over the D300s.

Jack


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Erik Kaffehr
 

JohnKoerner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #130 on: October 19, 2011, 03:50:41 pm »

Hi,
The Nikon D300 is something like four years old, so it's quite natural that the much newer 7D it is more advanced than the D300.
Best regards
Erik


The original Nikon D300 came out about the time of the Canon 40D and 50D and was better than both.

Then the 7D came out and trumped them all. Then Nikon upgraded to the D300s, which is comparable to the 7D, but still falls short in most respects.

The Nikon D7000 has a new and improved sensor, but ultimately it is a toy in body and functionality compared to the 7D.

Jack

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DeeJay

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #131 on: October 19, 2011, 04:23:52 pm »

Uhmm... maybe I'm not so well-informed on the subject, but to me it seems like the other way around, that the 135 DSLRs will continue to eat chunks of the medium format market. The Nikon D3x and Canon 5Dmk2 and 1Ds3 already did. Having a decent but not high res but high speed DSLR in the lineup is not new, Nikon has had D3s, and the 1Dx is a modern version of that. Many rumours around Canon/Nikon strategies of coming model goes in the direction that there will be a 1Dx type of flagship (ok res, high speed) and a lower cost high res DSLR. With 30-40 megapixel cameras at around $3500 135 DSLRs will present a medium format budget alternative also in the future, perhaps even stronger than before.

And has really MF prices come down to the level of DSLRs? Last time I checked a pre-owned 39 megapixel P45+ costs around $15,000, and that's only the digital back. You need a body and lenses too. Of course there's more to it than just megapixels (DOF, bokeh quality, camera movements etc), but I see no reason why DSLRs would not continue to grab even more of the medium format market by reaching a "good enough" level at a lower price.

MF quality blows a dSLR out of the water. DSLRs will always eat into the market for those that are happy with the results from those cameras. But once you've used an MF I think you will find it difficult to go back if what ever you are shooting justifies it or has the need for it.

List price for a brand new Blad HD4 31 with 80mm lens is somewhere around £8K. It's an exceptionally capable camera and really not that much more than a 1d x and lens for a working Pro.

I really think this is the cross roads (or yet another) for photographic technology. The end of the tech race that was happening. I think it's the genius of Canon to see the market as it is and have the guts to call the shots. That market which they have created, captured or realised is an exceptionally large one.
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torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #132 on: October 19, 2011, 05:23:19 pm »

List price for a brand new Blad HD4 31 with 80mm lens is somewhere around £8K. It's an exceptionally capable camera and really not that much more than a 1d x and lens for a working Pro.

Oh, I see. I did not really look into SLR-type of MF but I guess that is indeed an option. I'd rather have technical camera though so I get tilt/shift movements, better wide angle lens designs and modularity without lock-in (lens, body, back from different brands). Having an SLR type of design you have other advantages though, so it is a matter of taste.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #133 on: October 19, 2011, 06:28:39 pm »

MF quality blows a dSLR out of the water. DSLRs will always eat into the market for those that are happy with the results from those cameras. But once you've used an MF I think you will find it difficult to go back if what ever you are shooting justifies it or has the need for it.

Facts please.

The only domain where a MFDB is signficantly superior to a top DSLR like the 3 years old D3x in terms of image quality is more pixels and apparent pixel sharpeness due to the lack of AA filter. The very latest models like the IQ160 and IQ180 have a bit more DR also (maybe the H4D-60 but nobody seems to own one), but all the other backs have similar or less DR. They have less DR but give the impression that they have more because they have been calibrated for under-exposure.

Now, there are very good reasons to use a MF solution including the quality of some lenses, aspect ratio,... but based on data and facts, image quality is IMHO not one of them anymore unless you are willing to spend 30.000+ US$.

They are also very good reasons why a D800 at 36 mp without AA filter would be a much superior solution for landscape, including:
- lighter and more compact system,
- much wider software support (DxO,...),
- more robust and splash proof,
- much cheaper system once lenses are factored in (think of the price of a MF 28 mm lens),
- more DoF everything else being equal due to the smaller sensor,
- more lenses including T/S, wider lenses, longer lenses, lenses offering more shallow DoF,...
- a much more flexible and generic solution with a fast AF, video, good high ISO image quality,...

The only thing coming close is the 645D but it lacks live view and is heavier and larger.

So I am sorry, but the advise "canon user, buy an MF camera if you are not happy about the 18mp 1DX and stop bitching" is IMHO simply very poor advise that is not based on first hand experience shooting landscape more then a few 100 yards from a car.

Cheers,
Bernard

madmanchan

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #134 on: October 19, 2011, 07:10:58 pm »

Quote
They are also very good reasons why a D800 at 36 mp without AA filter would be a much superior solution for landscape, including

But, is that a fact

Sorry, couldn't resist.   :)
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Eric Chan

John Camp

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #135 on: October 19, 2011, 07:35:13 pm »

@ John Koerner: I bet few serious pros could pick out a 7D shot from a D300s, after appropriate post-processing, and I doubt that any "shortcomings" in features wouldn't be outweighed by personal preferences - that is, given a bit of time to shoot, Nikon shooters would prefer the D300s, and Canon shooters the 7D. One big difference: the D300s is an minor upgrade, not a new model. Something more interesting may be coming down the road from Nikon.

