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Author Topic: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability  (Read 94526 times)

torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2011, 01:54:47 am »

That sums it up right there. This camera is quite clearly an action camera, not a static "fine art" camera.

If massive mpx is what a person wants, to maximize large, static "fine art" or billboard shots, they should go medium format. This simple truth is most professionals aren't trying to create "fine art" with their cameras. Hell, even most nature photographers don't have any real need to blow-up their photos to massive proportions, and surely most news/sports photographers don't either.

So what is Canon supposed to do? Create a specialized super-high mpx camera to satisfy a very small "fine art" sector (but who basically can't afford medium format) ... or should Canon build an overall workhorse of a camera that will satisfy far more professionals overall?

The simple truth is an all-new 18mpx, rapid-fire, low-light-capable camera, with leading-edge AF and excellent rugged durability ... all supported by the best overall lens lineup of anyone ...is simply going to sell more cameras to more total professionals (not necessarily "specialty" professionals) than would any other option.

I think they did the right thing, really.


I agree. I think the right thing to do on top of this is to release a 5Dmk3 which is a high megapixel camera, and I think that is exactly what they are going to do eventually.

Unlike in professional photography, among amateurs landscape photography is a very large genre, perhaps the largest. Many amateur photographers are also technically interested, and many want lots of megapixel (not all know how to make use of them though :-)).  There are more amateurs than there are professionals, so this market is big, but a $6800 camera like the 1DX is too expensive for it. But say a $3500 30-40 megapixel camera which could be slow and have simplistic AF would fit in well. This camera would also be selling to professionals that has special needs for high resolution. The unfortunate thing about this is that there will be no high res camera with flagship quality robustness and weather proofing, but probably will be "good enough".


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bcooter

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2011, 02:53:11 am »

snip......

So what is Canon supposed to do? Create a specialized super-high mpx camera to satisfy a very small "fine art" sector (but who basically can't afford medium format) ... or should Canon build an overall workhorse of a camera that will satisfy far more professionals overall?
snip.......

I think they did the right thing, really.

Jack


.

This week working with 6 and 7 young assistants all were impressed with the news of the new Canon, much more than a high megapixel Nikon, or a medium format back.

I was surprised of the overwhelming positive response, though I agree as I never have cared for computer pixel peeping and given my options use my p21+ vs my p30+, use my 5d2 as much as my 1ds3's and even from time to time use my original 1ds1.

But getting back to the 1dx, it fits the market for this next generation of photographers as they don't care about $40,000 mega money, mega pixel still cameras with limited iso,  that are slow and stills dedicated.

They mostly own 5d2's and Nikon d3x/d700s and if they're going to spend over 6 thousand for a camera, the new Canon will be the one, because they believe it's a camera that finally proves megapixels are not near as important as overall usability and longer term investment.

In fact all of these young photographers work in LA and New York regularly and on high profile projects and in their young short careers, they've noticed that even the highest level photographer is squeezed on time, has to up their production quantity and given the nature of having to shoot stills and video in parallel know that the aspect of going to high clean iso and tether through ethernet, is more than a small step forward.

(FWIW, most of these assistants having learned on digital have also added film to their personal repretioire shooting everything from contax rangefinders to twin lens mamiya and rollei's, so the old ways and older formats are not lost on them.

Still, when it comes to writing the check, all said if they find the extra money and the Canon comes out glitch free, that is the direction they will go.   They all know that in the rare instance some client demands 6 million pixels, they can always rent for the week.

Time will tell, but I personally think this was a brave, smart move by Canon.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:00:06 am by bcooter »
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DaveCurtis

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2011, 03:09:28 am »

I dont want to shoot in the dark!
I dont want to shoot at 14 fps!
I dont want to shoot movies!

I currently own a 1Ds3 and I cant see an upgrade path for me. Perhaps if Canon bought out a 3D series with a high res sensor. The 5DII had great image quality and great value for the $$ but lets be frank, compared to a 1Ds, the body and AF was rubbish. Perhaps these issues could be addressed with the 5DIII.

Currently, not a happy camper!
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stevesanacore

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #83 on: October 19, 2011, 03:24:54 am »

Yes, and of course I JUST bought a 1D Mark IV a couple of days ago, having searched hard for one. Figures..... That said, the 1Dx almost seems more marketed toward cinematography in overall capabilities. Does this mean the 1Ds convept is dead?? or does it just kill off the 1D series...

I doubt a serious DP is going to want to use a DSLR for video anymore. There are many great digital S35 full frame cine cameras on the market since the original 5Dmk2, 7D and the RED ONE started the large sensor trend. If canon is depending on that market they are in deep trouble.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #84 on: October 19, 2011, 03:48:24 am »

Personally I think they should call it the 1DX3, just to confuse people even more as to whether it's really a Canon or a Nikon camera. Who comes up with these names?

