Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on October 06, 2011, 07:24:34 am

Title: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 06, 2011, 07:24:34 am
I've been told Hasselblad is heavily building up staffing in its R&D department and intending to announce in 2012. The new stuff is said to be cheaper.

Nikon is rumored to be announcing a 36MP $3K prosumer model in a few weeks, and a D4 or similar 18MP Pro sports camera later this year, in time for next year's London olympics.

Canon seem to be gearing up for a 1Ds4 launch pronto, and are said to be showing around a 5DMarkIII.

Sony have a firm grip on the high end mirrorless market segment, and will doubtless bring out some new fullframe 36MP bodies, one of which may be mirrorless.

Leica is laying the rangefinder to rest, but seems intent on keeping manual focus abilities on the next M-compatible body. How they will do this reminds to be ... seen.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: design_freak on October 06, 2011, 07:54:59 am
Edmund,
Very interesting times were followed :)
We look forward  8)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: bcooter on October 06, 2011, 02:57:38 pm
I've been told ..........................


Image creation has always been art accomplished by science.

The initial creative thought is easy, compared to executing and delivering on budget, on deadline "while" not losing the original creative goal.

In other words, cameras, clients, committees, money, should not get in the way of delivering the original creative plan.

I'm looking forward to what equipment is coming our way, but I hope the next round of cameras comes with a different mindset that previous generations.

On the most part, previous cameras gave me what I needed last week, sometimes what I need today, but the camera system I want to buy is what I need tomorrow.

Cheaper is good . . . I guess . . . though more usability is better, or better put camera that let's me do something that no other camera system does now is the most intriguing.




IMO

BC
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: wolfnowl on October 06, 2011, 02:59:40 pm
Being the next 'crop' of cameras, should we assume smaller sensors? I hope Russ doesn't hear about anyone cropping cameras...

Sorry, couldn't resist...   :D

Mike.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 06, 2011, 04:17:14 pm
I've been told Hasselblad is heavily building up staffing in its R&D department and intending to announce in 2012. The new stuff is said to be cheaper.

Nikon is rumored to be announcing a 36MP $3K prosumer model in a few weeks, and a D4 or similar 18MP Pro sports camera later this year, in time for next year's London olympics.

Canon seem to be gearing up for a 1Ds4 launch pronto, and are said to be showing around a 5DMarkIII.

Sony have a firm grip on the high end mirrorless market segment, and will doubtless bring out some new fullframe 36MP bodies, one of which may be mirrorless.

Leica is laying the rangefinder to rest, but seems intent on keeping manual focus abilities on the next M-compatible body. How they will do this reminds to be ... seen.

Edmund
But its only rumors isn't it? I mean do you really believe that Nikon will use a simply multiplied area sensor (I mean the 16.2 one of the D7K) and ...produce a FF 36mpx camera which will perform worst than the D7K? I don't have them for being naive! Rumors are rumors..... Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: design_freak on October 06, 2011, 06:29:15 pm
I've been told Hasselblad is heavily building up staffing in its R&D department and intending to announce in 2012. The new stuff is said to be cheaper.


Edmund

Even the best R & D department, someone has to manage. Determine the direction of development. You know who would it be? I have no idea. I say this with all due respect to people and their past achievements. There is a need someone with vision. Then it can go.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: stevesanacore on October 06, 2011, 07:23:50 pm
Sounds exciting, Nikon/Sony 36MP rumor has been going around for a few months now. No info on Canon but it's logical to assume if they double the 18MP APS sensor into full frame, then they too will have a 36MP offering. Only issue is what lenses will they have that can resolve the detail at that level? I imagine it will also force Phase and Hasse to drop prices on the 40MP cameras quite a bit in order to compete. Sounds like a win win for us.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Erick Boileau on October 07, 2011, 01:12:42 am
I imagine it will also force Phase and Hasse to drop prices on the 40MP cameras quite a bit in order to compete. Sounds like a win win for us.
or I am afraid we will not find anymore MF with 40 mp, that's bad
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: yaya on October 07, 2011, 01:51:19 am
Shall we start betting on the next Canon/ Nikon flagships?

$0.50 says ~36MP, faster processors, high-speed video, better sound, built-in GPS

No mirrorless bodies and no EVF. Canon brings some new lenses based on same tech as the 8-15mm fisheye zoom, which is exciting

Yair
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2011, 02:46:37 am
It sounds pretty certain that the next DSLRs will be around 36mp, if not Nikon then Sony and Canon.

I also don't see why this is a concern.

The D7000 already has a DR that is only exceeded clearly by that of the IQ160/IQ180 and uses a cheap sensor that is a year old.

I don't see how they could not go beyond D3x DR with a 36 megapixel sensor. They will probably be able to improve color response at the same time. :-)

Now, we will only know for sure in a few weeks. I will probably keep my d3x though.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 07, 2011, 03:42:46 am
It sounds pretty certain that the next DSLRs will be around 36mp, if not Nikon then Sony and Canon.

I also don't see why this is a concern.

The D7000 already has a DR that is only exceeded clearly by that of the IQ160/IQ180 and uses a cheap sensor that is a year old.

I don't see how they could not go beyond D3x DR with a 36 megapixel sensor. They will probably be able to improve color response at the same time. :-)

Now, we will only know for sure in a few weeks. I will probably keep my d3x though.

Cheers,
Bernard

If you refer to DR as it is measured from DXO, my experience is totally different. I do own D7K and its highlight is clearly worst from D700 and more so than Fuji S5pro, actually the Fuji is in a class of its own in that matter among DSLRs and is the only one that can compare with my Imacon 528c MFDB. This doesn't mean that DXO measurments are wrong, its only an observation that DR is a subjective aspect that depends on the individual's appreciation on low light noise (what may be accepted by some..., may not be accepted by others). IMO highlight DR latitude is much more important than DR as total measured in stops. Unfortunately, all digital is at least a stop behind good quality negative film in that aspect but its improving as tech advances. If they where to upsize an APS-c sensor to FF, it would be a disaster for the extra area of the frame, where projected light will have to enter the cells in a much increased angle, thus the whole image would be worst than its APS-c counterpart. This is not the case with MF because there the sensor is moved further away the more it is increased in size, but in DSLRs the sensor is at the same distance from the mount either if its FF or APS-c. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 07, 2011, 04:37:22 am
It sounds pretty certain that the next DSLRs will be around 36mp, if not Nikon then Sony and Canon.

I also don't see why this is a concern.

The D7000 already has a DR that is only exceeded clearly by that of the IQ160/IQ180 and uses a cheap sensor that is a year old.

I don't see how they could not go beyond D3x DR with a 36 megapixel sensor. They will probably be able to improve color response at the same time. :-)

Now, we will only know for sure in a few weeks. I will probably keep my d3x though.

Cheers,

Bernard


I would like to downgrade to a D3s from the X, so I will be looking for the new pro model.
Slowly, I've come to realize that in real life I need to shoot at 1600 ISO at least 6 months of the year, and I'd prefer to be at 3200.
Global warming has definitely erased a lot of winter light in the city of lights.
Also, the huge enlargements I used to make never found a home while I sold and gave away a lot of A3 prints
Wonderful thing about the D3x is the super accurate focus and its ability to let me crop the shots but I think a lower-rez model would still be more useful if it is faster.
Also, my impression on the D3s is the color is better, the D3x had resolution and good speed but mediocre color.
I'll look at new pro model, and maybe get a used D3s. I don't think I really want more pixels - probably getting old and doddery in my outlook.

Edmund

PS. At the Paris photo show most of the amateur attendants yesterday were  male in their 50s with a lot of 60s and no 20s
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: DaveCurtis on October 07, 2011, 04:54:34 am
Edmund,

The "20s" are probably out shooting with there iPhone. Dont need no DSLR :)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: DaveCurtis on October 07, 2011, 05:01:13 am
Im still reasonably happy with my 1DS3. It's getting on in years though.

It will be interesting to see what Canon has to offer and whether they can catch up to Nikon. And also whether it will be worth going to a 1DS4 or will the 5D3 be good enough. Only time will tell.

Nothing like a new toy to play with.

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: yaya on October 07, 2011, 07:44:02 am
PS. At the Paris photo show most of the amateur attendants yesterday were  male in their 50s with a lot of 60s and no 20s

Quite a few 20's here today....maybe because it's Friday?

(some are even looking at MF...sheeesh...)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: EricWHiss on October 07, 2011, 01:14:31 pm
The prospect of new DSLR cameras with higher pixel counts and probably better DR and better video is exciting - the one thing I'm not excited about is the 3::2 format. 
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2011, 11:44:35 pm
If you refer to DR as it is measured from DXO, my experience is totally different. I do own D7K and its highlight is clearly worst from D700 and more so than Fuji S5pro, actually the Fuji is in a class of its own in that matter among DSLRs and is the only one that can compare with my Imacon 528c MFDB. This doesn't mean that DXO measurments are wrong, its only an observation that DR is a subjective aspect that depends on the individual's appreciation on low light noise (what may be accepted by some..., may not be accepted by others). IMO highlight DR latitude is much more important than DR as total measured in stops. Unfortunately, all digital is at least a stop behind good quality negative film in that aspect but its improving as tech advances. If they where to upsize an APS-c sensor to FF, it would be a disaster for the extra area of the frame, where projected light will have to enter the cells in a much increased angle, thus the whole image would be worst than its APS-c counterpart. This is not the case with MF because there the sensor is moved further away the more it is increased in size, but in DSLRs the sensor is at the same distance from the mount either if its FF or APS-c. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Hum... highlight DR latitude does not exist with any of the digital sensors on the market today since they are all linear devices. True highlight recovery is not more or less there... it is zero, nitch for everybody. Whether you use an IQ180 or a Canon S95, it is the very same zero.

What differs is the calibration of the metering and gap between true ISO and calibrated one.

Check the true ISO measurement on DxOMark and you will see that phase backs have one stop more of highlight recovery simply because they "cheat" one stop on the ISO value. So in essence the back helps you to under-expose all your shots one stop which gives you the illusion that you can recover that one stop of highlight.

So we are back to square one, DR with digital linear sensors is 100% only about shadow noise, nothing else. The Fuji S5Pro is the same, it does its trick by having in fact 2 sensors into one with different real ISOs. The user ISO value is that of the large sensels, and recovery is only possible by using the information provided by the lower ISO smaller sensels. In essence you are under-exposing as well.

The backs and S5 Pro are therefore more forgiving, but high end DSLRs do actually provide a more useful histogram for those trying to really get the best out of their files.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 04:41:46 am
Hum... highlight DR latitude does not exist with any of the digital sensors on the market today since they are all linear devices. True highlight recovery is not more or less there... it is zero, nitch for everybody. Whether you use an IQ180 or a Canon S95, it is the very same zero.

What differs is the calibration of the metering and gap between true ISO and calibrated one.

Check the true ISO measurement on DxOMark and you will see that phase backs have one stop more of highlight recovery simply because they "cheat" one stop on the ISO value. So in essence the back helps you to under-expose all your shots one stop which gives you the illusion that you can recover that one stop of highlight.

So we are back to square one, DR with digital linear sensors is 100% only about shadow noise, nothing else. The Fuji S5Pro is the same, it does its trick by having in fact 2 sensors into one with different real ISOs. The user ISO value is that of the large sensels, and recovery is only possible by using the information provided by the lower ISO smaller sensels. In essence you are under-exposing as well.

The backs and S5 Pro are therefore more forgiving, but high end DSLRs do actually provide a more useful histogram for those trying to really get the best out of their files.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Bernard, the sensor may be a linear device, but is one that is acting linearly to produce a non linear result like the S-slope, the method is irrelevant and what you state up there may be true but is not the whole truth. There is a linear part left in the sensor that covers the mid tones, the aim of the manufacturers is to have the sensor acting like film did, I don't know exactly how they (try to) do it, but it looks to me that the pixels don't all have the same ISO but the sensitivity differs on pixels across the sensor and is distributed by the logic cirquit in a manner to cope with highlights and lowlights. I came to that conclusion because noise becomes evident in the deep shadows even with a D700 at 200 iso, which it shouldn't if ISO was only as different as DXO claims. It must be part of the reason why NR is not turned off to any DSLR even if its instructed from menu to do so (not even in Raw). S5pro is different story because the info that is recorded by its small pixels is only used to instruct the big pixels, the info then is thrown away and its replaced by the resulting average (that i don't suspect, I know...) of the four large pixels that are around it by interpolating it (25% of each), this means that the result is one of true 12mpx since the info recorded by the small pixels is equal in size but different than the rest of the large pixels, it also explains why the camera is slow to record the info and why its raws are so huge. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 08, 2011, 05:39:42 am
Unfortunately, all digital is at least a stop behind good quality negative film in that aspect but its improving as tech advances.

So if you set an extra -1 or -1.5 stop exposure compensation (underexpose) on all your shots with a good digital sensor, would they not match negative film for highlight range? The only question then is whether they at least match the film S/N in the mid-tones and shadows. I suspect they would, even with the underexposure handicap.

As Bernard says, this is basically what many of the digital backs are set up to do.

Being in a position to underexpose also helps with things like camera shake (use a faster shutter speed) or increasing DOF (use a smaller aperture).

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 08, 2011, 05:59:21 am
Cheaper is good . . . I guess . . . though more usability is better, or better put camera that let's me do something that no other camera system does now is the most intriguing.

BC, I always like the way your posts are rooted in real-world usage.

Have you identified a camera/system-imposed limitation in your photography - is there something that you wish you could do, but until that "camera that let's me do something that no other camera system does now" materialises, you are unable to do it?

I think that's an interesting question to put to the whole forum.

My answer would be: Yes. Due to current MFD limitations, I am unable to shoot MF-sized long exposure images with the low readout noise, low dark noise, and untinkered RAW file output (no bias subtraction, and the option to turn off dark subtraction) of my Canon 5DII.

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 07:44:11 am
So if you set an extra -1 or -1.5 stop exposure compensation (underexpose) on all your shots with a good digital sensor, would they not match negative film for highlight range? The only question then is whether they at least match the film S/N in the mid-tones and shadows. I suspect they would, even with the underexposure handicap.

As Bernard says, this is basically what many of the digital backs are set up to do.

Being in a position to underexpose also helps with things like camera shake (use a faster shutter speed) or increasing DOF (use a smaller aperture).

Ray

No its not, because the s-slope of film has less linear part than digital and hence highlight compression doesn't start at the same point but earlier. It will reduce highlights by a fraction of a stop the magnitude of which (how much of a fraction), depends on the projection "equivalent to linear" depending on which part of the S-slope you are, it will reduce "mids" by 1 stop which is on the linear part of the S-slope and it will "kill" "lows" to more than a stop because of the same reason as "highs". Please note that I would prefer to avoid a conversation with you, for reasons you already know. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr 
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 08, 2011, 09:04:42 am
No its not, because the s-slope of film has less linear part than digital and hence highlight compression doesn't start at the same point but earlier. It will reduce highlights by a fraction of a stop the magnitude of which (how much of a fraction), depends on the projection "equivalent to linear" depending on which part of the S-slope you are, it will reduce "mids" by 1 stop which is on the linear part of the S-slope and it will "kill" "lows" to more than a stop because of the same reason as "highs". 

But one can apply an S-curve of any desired shape in software afterwards - in fact that's what RAW converters do, to varying degrees.

One can even straighten out the S-curve response of film and make it linear, if desired - that's how astronomers made linear calibrated photometric flux measurements from photographic plates, for nearly a century.

The point being, how the dynamic range is rendered can be freely adjusted. What matters is how much dynamic range is captured in the first place.

Please note that I would prefer to avoid a conversation with you, for reasons you already know. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

What, because of the CCD vs CMOS thread? Come on, get over it. I have.

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 08, 2011, 09:07:28 am
Film has much greater DR in the highlights, I guess, while with digital there is a hard highlight cut off when the sensor wells are full.

Edmund

But one can apply an S-curve of any desired shape in software afterwards - in fact that's what RAW converters do, to varying degrees.

One can even straighten out the S-curve response of film and make it linear, if desired - that's how astronomers made linear calibrated photometric flux measurements from photographic plates, for nearly a century.

The point being, how the dynamic range is rendered can be freely adjusted. What matters is how much dynamic range is captured in the first place.

What, because of the CCD vs CMOS thread? Come on, get over it. I have.

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 08, 2011, 09:45:15 am
Hi,

Perhaps not a greater DR but a nicer rendition?

Best Regards
Erik
Film has much greater DR in the highlights, I guess, while with digital there is a hard highlight cut off when the sensor wells are full.

Edmund

 :) :)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 09:59:33 am
But one can apply an S-curve of any desired shape in software afterwards - in fact that's what RAW converters do, to varying degrees.

One can even straighten out the S-curve response of film and make it linear, if desired - that's how astronomers made linear calibrated photometric flux measurements from photographic plates, for nearly a century.

The point being, how the dynamic range is rendered can be freely adjusted. What matters is how much dynamic range is captured in the first place.

What, because of the CCD vs CMOS thread? Come on, get over it. I have.

Ray
1. You can't create info that doesn't exist(!),  and you can't magnify existing info without distorting them. 2. They knew the project and did set up equipment for the process, NOT RELEVANT what so ever and I don't get over anything if you won't apologize for calling me an ignorant that confused long exposure with high ISO performance. OUT unless you do (apologize).  Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 08, 2011, 10:19:13 am
Hi,

Perhaps not a greater DR but a nicer rendition?

Best Regards
Erik

If it's a digital single image I guess DR is locked and rendition and maybe hilite recovery s the only thing one can wok on.

Certain sensors eg. 5D2 seem to have an electronic shutter and these might be run in a way to generate HDR shots. I'd expect this kind of distinguishing feature to be introduced soon, when adding megapixels stops being a key sales aid.

Edmund

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 10:20:44 am
Hi,

Perhaps not a greater DR but a nicer rendition?

Best Regards
Erik
Erik, "a great photographer is the one that can "see" the PHOTOGRAPH before he even captures it: C.Bresson" + "A photograph is only the printed thing on paper: Me and many others". Which means that a photograph originates in capturing and the process is already known to the photographer, anything else is playing with cameras and process but it has nothing to do with PHOTOGRAPHY, it may be "world advancement", "photography", "aesthetics", "graphics", "technique" or whatever ...you name it! But it certainly has nothing to do with PHOTOGRAPHY no matter of how many support one or the other "opinion". Art was never "democratical"  from majority POV and it will never be, history and survival through time is the only judgment for it! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 08, 2011, 10:26:00 am
Sorry,

I don't understand what you mean. We were discussing DR, were we not?! Negative film has a shoulder, so it's response is not linear with increasing exposure. So it may render specular highlights more pleasantly.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, "a great photographer is the one that can "see" the PHOTOGRAPH before he even captures it: C.Bresson" + "A photograph is only the printed thing on paper: Me and many others". Which means that a photograph originates in capturing and the process is already known to the photographer, anything else is playing with cameras and process but it has nothing to do with PHOTOGRAPHY, it may be "world advancement", "photography", "aesthetics", "graphics", "technique" or whatever ...you name it! But it certainly has nothing to do with PHOTOGRAPHY no matter of how many support one or the other "opinion". Art was never "democratical"  from majority POV and it will never be, history and survival through time is the only judgment for it! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 08, 2011, 11:08:53 am
1. You can't create info that doesn't exist(!), 

Exactly - which is why I said "What matters is how much dynamic range is captured in the first place."

and you can't magnify existing info without distorting them.

Applying an S-curve to linear digital data has the opposite effect; it compresses the DR at either end, so more input levels are squeezed (demagnified, if you will) into fewer output levels. 

Do the reverse process, to linearize scanned film, and yeah, the stretching out of those levels gives you pretty nasty S/N. I obviously don't recommend this; I only remark that such manipulations can be done.

2. They knew the project and did set up equipment for the process, NOT RELEVANT what so ever

It is relevant because it illustrates that the effect of the curve shape can be changed at will - even with film. If I hadn't given that concrete example, someone would probably have (rightly) challenged me to back up my statement with evidence.

and I don't get over anything if you won't apologize for calling me an ignorant that confused long exposure with high ISO performance. OUT unless you do (apologize).  Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

OK, at last you are finally telling me why you got so mad. I apologize for saying that you confused long exposure with high ISO performance. It was an honest mis-interpretation of your post, and there was no ill intent.

But I challenge you to show me any place in the thread where I called you "an ignorant". I certainly did not.

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 12:07:28 pm
Exactly - which is why I said "What matters is how much dynamic range is captured in the first place."

Applying an S-curve to linear digital data has the opposite effect; it compresses the DR at either end, so more input levels are squeezed (demagnified, if you will) into fewer output levels. 

Do the reverse process, to linearize scanned film, and yeah, the stretching out of those levels gives you pretty nasty S/N. I obviously don't recommend this; I only remark that such manipulations can be done.

It is relevant because it illustrates that the effect of the curve shape can be changed at will - even with film. If I hadn't given that concrete example, someone would probably have (rightly) challenged me to back up my statement with evidence.

OK, at last you are finally telling me why you got so mad. I apologize for saying that you confused long exposure with high ISO performance. It was an honest mis-interpretation of your post, and there was no ill intent.

But I challenge you to show me any place in the thread where I called you "an ignorant". I certainly did not.

