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Author Topic: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute  (Read 64279 times)

amsp

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2011, 01:00:07 pm »

Anyone hear anything about a new camera from Phase/Mamiya? That's really the only thing that would get me excited nowadays. I'm extremely happy with my back, I just want a better camera to put it on.

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yaya

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #141 on: October 18, 2011, 02:17:09 pm »

......and it's just more of the same. I keep fighting the urge for MF then Canon bring out something like this and MF starts to make sense again.

Kevin.

One day Kevin...one day.... ;)
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #142 on: October 18, 2011, 02:56:21 pm »

Great to see that they didn't just chase more MP pointlessly. Dropping to 18MP for their FF flagship is actually a rather bold and progressive move. As they continue to improve readout noise, the larger pixels have enabled them to reach astonishing high ISO. I used to joke about "1 meeellion ISO!" in the mode of Dr. Evil, but that day is getting closer.

All I'd really care about is the sensor; IMO stuff like the 61 AF points is completely superfluous!

Ray
But it is kind of confession from Canon that they where doing something wrong with their "resolution advantage" as they fead many people with this idea, isn't it? Now we have all this people waiting for that 36mpx D800 (which of course will never be)...., lets just hope that the megapixel war is over and that they will work for the things that really matter to photography, like DR, noise, LPF ,A/D convertors. The things that will make us to invest on a camera for many years! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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bcooter

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #143 on: October 19, 2011, 02:55:25 am »

snip......

 lets just hope that the megapixel war is over and that they will work for the things that really matter to photography, like DR, noise, LPF ,A/D convertors. The things that will make us to invest on a camera for many years! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Sorry for the double positing though I think this applies.

This week working with 6 and 7 young assistants all were impressed with the news of the new Canon, much more than a high megapixel Nikon, or a medium format back.

I was surprised of the overwhelming positive response, though I agree as I never have cared for computer pixel peeping and given my options use my p21+ vs my p30+, use my 5d2 as much as my 1ds3's and even from time to time use my original 1ds1.

But getting back to the 1dx, it fits the market for this next generation of photographers as they don't care about $40,000 mega money, mega pixel still cameras with limited iso,  that are slow and stills dedicated.

They mostly own 5d2's and Nikon d3x/d700s and if they're going to spend over 6 thousand for a camera, the new Canon will be the one, because they believe it's a camera that finally proves megapixels are not near as important as overall usability and longer term investment.

In fact all of these young photographers work in LA and New York regularly and on high profile projects and in their young short careers, they've noticed that even the highest level photographer is squeezed on time, has to up their production quantity and given the nature of having to shoot stills and video in parallel know that the aspect of going to high clean iso and tether through ethernet, is more than a small step forward.

(FWIW, most of these assistants having learned on digital have also added film to their personal repretioire shooting everything from contax rangefinders to twin lens mamiya and rollei's, so the old ways and older formats are not lost on them.

Still, when it comes to writing the check, all said if they find the extra money and the Canon comes out glitch free, that is the direction they will go.   They all know that in the rare instance some client demands 6 million pixels, they can always rent for the week.

Time will tell, but I personally think this was a brave, smart move by Canon.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:00:49 am by bcooter »
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #144 on: October 19, 2011, 03:34:19 am »

Anyone hear anything about a new camera from Phase/Mamiya? That's really the only thing that would get me excited nowadays. I'm extremely happy with my back, I just want a better camera to put it on.



Yes, there will be a new camera from Phase/Mamiya it will have a very good sensor, wonderful image quality, kick like a shotgun, and focus in modeling lights like a 90 year old with cataracts.

Now, concerning the Canon, it's pretty obvious there is a second announcement coming down the chute. My prediction is a 45MP still/ 1080p video hybrid with no mechanical shutter and an electronic viewfinder, on-sensor feature tracking for focus and the ability to extract stills from video. In other words,a one-size fits all workhorse production unit for high-end studio and tethered work.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 03:44:03 am by eronald »
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #145 on: October 19, 2011, 03:58:22 am »

Yes, there will be a new camera from Phase/Mamiya it will have a very good sensor, wonderful image quality, kick like a shotgun, and focus in modeling lights like a 90 year old with cataracts.

Now, concerning the Canon, it's pretty obvious there is a second announcement coming down the chute. My prediction is a 45MP still/ 1080p video hybrid with no mechanical shutter and an electronic viewfinder, on-sensor feature tracking for focus and the ability to extract stills from video. In other words,a one-size fits all workhorse production unit for high-end studio and tethered work.