Hi Mike,

The naming convention is consistent with how Canon have named almost all of their (D)SLRs. What's really puzzling to me is the jump from Mark IV to X, it suggests to be a deliberate ending of the line (not likely that we'll see an 1DY and 1DZ). Let the speculation begin ... ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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stevesanacore

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #85 on: October 19, 2011, 03:57:43 am »

I dont want to shoot in the dark!
I dont want to shoot at 14 fps!
I dont want to shoot movies!

I currently own a 1Ds3 and I cant see an upgrade path for me. Perhaps if Canon bought out a 3D series with a high res sensor. The 5DII had great image quality and great value for the $$ but lets be frank, compared to a 1Ds, the body and AF was rubbish. Perhaps these issues could be addressed with the 5DIII.

Currently, not a happy camper!

Maybe our upgrade path is going to be with Sony :-)

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Rhossydd

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2011, 04:31:28 am »

Whilst I can understand some people's angst about the lack of new pixels in this camera, are people missing something important here ?

Is Canon implying that c.20mp is as far as they can go with their current lens offerings ?
The 21mp Canons already reveal the deficiencies of the current EF range, including the L series glass. So maybe capping the EOS range at c.20mp makes sense ? A 30mp sensor might just not actually deliver better results if the lenses available aren't capable of delivering sufficient resolution.

This leads to the interesting dilemma they might be in, stay with their core "35mm" market or expand into the riskier territory of building a brand new 'MF' high resolution system. especially as it's a difficult time to spend vast amounts on R&D.
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torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2011, 04:38:53 am »

Whilst I can understand some people's angst about the lack of new pixels in this camera, are people missing something important here ?

Is Canon implying that c.20mp is as far as they can go with their current lens offerings ?
The 21mp Canons already reveal the deficiencies of the current EF range, including the L series glass. So maybe capping the EOS range at c.20mp makes sense ? A 30mp sensor might just not actually deliver better results if the lenses available aren't capable of delivering sufficient resolution.

This leads to the interesting dilemma they might be in, stay with their core "35mm" market or expand into the riskier territory of building a brand new 'MF' high resolution system. especially as it's a difficult time to spend vast amounts on R&D.

It is a very relevant question. Lens resolving power is the main limiter of how far you can go with resolution. However, when I have looked into resolution tests made on APS-C cameras (which have really small pixels) and estimated the increased resolution loss in the fullframe corners etc I think a reasonable "upper limit" for full-frame 135 with the sharpest lenses are today say 45 megapixels, concerning bayer and deconvolution techniques it may be worthwhile to go even a little higher than the lenses can resolve. There's always possible to have low-res binning modes too (like canon mRaw and sRaw) in situations you don't need the resolution, such as in action photo or when the used lens is not really that sharp.

By having APS-C-sized pixels on a full-frame sensor you can also make a camera with built-in "crop modes", which sports and wildlife photographers probably would like, so when you don't have the reach in the lens you can get some additional by enabling a crop mode, and have the resolution that a crop camera would have.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:44:22 am by torger »
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DeeJay

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2011, 04:44:55 am »

If they were to keep the two separate cameras, I think this would be a solid update. I still keep waiting for them to say - April fools...

I shoot with a P65+. I was hoping Canon would release a 40MP(ish) 1Ds that I could use in conjunction with the P65 for when I need more mobility and fast shooting.

There was always talk of them creating an entirely new model with high MP count but they describe this one as their new flagship so it doesn't sound like it's going to happen.

I really think this is a poor move when you can jump into a base level Hasselblad for about the same price.

And naming it after the Nikon equivalent is just ridiculous. It really looks like a joke.

To me, it looks like Canon is in real trouble. Perhaps they were effected more by the Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster than was thought.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:47:19 am by DeeJay »
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Clyde RF

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #89 on: October 19, 2011, 05:49:29 am »