Ray

OK! Now we can be friends again! "Ignorant" is not a word you used it is an obvious result to characterize anyone that would confuse "long exposure" with high "iso performance" as you presented me.
1. The DR captured in digital is less in the highlights, not in magnitude, but the actual HLDR because it has less compression (ie film records more in less HL range), the rest which is retained (at the moment) with analog, is lost ...so its nothing left in digital to recover (yet), in the "lowlights", digital may be considered comparable or better (depending of how much noise is acceptable from the photographer) but because the total DR range is more (or less, or equivalent, depending on the noise criterion) it doesn't mean that you can move it by simply underexposing because the S-slope curves don't much and since S-slope is not linear, underexposing will create the problems earlier quoted and unnatural image. Even more, depending on the highlights needed to be recovered, some (much?) of it will still be left left out. I don't deny that are people that consider lowlights as important as highlights, but I don't (!) and most of the great photographers of the previous century didn't, if I was to judge importance, I would say "1 stop of HL for 2 stops of LL" but thats me. So DR measurement as total and up to an individuals standard for low light noise acceptance is for me irrelevant. The scientific experiment you quoted, I still think is irrelevant, they take pictures for a purpose, they don't do photography! This is very different, they want to research a certain fact that happens in a certain part of the light "phasma" so they set up equipment for that, it has nothing to do with correct exposure, its "their" correct exposure. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. Please excuse my poor English, I can do better, but I haven't practice it for a long time.
 
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 08, 2011, 12:40:25 pm
Erik, "a great photographer is the one that can "see" the PHOTOGRAPH before he even captures it: C.Bresson" + "A photograph is only the printed thing on paper: Me and many others". Which means that a photograph originates in capturing and the process is already known to the photographer, anything else is playing with cameras and process but it has nothing to do with PHOTOGRAPHY, it may be "world advancement", "photography", "aesthetics", "graphics", "technique" or whatever ...you name it! But it certainly has nothing to do with PHOTOGRAPHY no matter of how many support one or the other "opinion". Art was never "democratical"  from majority POV and it will never be, history and survival through time is the only judgment for it! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Hey Guys,

 Can we go back to technology? For me art lives shown, dies discussed.

Edmund
 
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 12:47:02 pm
Hey Guys,

 Can we go back to technology? For me art lives shown, dies discussed.

Edmund
 
Isn't this a photographers thread? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 01:15:06 pm
 ;D
Dear me, no. Whatever gave you that idea?
;D Sorry... wrong door! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 08, 2011, 01:42:40 pm
Hi Bernard, the sensor may be a linear device, but is one that is acting linearly to produce a non linear result like the S-slope,
Nonsense. The sensor in most camera produce a linear response to light (below the saturation point). If you think otherwise, you may have been fooled by the raw converters that you use?

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 01:50:46 pm
Nonsense. The sensor in most camera produce a linear response to light (below the saturation point). If you think otherwise, you may have been fooled by the raw converters that you use?

-h
"Nonsense" obviously refers to your ignorance. Change attitude or you won't be responded. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 08, 2011, 01:57:04 pm
"Nonsense" obviously refers to your ignorance.
The only reason that I am replying to your posts is so that no readers will mistake your post for facts. As such, there is no reason to reply unless you actually read up on what you are saying, and give the reader a single link supporting your fantastic claims.

So, do you have one link to others or your own research finding digital camera sensors in general to be non-linear and have an s-curve? I thought not...
http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html
"Digital sensors (both CCD and CMOS) are linear. That means the voltage generated in each pixel, and hence the pixel level emerging from the A-to-D converter (the device that converts the sensor output to discrete bits), is proportional to exposure-- to the light energy reaching the pixel. But neither human vision nor CRT monitors are linear. "

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/gamma-correction.htm
"Our eyes do not perceive light the way cameras do. With a digital camera, when twice the number of photons hit the sensor, it receives twice the signal (a "linear" relationship). Pretty logical, right? That's not how our eyes work."
Quote
Change attitude or you won't be responded. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Even better: you stop responding to these interesting threads. Please? Spend your time elsewhere, photographing, whatever...

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Fine_Art on October 08, 2011, 02:06:55 pm
"Nonsense" obviously refers to your ignorance. Change attitude or you won't be responded. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Are you for real? Within a few posts of being offended at what you interpreted as someone calling you ignorant, you are directly saying it to another member. Your ego is way bigger than your sense.

Back to topic.
Isnt DR limited by the lesser of photons in the exposure time or full well capacity? What are the manufacturers doing to increase full well capacity? Higher bit AD converters are needed as well.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 02:09:34 pm
The only reason that I am replying to your posts is so that no readers will mistake your post for facts. As such, there is no reason to reply unless you actually read up on what you are saying, and give the reader a single link supporting your fantastic claims.

So, do you have one link to someone with some credits that found digital camera sensors in general to be non-linear and have an s-curve? I thought not...

-h
You still didn't apologize for use of "nonsense" AND you started twisting my saying, just reed a few quotes back there is nowhere a non-linear sensor sentence from me its the opposite(!), its your intentional, provocative and stupid invention. Its all in your mind... (or isn't it?). Please apologize for saying "nonsense".....? I'm sure you worth better as a human being and there are thousands of people watching this. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 08, 2011, 02:14:55 pm
You still didn't apologize for use of "nonsense" AND you started twisting my saying, just reed a few quotes back there is nowhere a non-linear sensor sentence from me its the opposite(!), its your intentional, provocative and stupid invention. Its all in your mind... (or isn't it?). Please apologize for saying "nonsense".....? I'm sure you worth better as a human being and there are thousands of people watching this. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
The original quoted sentence is nonsense in my view. If you can support it with research, I will be the first to retract my statement.

So can you please supply us with references to research supporting your claims, or stop making them?

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: design_freak on October 08, 2011, 02:18:15 pm
With almost 100% accuracy can be predicted that Hasselblad will show us a cheap product. For more recipients, who really want to have equipment with this logo, and now they can not afford it. I say that it will not necessarily be medium format.

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 02:22:56 pm
Are you for real? Within a few posts of being offended at what you interpreted as someone calling you ignorant, you are directly saying it to another member. Your ego is way bigger than your sense.

Back to topic.
Isnt DR limited by the lesser of photons in the exposure time or full well capacity? What are the manufacturers doing to increase full well capacity? Higher bit AD converters are needed as well.
??? What? do you think that anybody can have a conversation by starting with a straight attack? I never refered to anybody by twisting his saying or by calling nonsense his saying. My answer to all three of your questions is 1. Yes, 2. Shallower wells?  ;D and 3. Yes! Have you notice me saying anything different? Why don't you just.....  go for vacation, you seem to need some ::)  :-* Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 02:34:46 pm
The original quoted sentence is nonsense in my view. If you can support it with research, I will be the first to retract my statement.

So can you please supply us with references to research supporting your claims, or stop making them?

-h
Which is what according to your nonsense? Look buddy..., can you please make sense and refer to something? ...after apologizing of course! But there is nothing to refer to is there? Just an intentional attack...., I wonder what the motive was! I hope you'll overcome it! Be well, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 08, 2011, 02:42:03 pm
Which is what according to your nonsense? Look buddy..., can you please make sense and refer to something? ...after apologizing of course! But there is nothing to refer to is there? Just an intentional attack...., I wonder what the motive was! I hope you'll overcome it! Be well, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Please see this link from the previous page:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=58363.msg471852#msg471852

There no need for me to be apologizing, and I hope that you are able to continue this discussion to be one about photographic equipment, and not about personal stuff.

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 08, 2011, 02:45:28 pm
 ???
Please see this link from the previo us page:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=58363.msg471852#msg471852

There no need for me to be apologizing, and I hope that you are able to continue this discussion to be one about photographic equipment, and not about personal stuff.

-h
???  ;)  :)  :D  ;D  ;D ;D  ;D
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: CptZar on October 08, 2011, 03:29:26 pm
There is a couple of threads being destroyed this way. I understand that everybody want's to make his point. But some peoples ego is much bigger than their work. I, and people worldwide come here to L I S T E N to some of the top guys in landscape photography. This gets quite difficult, if others consider this forum their private playground.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: design_freak on October 08, 2011, 03:38:02 pm
This thread is about hardware, or about art? Because I'm not confident about
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Schewe on October 08, 2011, 04:19:51 pm
??? ???  ;)  :)  :D  ;D  ;D ;D  ;D

There ya go again bud...

Really, you need to cut out the emoticons. It just makes you look like an 8 year old brat.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: michael on October 08, 2011, 04:47:07 pm
Everyone take a deep breath, go to your respective corners and take 5.

Now, no more name calling or offensive talk.

Michael
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Schewe on October 08, 2011, 05:07:57 pm
Now, no more name calling or offensive talk.

...and no more emoticons!
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: MrSmith on October 08, 2011, 06:34:42 pm
With almost 100% accuracy can be predicted that Hasselblad will show us a cheap product. For more recipients, who really want to have equipment with this logo, and now they can not afford it. I say that it will not necessarily be medium format.

i'm usually not one for rumours, im only interested in what's announced and what's for sale now.
But this got me thinking, maybe something from Fuji with a H/blad badge slapped on it?

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: stevesanacore on October 08, 2011, 07:01:01 pm
i'm usually not one for rumours, im only interested in what's announced and what's for sale now.
But this got me thinking, maybe something from Fuji with a H/blad badge slapped on it?



Well that would be consistent with many other cameras Hasselblad has sold in the past. Remember the X=Pan? And I believe all the current Hasse lenses are made by Fuji, correct?
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: MrSmith on October 08, 2011, 07:39:02 pm
Well that would be consistent with many other cameras Hasselblad has sold in the past. Remember the X=Pan? And I believe all the current Hasse lenses are made by Fuji, correct?

yes. and the rumours about a new fuji camera with a bigger sensor.
they have a medium format rangefinder history too.
more meaningless chat and theory.
i hate rumour threads! i'm not theorizing and more. ;D
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Ajoy Roy on October 09, 2011, 10:02:20 am
Back to topic.
...... What are the manufacturers doing to increase full well capacity? Higher bit AD converters are needed as well.
The only practical way I know of increasing full well capacity is to increase the sensel size. One way is to decrease the inter sensel gap so that at the same pitch you have more area to capture photons. The current sensors are doing just that. But this is offset by ever increasing quest for more MP, hence smaller sensel pitch.

Of course if you decrease the sensor temparature, you decrease the thermal noise; as in astronomical sensors; and get better S:N ratios which translate to better DR. Currently only peltier cooling will do the trick, but it consumes power, so may not be practical in a battery operated device. Some Astronomy sensors have taken this path.

Higher bit A/D converters will give more gradation to the image, not more DR. They are slow and power hungry. We have to wait for advances in hardware to give us fast 16bit to 24bit A/D converters.

Coming back to this thread. In my view the future is in :
. Larger chips, using advanced stitching technology. So chips of 6x6 or 6x17 may be expected in near future.
. Faster electronics at lower power consumption. Longer interval between battery change.
. Active cooling to decrease thermal noise, there by increasing DR. So that higher bit A/D are justified.
. Faster A/D initially, followed by higher bit length later on.

Who achieves how many of the above remains to be seen.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: John.Williams on October 09, 2011, 02:14:05 pm
Well that would be consistent with many other cameras Hasselblad has sold in the past. Remember the X=Pan? And I believe all the current Hasse lenses are made by Fuji, correct?

Steve, yes the Hasselblad HC lenses are (majority) assembled in Fuji lens operations in Japan - Fuji design engineers work with the Hasselblad optics team in Sweden to advise on manufacturing relative to new lens design - recently the improvements in the 50mm and 120macro, as well as the launch of the 28mm (widest in MF at the time) and the 35-90 Zoom (first application of the aspherical lens element in MF.)

The final lens assembly is completed in Sweden and includes the installation of the central lens shutter, final assembly testing, and Q/A before finding a home in the photographer's hands.

My personal experience has been excellent optical performance relative to the CF lenses, and this is usually the first question asked by photographers exploring the Hasselblad H-system and the resale value is maintained over the life of the lens.

Best,

John
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 09, 2011, 03:57:25 pm
Steve, yes the Hasselblad HC lenses are (majority) assembled in Fuji lens operations in Japan - Fuji design engineers work with the Hasselblad optics team in Sweden to advise on manufacturing relative to new lens design - recently the improvements in the 50mm and 120macro, as well as the launch of the 28mm (widest in MF at the time) and the 35-90 Zoom (first application of the aspherical lens element in MF.)

The final lens assembly is completed in Sweden and includes the installation of the central lens shutter, final assembly testing, and Q/A before finding a home in the photographer's hands.

My personal experience has been excellent optical performance relative to the CF lenses, and this is usually the first question asked by photographers exploring the Hasselblad H-system and the resale value is maintained over the life of the lens.

Best,

John
Hi John. Do you happen to know or heart any linking info about Hass preparing a FF innovative DSLR? Is there any chance that we see a Hass product with sensor made by Fuji? Do they consider a new product having a smaller area sensor than 33x44? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: jduncan on October 10, 2011, 06:47:39 am
Hi John. Do you happen to know or heart any linking info about Hass preparing a FF innovative DSLR? Is there any chance that we see a Hass product with sensor made by Fuji? Do they consider a new product having a smaller area sensor than 33x44? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr


It will be quite stunning if Hasselblad could do innovative work on a DSLR and at the same time keep with the features of the next generation from Nikon and Canon. The Nikon 1 is a proof of the tools and potential  that  Nikon has in hand for the next generation Nikons.

Let see what comes to us;

Best regards,

J. Duncan
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 10, 2011, 07:48:40 am
This thread is about hardware, or about art? Because I'm not confident about

I'm the OP. What i posted was about hardware rumors. Feel free to digress - as if I could stop you :)

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Hulyss on October 10, 2011, 10:40:40 am
I'm kind of sad actually with all this moving technology marketing.

I'm about to invest seriously in medium format world.

It look like brands wanna kill themselves all together ! This pixel race from Sonikon is insane marketing. Sooooo many amateur photographers, even pros ( ;D) don't understand what is the benefit of large Sensor or film. So, like sheep's, they will think : "wwowooowooowww !! awesome !!! My beloved brand released a great camera. 36 millions pixels... ooo Blimey ! No need to buy that expensive Hasselblad H4D-31 or this leaf back at ONLY 22 Million pixels or even this Leica S2 who have only ONE million pixel in + LoL..."

We are watching very sad days of photo marketing :(
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 10, 2011, 11:49:37 am
Hi,

So, Sony develops a better sensor. What is wrong with that?

Best regards
Erik


I'm kind of sad actually with all this moving technology marketing.

I'm about to invest seriously in medium format world.

It look like brands wanna kill themselves all together ! This pixel race from Sonikon is insane marketing. Sooooo many amateur photographers, even pros ( ;D) don't understand what is the benefit of large Sensor or film. So, like sheep's, they will think : "wwowooowooowww !! awesome !!! My beloved brand released a great camera. 36 millions pixels... ooo Blimey ! No need to buy that expensive Hasselblad H4D-31 or this leaf back at ONLY 22 Million pixels or even this Leica S2 who have only ONE million pixel in + LoL..."

We are watching very sad days of photo marketing :(
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: feppe on October 10, 2011, 12:08:09 pm
I'm kind of sad actually with all this moving technology marketing.

I'm about to invest seriously in medium format world.

It look like brands wanna kill themselves all together ! This pixel race from Sonikon is insane marketing. Sooooo many amateur photographers, even pros ( ;D) don't understand what is the benefit of large Sensor or film. So, like sheep's, they will think : "wwowooowooowww !! awesome !!! My beloved brand released a great camera. 36 millions pixels... ooo Blimey ! No need to buy that expensive Hasselblad H4D-31 or this leaf back at ONLY 22 Million pixels or even this Leica S2 who have only ONE million pixel in + LoL..."

We are watching very sad days of photo marketing :(

Pixel race from Sony and Nikon? How exactly different from Hasselblad and Phase going from 22 MP to how many gazillion they are at now?
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: baudolino on October 10, 2011, 12:39:40 pm
I like the notion that the next camera or product I seriously consider buying should offer me something that no other system has allowed me to do so far. In respect of MF digital, what no other system has allowed me to do (that I would like to do) is:

- consistently handhold at slower shutter speeds, without mirror slap
- compose for the square, without wasting sensor real estate & confusing my composing eye through viewfinder crop masks
- achieve consistent and quick focus, especially with portraits and moving subjects
- carry the camera and standard lens in a Billingham Hadley (small) bag

May I therefore ask the makers to consider introducing the digital equivalent of the Mamiya 6, with an uncropped 56x56 sensor (ok, I'd accept a 38x46 too, but no mask in the VF), quick AF with face / nearest eye detection (live view of course), and the lens collapsible into the body for transport? Or something like a beefed up Sony Nex 7, Fuji X100, with an MF sensor and a nice EVF...

In the times of film we had cameras like the Mamiya 6, Bronica RF, Fuji GZ645 etc. Why hasn't anybody come up with something similar in the digital age?
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: bcooter on October 10, 2011, 01:22:29 pm
Pixel race from Sony and Nikon? How exactly different from Hasselblad and Phase going from 22 MP to how many gazillion they are at now?


I think camera companies sell what they can make that is easier (not easy, easier) to assemble with what they have on hand or can buy off the shelf, hence we have things like more pixels and slowly improving lcds.

If the consumer electronic world, moved like the camera world then your Iphone, would be a motorola brick with a lcd.  Maybe 15% smaller and it might take a photo, but other than that it would be based on 15 year old tech.

(http://ishotit.com./brick_phone.jpg)

If you look at any current professional camera, they look and do about the same thing as the film cameras they replaced, except instead of film they have a scanner on the back or inside.  It's marvelous they have a scanner, but the rest of the camera and lens, looks and does about the same thing as we've had for about a zillion years and at this stage of digital cameras, they still won't do some things that film cameras did.

Shoot a subject with the sun behind them for that soft dreamy summer look on film, then do it on digital and you'll know what I mean.

Even RED which should be commended for building a camera company from scratch, still build essentially a digital arriflex, or panaflex, or Aaeton.   They make a good digital arriflex for a pretty good price, but overall it's still a manual focused camera, that does just about the same thing the film cameras did except instead of processing 4k film you get to process 4k to 5k digital.

Look at Canon and their 5d.  They never real built it to be a motion cinema camera for the masses, they built in video because they had live view and they wanted to one up sony which had about the same still camera at the same price point.

It was the masses and a bunch of 3rd party developers that made the 5d2 viable for motion and if you've priced out a complete 5d2 rig that can actually capture sound and mount of a tripod with a usable monitor and a box to read sound bars and collect sound.

In fact the stuff we mount on our 5d2 costs 3 times as much as the camera, which kind of makes you wonder why the camera company didn't make this stuff in the first place and collect the profits.

(http://ishotit.com./5d2_with_gizmos.jpg)

Anyway.

Somebody asks me what I would like to see in a camera or better put, what do cameras do today that don't let me do what I'd like to do tomorrow.

First make them lighter weight.   Something like the Sony FS100 at it's maximum.   This allows for lighter weight tripods, mounts, booms, supports and in a world where carbon fiber is everywhere, why are we still lifting up 4 to 20lb cameras.

The other day I drove by a location they were shooting the TV show "House".   The camera crane was the size of a Ford F150 pickup, twice the weight,  and looked like something that was made for the first world war.   

Second make them basic with expandable add ons.  In other words if you want a good but limited $5,000 camera, there it is.  If you want more, there is more stuff like focus tools, larger capture cards, faster readers, thunderbolt tethering, etc.

Third get rid of the layers and layers of menus.  If you've ever worked something like the Panasonic or the Sony fs100 in the heat of battle, you'll find things like changing the shutter speed and building a color look requires the hands of a heart surgeon and the patience of mortgage banker.

Fourth, make all LCD's high def, articulating and touch screen.  Hasn't anyone in the camera world ever held an I-phone?   Also make it easy to add another screen or two or three.   You can't have enough viewing options. 

Fifth, allow the camera to shoot a 5k still while it captures motion and make the sensor square with crops lines that light up depending on what format your shooting.

Sixth, make a touch screen follow focus system.  Not just touch on one spot and hold it but touch or outline a subject, then let the focus follow that subject.

If this isn't possible, then make an automatic secondary viewfinder, something that looks like a spot meter, and let the assistants, or focus puller focus on the subject while the photographer/camera operator concentrates on the subject and framing.

Seventh, high base iso with internal nd filters to lower the iso.  Why do we take a 100 iso camera and bump the curves to get to 1000, or go the other way.  Why not just start at 1000 and have a series of nd's to get us lower, or bump the curves or lut to get us higher?

Eighth.  Removable AA filters.    Kodak did it with their line of digital cameras and I had them and it worked well, it fact it worked amazingly well and since then everybody just forgot about it.  How about a series of none to strong and then let us decide which filter is best for the subject.

Ninth.   Keep it modular.  Really modular so when a new sensor design comes out or a new lcd screen don't make us toss out Ten or twenty grand worth of camera just allow us to insert a new imager or lcd or module or something. 

Red is dong something like this, or at least they were, though with RED information changes by the month, so whether anything that fits one a RED One will fit a scarlet, an Epic a scarlet 2 nobody knows, at least nobody but Peter Jackson and the companies owner.

Tenth and the most important . . . software.    Whoever writes imaging software must loathe photographers and image makers.   Why is it lightroom is 100% different interface than photoshop, C-1 different than lightroom and when you get into motion, Nuke, Color, Di-Vinci (there is a long list) works with nodes and every button is in a different place.  That would be fine except 95% of the buttons and commands do the same thing so why make them a 100% different function . . . and nodes, I want to meet the person that thought that up, because it's the craziest thing I've ever used.