Edmund

Mmm...I don't think we're there yet.

Have they talked about raw video? Because it is not a luxury. Have they talk about in-board ND filters?...(because I don't know you guys but I'm completly fed-up of the matte-box circus. Are we talking about usability and free our devices or not?), connectors: again this hdmi and mini jacks? etc... to add in the list ...

I see more of the same design that we always know. A little better implemented, a little more clever, but it's the same old bloody song. A 50 years old dusty design camera. I don't understand the excitement really.

You know what,  I think the suprise (the real combo) might come not from Canon or Nikon but from video camera makers. Won't be surprise if tomorrow we'll shoot proper stills on a Red or a Sony or a Pana, all in raw with minimum need of accessories.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:12:22 am by fredjeang »
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #146 on: October 19, 2011, 04:35:38 am »

Fred,

 I'm sure Canon can make a video camera if they really want to, and call it a 1Ds ...japan is a free country :)
 I believe they have brought out several PL-mount zoom lenses of late ...

Edmund

Mmm...I don't think we're there yet.

Have they talked about raw video? Because it is not a luxury. Have they talk about in-board ND filters?...(because I don't know you guys but I'm completly fed-up of the matte-box circus. Are we talking about usability and free our devices or not?), connectors: again this hdmi and mini jacks? etc... to add in the list ...

I see more of the same design that we always know. A little better implemented, a little more clever, but it's the same old bloody song. A 50 years old dusty design camera. I don't understand the excitement really.

You know what,  I think the suprise (the real combo) might come not from Canon or Nikon but from video camera makers. Won't be surprise if tomorrow we'll shoot proper stills on a Red or a Sony or a Pana, all in raw with minimum need of accessories.
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #147 on: October 19, 2011, 06:56:33 am »

Sure. If Canon want, they can.

But they apply a successfull recipy, in other words, they enhance what's already there. Saying that this device is a 4x4 is marketing claim. The 1D X (how strange this fashion to put the X) is a still camera, with better video capabilities, yes, but it is a still camera exactly using the same design as the former ones, as the Nikons, as the MF...nothing new under the sun if not a little more inteligently implemented in terms of specs.

Nothing that we do not have yet in a little bit more matured version. A little better low-light (but it's not going to be amazingly better than the 5D2), maybe shooting at 240000isos, things like that.

I find this camera absolutly unexciting

and it's not gona be cheap like the 5d2.

I think actually that the coming players will not be the ones who have monopolized the pro set-ups those years.



As we are in a MF forum, what all that has to do with MF ? well, it has to do in the sense that MF players are IMO in front of a delicate and critical choice today: or, keeping alive the tradition, what's already there, for a bunch of collectionists and a few high-end applications; or...changing their minds and start to get involved into convergence and different designs keeping modularity.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 07:12:55 am by fredjeang »
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #148 on: October 19, 2011, 08:26:45 am »



As we are in a MF forum, what all that has to do with MF ? well, it has to do in the sense that MF players are IMO in front of a delicate and critical choice today: or, keeping alive the tradition, what's already there, for a bunch of collectionists and a few high-end applications; or...changing their minds and start to get involved into convergence and different designs keeping modularity.



I think we as MF users can expect things to really change for us when it becomes feasible for someone to make cheap backs that fit old Hassleblads, Rolleis. At that point I will be a retiree, and will get a Hassy back that gives me back those big clear square images which I've missed for so long. And I'll be able to take the autoportrait for my Facebook memorial. BTW, I'd expect facebook memorial album design to become big business.

Edmund
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #149 on: October 19, 2011, 09:49:03 am »

Sorry for the double positing though I think this applies.

This week working with 6 and 7 young assistants all were impressed with the news of the new Canon, much more than a high megapixel Nikon, or a medium format back.

I was surprised of the overwhelming positive response, though I agree as I never have cared for computer pixel peeping and given my options use my p21+ vs my p30+, use my 5d2 as much as my 1ds3's and even from time to time use my original 1ds1.

But getting back to the 1dx, it fits the market for this next generation of photographers as they don't care about $40,000 mega money, mega pixel still cameras with limited iso,  that are slow and stills dedicated.

They mostly own 5d2's and Nikon d3x/d700s and if they're going to spend over 6 thousand for a camera, the new Canon will be the one, because they believe it's a camera that finally proves megapixels are not near as important as overall usability and longer term investment.

In fact all of these young photographers work in LA and New York regularly and on high profile projects and in their young short careers, they've noticed that even the highest level photographer is squeezed on time, has to up their production quantity and given the nature of having to shoot stills and video in parallel know that the aspect of going to high clean iso and tether through ethernet, is more than a small step forward.