I completely agree with torger's prediction on this, but would like to add the following: If a manufacturer releases one model camera, it should not be seen as their comment on the desirability of releasing a different model designed to fulfill an entirely different purpose, whether that second model is aimed at a large or small niche market or otherwise, (and niche market essentials are usually addressed in some fashion), while it is reasonable for any professional or amateur photographer to choose the affordable solution which best preforms for them, without regard for the divergent needs of any number of other folks with diffent requirements. If Canon misses the boat on providing an updated, manual focus friendly, low iso oriented, very high definition model, there's always Sony or Nikon. Sure...I would be so delighted to be the proud owner of an Arca rm3di or Alpa Max, complete with P-1 IQ-180 back and all of the trappings, but not being a high rolling pro or one otherwise sufficiently advantaged, I rather doubt that such lies in my immediate future. What I would really appreciate, (but am to much of a cynic to hope for), is an open platform 24/35 36mp or higher comos back, with magnifiable live view and possibly focus peaking. I wouldn't think this would require massive development costs, as Canon, Sony, and Nikon already have the essentials, and could probably cost effectively provide more reliability and usability than that currently found in recent lower end mfdb's. Actually, from my perspective doing only landscape, and not having to fear loosing megabucks by missing opportunities to do other types of imaging endeavors, acquiring a product with the precision build of a good technical camera seems to be a much better long term investment than does spending for a multitude of bells and whistles I have no use for on a slr which has no built in movements.         
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kers

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2011, 06:27:09 am »

looking at the specs of the 1DX It is clear Canon changed a lot to their professional body line.
New AF - faster processor- built in lens corrections- new exposure control- wifi - quality video etc.

Also it is full frame.

To make a 40MP DSLR they are almost ready.
Just wait- find- develop the right 40MP chip- put it the new body- change the camera name and ready you are!

in this new lineup they only have to make one body that fits all. That cuts the costs.
for sure an 1DXs will come.

About lens quality - today Canon as well as Nikon are taking lens quality even more serious -as they also get more expensive-choose a shift lens and you are well served.
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VitOne

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2011, 06:33:21 am »

I shoot dancing in low light conditions and this camera seems to be the fulfillment of my dreams. I am a Canon 1D Mark III user and the settings that I have to use to work are ISO3200, 2.0, 1/400. I really appreciate the good high ISO performance that this camera seems to offer. I will test it as soon as possible.

For other working purposes I will keep my P30+ and maybe upgrade it to a P45+ or P65+ (depending on the deals that I find). Actual price of a P30+ (with some warranty left) is not far from the price of a 35mm camera, sometimes it is also cheaper.

I am really happy with a lower resolution camera with higher image quality. Too often there is confusion between IQ and MP. In my opinion people looking for higher quality should move from 35mm to a medium format system. But I can perfectly understand that often a better AF, higher FPS, stronger body, faster response camera is needed.

I am a Canon (and Nikon,  Leica, PhaseOne) user and I am very happy with the specification of this new product.

Just my 2 cents.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2011, 06:36:49 am »

looking at the specs of the 1DX It is clear Canon changed a lot to their professional body line.
New AF - faster processor- built in lens corrections- new exposure control- wifi - quality video etc.

Here is some more in depth information, revealing even more changes to the camera (e.g. viewfinder with transparent LCD and new focus screen) and sensor design (e.g. additional/better transistors per sensel):
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/eos_1d_x_explained.do

Cheers,
Bart
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jjj

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2011, 06:53:45 am »

I doubt a serious DP is going to want to use a DSLR for video anymore. There are many great digital S35 full frame cine cameras on the market since the original 5Dmk2, 7D and the RED ONE started the large sensor trend. If canon is depending on that market they are in deep trouble.
There is a huge market for serious DPs shooting films with cameras such as the the current Canons. Why? The vast majority of film makers are not shooting $50 million hollywood features. They do corporate work, ads, shorts, low budget films etc and the video capable DSLRs allow them to make much better looking films than was previously affordable. Other times, big budget productions use them as their form factor is very versatile [House being a well known example] and with the sensor being bigger than 35mm cinefilm cameras like the 5DII also give a different look that may be desirable.
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JohnKoerner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2011, 07:28:25 am »

Whilst I can understand some people's angst about the lack of new pixels in this camera, are people missing something important here ?
Is Canon implying that c.20mp is as far as they can go with their current lens offerings ?
The 21mp Canons already reveal the deficiencies of the current EF range, including the L series glass. So maybe capping the EOS range at c.20mp makes sense ? A 30mp sensor might just not actually deliver better results if the lenses available aren't capable of delivering sufficient resolution.
This leads to the interesting dilemma they might be in, stay with their core "35mm" market or expand into the riskier territory of building a brand new 'MF' high resolution system. especially as it's a difficult time to spend vast amounts on R&D.


Maybe this is true with elder lenses, but it seems like you haven't been paying attention to the new L glass Canon's been developing ... (100mm macro, 70-200, a soon-to-be-announced 200-400, a new 500mm, 600mm, etc.) ... they're superb and in a class by themselves.