I loathe learning new software and before somebody says you can't do motion with still software or your can't do stills with motion software that's bull.  CS5 Extended will do motion (though it's a pain), Nuke will do resolution free stills (though it's a pain to learn), so why it takes 4 software suites just to color imagery makes no sense to me.

That's the short list. 


IMO

BC





Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 10, 2011, 02:25:35 pm
Shall we start betting on the next Canon/ Nikon flagships?

$0.50 says ~36MP, faster processors, high-speed video, better sound, built-in GPS

No mirrorless bodies and no EVF. Canon brings some new lenses based on same tech as the 8-15mm fisheye zoom, which is exciting

Yair
Canon built in GPS, ha ha bloody ha.
Can we really be bothered with yet more pixels in the 35mm camera, a bit more colour and DR would be much more useful.
With each new Canik, MF looks to make more sense than before. In anything other than resolution my Canon can't get close to my 40 year old Rolleiflex. I hope I'm wrong but we just get more of the same with a promise that the new AF will work  better and more frames per second. I bet the big new feature will all be based around big numbers regarding video. 5k throw away cameras are losing their appeal to me these days.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Hulyss on October 10, 2011, 03:07:48 pm
And some people from Leica said "no more pixel in the future !" (about the S2) They said that what S2 deliver is enough for today and tomorrow photography. I assume that Leica staff is mature and lucide.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: design_freak on October 10, 2011, 03:39:45 pm
I'm kind of sad actually with all this moving technology marketing.

I'm about to invest seriously in medium format world.

It look like brands wanna kill themselves all together ! This pixel race from Sonikon is insane marketing. Sooooo many amateur photographers, even pros ( ;D) don't understand what is the benefit of large Sensor or film. So, like sheep's, they will think : "wwowooowooowww !! awesome !!! My beloved brand released a great camera. 36 millions pixels... ooo Blimey ! No need to buy that expensive Hasselblad H4D-31 or this leaf back at ONLY 22 Million pixels or even this Leica S2 who have only ONE million pixel in + LoL..."

We are watching very sad days of photo marketing :(


It is true Martketing is not the best today. Note the 7-9 second of this material. At the begining you don't not want to see this . As if there were no major events in history and the better photos. This is example of bad marketing. Who did it? Excellent story, terrible execution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MiA8EE4jwLk

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 10, 2011, 04:36:41 pm
I'm the OP. What i posted was about hardware rumors. Feel free to digress - as if I could stop you :)

Edmund
Edmund, Fuji is traditionally a manufacturer that has been involved in extreme camera engineering (gx617, gx680, LF lenses, MFDBs, ...etc) not to mention its hi end cinema involvement (important to remember because of stills/video convergence), recently they announced that they plan to gain the 3rd position as largest camera manufacturer in the following few years. After the S5pro they are without a single interchangeable lens camera! (I don't know if Hass H is still marketed as fujifilm in the Japanese market, ...somebody may enlighten us here), but since the economic and construction relationship with Hass is evident and Fuji has production capabilities of their own sensors, I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a lower market Hass/upper market Fuji new series of cameras that would relate to each other like Leica and Panasonic does, but to a higher level! Such a move, would be very beneficial for us photographers because it would increase competition with the Canikons and would speed tech advancement! Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 10, 2011, 05:03:17 pm
I'm kind of sad actually with all this moving technology marketing.

I'm about to invest seriously in medium format world.

It look like brands wanna kill themselves all together ! This pixel race from Sonikon is insane marketing. Sooooo many amateur photographers, even pros ( ;D) don't understand what is the benefit of large Sensor or film. So, like sheep's, they will think : "wwowooowooowww !! awesome !!! My beloved brand released a great camera. 36 millions pixels... ooo Blimey ! No need to buy that expensive Hasselblad H4D-31 or this leaf back at ONLY 22 Million pixels or even this Leica S2 who have only ONE million pixel in + LoL..."

We are watching very sad days of photo marketing :(
I believe that the megapixel race has moved to the lower market than DSLRs, where the market is less informed about the disadvantages of high pixel density. I am sure that rumors will stay rumors especially with the FF Dslr market that is much more mature now than it was 5 years ago! In fact I'm sure we will see huge innovations in this market that will differentiate it further from the DSLR/APS-c market (starting with the interchangeable sensor D3 replacement?). I don't think that some overpacked sensors (sony a77) that appeared on some APS-c cameras have anything to do with "marketing direction", I believe that these sensors where developed to help video performance of those cameras, since the APS-c market has a "video advantage" than other sensor sizes due to its direct relationship with 35mm cinema DOF. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 10, 2011, 05:04:44 pm
Hi,

My view is that SLR mirrors are "old think". The SLR mirror was intended to offer a capability similar to live view, and live view is actually quite useful for dead on exact focus using actual sensor pixels. So why use a complicated moving assembly with a secondary moving assembly for AF? Of course, all glass pentaprisms have better viewing than EVF, right now, but we are probably going to see a rapid development of electronic viewfinders within the next few years.

Also, with an EVF you can see the histogram before shooting the image and can have a lot of usable displays.

Best regards
Erik

Canon built in GPS, ha ha bloody ha.
Can we really be bothered with yet more pixels in the 35mm camera, a bit more colour and DR would be much more useful.
With each new Canik, MF looks to make more sense than before. In anything other than resolution my Canon can't get close to my 40 year old Rolleiflex. I hope I'm wrong but we just get more of the same with a promise that the new AF will work  better and more frames per second. I bet the big new feature will all be based around big numbers regarding video. 5k throw away cameras are losing their appeal to me these days.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 10, 2011, 05:15:08 pm
Hi,

My view is that SLR mirrors are "old think". The SLR mirror was intended to offer a capability similar to live view, and live view is actually quite useful for dead on exact focus using actual sensor pixels. So why use a complicated moving assembly with a secondary moving assembly for AF? Of course, all glass pentaprisms have better viewing than EVF, right now, but we are probably going to see a rapid development of electronic viewfinders within the next few years.

Also, with an EVF you can see the histogram before shooting the image and can have a lot of usable displays.

Best regards
Erik

Response time, DR, battery life is probably never going to be as good using EVF as optics. It could perhaps become "good enough" to make the transition worth it (due to the pros you mention).

I wonder what sensor trade-offs are necessary to allow for live-view and EVF? Building silicon that will be used for 1/1000 of a second, or 2 seconds, then going "to sleep" for a second or 1 hour may be a different challenge from building one with readouts 60 times per second?

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 10, 2011, 05:36:32 pm
Hi,

The new Sony cameras have very short shutter release lag, about 2 ms, due to non moving mirror and possibly electronic "first shutter courtain". The EVF will on the other hand alway have some lag, while photons in the SLR move with the speed of light.

All cameras today have live view and the option to record motion, so the sensors are capable of fast readouts.

Best regards
Erik

Response time, DR, battery life is probably never going to be as good using EVF as optics. It could perhaps become "good enough" to make the transition worth it (due to the pros you mention).

I wonder what sensor trade-offs are necessary to allow for live-view and EVF? Building silicon that will be used for 1/1000 of a second, or 2 seconds, then going "to sleep" for a second or 1 hour may be a different challenge from building one with readouts 60 times per second?

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 10, 2011, 05:55:52 pm
Hi,

My view is that SLR mirrors are "old think". The SLR mirror was intended to offer a capability similar to live view, and live view is actually quite useful for dead on exact focus using actual sensor pixels. So why use a complicated moving assembly with a secondary moving assembly for AF? Of course, all glass pentaprisms have better viewing than EVF, right now, but we are probably going to see a rapid development of electronic viewfinders within the next few years.

Also, with an EVF you can see the histogram before shooting the image and can have a lot of usable displays.

Best regards
Erik

Of course we will Erik, the APS-c market has all turned hybrid, people that buy a DSLR to use it primarily as a videocamera and occasionally as a stills camera, they don't need a pentaprism do they? Market needs can not be ignored, if market asks, manufacturers provide! OTOH my opinion is, that the rapid advancement of AVFs and the increased percentage of cameras that will have it, it won't mean that photographers ask for it...., it means that there are less photographers than we believe there are.  ;) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: deejjjaaaa on October 10, 2011, 07:02:23 pm
so the sensors are capable of fast readouts.

some do 30p, while some do 60p and some do 120p for focusing only... and 120p vs 30p for CDAF is a very big difference.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Ajoy Roy on October 11, 2011, 12:05:14 am
In the times of film we had cameras like the Mamiya 6, Bronica RF, Fuji GZ645 etc. Why hasn't anybody come up with something similar in the digital age?
In those days the sensor was free (film) to the manufacturer, hence they had to invest in hardware only. Today each camera has a sensor inbuilt, and that costs money, in fact 80% of the cost (if not more) of digital camera is the sensor!

Till the sensor; and not the DB; are interchangeable, we are stuck with what ever sells the most. Once we have, as one post said, interchangeable sensor modules, all sorts of cameras can be built and sold to satisfy the demand.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2011, 01:30:03 am
I am always pretty amazed that these discussions always end up focusing on the spec of cameras and not their measured performance.

Although people tried very very hard, nobody has been able to prove that the DxOMark results for performance measurement are actually not representative of the reality of the cameras performance. This most probably means that DxOMark data are in fact totally representative of the realities of camera performance.

A Sony NEX5 does have more DR than a Nikon J1. A Nikon D7000 does have the same DR as that of a Phaseone P45+. We cannot believe in DxOMark when it serves our own agenda and stop believing in them when they show something we dislike. :)

So what do we see when we try to compare specs vs camera performance for high end DSLRs vs backs?

- DSLR sensor performance is improving much faster than MF sensor performance and DR is the one area where their progress have been the most remarkable,
- The pace of increase of resolution of the DSLRs is similar to that of backs. Even if Nikon did come up in October with a 36 MP D800, this would only be a 1.5 times increase in pixel count over the D3x, that itself doubled the pixel count 4 years after the previous iteration (times 3 in 7 years). Phaseone is now at 80 MP compared to the 40MP of the P45+ released 4 years before it. Granted, they increased the sensor area at the same time,  but so did the DSLR sensor designers when thinking in terms of sensels.

The truth of the matter though is that a 36MP D800 without AA filter and with a DR similar to that of the D3x would basically deliver 4x5+ quality in a 1kg waterproof package with full sensor area very fast AF.

I personally don't see anything unreasonable about this approach to camera development. At least nothing more unreasonnable than releasing a 80mp back considering the actual needs of most photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2011, 03:08:45 am
In those days the sensor was free (film) to the manufacturer, hence they had to invest in hardware only. Today each camera has a sensor inbuilt, and that costs money, in fact 80% of the cost (if not more) of digital camera is the sensor!

This is absolutely not correct. APS sensors cost a few tens of US$, FX sensors cost a few hundreds and MF no more than a few thousands. At most.

The sensor does certainly not represent more than 20% of the cost of a camera and the larger the format the less it represents.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 11, 2011, 03:21:03 am
J,

 There is inspiration for a lot of products in your post.

 eg. for automatic focus pulling one could very well imagine having a laser pointer that is synced with the frame rate of the camera (on when the sensor is OFF), and held on the subject by the focus puller. This would be the photo equivalent of the laser target designator employed by special forces to designate targets for ordnance launched by support aircraft. This might maybe create some new specialist jobs such as the nipples puller in porn :)

 I could spec some new products for each of your points, but in the end what is right and wrong about your post is that there was and still is an Omerta that video products should be heavy, professional, expensive and require big man power to transport, set up, light and shoot. And there is still an Omerta that instead of getting what you need once and for all (1940's Leica or reporter's Rolleiflex), you should be convinced by gradual improvements and permanent frustration that you need to throw out most of your gear every two years.

Just look at the computers which get "faster" every year, even every 6 months, but still take 2/10 of a second to open a pull-down menu and a minute to launch Photoshop.

If the mobile phone were mainly made by Motorola, it might look like your picture, but I bet it would also have a talk time of one week, and you would actually be able to understand what the person on the other end is saying.

I have a couple of unmodded Zenith Transoceanic radios from the 60's sitting here, and they were not throwaway designs - I have them in daily use, and they basically do everything I can require from a radio. I had some Sony shortwave models and they were smaller, but had none of the same abilities or durability although they sure looked nice.

Edmund

PS. Sony had a memory-based walkman prototype they were showing around for years. Everyone in the industry saw it,  a box with no moving parts and a pair of earphones. They knew all there was to know about music marketing, they understood about files and computers and they just weren't going to rip themselves a new one by selling it until it became inevitable. In the end management couldn't bring the company to sell it even when it was inevitable, and Apple overtook them. The same thing may very well happen in video with Red and the existing video incumbents.





I think camera companies sell what they can make that is easier (not easy, easier) to assemble with what they have on hand or can buy off the shelf, hence we have things like more pixels and slowly improving lcds.

If the consumer electronic world, moved like the camera world then your Iphone, would be a motorola brick with a lcd.  Maybe 15% smaller and it might take a photo, but other than that it would be based on 15 year old tech.

(http://ishotit.com./brick_phone.jpg)

If you look at any current professional camera, they look and do about the same thing as the film cameras they replaced, except instead of film they have a scanner on the back or inside.  It's marvelous they have a scanner, but the rest of the camera and lens, looks and does about the same thing as we've had for about a zillion years and at this stage of digital cameras, they still won't do some things that film cameras did.

Shoot a subject with the sun behind them for that soft dreamy summer look on film, then do it on digital and you'll know what I mean.

Even RED which should be commended for building a camera company from scratch, still build essentially a digital arriflex, or panaflex, or Aaeton.   They make a good digital arriflex for a pretty good price, but overall it's still a manual focused camera, that does just about the same thing the film cameras did except instead of processing 4k film you get to process 4k to 5k digital.

Look at Canon and their 5d.  They never real built it to be a motion cinema camera for the masses, they built in video because they had live view and they wanted to one up sony which had about the same still camera at the same price point.

It was the masses and a bunch of 3rd party developers that made the 5d2 viable for motion and if you've priced out a complete 5d2 rig that can actually capture sound and mount of a tripod with a usable monitor and a box to read sound bars and collect sound.

In fact the stuff we mount on our 5d2 costs 3 times as much as the camera, which kind of makes you wonder why the camera company didn't make this stuff in the first place and collect the profits.

(http://ishotit.com./5d2_with_gizmos.jpg)

Anyway.

Somebody asks me what I would like to see in a camera or better put, what do cameras do today that don't let me do what I'd like to do tomorrow.

First make them lighter weight.   Something like the Sony FS100 at it's maximum.   This allows for lighter weight tripods, mounts, booms, supports and in a world where carbon fiber is everywhere, why are we still lifting up 4 to 20lb cameras.

The other day I drove by a location they were shooting the TV show "House".   The camera crane was the size of a Ford F150 pickup, twice the weight,  and looked like something that was made for the first world war.  

Second make them basic with expandable add ons.  In other words if you want a good but limited $5,000 camera, there it is.  If you want more, there is more stuff like focus tools, larger capture cards, faster readers, thunderbolt tethering, etc.

Third get rid of the layers and layers of menus.  If you've ever worked something like the Panasonic or the Sony fs100 in the heat of battle, you'll find things like changing the shutter speed and building a color look requires the hands of a heart surgeon and the patience of mortgage banker.

Fourth, make all LCD's high def, articulating and touch screen.  Hasn't anyone in the camera world ever held an I-phone?   Also make it easy to add another screen or two or three.   You can't have enough viewing options.  

Fifth, allow the camera to shoot a 5k still while it captures motion and make the sensor square with crops lines that light up depending on what format your shooting.

Sixth, make a touch screen follow focus system.  Not just touch on one spot and hold it but touch or outline a subject, then let the focus follow that subject.

If this isn't possible, then make an automatic secondary viewfinder, something that looks like a spot meter, and let the assistants, or focus puller focus on the subject while the photographer/camera operator concentrates on the subject and framing.

Seventh, high base iso with internal nd filters to lower the iso.  Why do we take a 100 iso camera and bump the curves to get to 1000, or go the other way.  Why not just start at 1000 and have a series of nd's to get us lower, or bump the curves or lut to get us higher?

Eighth.  Removable AA filters.    Kodak did it with their line of digital cameras and I had them and it worked well, it fact it worked amazingly well and since then everybody just forgot about it.  How about a series of none to strong and then let us decide which filter is best for the subject.

Ninth.   Keep it modular.  Really modular so when a new sensor design comes out or a new lcd screen don't make us toss out Ten or twenty grand worth of camera just allow us to insert a new imager or lcd or module or something.  

Red is dong something like this, or at least they were, though with RED information changes by the month, so whether anything that fits one a RED One will fit a scarlet, an Epic a scarlet 2 nobody knows, at least nobody but Peter Jackson and the companies owner.

Tenth and the most important . . . software.    Whoever writes imaging software must loathe photographers and image makers.   Why is it lightroom is 100% different interface than photoshop, C-1 different than lightroom and when you get into motion, Nuke, Color, Di-Vinci (there is a long list) works with nodes and every button is in a different place.  That would be fine except 95% of the buttons and commands do the same thing so why make them a 100% different function . . . and nodes, I want to meet the person that thought that up, because it's the craziest thing I've ever used.

I loathe learning new software and before somebody says you can't do motion with still software or your can't do stills with motion software that's bull.  CS5 Extended will do motion (though it's a pain), Nuke will do resolution free stills (though it's a pain to learn), so why it takes 4 software suites just to color imagery makes no sense to me.

That's the short list.  


IMO

BC






Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: TH_Alpa on October 11, 2011, 03:38:55 am
I confirm, sensor (production) costs are a small factor of about 20 to 30% of the price of the whole D back, as soon as one signs for a few thousands.

This being said, R&D costs to design such a sensor are to be taken in account, and those are easily around the 1'000 k mark (cf. the recent thread about the cost of developing a 8x10 sensor).

Thierry

This is absolutely not correct. ... and MF no more than a few thousands. At most.

The sensor does certainly not represent more than 20% of the cost of a camera and the larger the format the less it represents.

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 11, 2011, 04:21:28 am

Tenth and the most important . . . software.    Whoever writes imaging software must loathe photographers and image makers.   Why is it lightroom is 100% different interface than photoshop, C-1 different than lightroom and when you get into motion, Nuke, Color, Di-Vinci (there is a long list) works with nodes and every button is in a different place.  That would be fine except 95% of the buttons and commands do the same thing so why make them a 100% different function . . . and nodes, I want to meet the person that thought that up, because it's the craziest thing I've ever used.

I loathe learning new software and before somebody says you can't do motion with still software or your can't do stills with motion software that's bull.  CS5 Extended will do motion (though it's a pain), Nuke will do resolution free stills (though it's a pain to learn), so why it takes 4 software suites just to color imagery makes no sense to me.

That's the short list.  


IMO

BC


Spot-on observations.

It is indeed a complete mess. Not only for the newcomers photographers but for the gurus themselves, wich is more worrying.


I purchased a Nuke license some months ago. It is a very complex and heavy artillery software and means a really (really) serious learning curve is requiered and almost no possible self-training. (although it's more logically designed than Avid IMO).

And the sensation I have is this: tomorrow someone like Apple will bring on the table a user-friendly-intuitive-powerfull and cheap software that will do exactly the same but without the need to convert an image maker into an engineer.

I can't help thinking of this because I have the impression that commit myself into such a serious learning is a dead end on the long term because very soon that will not be necessary and possibly everybody's gran'ma will be able to do roto with zero software training. (I exagerate but not that much).

It means that technical habilities will not have the same value and probably the artistical talent is the one that really will make the difference, and that's not a bad thing at all. But then, what about user-friendly? Apple really understands something although they drive me crazy with their commercial politics, their designs understand something other company seem not to understand.

To ilustrate that point I'd talk about something that happened to me recently.

Nuke has became a standard in Hollywood and major prod houses, to the point that almost all the movies you see have been conformed in Nuke. This is not by accident. This software meets the requierements of the most demanding tasks and in the right hands, it's dead fast. (you understand that the problem is: being this right hand)
But at the same time, there is nothing you couldn't do (almost) with After-effects wich costs nothing.  

As James pointed, the fact that PS has motion capabilities and AE has stills capabilities is really frustrating not having a merged software of both with a known interface. We are at a point where this situation is ridiculous and unproductive.  The foundry actually understands that point because they are beta testing a Nuke timeline and the path is clear: one app for all. But it's not gona be an easier sotware to learn.

Back to my story, I had a very bad greenscreen the other day, very conflictive to deal with and it chalenged my current habilities. I decided to work it with Nuke using the powerfull keyer Primatte. Result? Couldn't get a perfect keying. Frustration started at that point so I decided to use the Autodesk Keyer (the flame one) and got about the same result, very similar to what I had with Nuke. Other frustration. Then...I decided to check Edius 6...and guess what? Better keying in less time, and less hassle! Not perfect still but better. Caution: I'm aware that a Nuke guru (I mean real guru) will have solved this keying for sure and saved the footage. I'm aware that I didn't get perfect results because I still have a path to recover in this high-end software, but the fact that Edius 6 had an extremely good, easy and efficient keyer that could compete with the most expensive units catch my attention.

I mean by that: are those high-end and complex softwares really so necessary? My answer is NO if you're not Hollywood and won't do Avatar or Star-wars kind of stuff.