(FWIW, most of these assistants having learned on digital have also added film to their personal repretioire shooting everything from contax rangefinders to twin lens mamiya and rollei's, so the old ways and older formats are not lost on them.

Still, when it comes to writing the check, all said if they find the extra money and the Canon comes out glitch free, that is the direction they will go.   They all know that in the rare instance some client demands 6 million pixels, they can always rent for the week.

Time will tell, but I personally think this was a brave, smart move by Canon.

IMO

BC
I agree on the reasoning and everything you say, I also agree that this will be the best Canon ever by far... What I find strange, is you calling them brave for something they did wrong for the last 4 years or so, I guess its a different perspective the way we judge their decision, I call it "requiring apology" from the customers for doing wrong all this time, you call it "brave" but against what? The enemy that was doing different was themselves! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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bcooter

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #150 on: October 19, 2011, 11:28:15 am »

I agree on the reasoning and everything you say, I also agree that this will be the best Canon ever by far... What I find strange, is you calling them brave for something they did wrong for the last 4 years or so, I guess its a different perspective the way we judge their decision, I call it "requiring apology" from the customers for doing wrong all this time, you call it "brave" but against what? The enemy that was doing different was themselves! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr


I've never held the new canon and have no stake in the company, but yes . . . I think it's brave to go against the grain.

Since the start of digital capture (still and motion) we've all bought into more pixels.

From 6 megapixels to 12 we needed to because of aliasing, but past that it just seemed like diminished returns, especially since reviewers, testers, dealers and brick wall photographers kept pointing out look, you can see that part of the  wall is more detailed.

In the late in the early 2000's when we bought cameras like they were suv's.   We'd get one that had 50 more horsepower of course it weighed 500 more lbs. so most of the gains were negated.  

So this is a camera that goes against the common sales structure of bigger is better.

I read a brief part of that canon press release and it mentioned that uprezzing will satisfy a client's need for large imagery or something like that and once again that's something I agree upon, because if the image is sharp and not blocked with noise then it looks a lot better uprezzed than a blotchy soft image, but everyone knows that.

What I do know, is that this will rage on another dslr vs. medium format debate.  The medium format faithful will say, "see, see, Canon can't compete, the dslr faithful will say "see, see, it goes past 200 iso", but in reality if it really does do high iso that's useable, there are a lot of applications that can work for.

Imagine a small powered led or hmi set that holds the detail of flash?   That would be pretty amazing and I'm sure somebody will say, "I never shoot at night, but hey, nighttime is 1/2 of our life and to some the best half".

These images were shot with small hand held leds. that weighed less than 3 lbs each and a 5d2.  This type of light opens up a lot of possibilities.



Past that . . .

I do know I dig the idea of 12fps because I've shot 4, 6, 8, and 12fps video for effect and it's pretty cool.    

I'll buy one probably for that reason alone.

I think all of this is kind of funny.  I have an 18mpx and 30 mox digital backs and when I use them I use the p21+ a lot more than the larger back because it's faster, more responsive and honestly I've never had a client ask or know the difference, even when I've shot them side by side.

Maybe that's a new  level of mfd back makers.  Dust off the shelves of the the p21+ and lower the price, maybe with a better lcd.

Just a thought.


IMO

BC


« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 11:45:07 am by bcooter »
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #151 on: October 19, 2011, 12:20:20 pm »

I don't get it.

We are in digital age now for quite a long time. Motion is a reality now for enough time for camera manufacturers to take that seriously.  We are in a ww economical and cyclic crisis for also quite a long time. And what do we see? more of the same: last-minute adaptations.