Jack


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JohnKoerner

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2011, 08:03:46 am »

I agree. I think the right thing to do on top of this is to release a 5Dmk3 which is a high megapixel camera, and I think that is exactly what they are going to do eventually.
Unlike in professional photography, among amateurs landscape photography is a very large genre, perhaps the largest. Many amateur photographers are also technically interested, and many want lots of megapixel (not all know how to make use of them though :-)).  There are more amateurs than there are professionals, so this market is big, but a $6800 camera like the 1DX is too expensive for it. But say a $3500 30-40 megapixel camera which could be slow and have simplistic AF would fit in well. This camera would also be selling to professionals that has special needs for high resolution. The unfortunate thing about this is that there will be no high res camera with flagship quality robustness and weather proofing, but probably will be "good enough".

It seems reasonable that the 5D series may well be the "less-robust, more mpx" series in their lineup. Really, such a bifurcation makes perfect sense:

* Absolute robustness implies "heavy use, always moving, constantly subjected to elements."
* Super fine resolving power implies "calm, still use, single-image taking."

I think this basic logic is why the faster, more robust, weather-sealed cameras do not have the same number of megapixels as "art" cameras ... and it is also why the large-sensor, high-mpx "art" cameras do not have the same weather-sealing/rugged durability of action cameras. Each represents two totally different ways of shooting with two totally different markets, so it would make perfect sense to have these realities reflected in two totally different model types of camera.

The new 1DX is clearly focused on the largest professional sector, which represents very busy, high-volume, working professionals who have a greater need for speed, low-light, huge battery capacity, and rugged durability than they have a need for a "fine art" camera that is designed to be perfectly stationary, handled with kid gloves, and that does everything slowly.

Perhaps the 1D/1Ds bifurcation proved too confusing, and now the solo 1DX is now going to represent the rugged professional camera, while the 5DMKIII is going to be the less-rugged, but very high mpx camera, so we'll see.

Jack


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torger

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2011, 08:34:55 am »

So when can we get a RAW file from this camera to analyze? :-)

Much about claimed noise levels and dynamic range these days is about in-camera raw-to-jpeg processing. A RAW file gives a more honest view of how the sensor actually performs. I hope they don't have lots of line noise in there...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 08:37:03 am by torger »
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Josh-H

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2011, 08:40:45 am »


Quote
So when can we get a RAW file from this camera to analyze? :-)

Thats the question I would like answered as well. Till we see a RAW file (or rather a few of em') its all just speculation...

I imagine raw file samples will be quite slow in coming given its 6 months away from official release. I noticed in the online videos I saw of CPS members handholding the camera at the NZ press event that the CF door was taped shut. I can only assume Canon does not yet want real 'files' out there for pixel peeping. Maybe still working on firmware....
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fotometria gr

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2011, 09:04:13 am »

Would be OK if Canon offered the top end amenities (AF, frame rate, weather sealing, firmware sophistication, etc) in an APS-C body, as is the case with the D300(s); however, Canon has chosen to differentiate the 1 Series by only offering these things there and not in an APS-C body (or the 5D series).   So not a solution (for me).
I believe they will do that in the near future..., maybe this new DSLR is a 180deg direction change for Canon..., I do believe so, but its only a hatch. I think they got the message from the market during the last 4 years, it wasn't a clear message for the first couple of years, but I am sure they where well surprised with the marketing results during the last couple of years. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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DeeJay

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Re: Canon EOS 1DX announced - March 2012 availability
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2011, 09:06:12 am »

The new 1DX is clearly focused on the largest professional sector, which represents very busy, high-volume, working professionals who have a greater need for speed, low-light, huge battery capacity, and rugged durability than they have a need for a "fine art" camera that is designed to be perfectly stationary, handled with kid gloves, and that does everything slowly.

Perhaps the 1D/1Ds bifurcation proved too confusing, and now the solo 1DX is now going to represent the rugged professional camera, while the 5DMKIII is going to be the less-rugged, but very high mpx camera, so we'll see.

Jack

I have all these needs, I shoot almost every day of the week and each shoot is thousands of frames. I also want MP. I want the detail and the quality. i want the very best I can get. I know a lot of photographers in the same boat.

My MF Rig does all this and doesn't need to be handled with kid gloves. Is it any slower? No. Even when I shoot with a dSLR I work tethered and it's really not that much faster. It is easier to shoot given it's size and therefore makes it desirable to use for certain applications but it's not a reason not to use MF which keeps up and the quality blows it out of the water.

The thing is this. I think we are witnessing a moment in time where 35mm is returning to it's roots. Because they became capable such a capable camera they crossed into the regions where MF and even large format users used them instead. Now, the dSLR's can't compete with the MF and as MF prices come down - why even try to compete? Stick to what they do, within the boundaries and make it as brilliant as you cancamera. Dare I say it, the technology race has stopped with the dSLR, it's boundaries set and the required market, which was still a mystery has now been made.

So maybe this really does make Canon market leaders after all...
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