In 98% of the cases, I find that the capabilities of a good NLE are enough. It's a lot of money for those 2% left, but for some people those 2% are what makes the difference.

Paradox: Nuke has developped a plug-in for FCPx to be able to generate XML and so there is now compatibility between Nuke and FCPx. Crazy!! One of the most simple and intuitive and "underpowered" NLE get married with one of the most powerfull sophisticated high-end compositing software. Where the hell are we going?

We are living in a crazy world where people are playing with plug-ins to entertain themselves while we need a sort of FCPx but with the Nuke capabilities. Instead of putting more efforts in adding even more complication in the pipeline, more third-party softwares, more plug-ins to chase, more different interfaces to learn etc etc...engineers and artists should meet together in convention and define routes of standardized-user-friendly softwares for both stills and motion.
  


Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: bcooter on October 11, 2011, 04:36:10 am
I confirm, sensor (production) costs are a small factor of about 20 to 30% .......snip


(http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/camera-field-array-1.jpg)
I  think digital camera evolution follows the old line of  "This is like deja vu all over again".

We've all been down this road, from the dslrs to medium format and now to motion cameras.   7 grand here, 7 grand there, 30 grand to move up, 10 grand to trade it in, 20 grand more to move up etc. etc. . . . all for just slow incremental changes that consumer electronics already had 5 years ago.

I think for professional cameras to make me or most people I know purchase, then they are going to have to get to a much lower price point, or make the cameras something we just can't do without.

Red talks about stills to digital motion or dsmc or whatever it's called.  I get it, the time is right for a real 22mpx look of a still coming from a 5k motion capture, but not for a billion bucks and not for something that is obsolete in 18 months and not for something that is still opaque when it comes to information.

As far as still cameras that just shoot stills, we're there and I don't think anything will move me to buy just a still camera for the sake of 10 more mpx or 15% more frame coverage.

Those days are over and for me and my clients, it's old think.

We really do need a new way of working because the world has a new way of consuming media.  As I write this I have one computer with an invoice and an estimate setting on the desktop, one computer on my right running apple color, one computer on my left running photoshop and on one of these computers in the background is playing the wall street journal videos.

Our studio manager goes through his day working a computer with an Ipad setting next to it watching a Hockey game and he's effective and efficient.

Personally I don't care what a "sensor" costs.  We've heard this before . . . "a sensor for a medium format back costs 80 billion dollars so feel lucky that we sell the back for only 40 billion dollars . . . etc. etc.".  

I don't know if it does, I don't care but I do know that when an I phone starts to become a more intriguing camera than a professional camera, then something is out of whack and someone is ignoring their market.

Now apple is not perfect, because even though fcpx is fascinating how good and easy nle can be and how it can be an all in one source, Apple screwed the pooch on communication and delivery of this software.

They would have got a much better reception had they made fcp 7 64 bit, and/or made fcp x and 7 compatible AND made fcp x more functional and full featured.  Apple is smart but this time they dropped the ball and they dropped it so hard that most professional editors have a 100% negative view of fcp x though 98% of them have never tried it.

But back to cameras.

I'm not Warren Buffet, but I do know how to run a small business and the one thing I've learned is to have any success in today's world the answer to a customer's requests is yes, not "we don't do that".

In fact the right answer is to anticipate and be prepared to answer the question, way before the customer asks.

But in the end it doesn't really matter if the concept is sound, the story is compelling the execution is creative.

No one camera will make this better, but a machine that doesn't get in your way, will make doing oiur jobs a little easier and a whole lot more fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XUfH-BEBMoY

But since this forum is about medium format, I think the two companies left standing, Hasselblad and Phase are just eating each other, fighting it out for an ever smaller market.

I really wish one of the companies would forget the other exists and just make a great, ground breaking,  f*&%ing camera, with no strings attached, no use to be photographer spokes people, no mine is bigger than yours sales points.

Just something that makes us smile when we pick it up, because we know today we're gonna shoot something we never shot before.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 11, 2011, 05:30:23 am
Hi,

My view is that SLR mirrors are "old think". The SLR mirror was intended to offer a capability similar to live view, and live view is actually quite useful for dead on exact focus using actual sensor pixels. So why use a complicated moving assembly with a secondary moving assembly for AF? Of course, all glass pentaprisms have better viewing than EVF, right now, but we are probably going to see a rapid development of electronic viewfinders within the next few years.

Also, with an EVF you can see the histogram before shooting the image and can have a lot of usable displays.

Best regards
Erik

Well it needs to be a huge improvement over what there is now, I just read the report on the Ricoh and I was left wondering what is the point in a viewfinder that you need to switch to a different mode in enable to focus it. i presume if you have a set of Leica lenses you probably own a Leica, it will be superior in many ways to a cropped sensor 12mp device. How is that technology making things better? it just made it different and not as good as it was over half a century ago.As for seeing histograms in the viewfinder, does anyone really now what those peaks and troughs relate to in a picture?  Half the reason we need them is because the latitude of digital is so cramped we need to make sure whatever the highlight is it's within range. We don't know for certain what that highlight is or even if we need to keep it or if keeping it helps the picture.You can over expose a picture, open it up in your raw program, slide stuff around to get the histogram to look nice and still have a bad looking picture. If I shot everything to keep a histogram from blowing out I would have drives full of underexposed images. I will look at a histogram to confirm what I thought I new and that's about it.
 I can't see why anyone would want to put more gadgets that will need tweaking/calibrating etc between your eye and the subject, less really is more in this case. The EVF will add nothing but a new set of problems, that will need new technology to solve and the solution will not be on the camera you have. It will be on the next one you need to upgrade too which will have an incremental "just worth it" improvement. An EVF will not improve anyone's photography one little bit.
I can't help but think all the new technology we keep getting sold is half the time trying to solve the problems the last new technology created. It's like we are riding a vortex and being told what great dizzy wild fun it is while being sucked down the plughole.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: design_freak on October 11, 2011, 10:33:56 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xxjiQoTp864


Can you imagine what it will be possible in 10 years?
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: MrSmith on October 11, 2011, 10:38:37 am
"I really wish one of the companies would forget the other exists and just make a great, ground breaking,  f*&%ing camera, with no strings attached, no use to be photographer spokes people, no mine is bigger than yours sales points."

all the time they have to make do with whatever the sensor manufacturers think is suitable for the market that's unlikely to happen. 
if you can spec and manufacture a sensor to you and your customers demands you deserve to succeed, making do with what another company thinks is suitable for your products is not in the final customers best interests.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 11, 2011, 11:22:08 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xxjiQoTp864


Can you imagine what it will be possible in 10 years?
Yup I hope to be sipping cold beer on a warm beach, letting others worry about Photoshop. Happy knowing I have the last box of film left in the World at home in the freezer, just incase I get the urge.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 11, 2011, 02:29:30 pm
Hi,

The new Sony cameras have very short shutter release lag, about 2 ms, due to non moving mirror and possibly electronic "first shutter courtain". The EVF will on the other hand alway have some lag, while photons in the SLR move with the speed of light.

All cameras today have live view and the option to record motion, so the sensors are capable of fast readouts.
Yes, I was thinking about the latency from scene to eye, not from scene to flash card (but interesting that it is so low).

Perhaps they could have been "better" in some ways if LV/video was not offered? (At least cooler).

Perhaps they will be worse in some ways if 120fps readout for improved contrast AF is implemented?

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2011, 03:33:27 pm
Hi,

The latency is from shutter finger pressed until shutter opens. The rapid response depends that no mirror needs to be moved out of the optical path. The A77 shots also over ten fps for the same reason.

There is probably a significant lag in the viewfinder. A77 does not have contrast AF. It uses a semi transparent mirror for AF. The exposure is made trough the mirror, so the camera looses some ISO.

The advantages I see:

1) The viewfinder image is the actual image

2) There will not be any alignment problem lens to sensor at the focus point. It's as good as it can be.

3) Viewfinder image can be at actual pixels

4) No vibration from the mirror, possible to shoot vibration free without mirror lock up if remote release is used.

5) No dust on sensor as it sticks to the mirror instead, further away not really visible at least normally

6) Flipping mirror cause air in the mirror chamber to circulate and redistribute dust, this effect will be eliminated.

7) Possible to use viewfinder enhancements like histogram, blinking highlights, peaking and virtual horison. Not all of this implemented on all cameras.

For me, live view focusing is the most crucial. I cannot focus reliably by eyesight. LV focus at actual pixels is dead accurate.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, I was thinking about the latency from scene to eye, not from scene to flash card (but interesting that it is so low).

Perhaps they could have been "better" in some ways if LV/video was not offered? (At least cooler).

Perhaps they will be worse in some ways if 120fps readout for improved contrast AF is implemented?

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 11, 2011, 05:58:57 pm
Canon built in GPS, ha ha bloody ha.
Can we really be bothered with yet more pixels in the 35mm camera, a bit more colour and DR would be much more useful.
With each new Canik, MF looks to make more sense than before. In anything other than resolution my Canon can't get close to my 40 year old Rolleiflex. I hope I'm wrong but we just get more of the same with a promise that the new AF will work  better and more frames per second. I bet the big new feature will all be based around big numbers regarding video. 5k throw away cameras are losing their appeal to me these days.

Kevin.
I think that there will prove to be different than what all web predictions show, at least with the new FF DSLR cameras we may very well be surprised! I believe that the market research has shown that the majority of photographers ask for better DR and further noise improvement, the resolution advance is not a priority anymore to the majority of photographers and the very thin video DOF of FF Dslrs makes video a secondary function for these cameras. My believe is that the new FF DSLRs will have only slight resolution increase that will on average stay (well) bellow 20mpx, emphasis will be on improved DR and noise, lighter or no AAs are to be expected and 16bit converters should appear! Things may be different with APS-c sensor cameras where the market is less uniform in its needs (needs?), I expect a good percentage of the market to address towards the "spec seekers" and a smaller, but still good percentage to have the same approach as the FF Dslrs. Surely If Fuji/Hass makes its move towards FF with a high end camera it will be very beneficial for this market and it will speed up things in a positive way, the expectation of the interchangeable sensor flagship and of another entry level FF DSLR from Nikon may also prove to be key factors for "wind direction" in the following years. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2011, 06:56:13 pm
Surely If Fuji/Hass makes its move towards FF with a high end camera it will be very beneficial for this market and it will speed up things in a positive way, the expectation of the interchangeable sensor flagship and of another entry level FF DSLR from Nikon may also prove to be key factors for "wind direction" in the following years.

Hum... I am not sure what Fuji/Hassy would be able to bring to FF DSLRs that Canon/Sony/Nikon are not already providing with extremely high levels of performance and sophistication.

I am also not sure what the problem is with current DSLRs. Neither in absolute performance nor in relative performance when compared to the actual needs of most photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 11, 2011, 11:46:40 pm
Hi Bernard,

You certainly claim that Nikon D3X is better than the rest? So Canon and Sony needs to catch up? Sony on noise and DR and Canon on read noise?

One area Nikon needs to step up on is affordable 20+ MP. The D3X is awfully expensive compared to Sony Alpha 900 and Canon 5DII. A Nikon D800 with 36 MPixels is rumored to be around soon, and it will almost certainly outperform both D3X and D700, except possibly at high ISO. And the market will absolutely accept 36 MP, as long as the camera does deliver.

Best regards
Erik



Hum... I am not sure what Fuji/Hassy would be able to bring to FF DSLRs that Canon/Sony/Nikon are not already providing with extremely high levels of performance and sophistication.

I am also not sure what the problem is with current DSLRs. Neither in absolute performance nor in relative performance when compared to the actual needs of most photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 12, 2011, 03:06:59 am
You certainly claim that Nikon D3X is better than the rest? So Canon and Sony needs to catch up? Sony on noise and DR and Canon on read noise?

One area Nikon needs to step up on is affordable 20+ MP. The D3X is awfully expensive compared to Sony Alpha 900 and Canon 5DII. A Nikon D800 with 36 MPixels is rumored to be around soon, and it will almost certainly outperform both D3X and D700, except possibly at high ISO. And the market will absolutely accept 36 MP, as long as the camera does deliver.

Hi Erik,

There are for sure some differences between top DSLRs, but they share in common what I see as much superior usability, speed and sophistication compared to what I have seen of the H series (granted my first hand experience is a few years old).

Canon has been a bit behind bodywise on most fronts for a few years, but an 1ds3 remains an excellent camera and is IMHO much superior to what I could imagine Fuji/Hassy would be able to develop. Just think AF speed/usability/accuracy, live view, screen quality, video, speed of operation,... just think also about the huge lenses line up available in EOS and F mounts.

So I don't get the excitement at the idea that Fuji/Hassy could perhaps enter the DSLR market, but I could be missing something. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 12, 2011, 04:56:07 am
1) The viewfinder image is the actual image
Counter argument: the viewfinder image is the actual _jpeg_ image. Not the image that you will end up with after umpteen hours in front of <insert favourite raw developer>. For severe sensor clipping it is probably a good thing to see it in the viewfinder (EVF advantage). For clipping that can be salvaged from other color channels or general tonemapping, it _might_ be better to see the scene "as is" instead of however the camera manufacturer choose to render it. I'd be wary about in-camera automatic black-point and white-point setting.

Same with color rendition (although argueably that does not affect the choices made by the photographer in the field to the same degree as exposure).
Quote
7) Possible to use viewfinder enhancements like histogram, blinking highlights, peaking and virtual horison. Not all of this implemented on all cameras.
Important one. We havent seen this fully exploted yet, I believe.

I want to see an image overlay dividing the image into e.g. 10 blocks by 10 blocks, where each block has an alpha-blended overlay graph showing the local magnitude of the fft (folded down to 1-dimensional for visualization). I.e. an estimate of local spatial frequency content, and thereby some measure of sharpnes (multiplied by local content of course).

.-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 12, 2011, 06:02:51 am
I want to see an image overlay dividing the image into e.g. 10 blocks by 10 blocks, where each block has an alpha-blended overlay graph showing the local magnitude of the fft (folded down to 1-dimensional for visualization). I.e. an estimate of local spatial frequency content, and thereby some measure of sharpnes (multiplied by local content of course).

.-h

Fast Fourier Transforms in the viewfinder? That's crazy talk!  ;)
Seriously, it sounds terrific in theory, but how many photographers are able to interpret an FFT graph? And how many will mistake the Fourier signature of high-ISO noise as high image sharpness? There's a lot of education to be done (and I'm all for educating people in physics/engineering) before this technique becomes a runner.

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: amsp on October 12, 2011, 07:09:54 am
I think I'm going to create a camera that doesn't take any actual photos but rather just creates a bunch of scientific data and saves it as a text file, alternatively a bunch of graphical charts for people to interpret to death. Looking at the demographic of internet forums and this one in particular there seems to be an untapped market!  ;D

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: yaya on October 12, 2011, 07:15:26 am
I think I'm going to create a camera that doesn't take any actual photos but rather just creates a bunch of scientific data and saves it as a text file, alternatively a bunch of graphical charts for people to interpret to death. Looking at the demographic of internet forums and this one in particular there seems to be an untapped market!  ;D

 ;D ;D ;D While you're at it, be sure it has a button somewhere with an option to post the data automatically onto whichever forum you're subscribed to ;)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 12, 2011, 07:27:08 am
Seriously, it sounds terrific in theory, but how many photographers are able to interpret an FFT graph?
I'd guess the same number as those able to interpret a histogram. Most of my family have never looked at or interpreted an image histogram. Basically: add the option for those that want it, make sure it does not stand in the way for those that dont.

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: cng on October 12, 2011, 07:28:01 am
;D ;D ;D While you're at it, be sure it has a button somewhere with an option to post the data automatically onto whichever forum you're subscribed to ;)

Don't forget a "Like" button and geotagged EXIF data. That way everyone can vote on the shot, and reproduce it at the same location using identical lens and camera settings.    ;)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: telyt on October 12, 2011, 07:29:51 am
I am also not sure what the problem is with current DSLRs. Neither in absolute performance nor in relative performance when compared to the actual needs of most photographers.

They're not new and shiny any more.  A new camera with additional features will give an early-adopter a leg up on the competition, until the competition buys the same camera.  Better IMHO to develop skills than spend on a new toy, the competition can't duplicate the photographer's brain and eye.  The disadvantage of this approach is that it can't be plotted and posted on an internet forum so nothing can be proven.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 12, 2011, 08:02:38 am
I'd guess the same number as those able to interpret a histogram. Most of my family have never looked at or interpreted an image histogram. Basically: add the option for those that want it, make sure it does not stand in the way for those that dont.

-h

Absolutely - options are always a good thing. When you have an option, some people will benefit, and the rest will not be harmed either way.

In fact, when I look back on the sort of gripes I've written about in photography, it's nearly always been because we have been denied a particular option:
- why isn't dark frame subtraction a de-selectable option with the PhaseOne backs?
- why is there no option of alternative viewfinders on the Mamiya 645AF line? [and the current Nikon line, Canon line, ...]
- why doesn't Nikon leave the bias level in its RAW files, giving us the option of using the negative side of the noise histogram?
- why haven't other MFD manufacturers offered user-removable IR filters, like Kodak and Mamiya did?
- why doesn't Hasselblad permit arbitrarily long exposures with the H4D-40 (the sensor is completely capable of it)?
...etc.

I know that someone will chime in - "because adding options often costs money". But key options can make the difference between someone buying your product or not - you can recoup that money.

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 12, 2011, 08:15:12 am
Don't forget a "Like" button and geotagged EXIF data. That way everyone can vote on the shot, and reproduce it at the same location using identical lens and camera settings.    ;)

I'm sensing an artists vs. scientists backlash in this thread.
In the event of outright war between the two camps, the scientists will of course have the more potent weapons  ;D ;D

Seriously, in a thread entitled "The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute", did anyone really expect that there would be no talk of possible technical improvements? 
If you are reading this thread, it must be because you are curious about such things. So I don't understand the mocking tone. ???

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Chairman Bill on October 12, 2011, 08:39:24 am
I'd like a small DSLR, about the same size as my old Nikon FM, with a full-frame sensor. No bells & whistles, I don't need/want HD video, I don't even need lots of fancy metering options & auto-exposure settings, auto-focus and the like. In fact, a digital FM would do just fine.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: telyt on October 12, 2011, 08:42:34 am
I'd like a small DSLR, about the same size as my old Nikon FM, with a full-frame sensor. No bells & whistles, I don't need/want HD video, I don't even need lots of fancy metering options & auto-exposure settings, auto-focus and the like. In fact, a digital FM would do just fine.

This deserves a "Like" button.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 09:56:38 am
Hum... I am not sure what Fuji/Hassy would be able to bring to FF DSLRs that Canon/Sony/Nikon are not already providing with extremely high levels of performance and sophistication.

I am also not sure what the problem is with current DSLRs. Neither in absolute performance nor in relative performance when compared to the actual needs of most photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard

1. Competition 2. "Most photographers" is related to industry but is irrelevant to "photography". There are many problems with current DSLRs that have to advance just to catch up with where IQ was before the digital "parade", DR and "sence" of film being two of the most important! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 10:05:38 am
Hi Bernard,

You certainly claim that Nikon D3X is better than the rest? So Canon and Sony needs to catch up? Sony on noise and DR and Canon on read noise?

One area Nikon needs to step up on is affordable 20+ MP. The D3X is awfully expensive compared to Sony Alpha 900 and Canon 5DII. A Nikon D800 with 36 MPixels is rumored to be around soon, and it will almost certainly outperform both D3X and D700, except possibly at high ISO. And the market will absolutely accept 36 MP, as long as the camera does deliver.

Best regards
Erik



No Nikon of 36mpx is going to be announced and this is because it wouldn't outperform either the D3X or the D700. Of course nobody needs A 20+ mpx DSLR, why would he? To print larger than 100x150cm that a D700 can do now? Regards,Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 10:10:43 am
I think I'm going to create a camera that doesn't take any actual photos but rather just creates a bunch of scientific data and saves it as a text file, alternatively a bunch of graphical charts for people to interpret to death. Looking at the demographic of internet forums and this one in particular there seems to be an untapped market!  ;D


Do you sell shares in advance?  :) I think I'll buy some.... ;D Regards,Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: feppe on October 12, 2011, 10:12:19 am
No Nikon of 36mpx is going to be announced and this is because it wouldn't outperform either the D3X or the D700. Of course nobody needs A 20+ mpx DSLR, why would he? To print larger than 100x150cm that a D700 can do now? Regards,Theodoros.

Your explanations should not be any clear-cut. Although it is a great tool, Google Translate is not accurate enough forum for the translation of the scriptures.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 12, 2011, 10:14:00 am
Hi,

You have that now. It's called digital camera. Takes binary digits and puts them into a raw file. Some cameras also apply Buford matrix and discrete cosine transfer to produce JPEG images.