-Why should we still have to put-up with designs that where made basically a century ago? when electronics gives almnost any kind of possibilities for designers to be creative to a point that wasn't thinkable before.
-why should we still have to stand things like matte-boxes and all the zacuto's artillery in 2011 that make looks the camera like a huge and hugly mecano?
-why this plague of micro fragile conectors in still camera devices?
-Why it still seems so painfull to have a device that works both for still and motion imagery so the investment is still doubled.
-Why we are still talking after all those years of softwares developpement about having to get a pentagon suite to color grade, and that the only exciting and "revolutiuonary" thing that appeared in the last decades was something called final cut pro x that is not ready yet and full of bugs.
-why can't we zoom and focus any modern motion lens with our cell-phones? do timelapse with our cell-phones but yes, having some fancy gadgeteries like the electronic clap on the I.phone and those, for sure, come at the speed of light, like any useless thing.
-why can't we shoot 24 fps 12MP (and I'm not even talking about Raw) image sequence for more than 2 sec and are still stucked into ridiculous buffer stuff, space limitations, mess of more and more exotic codecs, menus more complicated that a 747 cockpit, still softwares that are just doing still and motion softwares that are doing still the painfull way, new formats or codecs like this Canon will have that nothing will read, as always, so we'll need to chase more third-party stuff, more devices, more micro program and latest versions so we buy.
-why do we still have to transcode in 2011?
-Why it seems that asking MF manufacturers to be creative, stop their absurd pixel race, go motion and enhance low-light capabilities is like asking them a huge unrealistic favor, but yes, ferraris and lamborghinis editions, that also seems very easy for them to (re)produce while the world of mini-camera and phone is moving the tech ahead. So yes, in that context, the movement of Canon is brave but if you think about it, simply rational. Do I aplaude the new Canon specs? To me it's a huge disapointment, it's more of the same we already have.


-why...etc...

Because the reality, is instead of having simplified and unified stuff, it's always more and more and more things to add.

I think this industry, Canon included, deserves a real kick in the ass by a new player. And hope it will be some brand like Red One.



Below: how many years separate those 4 cameras?  Last minute adaptations sold at 8000 bucks. I wonder for how long we are still going to see that.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 02:41:26 pm by fredjeang »
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #152 on: October 19, 2011, 12:27:09 pm »

No objection on anything of the above either BC! I still don't see why you find them "brave", it was their salesman that were trying to feed people with this "mpx count" ideas wasn't it? On the other hand the Nikon salesmen where trying to defend themselves bravely and sale 12mpx cameras for better, I mean you are not brave to change policy because you was wrong, its your opponent that you admit to be right all this time! You rather make a confession/apology than prove brave, don't you? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #153 on: October 19, 2011, 12:54:11 pm »

I don't get it.

We are in digital age now for quite a long time. Motion is a reality now for enough time for camera manufacturers to take that seriously.  We are in a ww economical and cyclic crisis for also quite a long time. And what do we see? more of the same.

-Why should we still have to put-up with designs that where made basically a century ago? when electronics gives almnost any kind of possibilities for designers to be creative to a point that wasn't thinkable before.
-why should we still have to stand things like matte-boxes and all the zacuto's artillery in 2011 that make looks the camera like a huge and hugly mecano?
-why this plague of micro fragile conectors in still camera devices?
-Why it still seems so painfull to have a device that works both for still and motion imagery so the investment is still doubled.
-Why we are still talking after all those years of softwares developpement about having to get a pentagon suite to color grade, and that the only exciting and "revolutiuonary" thing that appeared in the last decades was something called final cut pro x that is not ready yet and full of bugs.
-why can't we zoom and focus a motion lens with our cell-phones? do timelapse with our cell-phones but yes, having some fancy gadgeteries like the electronic clap on the I.phone and those, for sure, come at the speed of light, like any useless thing.
-why can't we shoot 24 fps image sequence and are still stucked into ridiculous buffer stuff, mess of exotic codecs, still softwares that are just doing still, new format or codec like this Canon will have that nothing will read, as always, so we'll need to chase more third-party stuff, more devices, more micro program.
-why do we still have to transcode in 2011?
-Why it seems that asking MF manufacturers to be creative, stop the pixel race, go motion and enhance low-light capabilities is like asking them a huge unrealistic favor, but yes, ferraris and lamborghinis versions, that also seems very easy for them to get into it.

-why...etc...

Because the reality, is instead of having simplified and unified stuff, it's always more and more and more thing to add.

I think this industry, Canon included, deserves a real kick in the ass by a new player. And hope it will be Red One.



  
I believe that you refer to 1DX video capabilities that seem not to be better than 7d/5d is it? If that is your point, I think that the answer is "because Canon will be alone in FF video". I also believe that they included it with the 1DX for marketing reasons (I suspect that Nikon will do the same in their FF), just to keep the 5d2 "video myth", that kept 5d2 sales high. They know FF video will never survive! Video belongs to the APS-c cameras that have the same DOF as 35mm cinema and that special "cinema appeal" to it. FF video has extremely shallow DOF and its use is very limited, even this limited use can be done better with aps-c by opening aperture up! I think if you are looking for the new "video-king" you should look towards Sony (call me a77) ;) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #154 on: October 19, 2011, 01:04:56 pm »