The new Canon, if it's just what it seems to be, will be an excellent sports shooter (which is to mean, street, wildlife, handheld shooter) just like the successor to the D3 series, whenever that gets here, and I suspect that's close to the sweet spot for most photographers. Higher res cameras seem to me to need tripods and much slower working speeds to maximize IQ. But, I think a complete system needs both. I think Canon will offer both, but we don't know when. Same with Nikon. One thing -- it seems to me that those two companies should involve themselves with some serious Photoshop plug-in company and commission specific software that can provide such things as demosaicing for their high res cameras, so they can get rid of the AA filter...A purpose-built piece of software that doesn't have to be applied to a multi-manufacturer range of cameras might be very interesting, if done by a serious company, and by serious, I don't mean the Nikon, Canon, or Sony software divisions.

I see some problems for the Canon from APS-C rivals like the D7000, which offers very similar resolution and high-ISO performance, at 1/4 the price. I don't fully understand Canon's pricing for this new camera. In fact, the biggest problem I see for this new camera may not involve performance, but perceived value. *What if* Nikon's next offering is a 30+ megapixel with D7000 ISO performance, followed by an updated D4 with performance similar to the Canon's. If you're buying a new system, which would you choose? Nikon may have stolen a competitive march here, depending, of course, on what they come up with.

Somebody here said they like the new camera because more pixels would mean more processing power, etc. I think that's a non-factor for most people - RAM is cheap and getting cheaper all the time. If your computer can't handle 30mp, you need a new computer, and if you're willing to spend almost $7,000 on a camera body, you can probably afford it.
 
  
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 07:37:40 pm by John Camp »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #136 on: October 19, 2011, 07:39:38 pm »

But, is that a fact?  

Sorry, couldn't resist.   :)

Yes, it is a fact that it "would". :)

Besides, note that the D3x already is all of that today, minus a bit of compactness and weight.  ;D

Now, the truth is that... I don't really care. To each your own and those who prefer shooting landscape with an MF camera should definitely do so.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 07:43:59 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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kers

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #137 on: October 19, 2011, 07:42:10 pm »

So why is Canon promoting their new pro -sports/press- body while you have to wait 6 months before it is in the shops?

my guess:
A nikon D4 is coming very soon and Canon wants to tell the Canon guys… Hey we are almost there too with something for you- don't go away!
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dreed

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #138 on: October 19, 2011, 08:12:20 pm »

...
I see some problems for the Canon from APS-C rivals like the D7000, which offers very similar resolution and high-ISO performance, at 1/4 the price. I don't fully understand Canon's pricing for this new camera. In fact, the biggest problem I see for this new camera may not involve performance, but perceived value. *What if* Nikon's next offering is a 30+ megapixel with D7000 ISO performance, followed by an updated D4 with performance similar to the Canon's. If you're buying a new system, which would you choose? Nikon may have stolen a competitive march here, depending, of course, on what they come up with.

Somebody here said they like the new camera because more pixels would mean more processing power, etc. I think that's a non-factor for most people - RAM is cheap and getting cheaper all the time. If your computer can't handle 30mp, you need a new computer, and if you're willing to spend almost $7,000 on a camera body, you can probably afford it.

If you read the comments from Chuck Westfall, it would seem that the price on the 1DX is not yet set in stone.

What if the early announcement is part of their market research into what is an appropriate and acceptable price tag?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #139 on: October 19, 2011, 08:50:50 pm »

If you read the comments from Chuck Westfall, it would seem that the price on the 1DX is not yet set in stone.

What if the early announcement is part of their market research into what is an appropriate and acceptable price tag?

Hum... the way products are normally designed and priced is:
1. Spec definition, including the target price point based on various forms of market research
2. Design in parallel with process planning and sourcing -> actual fixed and variable costs
3. Market re-assessment to finalize the price based on actual cost and projected sales figures, themselves resulting from the level of expected perceived value for the customers, competitive situation, local economic situation,...

Phase 3 does exist but the degree of tuning possible compared to the target price point in phase 1 is rather limited for obvious reasons, probably rarely more than +/- 15-20%.

Canon lowering significantly the final release list price of the 1DX is therefore unlikely because it would essentially be a clear admission that the value for the customer is in fact lower than they expected it would be. Corporations typically don't do that, especially after performing what is close to a 180 degrees shift of philosophy to align themselves with the approach of their most fierce competitor.

Now, it could be that they maintain the list price but lower the dealer price which would result in a lower street price. This would be a similar failure in terms of design process, but would be less visible which would be important for a Japanese company like Canon.

Cheers,
Bernard
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