Best regards
Erik
I think I'm going to create a camera that doesn't take any actual photos but rather just creates a bunch of scientific data and saves it as a text file, alternatively a bunch of graphical charts for people to interpret to death. Looking at the demographic of internet forums and this one in particular there seems to be an untapped market!  ;D


Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 10:19:44 am
They're not new and shiny any more.  A new camera with additional features will give an early-adopter a leg up on the competition, until the competition buys the same camera.  Better IMHO to develop skills than spend on a new toy, the competition can't duplicate the photographer's brain and eye.  The disadvantage of this approach is that it can't be plotted and posted on an internet forum so nothing can be proven.
IMO the distance to be covered between now and a really good DSLR, is the same from a 2000 DSLR till now! Of course there will be people that will be more satisfied than before as tech advances and of course the percentage of completely satisfied customers will be higher all the time, but until the remaining drawbacks of digital to where film was have been reached, I will stay with the unsatisfied ones. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 10:26:47 am
I'd like a small DSLR, about the same size as my old Nikon FM, with a full-frame sensor. No bells & whistles, I don't need/want HD video, I don't even need lots of fancy metering options & auto-exposure settings, auto-focus and the like. In fact, a digital FM would do just fine.
Shouldn't the sensor perform like your film did though? You may have notice that in these days who ever speaks about a DSLR improvement, he means the light sensitive surface, ....ie ....the film! Isn't this odd? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 10:28:37 am
 
Your explanations should not be any clear-cut. Although it is a great tool, Google Translate is not accurate enough forum for the translation of the scriptures.
??? I hope sometime you'll make sense to ...your self! Sorry ....if Google mistranslated.  8) (Without) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: telyt on October 12, 2011, 12:35:49 pm
Shouldn't the sensor perform like your film did though? You may have notice that in these days who ever speaks about a DSLR improvement, he means the light sensitive surface, ....ie ....the film! Isn't this odd? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

No thank you.  My Leica DMR left film in the dust six years ago.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: larkis on October 12, 2011, 01:06:15 pm

Fourth, make all LCD's high def, articulating and touch screen.  Hasn't anyone in the camera world ever held an I-phone?   Also make it easy to add another screen or two or three.   You can't have enough viewing options. 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but have you tried using a touch screen in sub zero temperatures or in a snow storm ? Pro gear tends to be less featured but more reliable and there is nothing worse than fun techno gizmo's braking on you when you are in extreme conditions.

Tenth and the most important . . . software.    Whoever writes imaging software must loathe photographers and image makers.   Why is it lightroom is 100% different interface than photoshop, C-1 different than lightroom and when you get into motion, Nuke, Color, Di-Vinci (there is a long list) works with nodes and every button is in a different place.  That would be fine except 95% of the buttons and commands do the same thing so why make them a 100% different function . . . and nodes, I want to meet the person that thought that up, because it's the craziest thing I've ever used.

I loathe learning new software and before somebody says you can't do motion with still software or your can't do stills with motion software that's bull.  CS5 Extended will do motion (though it's a pain), Nuke will do resolution free stills (though it's a pain to learn), so why it takes 4 software suites just to color imagery makes no sense to me.


Software is many things to many different people. It generally takes a few tools in any of the applications out there to color imagery unless you know one tool in 4 different applications. I do see that often, being a nuke user myself for my day job I have met people who will get a crack of it just to use one tool that makes a certain process easy, then they will jump to after effects to do something else that is easy there and keep switching around. Nodal applications are designed for collaborative workflows and easier hand off between artists. Getting a photoshop or after effects file an artist has worked on for days can be daunting because there is no easy way to visualize what is actually going on in the file if it has a bunch of layers, expressions and precomps. Working with nodes allows various people to work on different parts of the tree and visualize the structure of a project in a map like view. Yes, for some processes it's overkill but forcing everyone to work one way would be silly. Choice is a good thing. Lightroom is very focused to the task at hand and makes total sense. As soon as you try to do more to the image (like do all of the color grading operations it has on a masked area) it starts to fall apart and photoshop becomes more useful. A lot of applications come from a different heritage than photography and make total sense for their original use.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: feppe on October 12, 2011, 01:14:26 pm
 ??? I hope sometime you'll make sense to ...your self! Sorry ....if Google mistranslated.  8) (Without) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

It was just a demonstration that translating from Finnish to English doesn't always (or even most of the time) produce comprehensible content - and it's often the same case with translating from Greek to English.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 01:14:41 pm
No thank you.  My Leica DMR left film in the dust six years ago.
Good for you, ...keep it in dust for the next of your life if you wish so! My Leica R don't have a DMR, I take that FF Canon with it (with the adapter permanently fit on it), for when I judge DR as modest enough to shoot digital. Cheers.  8)  Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 12, 2011, 01:18:09 pm
It was just a demonstration that translating from Finnish to English doesn't always (or even most of the time) produce comprehensible content - and it's often the same case with translating from Greek to English.
Here I ....Finnish!  ;D . Sorry if Google mistranslated once more... Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 12, 2011, 05:31:36 pm
Your explanations should not be any clear-cut. Although it is a great tool, Google Translate is not accurate enough forum for the translation of the scriptures.


Somone is being apocryptic, apocryphal or apocritic. Or something. Pass me the meaning no wait, pass me the salt.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 12, 2011, 07:09:35 pm
I agree with a lot of what you are saying but have you tried using a touch screen in sub zero temperatures or in a snow storm ? Pro gear tends to be less featured but more reliable and there is nothing worse than fun techno gizmo's braking on you when you are in extreme conditions.


Software is many things to many different people. It generally takes a few tools in any of the applications out there to color imagery unless you know one tool in 4 different applications. I do see that often, being a nuke user myself for my day job I have met people who will get a crack of it just to use one tool that makes a certain process easy, then they will jump to after effects to do something else that is easy there and keep switching around. Nodal applications are designed for collaborative workflows and easier hand off between artists. Getting a photoshop or after effects file an artist has worked on for days can be daunting because there is no easy way to visualize what is actually going on in the file if it has a bunch of layers, expressions and precomps. Working with nodes allows various people to work on different parts of the tree and visualize the structure of a project in a map like view. Yes, for some processes it's overkill but forcing everyone to work one way would be silly. Choice is a good thing. Lightroom is very focused to the task at hand and makes total sense. As soon as you try to do more to the image (like do all of the color grading operations it has on a masked area) it starts to fall apart and photoshop becomes more useful. A lot of applications come from a different heritage than photography and make total sense for their original use.

Agree. I was kind of surprised of this Cooter's point in his post, knowing he pays a lot of attention in usability and efficiency and not an orthodox person, I thought it was me reading wrong. I'm also a (new) Nuke user, currently learning it and there is no question for me that the nodes are way much more efficient than the layers. And not only in a collaborative workflow.
Abandon an AE or even a complex PS project for 5 days and it's hell to be back into it, specially AE wich is one of the worst interface I've ever seen. Each time I hear After-Effects name it's like seeing the antechrist...or the antiworkflow if you prefer. With nodes I see imediatly the all picture, the groups etc and in terms of workflow I can't think of a faster method for both solo and team workflow. IMO. I'm not sure if Cooter was talking more about the oscur jargon associated than the nodes themselves.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: stevesanacore on October 12, 2011, 07:41:42 pm
Edmund, Fuji is traditionally a manufacturer that has been involved in extreme camera engineering (gx617, gx680, LF lenses, MFDBs, ...etc) not to mention its hi end cinema involvement (important to remember because of stills/video convergence), recently they announced that they plan to gain the 3rd position as largest camera manufacturer in the following few years. After the S5pro they are without a single interchangeable lens camera! (I don't know if Hass H is still marketed as fujifilm in the Japanese market, ...somebody may enlighten us here), but since the economic and construction relationship with Hass is evident and Fuji has production capabilities of their own sensors, I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a lower market Hass/upper market Fuji new series of cameras that would relate to each other like Leica and Panasonic does, but to a higher level! Such a move, would be very beneficial for us photographers because it would increase competition with the Canikons and would speed tech advancement! Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr

Fuji has a great reputation with pros from all the great cameras and lenses they made in the film days. It doesn't need Hasselblad as a partner to make great cameras or lenses to help design them or sell them. No offense intended to Hasselblad which I also have the highest regard for.

A lot has already been expressed that sum up my feelings of frustration with Canon and Nikon. I think Sony, Panasonic and maybe Fuji will be the dominant camera companies of the future. They have no legacy cameras to protect. Sony broke new ground with the F3 and FS100, so let's hope they do the same in the DSLR world.

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: theguywitha645d on October 12, 2011, 08:37:37 pm
I think Sony, Panasonic and maybe Fuji will be the dominant camera companies of the future. They have no legacy cameras to protect. Sony broke new ground with the F3 and FS100, so let's hope they do the same in the DSLR world.



Sony DSLRs follow the legacy of the Minolta cameras and lens systems. But Canon has broken its own legacy before which is why there are two lens mounts. Sony is doing very well right now, but they have blown it before. Funny thing about history, it tends to repeat itself. Canon and Nikon have shown themselves to be innovative as well.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 12, 2011, 10:46:50 pm
A lot has already been expressed that sum up my feelings of frustration with Canon and Nikon.

Just out of curiosity, would you mind describing where you come from with these brands and what issues you have with them?

Thanks,

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 13, 2011, 03:49:02 am
Fuji has a great reputation with pros from all the great cameras and lenses they made in the film days. It doesn't need Hasselblad as a partner to make great cameras or lenses to help design them or sell them. No offense intended to Hasselblad which I also have the highest regard for.

A lot has already been expressed that sum up my feelings of frustration with Canon and Nikon. I think Sony, Panasonic and maybe Fuji will be the dominant camera companies of the future. They have no legacy cameras to protect. Sony broke new ground with the F3 and FS100, so let's hope they do the same in the DSLR world.


I never said that Fuji needs anybody (Sony or Panasonic don't need Zeiss or Leica either), however for Fuji to be absent from the interchangeable lens market for so long, it can only be beneficial to enter the market alongside with a "Heavy name" partner that could also be a very good customer... due to common mount lenses and additional body assembly. Thus I think that such a partnership can be prosperous for both..., since it would increase "entrance market" volume for Fuji and would give Hass additional market. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 13, 2011, 03:53:31 am
No thank you.  My Leica DMR left film in the dust six years ago.
Did it really, which film and which dust?
 Not long ago I could see no reason for shooting film either, in fact I still don't see much use in shooting transparency film, I think digital does that job better. What I do find is once you have got over the Oohhs and ahhs of digital detail and start looking for other stuff in the picture a decent scan of colour negative leaves digital somewhat wanting.
I'm even looking at TV these days and thinking yes it sharp, yes the colour is neutral but there is no character in it or great depth. It's like decorating your house in the style of a hospital operating theatre, all neat clean, bright, precise and cold. I was watching Spooks the other night and thought someone spent a lot of time getting it very neutral with bang on skin tones, but the greens in the park lacked any great range of green and that's it for me in the digital I have experience of, yes you get the colours it gives you bang on , but it does not give you many colours.
If it was not for the fact I need digital to make a living, I think I would not bother with it, the more I look the less I like about it, the less I like the bells and whistles that clutter the cameras up and the endless permutations of setting the camera up.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 13, 2011, 04:01:22 am
Did it really, which film and which dust?
 Not long ago I could see no reason for shooting film either, in fact I still don't see much use in shooting transparency film, I think digital does that job better. What I do find is once you have got over the Oohhs and ahhs of digital detail and start looking for other stuff in the picture a decent scan of colour negative leaves digital somewhat wanting.
I'm even looking at TV these days and thinking yes it sharp, yes the colour is neutral but there is no character in it or great depth. It's like decorating your house in the style of a hospital operating theatre, all neat clean, bright, precise and cold. I was watching Spooks the other night and thought someone spent a lot of time getting it very neutral with bang on skin tones, but the greens in the park lacked any great range of green and that's it for me in the digital I have experience of, yes you get the colours it gives you bang on , but it does not give you many colours.
If it was not for the fact I need digital to make a living, I think I would not bother with it, the more I look the less I like about it, the less I like the bells and whistles that clutter the cameras up and the endless permutations of setting the camera up.

Kevin.

+1. Exactly the way its written in my mind as well, inevitably digital will overcome its disadvantages, but we are not there yet... not yet! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ixania2 on October 13, 2011, 04:13:16 am
IMO the distance to be covered between now and a really good DSLR, is the same from a 2000 DSLR till now! Of course there will be people that will be more satisfied than before as tech advances and of course the percentage of completely satisfied customers will be higher all the time, but until the remaining drawbacks of digital to where film was have been reached, I will stay with the unsatisfied ones. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

The dslrs in 2025 will be far superior to anything you canimaging now.
But i will like the unsharp pictures of cartier-bresson even more, with burnt skies without clouds.
Why, oh why?.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 13, 2011, 04:29:08 am
If it was not for the fact I need digital to make a living, I think I would not bother with it, the more I look the less I like about it, the less I like the bells and whistles that clutter the cameras up and the endless permutations of setting the camera up.


I presume you are not referring to medium format or view cameras with digital backs or scan backs. Because (a) nearly all these cameras can also shoot film and (b) one would hardly describe them as being cluttered with bells and whistles and endless permutations. "Digital" is a broad church, as broad as film ever was/is; somewhere in that church there may be a digital or hybrid platform which you could find yourself liking, if not loving.

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 13, 2011, 08:37:58 am
The dslrs in 2025 will be far superior to anything you canimaging now.
But i will like the unsharp pictures of cartier-bresson even more, with burnt skies without clouds.
Why, oh why?.
  :) YOU KNOW WHY! But lets stay with the topic here.... Mind you though that some can misunderstand your quote and think that you are an enemy of DR..., I felt surprised that when I mentioned Cartier's saying that "the photographer should be able to vision the photograph before he even captures it" and even emphasized that "a photograph is only the printed image", which should be considered a fundamental to photography, there were some "photographers" (the same that can misunderstood your quote) that opposed even that..... There is one thing for sure, ....for the moment film is here to stay until 2025 (maybe... more or less) and make us smile with its extra abilities from current digital! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
 P.S. I really admired your ...poetic approach, it proves that art can save words.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: telyt on October 13, 2011, 08:38:31 am
Did it really, which film and which dust?

All of the color films I compared it with.  Color gradation, detail, shadow and highlight detail retention are all clearly better with the DMR.  If you think that CaNikon's digital cameras are the best digital cameras available I can see how you'd reach the conclusion you have, but they're quite lacking in several areas.  It is a mistake IMHO to paint all digital cameras with the same brush based on experience with only the popular brands.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 13, 2011, 08:57:06 am
All of the color films I compared it with.  Color gradation, detail, shadow and highlight detail retention are all clearly better with the DMR.  If you think that CaNikon's digital cameras are the best digital cameras available I can see how you'd reach the conclusion you have, but they're quite lacking in several areas.  It is a mistake IMHO to paint all digital cameras with the same brush based on experience with only the popular brands.
Are you trying to say that the DMR (which is really an imacon), is better than my Imacon 528c? I say this because my 528c may be far better than the Canikons digital that you mention, but there is still some handicap left over some aspects of negative film (which have been discussed earlier) and certainly its not advantages that the superb Leitz glass can  overcome. I know because I am using equally superb (or better) glass on my Contax 645. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: telyt on October 13, 2011, 09:15:45 am
Are you trying to say that the DMR (which is really an imacon), is better than my Imacon 528c? I say this because my 528c may be far better than the Canikons digital that you mention, but there is still some handicap left over some aspects of negative film (which have been discussed earlier) and certainly its not advantages that the superb Leitz glass can  overcome. I know because I am using equally superb (or better) glass on my Contax 645. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

The DMR is an Imacon/Kodak/Leica product, and I compared it with 35mm films.  A 645 is an inappropriate camera for my photography so a cross-format comparison is pointless.  For 35mm-format photography the only film I'm willing to use instead of the DMR is fine-grain B&W.  For 35mm-format color photography at comparable ISO I much prefer the color quality, gradation, highlight, mid-tone & shadow detail and noise (vs. film grain) from the DMR, using the same Leica APO lenses on both the film camera and the DMR.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 13, 2011, 12:01:10 pm
The DMR is an Imacon/Kodak/Leica product, and I compared it with 35mm films.  A 645 is an inappropriate camera for my photography so a cross-format comparison is pointless.  For 35mm-format photography the only film I'm willing to use instead of the DMR is fine-grain B&W.  For 35mm-format color photography at comparable ISO I much prefer the color quality, gradation, highlight, mid-tone & shadow detail and noise (vs. film grain) from the DMR, using the same Leica APO lenses on both the film camera and the DMR.
"Prefer" is different, than what you earlier quoted..., the qualities of film that are retained in advance of digital are independent of the size of the area that is covered by the medium. For example highlight DR is (much) better with film than digital, either with my FF or with my APS-c or even with my MFDB. But "I prefer..." is certainly something that nobody can argue with. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 13, 2011, 06:22:33 pm
If you think that CaNikon's digital cameras are the best digital cameras available I can see how you'd reach the conclusion you have

They may not be the best, but there are more differences between a D3x and a 1Ds3 than there is between a P65+ and a D3x... so I don't believe that the entity CaNikon has any more meaning than Phikon or sHassony would have.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/485|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/436|0/%28brand2%29/Canon

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/485|0/%28brand%29/Nikon/%28appareil2%29/579|0/%28brand2%29/Phase%20One

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: telyt on October 13, 2011, 09:39:15 pm
"Prefer" is different, than what you earlier quoted..., the qualities of film that are retained in advance of digital are independent of the size of the area that is covered by the medium. For example highlight DR is (much) better with film than digital, either with my FF or with my APS-c or even with my MFDB. But "I prefer..." is certainly something that nobody can argue with. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

I find much better highlight DR with the DMR than with any of the color films I've used.  "I prefer" better highlight DR.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 14, 2011, 01:47:34 am
Hi,

I actually compared DR on my Alpha 900 and Kodak Ektar 100. It's about the same, but Ektar compresses shadows and highlights.

Imatest says total DR is 12 stops for Ektar and 10.8 for Alpha 900, but for "high quality" it says 5.34 for Ektar and 8.69 for Alpha 900. Not easy to shoot a Stouffer Wedge, but same setup was used for both. This is scanned on my CCD scanner, I would not rule out that a drum scanner would be able to extract more DR, but I assume that highlight compression is more a feature of the film than of the scan.

This crop from an Ektar 100 shot shows very little detail on sunlit white wall:
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/images/PublishedTests/ArticleSamples/A900vsEkar6096_wall_small.jpg)

Top left: Sonya Alpha 900, top right Ektar 100 6x7 drum scanned at 6096 PPI bottom left same negative scanned on CCD scanner. All the images scaled to the same height (17000 pixels). Drum scanning of the Ektar image was kindly made at http://www.high-end-scans.de . The CCD scan was intentionally made a bit dark, to keep as much detail as possible in another part of the image. I presume that this sample illustrates that highlight compression is for real.

Best regards
Erik

I find much better highlight DR with the DMR than with any of the color films I've used.  "I prefer" better highlight DR.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 14, 2011, 03:35:14 am
I find much better highlight DR with the DMR than with any of the color films I've used.  "I prefer" better highlight DR.
My findings are different you may find that others state so as well, perhaps you are not scanning film right, surely there is something in your process of comparing that should be revised, Erik's quote up there states correctly that film compresses more highlight range in its S-slope (curve) this is my observation as well. But again you may consider what you have enough, ...it doesn't have to do be the same with all of us, does it? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: bcooter on October 14, 2011, 01:55:51 pm
Agree. I was kind of surprised of this Cooter's point in his post, ......snip........

I understand the reason for nodes, just as I understand that in the past it took 10,000 watts to light a scene.

The thing is I think those days are leaving us, because as any tech company will tell you, it's all about software.

Once again, I'll mention fcpx and everytime I mention this software, I have to add a disclaimer that today it's not ready to edit a full feature movie, BUT, the system makes sense.

Whatever you do to a file you can visually see and adjust on a timeline by just clicking and opening it and you can share fcpx projects between workstations.

I just think, most imaging software is old think and I do believe we're going to get to the point with still and motion imagery where whatever we shoot on the day, we can take a controller like an Ipad and do enough close effects in very short order where a client or director or the money guy can see almost exactly what the session will look like on set, not in 4 weeks of post production.

How this relates to cameras? 

We'll cameras like some imaging software are still stuck in 1996 and if that works for a particular artist or style then that's great, but I believe the world is moving much faster than that and everything from pre, on set and post production has to be easier, more cost effective and faster, without sacrificing the story, the look and the project.

In fact, I believe it all has to become more intuitive and simple, to free up the creative process.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 14, 2011, 03:13:37 pm
I understand the reason for nodes, just as I understand that in the past it took 10,000 watts to light a scene.

The thing is I think those days are leaving us, because as any tech company will tell you, it's all about software.

Once again, I'll mention fcpx and everytime I mention this software, I have to add a disclaimer that today it's not ready to edit a full feature movie, BUT, the system makes sense.

Whatever you do to a file you can visually see and adjust on a timeline by just clicking and opening it and you can share fcpx projects between workstations.

I just think, most imaging software is old think and I do believe we're going to get to the point with still and motion imagery where whatever we shoot on the day, we can take a controller like an Ipad and do enough close effects in very short order where a client or director or the money guy can see almost exactly what the session will look like on set, not in 4 weeks of post production.

How this relates to cameras?  

We'll cameras like some imaging software are still stuck in 1996 and if that works for a particular artist or style then that's great, but I believe the world is moving much faster than that and everything from pre, on set and post production has to be easier, more cost effective and faster, without sacrificing the story, the look and the project.

In fact, I believe it all has to become more intuitive and simple, to free up the creative process.

IMO

BC


I certainly won't contradict yourself on that, because I'm suffering daily, like a lot of us, the mess (to be polite) of the ridiculous complexity of the pipeline and the unfriendliness if not hostile interfaces.

Yes camera are using stone age designs so as softwares and all that will be soon irrelevant in the fascinating digital age we just entered.