No,Theodoros, that wasn't the point of my post. But,

There is no doubt for me that Sony will be a major player, they understand what's going on better IMO. will see more and more Sony cameras on pro sets and less Canons. Probably even some micro 4/3 Panas also.
It's only speculation, but it would not surprise me.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 01:06:27 pm by fredjeang »
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #155 on: October 19, 2011, 01:34:23 pm »

No,Theodoros, that wasn't the point of my post. But,

There is no doubt for me that Sony will be a major player, they understand what's going on better IMO. will see more and more Sony cameras on pro sets and less Canons. Probably even some micro 4/3 Panas also.
It's only speculation, but it would not surprise me.
Add Nikon there too, I mean this Sony/Nikon "love affair" of the recent years surely is for mutual interest! After all it was Nikon (with a Sony sensor) that made the first APS-c Dslr with video. By the way, do you remember the project that was suggested as "Nikon D800" by Tecnofotografia? (www.tecnofotografia.com) that camera was/is an Aps-c camera..., it can be seen in the last picture they published where one can see the mount without the lens (which was the 17-55). The project can be reviewed under "camara concepto" ("leer mas" button at the end will open all the pictures) in their site. I wonder who payed for that very expensive industrial project? ;) I just wonder... :) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.com
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 01:41:49 pm by fotometria gr »
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #156 on: October 19, 2011, 04:35:51 pm »

Canon and Nikon are loosing clients currently, and not a little according to the numbers I've seen just for Japan.

They have become conservative. Nikon produces the first video in a dslr and then is unable to measure the consequences. Canon revolutionned the world with the 5D2 almost without purpose and then is unable to push the concept further and insist in the same design.
But at the moment, competition is actually working on convergence, slowly for sure, but better.

Sony offers also sensors to Pentax, the same as the Nikons. But Sony has no clients in the pro zone and therefore has nothing to loose and all to win.

It seems to me that the only ones who are not sleeping are Sony, Panasonic and Red one at the moment. I think that the real revolution may come from motion devices actually. Instead of doing motion with still cameras, we'll do stills with motion cameras.

When I saw the 1D X vendors in Monaco talking about how great its going to be in a GranPrix I can't help thinking of the Leica S fake fashion shooting video. It smells that they need to sweep the dust in serious.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:51:36 pm by fredjeang »
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2011, 08:30:56 am »

Canon and Nikon are loosing clients currently, and not a little according to the numbers I've seen just for Japan.
It seems to me that the only ones who are not sleeping are Sony, Panasonic and Red one at the moment. I think that the real revolution may come from motion devices actually. Instead of doing motion with still cameras, we'll do stills with motion cameras.
I agree on most of the above, where my opinion differentiates is that "instead of doing motion with Dslrs, we'll do stills with motion cams". I think it will vastly apply on the majority of the APS-c Dslrs and to an insignificant extend to FF Dslrs, due to the shallow DOF of the later..., I also think that there will be a minority of APS-c Dslrs designed with the stills as priority, these will be some cameras that the traditional Dslr manufacturers will use as a "first step" for the photographers that will eventually end up with FF cameras. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2011, 12:34:53 pm »

My take as an amateur:  

Regarding ergonomics, Digital dSLRs are not really fun to use. They are big heavy beasts. It's even worse for medium format. That is why Leica is minting money  On the other hand the top pro dSLRs are now totally reliable and acceptably usable under any circumstances and surpass 35mm film by a lot in practice.

Regarding image quality: What comes out of Lightroom and ACR is really ugly, most of what Canon and Nikon spit out as JPGs is not so nice. You can fight it, but it requires a LOT of effort. The MF vendors provide ntegrated suites -Capture One and Phocus- which provide good converted files.

I don't like the pictures I take with my Nikon much anymore, I prefer those that come out of my iPhone. I'm not joking. On the other hand I've almost never seen the Nikon miss a shot.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 01:43:40 pm by eronald »
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KevinA

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2011, 01:51:49 pm »

One day Kevin...one day.... ;)

Yaya,
Then I get a job like the one this coming Monday, a night flight over London. So if I had my Phaseone I would still be reaching for the 35 mm gear for it's high iso. .... And last  Friday I was shooting with everything from 17mm to 350mm so again I would of been using the 35mm. I don't need half the stuff they put on DSLR's, in fact it gets in the way. The problem with MF for me is that it would only cover a portion of what I do and justifying the cost against that portion still does not make business sense...... but I would love to be using it. :-)
A M9 with a D3s sensor low light capability and that f0.95  would do a treat for me on Monday. As it is a Canon and borrowed Nikon with a bunch of gyro's will be the order of the day er I mean night.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
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