Indeed we need as soon as posible a huge step in camera-softwares designs and get much more intuitive and fast and reliable and standardized processes because as you point, it's such a mess that the time we have to use in order to solve this or that generaly silly issue could be better used for the creative processes.

About the nodes IMO, they make all sense when a very complex task has to be done and no short-cut possible, like special FX. But they make zero sense IMO in a Da-Vinci software for ex dedicated to grade, it's complicating where it should be simple, overkill. Having started to use Nuke recently, I could see how good they are in FX compared to the layers and how they can make what would be a complete mess into a very intuitive and flexible workflow, instantanously playing different settings in different viewers, allowing to group them logicaly so if I abandon a project for awhile it costs nothing to be back into it.

But there is no question that we really need much more intuitive tools and less softwares involved.

My dream would be this: a thought process software. You think the result, and the software does it for you. We'll get there I'm sure. Our bones will already be back where they come from, but it will come.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 18, 2011, 05:46:02 am
I presume you are not referring to medium format or view cameras with digital backs or scan backs. Because (a) nearly all these cameras can also shoot film and (b) one would hardly describe them as being cluttered with bells and whistles and endless permutations. "Digital" is a broad church, as broad as film ever was/is; somewhere in that church there may be a digital or hybrid platform which you could find yourself liking, if not loving.

Ray
Correct my experience is DSLR's are of the FF 35mm variety. Each new one of them makes MF more sensible for taking pictures.
But I can't make a business case for MF, I try but it just does not add up. I would not make a penny more if I supplied my clients with a file shot on a MF system over a Canon. I don't see digital output having anywhere near the variety of film.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 18, 2011, 06:03:07 am
All of the color films I compared it with.  Color gradation, detail, shadow and highlight detail retention are all clearly better with the DMR.  If you think that CaNikon's digital cameras are the best digital cameras available I can see how you'd reach the conclusion you have, but they're quite lacking in several areas.  It is a mistake IMHO to paint all digital cameras with the same brush based on experience with only the popular brands.
Sorry mate but that is way off the mark, better DR? I think not. Try Portra 160, get a few multi sampled 48 bit dng scans, then come back and report.
I have never used the latest Phaseone, but I doubt they could get near the DR of the latest colour negs. Before you mention grain, for all practical output there isn't any.
If you compared the DR with Chrome then it's about the same, except digital throws the towel in at the extremes with ugly side effects.
We all mostly moved from Ektachrome/Fujichrome to digital and thought wow, well take a look at the latest colour neg and you might go WOW.
If landscape was my thing I would think a LF and Portra would give a lovely look to prints. If portraits was my thing I would think Portra would give a lovely look to prints. As it is, I overexpose it and get shadow detail while retaining highlights.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 18, 2011, 06:16:46 am
My findings are different you may find that others state so as well, perhaps you are not scanning film right, surely there is something in your process of comparing that should be revised, Erik's quote up there states correctly that film compresses more highlight range in its S-slope (curve) this is my observation as well. But again you may consider what you have enough, ...it doesn't have to do be the same with all of us, does it? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Same here, I find highlight detail retention on film (Portra 160) is huge, the difficult part is capturing it in a scan.
In fact if you read anything about the film everyone is knocked out by it's ability to retain highlight. I tried it at a full 6 stops normal dev over exposed and could still get a perfectly decent image out of it, my Canon struggled at +2, at +3. Any highlight was giving up in a truly weird way. Not that we go out to over or under expose at any time, but the latitude of Portra is amazing.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Graham Mitchell on October 18, 2011, 06:47:17 am

Canon seem to be gearing up for a 1Ds4 launch pronto, and are said to be showing around a 5DMarkIII.


Well now we know that the new flagship is the 1Dx, with 18 MP.
www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/EOS_1Dx/
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 18, 2011, 11:13:35 am
Well now we know that the new flagship is the 1Dx, with 18 MP.
www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/EOS_1Dx/
......and it's just more of the same. I keep fighting the urge for MF then Canon bring out something like this and MF starts to make sense again.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 18, 2011, 11:54:30 am
Well now we know that the new flagship is the 1Dx, with 18 MP.
www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/EOS_1Dx/

Great to see that they didn't just chase more MP pointlessly. Dropping to 18MP for their FF flagship is actually a rather bold and progressive move. As they continue to improve readout noise, the larger pixels have enabled them to reach astonishing high ISO. I used to joke about "1 meeellion ISO!" in the mode of Dr. Evil, but that day is getting closer.

All I'd really care about is the sensor; IMO stuff like the 61 AF points is completely superfluous!

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: amsp on October 18, 2011, 01:00:07 pm
Anyone hear anything about a new camera from Phase/Mamiya? That's really the only thing that would get me excited nowadays. I'm extremely happy with my back, I just want a better camera to put it on.

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: yaya on October 18, 2011, 02:17:09 pm
......and it's just more of the same. I keep fighting the urge for MF then Canon bring out something like this and MF starts to make sense again.

Kevin.

One day Kevin...one day.... ;)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 18, 2011, 02:56:21 pm
Great to see that they didn't just chase more MP pointlessly. Dropping to 18MP for their FF flagship is actually a rather bold and progressive move. As they continue to improve readout noise, the larger pixels have enabled them to reach astonishing high ISO. I used to joke about "1 meeellion ISO!" in the mode of Dr. Evil, but that day is getting closer.

All I'd really care about is the sensor; IMO stuff like the 61 AF points is completely superfluous!

Ray
But it is kind of confession from Canon that they where doing something wrong with their "resolution advantage" as they fead many people with this idea, isn't it? Now we have all this people waiting for that 36mpx D800 (which of course will never be)...., lets just hope that the megapixel war is over and that they will work for the things that really matter to photography, like DR, noise, LPF ,A/D convertors. The things that will make us to invest on a camera for many years! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: bcooter on October 19, 2011, 02:55:25 am
snip......

 lets just hope that the megapixel war is over and that they will work for the things that really matter to photography, like DR, noise, LPF ,A/D convertors. The things that will make us to invest on a camera for many years! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

Sorry for the double positing though I think this applies.

This week working with 6 and 7 young assistants all were impressed with the news of the new Canon, much more than a high megapixel Nikon, or a medium format back.

I was surprised of the overwhelming positive response, though I agree as I never have cared for computer pixel peeping and given my options use my p21+ vs my p30+, use my 5d2 as much as my 1ds3's and even from time to time use my original 1ds1.

But getting back to the 1dx, it fits the market for this next generation of photographers as they don't care about $40,000 mega money, mega pixel still cameras with limited iso,  that are slow and stills dedicated.

They mostly own 5d2's and Nikon d3x/d700s and if they're going to spend over 6 thousand for a camera, the new Canon will be the one, because they believe it's a camera that finally proves megapixels are not near as important as overall usability and longer term investment.

In fact all of these young photographers work in LA and New York regularly and on high profile projects and in their young short careers, they've noticed that even the highest level photographer is squeezed on time, has to up their production quantity and given the nature of having to shoot stills and video in parallel know that the aspect of going to high clean iso and tether through ethernet, is more than a small step forward.

(FWIW, most of these assistants having learned on digital have also added film to their personal repretioire shooting everything from contax rangefinders to twin lens mamiya and rollei's, so the old ways and older formats are not lost on them.

Still, when it comes to writing the check, all said if they find the extra money and the Canon comes out glitch free, that is the direction they will go.   They all know that in the rare instance some client demands 6 million pixels, they can always rent for the week.

Time will tell, but I personally think this was a brave, smart move by Canon.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 19, 2011, 03:34:19 am
Anyone hear anything about a new camera from Phase/Mamiya? That's really the only thing that would get me excited nowadays. I'm extremely happy with my back, I just want a better camera to put it on.



Yes, there will be a new camera from Phase/Mamiya it will have a very good sensor, wonderful image quality, kick like a shotgun, and focus in modeling lights like a 90 year old with cataracts.

Now, concerning the Canon, it's pretty obvious there is a second announcement coming down the chute. My prediction is a 45MP still/ 1080p video hybrid with no mechanical shutter and an electronic viewfinder, on-sensor feature tracking for focus and the ability to extract stills from video. In other words,a one-size fits all workhorse production unit for high-end studio and tethered work.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 19, 2011, 03:58:22 am
Yes, there will be a new camera from Phase/Mamiya it will have a very good sensor, wonderful image quality, kick like a shotgun, and focus in modeling lights like a 90 year old with cataracts.

Now, concerning the Canon, it's pretty obvious there is a second announcement coming down the chute. My prediction is a 45MP still/ 1080p video hybrid with no mechanical shutter and an electronic viewfinder, on-sensor feature tracking for focus and the ability to extract stills from video. In other words,a one-size fits all workhorse production unit for high-end studio and tethered work.

Edmund

Mmm...I don't think we're there yet.

Have they talked about raw video? Because it is not a luxury. Have they talk about in-board ND filters?...(because I don't know you guys but I'm completly fed-up of the matte-box circus. Are we talking about usability and free our devices or not?), connectors: again this hdmi and mini jacks? etc... to add in the list ...

I see more of the same design that we always know. A little better implemented, a little more clever, but it's the same old bloody song. A 50 years old dusty design camera. I don't understand the excitement really.

You know what,  I think the suprise (the real combo) might come not from Canon or Nikon but from video camera makers. Won't be surprise if tomorrow we'll shoot proper stills on a Red or a Sony or a Pana, all in raw with minimum need of accessories.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 19, 2011, 04:35:38 am
Fred,

 I'm sure Canon can make a video camera if they really want to, and call it a 1Ds ...japan is a free country :)
 I believe they have brought out several PL-mount zoom lenses of late ...

Edmund

Mmm...I don't think we're there yet.

Have they talked about raw video? Because it is not a luxury. Have they talk about in-board ND filters?...(because I don't know you guys but I'm completly fed-up of the matte-box circus. Are we talking about usability and free our devices or not?), connectors: again this hdmi and mini jacks? etc... to add in the list ...

I see more of the same design that we always know. A little better implemented, a little more clever, but it's the same old bloody song. A 50 years old dusty design camera. I don't understand the excitement really.

You know what,  I think the suprise (the real combo) might come not from Canon or Nikon but from video camera makers. Won't be surprise if tomorrow we'll shoot proper stills on a Red or a Sony or a Pana, all in raw with minimum need of accessories.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 19, 2011, 06:56:33 am
Sure. If Canon want, they can.

But they apply a successfull recipy, in other words, they enhance what's already there. Saying that this device is a 4x4 is marketing claim. The 1D X (how strange this fashion to put the X) is a still camera, with better video capabilities, yes, but it is a still camera exactly using the same design as the former ones, as the Nikons, as the MF...nothing new under the sun if not a little more inteligently implemented in terms of specs.

Nothing that we do not have yet in a little bit more matured version. A little better low-light (but it's not going to be amazingly better than the 5D2), maybe shooting at 240000isos, things like that.

I find this camera absolutly unexciting

and it's not gona be cheap like the 5d2.

I think actually that the coming players will not be the ones who have monopolized the pro set-ups those years.



As we are in a MF forum, what all that has to do with MF ? well, it has to do in the sense that MF players are IMO in front of a delicate and critical choice today: or, keeping alive the tradition, what's already there, for a bunch of collectionists and a few high-end applications; or...changing their minds and start to get involved into convergence and different designs keeping modularity.

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 19, 2011, 08:26:45 am


As we are in a MF forum, what all that has to do with MF ? well, it has to do in the sense that MF players are IMO in front of a delicate and critical choice today: or, keeping alive the tradition, what's already there, for a bunch of collectionists and a few high-end applications; or...changing their minds and start to get involved into convergence and different designs keeping modularity.



I think we as MF users can expect things to really change for us when it becomes feasible for someone to make cheap backs that fit old Hassleblads, Rolleis. At that point I will be a retiree, and will get a Hassy back that gives me back those big clear square images which I've missed for so long. And I'll be able to take the autoportrait for my Facebook memorial. BTW, I'd expect facebook memorial album design to become big business.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 19, 2011, 09:49:03 am
Sorry for the double positing though I think this applies.

This week working with 6 and 7 young assistants all were impressed with the news of the new Canon, much more than a high megapixel Nikon, or a medium format back.

I was surprised of the overwhelming positive response, though I agree as I never have cared for computer pixel peeping and given my options use my p21+ vs my p30+, use my 5d2 as much as my 1ds3's and even from time to time use my original 1ds1.

But getting back to the 1dx, it fits the market for this next generation of photographers as they don't care about $40,000 mega money, mega pixel still cameras with limited iso,  that are slow and stills dedicated.

They mostly own 5d2's and Nikon d3x/d700s and if they're going to spend over 6 thousand for a camera, the new Canon will be the one, because they believe it's a camera that finally proves megapixels are not near as important as overall usability and longer term investment.

In fact all of these young photographers work in LA and New York regularly and on high profile projects and in their young short careers, they've noticed that even the highest level photographer is squeezed on time, has to up their production quantity and given the nature of having to shoot stills and video in parallel know that the aspect of going to high clean iso and tether through ethernet, is more than a small step forward.

(FWIW, most of these assistants having learned on digital have also added film to their personal repretioire shooting everything from contax rangefinders to twin lens mamiya and rollei's, so the old ways and older formats are not lost on them.

Still, when it comes to writing the check, all said if they find the extra money and the Canon comes out glitch free, that is the direction they will go.   They all know that in the rare instance some client demands 6 million pixels, they can always rent for the week.

Time will tell, but I personally think this was a brave, smart move by Canon.

IMO

BC
I agree on the reasoning and everything you say, I also agree that this will be the best Canon ever by far... What I find strange, is you calling them brave for something they did wrong for the last 4 years or so, I guess its a different perspective the way we judge their decision, I call it "requiring apology" from the customers for doing wrong all this time, you call it "brave" but against what? The enemy that was doing different was themselves! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: bcooter on October 19, 2011, 11:28:15 am
I agree on the reasoning and everything you say, I also agree that this will be the best Canon ever by far... What I find strange, is you calling them brave for something they did wrong for the last 4 years or so, I guess its a different perspective the way we judge their decision, I call it "requiring apology" from the customers for doing wrong all this time, you call it "brave" but against what? The enemy that was doing different was themselves! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr


I've never held the new canon and have no stake in the company, but yes . . . I think it's brave to go against the grain.

Since the start of digital capture (still and motion) we've all bought into more pixels.

From 6 megapixels to 12 we needed to because of aliasing, but past that it just seemed like diminished returns, especially since reviewers, testers, dealers and brick wall photographers kept pointing out look, you can see that part of the  wall is more detailed.

In the late in the early 2000's when we bought cameras like they were suv's.   We'd get one that had 50 more horsepower of course it weighed 500 more lbs. so most of the gains were negated.  

So this is a camera that goes against the common sales structure of bigger is better.

I read a brief part of that canon press release and it mentioned that uprezzing will satisfy a client's need for large imagery or something like that and once again that's something I agree upon, because if the image is sharp and not blocked with noise then it looks a lot better uprezzed than a blotchy soft image, but everyone knows that.

What I do know, is that this will rage on another dslr vs. medium format debate.  The medium format faithful will say, "see, see, Canon can't compete, the dslr faithful will say "see, see, it goes past 200 iso", but in reality if it really does do high iso that's useable, there are a lot of applications that can work for.

Imagine a small powered led or hmi set that holds the detail of flash?   That would be pretty amazing and I'm sure somebody will say, "I never shoot at night, but hey, nighttime is 1/2 of our life and to some the best half".

These images were shot with small hand held leds. that weighed less than 3 lbs each and a 5d2.  This type of light opens up a lot of possibilities.

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/paris_led.jpg)

Past that . . .

I do know I dig the idea of 12fps because I've shot 4, 6, 8, and 12fps video for effect and it's pretty cool.    

I'll buy one probably for that reason alone.

I think all of this is kind of funny.  I have an 18mpx and 30 mox digital backs and when I use them I use the p21+ a lot more than the larger back because it's faster, more responsive and honestly I've never had a client ask or know the difference, even when I've shot them side by side.

Maybe that's a new  level of mfd back makers.  Dust off the shelves of the the p21+ and lower the price, maybe with a better lcd.

Just a thought.


IMO

BC


Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 19, 2011, 12:20:20 pm
I don't get it.

We are in digital age now for quite a long time. Motion is a reality now for enough time for camera manufacturers to take that seriously.  We are in a ww economical and cyclic crisis for also quite a long time. And what do we see? more of the same: last-minute adaptations.

-Why should we still have to put-up with designs that where made basically a century ago? when electronics gives almnost any kind of possibilities for designers to be creative to a point that wasn't thinkable before.
-why should we still have to stand things like matte-boxes and all the zacuto's artillery in 2011 that make looks the camera like a huge and hugly mecano?
-why this plague of micro fragile conectors in still camera devices?
-Why it still seems so painfull to have a device that works both for still and motion imagery so the investment is still doubled.
-Why we are still talking after all those years of softwares developpement about having to get a pentagon suite to color grade, and that the only exciting and "revolutiuonary" thing that appeared in the last decades was something called final cut pro x that is not ready yet and full of bugs.
-why can't we zoom and focus any modern motion lens with our cell-phones? do timelapse with our cell-phones but yes, having some fancy gadgeteries like the electronic clap on the I.phone and those, for sure, come at the speed of light, like any useless thing.
-why can't we shoot 24 fps 12MP (and I'm not even talking about Raw) image sequence for more than 2 sec and are still stucked into ridiculous buffer stuff, space limitations, mess of more and more exotic codecs, menus more complicated that a 747 cockpit, still softwares that are just doing still and motion softwares that are doing still the painfull way, new formats or codecs like this Canon will have that nothing will read, as always, so we'll need to chase more third-party stuff, more devices, more micro program and latest versions so we buy.
-why do we still have to transcode in 2011?
-Why it seems that asking MF manufacturers to be creative, stop their absurd pixel race, go motion and enhance low-light capabilities is like asking them a huge unrealistic favor, but yes, ferraris and lamborghinis editions, that also seems very easy for them to (re)produce while the world of mini-camera and phone is moving the tech ahead. So yes, in that context, the movement of Canon is brave but if you think about it, simply rational. Do I aplaude the new Canon specs? To me it's a huge disapointment, it's more of the same we already have.


-why...etc...

Because the reality, is instead of having simplified and unified stuff, it's always more and more and more things to add.

I think this industry, Canon included, deserves a real kick in the ass by a new player. And hope it will be some brand like Red One.



Below: how many years separate those 4 cameras?  Last minute adaptations sold at 8000 bucks. I wonder for how long we are still going to see that.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 19, 2011, 12:27:09 pm
No objection on anything of the above either BC! I still don't see why you find them "brave", it was their salesman that were trying to feed people with this "mpx count" ideas wasn't it? On the other hand the Nikon salesmen where trying to defend themselves bravely and sale 12mpx cameras for better, I mean you are not brave to change policy because you was wrong, its your opponent that you admit to be right all this time! You rather make a confession/apology than prove brave, don't you? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 19, 2011, 12:54:11 pm
I don't get it.

We are in digital age now for quite a long time. Motion is a reality now for enough time for camera manufacturers to take that seriously.  We are in a ww economical and cyclic crisis for also quite a long time. And what do we see? more of the same.

-Why should we still have to put-up with designs that where made basically a century ago? when electronics gives almnost any kind of possibilities for designers to be creative to a point that wasn't thinkable before.
-why should we still have to stand things like matte-boxes and all the zacuto's artillery in 2011 that make looks the camera like a huge and hugly mecano?
-why this plague of micro fragile conectors in still camera devices?
-Why it still seems so painfull to have a device that works both for still and motion imagery so the investment is still doubled.
-Why we are still talking after all those years of softwares developpement about having to get a pentagon suite to color grade, and that the only exciting and "revolutiuonary" thing that appeared in the last decades was something called final cut pro x that is not ready yet and full of bugs.
-why can't we zoom and focus a motion lens with our cell-phones? do timelapse with our cell-phones but yes, having some fancy gadgeteries like the electronic clap on the I.phone and those, for sure, come at the speed of light, like any useless thing.
-why can't we shoot 24 fps image sequence and are still stucked into ridiculous buffer stuff, mess of exotic codecs, still softwares that are just doing still, new format or codec like this Canon will have that nothing will read, as always, so we'll need to chase more third-party stuff, more devices, more micro program.
-why do we still have to transcode in 2011?
-Why it seems that asking MF manufacturers to be creative, stop the pixel race, go motion and enhance low-light capabilities is like asking them a huge unrealistic favor, but yes, ferraris and lamborghinis versions, that also seems very easy for them to get into it.

-why...etc...

Because the reality, is instead of having simplified and unified stuff, it's always more and more and more thing to add.

I think this industry, Canon included, deserves a real kick in the ass by a new player. And hope it will be Red One.



  
I believe that you refer to 1DX video capabilities that seem not to be better than 7d/5d is it? If that is your point, I think that the answer is "because Canon will be alone in FF video". I also believe that they included it with the 1DX for marketing reasons (I suspect that Nikon will do the same in their FF), just to keep the 5d2 "video myth", that kept 5d2 sales high. They know FF video will never survive! Video belongs to the APS-c cameras that have the same DOF as 35mm cinema and that special "cinema appeal" to it. FF video has extremely shallow DOF and its use is very limited, even this limited use can be done better with aps-c by opening aperture up! I think if you are looking for the new "video-king" you should look towards Sony (call me a77) ;) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 19, 2011, 01:04:56 pm
No,Theodoros, that wasn't the point of my post. But,

There is no doubt for me that Sony will be a major player, they understand what's going on better IMO. will see more and more Sony cameras on pro sets and less Canons. Probably even some micro 4/3 Panas also.
It's only speculation, but it would not surprise me.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 19, 2011, 01:34:23 pm
No,Theodoros, that wasn't the point of my post. But,

There is no doubt for me that Sony will be a major player, they understand what's going on better IMO. will see more and more Sony cameras on pro sets and less Canons. Probably even some micro 4/3 Panas also.
It's only speculation, but it would not surprise me.
Add Nikon there too, I mean this Sony/Nikon "love affair" of the recent years surely is for mutual interest! After all it was Nikon (with a Sony sensor) that made the first APS-c Dslr with video. By the way, do you remember the project that was suggested as "Nikon D800" by Tecnofotografia? (www.tecnofotografia.com) that camera was/is an Aps-c camera..., it can be seen in the last picture they published where one can see the mount without the lens (which was the 17-55). The project can be reviewed under "camara concepto" ("leer mas" button at the end will open all the pictures) in their site. I wonder who payed for that very expensive industrial project? ;) I just wonder... :) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.com
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 19, 2011, 04:35:51 pm
Canon and Nikon are loosing clients currently, and not a little according to the numbers I've seen just for Japan.

They have become conservative. Nikon produces the first video in a dslr and then is unable to measure the consequences. Canon revolutionned the world with the 5D2 almost without purpose and then is unable to push the concept further and insist in the same design.
But at the moment, competition is actually working on convergence, slowly for sure, but better.

Sony offers also sensors to Pentax, the same as the Nikons. But Sony has no clients in the pro zone and therefore has nothing to loose and all to win.

It seems to me that the only ones who are not sleeping are Sony, Panasonic and Red one at the moment. I think that the real revolution may come from motion devices actually. Instead of doing motion with still cameras, we'll do stills with motion cameras.

When I saw the 1D X vendors in Monaco talking about how great its going to be in a GranPrix I can't help thinking of the Leica S fake fashion shooting video. It smells that they need to sweep the dust in serious.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 20, 2011, 08:30:56 am
Canon and Nikon are loosing clients currently, and not a little according to the numbers I've seen just for Japan.
It seems to me that the only ones who are not sleeping are Sony, Panasonic and Red one at the moment. I think that the real revolution may come from motion devices actually. Instead of doing motion with still cameras, we'll do stills with motion cameras.
I agree on most of the above, where my opinion differentiates is that "instead of doing motion with Dslrs, we'll do stills with motion cams". I think it will vastly apply on the majority of the APS-c Dslrs and to an insignificant extend to FF Dslrs, due to the shallow DOF of the later..., I also think that there will be a minority of APS-c Dslrs designed with the stills as priority, these will be some cameras that the traditional Dslr manufacturers will use as a "first step" for the photographers that will eventually end up with FF cameras. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 20, 2011, 12:34:53 pm
My take as an amateur:  

Regarding ergonomics, Digital dSLRs are not really fun to use. They are big heavy beasts. It's even worse for medium format. That is why Leica is minting money  On the other hand the top pro dSLRs are now totally reliable and acceptably usable under any circumstances and surpass 35mm film by a lot in practice.

Regarding image quality: What comes out of Lightroom and ACR is really ugly, most of what Canon and Nikon spit out as JPGs is not so nice. You can fight it, but it requires a LOT of effort. The MF vendors provide ntegrated suites -Capture One and Phocus- which provide good converted files.

I don't like the pictures I take with my Nikon much anymore, I prefer those that come out of my iPhone. I'm not joking. On the other hand I've almost never seen the Nikon miss a shot.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: KevinA on October 20, 2011, 01:51:49 pm
One day Kevin...one day.... ;)

Yaya,
Then I get a job like the one this coming Monday, a night flight over London. So if I had my Phaseone I would still be reaching for the 35 mm gear for it's high iso. .... And last  Friday I was shooting with everything from 17mm to 350mm so again I would of been using the 35mm. I don't need half the stuff they put on DSLR's, in fact it gets in the way. The problem with MF for me is that it would only cover a portion of what I do and justifying the cost against that portion still does not make business sense...... but I would love to be using it. :-)
A M9 with a D3s sensor low light capability and that f0.95  would do a treat for me on Monday. As it is a Canon and borrowed Nikon with a bunch of gyro's will be the order of the day er I mean night.

Kevin.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Fritzer on October 20, 2011, 02:35:59 pm

-Why should we still have to put-up with designs that where made basically a century ago? when electronics gives almnost any kind of possibilities for designers to be creative to a point that wasn't thinkable before.

I kind of agree, but then again, what are you looking for in camera design ?
In those one hundred years, many designs have been developed and used .
Personally, I'm surprised life view and EVFs are not more advanced in still/hybrid cameras .

Quote
-why should we still have to stand things like matte-boxes and all the zacuto's artillery in 2011 that make looks the camera like a huge and hugly mecano?
-why this plague of micro fragile conectors in still camera devices?

Space requirements and laws of physics ?


Quote
-Why it still seems so painfull to have a device that works both for still and motion imagery so the investment is still doubled.
-Why we are still talking after all those years of softwares developpement about having to get a pentagon suite to color grade, and that the only exciting and "revolutiuonary" thing that appeared in the last decades was something called final cut pro x that is not ready yet and full of bugs.

No idea .. ;)

Quote
-why can't we zoom and focus any modern motion lens with our cell-phones? do timelapse with our cell-phones but yes, having some fancy gadgeteries like the electronic clap on the I.phone and those, for sure, come at the speed of light, like any useless thing.

Gadgets and (i)Apps hurt the development of proper software and accessories to a large degree, imho .
Creates a big gap between the usable, modular stuff you get for film (super expensive and for expert users) and quick & dirty, and proprietary, solutions .
It's the iPhone/iPad approach : simple sells, why try harder ?

Quote
-why can't we shoot 24 fps 12MP (and I'm not even talking about Raw) image sequence for more than 2 sec and are still stucked into ridiculous buffer stuff, space limitations, mess of more and more exotic codecs, menus more complicated that a 747 cockpit, still softwares that are just doing still and motion softwares that are doing still the painfull way, new formats or codecs like this Canon will have that nothing will read, as always, so we'll need to chase more third-party stuff, more devices, more micro program and latest versions so we buy.
-why do we still have to transcode in 2011?

-why...etc...

Because the reality, is instead of having simplified and unified stuff, it's always more and more and more things to add.

I think this industry, Canon included, deserves a real kick in the ass by a new player. And hope it will be some brand like Red One.

Why do I still carry chargers, cables and adapters that take up as much space as my laptop and small camera kit combined ?
Same thing .
As for Red - let me see if there's room for another set of cables, chargers, batteries .... ;)


Quote
Below: how many years separate those 4 cameras?

Why can't I buy an FF DSLR the size of a Nikon FM2, and increase functionality with moduls, like a battery grip sized thing improving performance and adding features ?
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 20, 2011, 02:37:10 pm

I don't like the pictures I take with my Nikon much anymore, I prefer those that come out of my iPhone. I'm not joking. On the other hand I've almost never seen the Nikon miss a shot.

Edmund

I asume that you are looking for a more spontanious experience and way of expression. The D3 is a beast for sports, low-light and the one with the bigger sensor, don't remember the label x, or s, almost an MF in a dslr package. But those are cameras made to be efficient under the vastest range of situations and have the widest range of possible optics, some of them extremes.

If you're paid to cover a sport or political event, you can't miss the shots. And sometimes it means to be able to have a printable result at 24000isos, an ultra reliable auto-focus.

In fact, just look at the social and wars reportage made with Leicas M and there is no doubt that those pictures are different, they smell different.

The irony is that many many people over the internet are amazed for ex by extreme low-light capabilities and most of them will never have the real need for it, but the Leica guy doesn't want that beautifull warm scene in low-light to appears like if it was in bright sunshine under the tropics with grain added in post...he-she wants the low-light scene to be what it is: low-light!

So really, when a camera claims usable low-light at 24000, it means clean look at 6400, but it doesn't mean good pics.

I'm also seeing the same, very "limited" gear tend to help producing better pics, because they force you to be where you want to be: on the command. 

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 20, 2011, 02:56:07 pm
I kind of agree, but then again, what are you looking for in camera design ?
In those one hundred years, many designs have been developed and used .
Personally, I'm surprised life view and EVFs are not more advanced in still/hybrid cameras .


But they where developped with and for film. Now we are free of that, the tech allows miniaturization, storage, usability etc etc...that where not even thinkable 15 years ago.

Look at the gh2 for ex. I was a big fan of the Canon 1DMK4 but when I got the gh2, it's almost 1/4 the size of the canon, and it's electronic is way more advanced. In 1/4 the size of a traditional camera, engineers are able to put amost any crazy electronic they could think of, and that's going to increase.
Imagine what they could, if they wanted, put into a size of an MF gear, wich I think is the perfect size for a combocam...we'd have proper conectors like in the Alexa instead of those 3' jacks and fragile hmi ports. Big, really big LV screen, rock solid that you coud orientate the way you want, in-board steady-cam, big storage, much more processors, in-board nd filters, a proper handle integrated in the design, free of this EVF but only a big sreen that would work like an i.pad, an integrated radio trigger (why not?, why having to put a device on the shoe? because there is a shoe...), inboard internet connection etc etc...the list is unlimited. And that's not 10 years tech ahead for the most part of it. The tendency is going that way hoppefully.

I think this camera industry needs a Steve Jobs, someone ready to break patterns and bring powerfull usable and well designed cameras. The tech is there, we just need a visionary or a company that has the b....cks to break what's there for century and really smell like an old scotish abandonned castle to be honest.

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 20, 2011, 04:05:15 pm
I asume that you are looking for a more spontanious experience and way of expression. The D3 is a beast for sports, low-light and the one with the bigger sensor, don't remember the label x, or s, almost an MF in a dslr package. But those are cameras made to be efficient under the vastest range of situations and have the widest range of possible optics, some of them extremes.


Fred,

I have that one, the x. Incredible detail.
The iPhone somehow has a warm, lived-in  look to its images.
I suspect that I also hold it fairly low (waist level) which tends to improve the look of images, maybe because it is close to what we remember of our world as children.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Gigi on October 20, 2011, 05:14:19 pm
On the other hand I've almost never seen the Nikon miss a shot.

Can you see a camera miss a shot? Now, that would be special. :)
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fotometria gr on October 20, 2011, 05:30:47 pm
Can you see a camera miss a shot? Now, that would be special. :)
I've seen a cell phone that missed a ...call (because of a shot) :D Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 21, 2011, 02:42:05 pm
I think this camera industry needs a Steve Jobs, someone ready to break patterns and bring powerfull usable and well designed cameras. The tech is there, we just need a visionary or a company that has the b....cks to break what's there for century and really smell like an old scotish abandonned castle to be honest.
I think that this will happen in cell-phone or cell-phone-like hardware. The competition is fierce, the manufacturers make really large number of units, and each new generation offers significant development. And the software/ui part can be changed/extended by 3rd parties.

"pro" photographers and "pro" photography manufacturers will be dragged along, kicking and screaming until they realize that cheap hardware actually makes it more fun and productive to do photography. Wasnt this (sort of) what happened when AF, zoom and other things we take for granted were introduced?

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Fritzer on October 22, 2011, 04:05:19 pm

Look at the gh2 for ex. I was a big fan of the Canon 1DMK4 but when I got the gh2, it's almost 1/4 the size of the canon, and it's electronic is way more advanced. In 1/4 the size of a traditional camera, engineers are able to put amost any crazy electronic they could think of, and that's going to increase.
Imagine what they could, if they wanted, put into a size of an MF gear, wich I think is the perfect size for a combocam  .......

And that's not 10 years tech ahead for the most part of it.

I agree with you for the most part, however : your dream camera - one I'd love to get - is likely to be way out of reach for the majority of pro beginners, and maybe of most working pros too . That's 100-200k for a complete system, I'd guess .
Also, hardly anyone would need it.
Why not simply take what exists a few steps further, with improved software and accessories and added features ?

Quote
I think this camera industry needs a Steve Jobs, someone ready to break patterns and bring powerfull usable and well designed cameras. The tech is there, we just need a visionary or a company that has the b....cks to break what's there for century and really smell like an old scotish abandonned castle to be honest.

Here I disagree; a Steve Jobs is the last thing I'm hoping for .
Proprietary software and hardware, closed systems , deliberately breaking compatibility, lowest common denominator tech, no user customization below the surface - smells old and dusty to me . ;)

I'd take a bunch of inspired engineers and cut out the middle management types, who loose it all in their meetings .
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Erick Boileau on October 22, 2011, 04:25:05 pm
Here I disagree; a Steve Jobs is the last thing I'm hoping for .
Proprietary software and hardware, closed systems , deliberately breaking compatibility, lowest common denominator tech, no user customization below the surface - smells old and dusty to me . ;)

I'd take a bunch of inspired engineers and cut out the middle management types, who loose it all in their meetings .
you find Bill Gates and Microsoft very open ?
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 22, 2011, 04:27:08 pm
We already have the camera Mac, or rather the Lisa: It's RED One.
Scarlet would be the Mac 512K.

Scarlet is defined as portable, modular, shoots Raw only, stills and video at 16mm quality, EVF. The ideal student camera and capable of launching a whole cottage industry of film-making similar to that of Mac desktop publishing. I think the 5DII is like the Apple II when it was running Visicalc: Irreplaceable when there was no competition but headed for the trashheap of history.

Edmund

I agree with you for the most part, however : your dream camera - one I'd love to get - is likely to be way out of reach for the majority of pro beginners, and maybe of most working pros too . That's 100-200k for a complete system, I'd guess .
Also, hardly anyone would need it.
Why not simply take what exists a few steps further, with improved software and accessories and added features ?

Here I disagree; a Steve Jobs is the last thing I'm hoping for .
Proprietary software and hardware, closed systems , deliberately breaking compatibility, lowest common denominator tech, no user customization below the surface - smells old and dusty to me . ;)

I'd take a bunch of inspired engineers and cut out the middle management types, who loose it all in their meetings .
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: stevesanacore on October 23, 2011, 03:57:25 am
snip

As we are in a MF forum, what all that has to do with MF ? well, it has to do in the sense that MF players are IMO in front of a delicate and critical choice today: or, keeping alive the tradition, what's already there, for a bunch of collectionists and a few high-end applications; or...changing their minds and start to get involved into convergence and different designs keeping modularity.

MF manufacturers can change everything is they would just work on a 645 CMOS sensor with real live view and low noise - at a competitive price point. I can understand good optics will always be costly - on the level of the Zeiss CP2 and Leica S2 lenses. But I do not understand why the MF bodies should cost so much. If the IQ160 or Hasselblad equivalent was $10k, I think we would see a landslide of photographers moving back to MF systems. Back in the old film days (70-80s) almost everyone I knew shot with Hasselblads, (along with many other systems of course), because they were the standard of the industry for advertising and weddings. The only reason that has changed is because of the cost is too high, and professionals just can't justify it. Sure there are many Phase One's and Hasse's being used, but I'll bet nothing like it used to be. Look how many people, (me included), are expecting a 36MP Canon body and are willing to pay at least $8k for it. I'll be they would sell more of those in the first week than Phase One or Hasse sell in a year or two. You can buy a Fiat 500 or Mini for less than a decent MF camera. Maybe someone can do the math from camera prices back in the 80's and see the relationship between a Nikon F5 body and a Hasselblad 500c/m and compare it to today?

It's too bad Jim Jannard is too busy with movie cameras to put his efforts into MF. An 80mp 645 CMOS sensor in a mirror-less camera body is all we need to get started.

IMO
 




Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Erick Boileau on October 23, 2011, 04:04:08 am
MF manufacturers can change everything is they would just work on a 645 CMOS sensor with real live view and low noise - at a competitive price point
a FF MF 40 or 50 mp   with CMOS and liveview (x 10) @ 10K will be a killer
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 23, 2011, 04:10:38 am
a FF MF 40 or 50 mp   with CMOS and liveview (x 10) @ 10K will be a killer

The question is whether the low volumes resulting from the niche market strategy of Phaseone generate enough business potential to give Dalsa the means to do serious technological investment.

As of now, from a macro economic standpoint, it seems fair to say that MFDB manufacturers serve the market poorly since they are unable/unwilling to provide solutions at a price point more than a few tenths of % of the potentially interested photographers can afford.

Having it heard from them, I know that Pentax sees the lack of live view on the 645D as a regrettable shortcoming. Going for a proven Kodak sensor for a first generation D camera was reasonable, but considering the amazingly positive reactions and business success of the 645D, I wouldn't be surprised if their next sensor were something new. Pure speculation on my part through.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Erick Boileau on October 23, 2011, 04:18:13 am
The question is whether the low volumes resulting from the niche market strategy of Phaseone generate enough business potential to give Dalsa the means to do serious technological investment.

As of now, from a macro economic standpoint, it seems fair to say that MFDB manufacturers serve the market poorly since they are unable/unwilling to provide solutions at a price point more than a few tenths of % of the photographers can afford.

Having it heard from them, I know that Pentax sees the lack of live view on the 645D as a regrettable shortcoming. Going for a proven Kodak sensor for a first generation D camera was reasonable, but considering the amazingly positive reactions and business success of the 645D, I wouldn't be surprised if their next sensor were something new. Pure speculation on my part through.

Cheers,
Bernard
yes a Pentax 645D + 70mm  cost 10.000 including tax, maybe a Kodak sensor is more expensive then a CMOS one, a CMOS MF will certainly come some day ... maybe a Canon
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 23, 2011, 07:32:32 am
The question is whether the low volumes resulting from the niche market strategy of Phaseone generate enough business potential to give Dalsa the means to do serious technological investment.

Exactly Bernard.

IMO, what is happening with MFD is that they are in a dramatical crossroad, and the choices they will make from now will have transcendental consequences.

1- We are seeing an exponential increment of the "low-cost" cameras performances, at least what we call the prosumer products. They have became so good that it's completly possible for a professional to work seriously with a minimum investment.

2- Habits have changed in all the chain. We are in an economical crisis, the middle class (where pro photographers are) is being pushed each time more and more towards poverty while the capital is concentrated in the hands of less and less people. Cost is not any more a weired fantasy but almost a necesity.
I remember how, not many years ago, we where all spending huge amount of money for any kind of irrelevant project. It was the time of abundance, rock-star photographers models and agencies that where acting like the Rolling Stones production.

Cost-effectiveness is the norm today, included for agencies. What MF are producing is the highest possible image quality at low-isos at the highest possible resolution. But they are not cost-effective. For some applications, MF qualities are indeed important but the range of their excelence is reducing more and more and for many pros, the justification for such an investment is questionned more than ever.

At the same time, the gap between what was the top equipment and the lower devices has been reduced. In other words, DSLRs are going faster and have increment their output quality dramatically.


3- Video has irrupted into many (not all, I know) photographers pro requirements. Not every body can afford a Red or an Alexa and even, not everybody can afford both a proper video camera and a proper high-end still camera. The necessity that the lens line is also adaptable to the video mount is also a big factor.
So, even if for the moment, convergence designs are far from being perfect, they are a rational choice for many on a budget (and many are on a budget now). I even know a recognized international photo-video grapher, with a long experience in motion, who's team works with Arri and now uses a GH2 even for serious projects, and he has the team and the prod for using whatever. Reason? he has more fun with the gh2. (ps: I also concur on that. Since I bought the GH2, I use it as much as I can, and it's more fun in use than the Canons). Those new generation cameras are really fun in use, but more importantly, very capable.

4- Softwares, specially the high-end ones in cine prod have never stopped to drastically cut their prices in the recent years. HD are cheap now, and softwares are following that tendency. Almost everybody has access now to really high-end workstation without breaking the bank account. Workstations that not a long time ago, where only seen in big production houses.

5- The increment of low-light performances has drastically changed the norms in terms of equipment required on set.

6- The eye education-perception, is changing. So as supports, like internet getting huge protagonism. People (ADs) are asking more and more for different requirements than the "best IQ possible" because they know that the message is the most important, and that this message is going to be displayed in a format that doesn't require 500000MP.


The pixel race as the holly grail is over. I think that we enter really into seriousness: the design and convergence time. Finally.

So, MF manufacturers will, or will not, embrasse those changes. It's up to them to decide which target they want to fullfill. (ps: and that will also be a Leica dilema IMO, not only MF)

What's left for them? IMO, 3 kind of clients:
- the wealphy amateur, ready to spend that money and get the satisfaction of its image excelence.
- Special apps like museums, repro, aerial etc...
- Artists who print big or really want the MF qualities in their imagery, and-or, are interested in the slower and more "religious" approach, using view cameras or directly MF bodies.

If they can live with that, I don't think that they need to change a lot the way they are doing. It just depends.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 23, 2011, 09:34:43 am
Fred -

 Nice analysis.
 But, do we really care? We as still photographers can now get all we need mostly from any consumer camera.
 Leaving us free to decide what we put in front of the camera.
 Maybe this forum is as obsolete as the MF dinosaurs.

Edmund



So, MF manufacturers will, or will not, embrasse those changes. It's up to them to decide which target they want to fullfill. (ps: and that will also be a Leica dilema IMO, not only MF)

What's left for them? IMO, 3 kind of clients:
- the wealphy amateur, ready to spend that money and get the satisfaction of its image excelence.
- Special apps like museums, repro, aerial etc...
- Artists who print big or really want the MF qualities in their imagery, and-or, are interested in the slower and more "religious" approach, using view cameras or directly MF bodies.

If they can live with that, I don't think that they need to change a lot the way they are doing. It just depends.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 23, 2011, 10:57:15 am

... Maybe this forum is as obsolete as the MF dinosaurs.

you are walking on a mined field Edmund...I hope you have a thick skin or missile shield.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 23, 2011, 11:26:43 am
you are walking on a mined field Edmund...I hope you have a thick skin or missile shield.

I can always say "excuse me, that was just my wallet talking" :)

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2011, 11:46:58 am
Hi,

I wouldn't mind to belong to two of the three kinds of clients...

Best regards
Erik


So, MF manufacturers will, or will not, embrasse those changes. It's up to them to decide which target they want to fullfill. (ps: and that will also be a Leica dilema IMO, not only MF)

What's left for them? IMO, 3 kind of clients:
- the wealphy amateur, ready to spend that money and get the satisfaction of its image excelence.
- Special apps like museums, repro, aerial etc...
- Artists who print big or really want the MF qualities in their imagery, and-or, are interested in the slower and more "religious" approach, using view cameras or directly MF bodies.

If they can live with that, I don't think that they need to change a lot the way they are doing. It just depends.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: MrSmith on October 23, 2011, 02:59:50 pm
The pixel race as the holly grail is over.

shame nobody thought to tell the sensor manufacturers.
all the while the design and manufacture of sensors is not in the hands of the camera designers photographers will have to put up camera's that are less then ideal.

maybe canon,fuji or pentax will change this.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 23, 2011, 03:04:31 pm
Hi,

It may just be that the sensor manufacturers do know what they are doing?

Best regards
Erik


shame nobody thought to tell the sensor manufacturers.
all the while the design and manufacture of sensors is not in the hands of the camera designers photographers will have to put up camera's that are less then ideal.

maybe canon,fuji or pentax will change this.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 23, 2011, 03:12:24 pm
Hi,

It may just be that the sensor manufacturers do know what they are doing?

Best regards
Erik



I'm sure the ones at Sony and Nikon know, and also the guys at Dalsa and Kodak who do the military sensor chips. I would be very surprised if either Kodak or Dalsa can be bothered to put a top engineering team to work on MF camera sensors and allow them to generate new designs FROM THE CELL UP; rather I think they have some team player repackage the leftovers using bits and pieces from other projects.

I mean, I don't wanna be rude, but the top guys get sent where the money is, and MF is not exactly a big application these days - the whole sensor market for MF is probably worth less than $ 5 Million a year, which translates into about a million dollars R&D, not a lot if you need to pay a ten-person team in Europe or the US.

For a new sensor design, I'd expect you'd need two cell designers, two IC layout integration guys to handle clocking, layout, pin driver amps, global control circuitry, all the stuff you need to set up the array and make it talk to the world,  some guy to do the color filters and microlenses and cover glass, a couple of people to make the dev electronics for physical prototypes and test gear, and of course some support infrastructure and technicians.  

A new cell design would probably be quite slow, because the geometry is crucial, you need a process simulator at geometric level that models the physics precisely, simulations would need validation by baking a prototype. So I don't think one could go from zero to full chip in less than a year.

Of course, if you employ existing cells and existing control schemes and peripheral circuirty, then you can probably do an initial design of a sensor chip in a couple of weeks, and finish the product in 3 or 4 months with little innovation but also few surprises. Unless a company is feeling philantropic it will probably choose this route, rolling off an MF chip when all the components have already been generated for a project that is heavily funded for R&D.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 23, 2011, 03:58:38 pm
Can someone tells me then, how Red One, wich is a zillion time a smaller company than Sony, Canon and co is the only one to currently produce an affordable raw video (there are others but more expensive), with a great or at least a good design, pro featured, top imagery etc etc...

Because if a bunch of folks at Red One are capable of doing what their are doing, there is then a simple conclusion: big manufacturers are fooling us.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Fritzer on October 23, 2011, 05:39:58 pm
Can someone tells me then, how Red One, wich is a zillion time a smaller company than Sony, Canon and co is the only one to currently produce an affordable raw video (there are others but more expensive), with a great or at least a good design, pro featured, top imagery etc etc...

Because if a bunch of folks at Red One are capable of doing what their are doing, there is then a simple conclusion: big manufacturers are fooling us.

Hold on a second : do you own a RED ?
How much is it for a complete system ?
It's easy to talk the talk when you don't have to put up your own money. ;)

As it was mentioned above, the Canon 5DII has somewhat revolutionized access to budget film, if not on purpose .

As for the MP race : I think it's alive and well, and rightly so .
I for one take high resolution at base ISO over high ISO quality any day; not that it's mutually exclusive, sensor design usually improves in all areas .
Each his own, but I actually have clients ask for more when I shoot 30MP - only magazines, though, who would have thought ...

I can't wait for the NEX-7; MFT I've never owned, but I just can't believe a GH2 will be even close to any NEX in terms of file quality, and my NEX 5 is about as low as I dare go.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: TMARK on October 24, 2011, 02:39:56 am
Fritzer said:

"Hold on a second : do you own a RED ?
How much is it for a complete system ?"

Yes, and about $80k, which includes lenses, Arri mattboxes, monitors, storage, supports blah blah blah.  That is set up for commercials, high end production.  You could probably get away with $30k for a bare bones kit.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 24, 2011, 04:18:02 am
Fred,

- Obviously Red exists (Our friend the Cooter says they sold at least half a billion dollars of gear to date, who am I to disagree). So your "if" question become a "why" question. RED were fast and the incumbents seem hobbled. I think RED gained 3-4 years just because of how they started.

- Red got underway fast because it was launched and funded by a billionaire, who recruited some top talent, and identified both the niche of digital pro film-making, and the enabling technology of recording wavelet compressed Raw.  Physically they needed to design a box with a hole. So they had none of the startup process inertia which a japanese firm has in setting up reviews for a totally new product.

- Once RED were set up they came fast out of the gate on development because they could pay cash for innovative R&D (the Mysterium sensor and the wavelet compression codecs) and camera prototypes. As I pointed out in a post above, an entirely new sensor design only costs around a million or two dollars, but  what you get is only as good as the guys you put on the project.

- The question of why big camera companies are not making similar products is a business case study. It's obvious that Sony and Canon and Nikon could make a RED lookalike in a year. I believe that camera company management everywhere are protecting the cash cows of existing TV camera ranges. Kodak couldn't move as a company from film to digital although thy invented a lot of digital imaging technology. IBM was incapable of capitalising on the PC technology which it launched.



Can someone tells me then, how Red One, wich is a zillion time a smaller company than Sony, Canon and co is the only one to currently produce an affordable raw video (there are others but more expensive), with a great or at least a good design, pro featured, top imagery etc etc...

Because if a bunch of folks at Red One are capable of doing what their are doing, there is then a simple conclusion: big manufacturers are fooling us.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 24, 2011, 05:00:18 am
The cost of a Red system is (without the robocoperies), on line with a high-end medium format system, wich considering the target and investment-return is to my eyes what I call "cheap", or at least reasonable.

We are talking in Spain about those numbers:

the MX is sold at 20.000

the Epic M complete: 58.000

Epic X brain: 35.000

Rear and slide modules: 1.500

the remote: 750

etc...


a 40 MPx Phase back: 17.000

the big boys backs are more than 40.000 (don't remember the exact number but it's somewhere there). Tell me about that!

and all that without the lenses also, without body, without anything.

In that context Red is cheap (or MFD are expensive) depends the point of view.

But, back on the robocoperies, that's also true and specially true with any dslr like the Canons: matte-boxes, microphones, monitors, storage, supports etc...

If you get that new Canon, it will be 7000 just the body, no raw video and obliged to get all the accessory saga we where talking about, plus, what will be that new codec?  Will Canon writte fast an AMA script so we can link native? that remains to be seen. Or are we going to be obliged to chase the version point___ of Premiere Pro or Avid, or even worse, a third-party little application created in a hurry that would do the job. Like if we didn't already have enough mess. The 12 fps I.S is already been done by the prosummer Sony and I'd like to see how many seconds it will handle that, and how many seconds it freezes the buffer when it's full. Then...  to be fair with Canon, the video bitrate announced is really good. The low-light will be very good, as expected, and I don't giive a damn if it's a 18MP or 25MP reso, it's more or less the same story really. The old Leica R 10MP digiback could still smokes some bigger sensors in print to date. Those reso are mostly marketing claims.

About the GH2 vs NEX _ ? ... I've tried the Nex, it clips way more the highlights than the Pana that already clip a lot, to me (maybe I didn't get well the user manual) and I'm absolutly unable to see the differences in footage in a blind test, except at higher isos where I found the sony a little more workable. I could work with both of those cameras. But I've already seen a GH2 on a big set manipulated by experienced videographers, never saw any NEX, so the Panasonic is probably not that bad...IMHO.

About the clients that ask for more than 30 MP ? Yes, some of you might experience that, but in my case, all I hear since about a year or 2 is "make it smaller". (even for printing output).

About Red, I don't own one at the moment (it's in my plans), but regularly edit R3D and it's one of the most friendly workflow I've ever seen. At least to my way of understanding what a good workflow should be. Raw video is great indeed. (without talking about the performance and qualities and flexibility that those deliver).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that R3D will be like a PS format, readable between generations, no? Because tomorrow will have an AVCHD # 4, 5 or 6...that nothing will read, as always.
And even in the case there where issues in the future, RCX will read-writte those for free on Mac or Windows.

I have 2 set-ups with the red workflow, both are rock solid and free of platform issues (wich is not the case in the Alexa because of ProRes). I use one kind of workflow using Avid Media Composer via AMA, and another one using Red-Cine X and Edius 6 in a dpx workflow. Then, send all that into Nuke. Absolutly no hassles.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 24, 2011, 07:48:27 am
shame nobody thought to tell the sensor manufacturers.
all the while the design and manufacture of sensors is not in the hands of the camera designers photographers will have to put up camera's that are less then ideal.

maybe canon,fuji or pentax will change this.

I guess the Nikon D3s never existed... :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 24, 2011, 09:54:54 am
Made by Nikon for themselves, and not by an MF company.
Not one of the bought-in leftovers which are fed to us by the MF houses.
I am sure that Dalsa and Kodak do very good reconnaissance sensors, though.
Has anyone noticed that Kodak had 35mm full frame before anyone else, back when they were in the photo business?

Edmund

I guess the Nikon D3s never existed... :-)

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 24, 2011, 07:13:27 pm
Made by Nikon for themselves, and not by an MF company.
Not one of the bought-in leftovers which are fed to us by the MF houses.
I am sure that Dalsa and Kodak do very good reconnaissance sensors, though.
Has anyone noticed that Kodak had 35mm full frame before anyone else, back when they were in the photo business?

I see. :)

I tend to be more and more application focused these days and had forgotten this was an MF thread. The artificial siloization of photography based on sensor size makes less and less sense to me.

But yes, I guess that this is still an MF silo and I should have guessed that this comment was about Kodak and Dalsa.

Perhaps Michael should just get rid of this and instead create a high image quality silo? :) When you think about it, the very structure of this forum is designed to support the idea that MF cameras really have a specificity to them, photography itself is less the focus that gear used to create it... per design.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 25, 2011, 04:10:37 am
I see. :)

I tend to be more and more application focused these days and had forgotten this was an MF thread. The artificial siloization of photography based on sensor size makes less and less sense to me.

But yes, I guess that this is still an MF silo and I should have guessed that this comment was about Kodak and Dalsa.

Perhaps Michael should just get rid of this and instead create a high image quality silo? :) When you think about it, the very structure of this forum is designed to support the idea that MF cameras really have a specificity to them, photography itself is less the focus that gear used to create it... per design.

Cheers,
Bernard


Well, in a way the concentration on gear frees us to talk about the other stuff by allusion.

Let's face it: eg. in fashion, there are photographers who are good at selling to the customer; there are photographers who are good at getting the project done, no hassle, without direction; there are those who are very good shooting exactly what the client wants, without ever intruding into the client's work process; there are those who are remarkable at imagining evocative settings, where there is nothing in the picture, but still a mood; there are those who are good at finding locations that are full of little details, and lighting them; there are those who are really good at working the model and getting an expression; there are those who the best models love to work with and the name of the model makes the shot; there are those who know how to make the clothes look more beautiful than the woman. There are many sorts of fashion photographers, but they all use cameras - and talking about cameras gives them an excuse to talk. And we haven't even tried to discuss landscape yet :)

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on October 25, 2011, 05:42:55 am
RED RAW is not the same thing as photography RAW files, not even close. They just call them 'RAW' (who can stop them?) but it's already compressed data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Compression_and_workflow

The closest codec to a still-camera RAW file is the new ARRIRAW (on the Alexa). It's not cheap. Red is not cheap either. But that's another story.

A gang of bright engineers with access to money can buy sensors from Kodak and build a MFDB, or even a 2K video camera. It's one thing to build it, but another to wade through the murky cesspool of patents, copyrights, licenses, legal fees, marketing, sales and customer service to form a profitable company that caters to professionals with the highest demands in quality (or at least they think they do!).

One of the strangest things I've come across is the fact that most moviegoers have been watching films in cinemas (in 30-100 feet screens) for a 100 years at 1K resolution (or less). Nobody has ever complained of the lack of sharpness or the low resolution. Most images are viewed on newspapers, billboards or the internet, where resolution, color and detail are at their lowest.

This is the market Sony, Kodak and Canon cater to, I suppose. What the niche must realize (which I'm sure they do) is that if they can buy a 50MP sensor from Kodak for $3,500 it's because Kodak sells millions of smaller chips to mass camera manufacturers. I can't blame anybody for it, except myself maybe for always wanting more.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 25, 2011, 06:48:37 am
At the rate we're going, startup innovation is going to be a thing of the past.

I don't think it's possible to market *any* piece of software or hardware in the US anymore without infringing on some patent. Whether that patent would stand up to scrutiny or be invalidated is a moot point, because you couldn't afford the legal fees anyway, unless you happen to have big pockets like Red's founder.

Edmund





A gang of bright engineers with access to money can buy sensors from Kodak and build a MFDB, or even a 2K video camera. It's one thing to build it, but another to wade through the murky cesspool of patents, copyrights, licenses, legal fees, marketing, sales and customer service to form a profitable company that caters to professionals with the highest demands in quality (or at least they think they do!).

Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: fredjeang on October 25, 2011, 07:44:43 am
RED RAW is not the same thing as photography RAW files, not even close. They just call them 'RAW' (who can stop them?) but it's already compressed data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Compression_and_workflow

The closest codec to a still-camera RAW file is the new ARRIRAW (on the Alexa). It's not cheap. Red is not cheap either. But that's another story.

A gang of bright engineers with access to money can buy sensors from Kodak and build a MFDB, or even a 2K video camera. It's one thing to build it, but another to wade through the murky cesspool of patents, copyrights, licenses, legal fees, marketing, sales and customer service to form a profitable company that caters to professionals with the highest demands in quality (or at least they think they do!).

One of the strangest things I've come across is the fact that most moviegoers have been watching films in cinemas (in 30-100 feet screens) for a 100 years at 1K resolution (or less). Nobody has ever complained of the lack of sharpness or the low resolution. Most images are viewed on newspapers, billboards or the internet, where resolution, color and detail are at their lowest.

This is the market Sony, Kodak and Canon cater to, I suppose. What the niche must realize (which I'm sure they do) is that if they can buy a 50MP sensor from Kodak for $3,500 it's because Kodak sells millions of smaller chips to mass camera manufacturers. I can't blame anybody for it, except myself maybe for always wanting more.


That's correct, Red Raw is in fact already compressed, slightly compressed. Should it be compare to Raw still? Yes to a large extend, no in the absolute. The workflow is very similar to any raw dev and when you correct, the footage stands up, and more importantly, it's way easier to get the same look (wb, expo etc...) when multiple cameras are involved, because that is a real mess. There are not 2 canons who shoot the same! Always differences.

Arriraw is almost not used. I don't know one Alexa prod that shoots Arriraw, very few do because they are so happy with the 444 prores that they don't consider the extra cost a necessity, and, as you wisedly point, we are watching movies for decades in a lower reso and nobody complains. Totally agree.

In fact, and I know some differs on that, the only good point of having a lot of reso is when you downsample, it looks really great. For ex, a full HD downsampled to 720 looks generally better than a 720 native.

I'm aware that this statement is very discussed, but I find the differences visible on screen.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 25, 2011, 08:05:51 am
At the rate we're going, startup innovation is going to be a thing of the past.

I don't think it's possible to market *any* piece of software or hardware in the US anymore without infringing on some patent. Whether that patent would stand up to scrutiny or be invalidated is a moot point, because you couldn't afford the legal fees anyway, unless you happen to have big pockets like Red's founder.

Very true, IP protection has been turned around and is now another entry barrier created by multi-billion US$ corporations.

I do understand the willingness to protect the IP that genuinely created for a really product developement purpose and as a means to protect they creations from competitors with low morale, but the massive buy over of IP we are seeing today and the cost of litigation is all too favorable to existing businesses and does clearly endanger genuine innovation.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Radu Arama on October 25, 2011, 01:23:30 pm
I'm sure the ones at Sony and Nikon know, and also the guys at Dalsa and Kodak who do the military sensor chips. I would be very surprised if either Kodak or Dalsa can be bothered to put a top engineering team to work on MF camera sensors and allow them to generate new designs FROM THE CELL UP; rather I think they have some team player repackage the leftovers using bits and pieces from other projects.

I mean, I don't wanna be rude, but the top guys get sent where the money is, and MF is not exactly a big application these days - the whole sensor market for MF is probably worth less than $ 5 Million a year, which translates into about a million dollars R&D, not a lot if you need to pay a ten-person team in Europe or the US.

For a new sensor design, I'd expect you'd need two cell designers, two IC layout integration guys to handle clocking, layout, pin driver amps, global control circuitry, all the stuff you need to set up the array and make it talk to the world,  some guy to do the color filters and microlenses and cover glass, a couple of people to make the dev electronics for physical prototypes and test gear, and of course some support infrastructure and technicians.  

A new cell design would probably be quite slow, because the geometry is crucial, you need a process simulator at geometric level that models the physics precisely, simulations would need validation by baking a prototype. So I don't think one could go from zero to full chip in less than a year.

Of course, if you employ existing cells and existing control schemes and peripheral circuirty, then you can probably do an initial design of a sensor chip in a couple of weeks, and finish the product in 3 or 4 months with little innovation but also few surprises. Unless a company is feeling philantropic it will probably choose this route, rolling off an MF chip when all the components have already been generated for a project that is heavily funded for R&D.

Edmund


Your assessment is most likely correct (I am not qualify to judge and you are so I trust your opinion) but this was valid before Pentax got into game. Don't forget that Pentax makes the 645D from January 2010 in at very least 500 units per month (with strong suggestions that they upped the production to 700 after they failed to meet demand in Japan last year). Even more important those at least 6000 sensors per year are identical rather than various dimension and cell size (and even different manufacturers in Hasselblad case). Until 645D will be discontinued is possible they would of bought close to 15K sensors from Kodak.

IMO Pentax with its Japanese strong connections is in pole position to order two CMOS sensors (most likely to Sony) based on the same cell size and with 33x44 mm and close to full 645 size (since they made even the huge 25 mm for the whole 645 film size circle). In the 2012 they will already have 3 new digital lenses on the market (55, 25, the new portrait one), tethering application and lots of FA 645 lenses in production. I see them passing 1000 units per month with two models that means 24K sensors in two year's time. Even at a modest combined price of 700 USD per sensor (taking into consideration that naturally the larger size will be made in smaller numbers) I think a 16.8M USD deal is nothing to be ignored by Sony or other Japanese CMOS company.

My money is on a 6 micron cell with a 40 Mp 33x44 mm variant and a close to 80 Mp 5x(x)4x mm Sony made sensor and if not at CP+ early 2012 I think they will announce it at latest at Photokina in September 2012. It makes sense and Pentax has the money, connections and the will power to be the first MF manufacture with such a sensor.

Radu
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 25, 2011, 04:59:29 pm
Your assessment is most likely correct (I am not qualify to judge and you are so I trust your opinion) but this was valid before Pentax got into game. Don't forget that Pentax makes the 645D from January 2010 in at very least 500 units per month (with strong suggestions that they upped the production to 700 after they failed to meet demand in Japan last year). Even more important those at least 6000 sensors per year are identical rather than various dimension and cell size (and even different manufacturers in Hasselblad case). Until 645D will be discontinued is possible they would of bought close to 15K sensors from Kodak.

IMO Pentax with its Japanese strong connections is in pole position to order two CMOS sensors (most likely to Sony) based on the same cell size and with 33x44 mm and close to full 645 size (since they made even the huge 25 mm for the whole 645 film size circle). In the 2012 they will already have 3 new digital lenses on the market (55, 25, the new portrait one), tethering application and lots of FA 645 lenses in production. I see them passing 1000 units per month with two models that means 24K sensors in two year's time. Even at a modest combined price of 700 USD per sensor (taking into consideration that naturally the larger size will be made in smaller numbers) I think a 16.8M USD deal is nothing to be ignored by Sony or other Japanese CMOS company.

My money is on a 6 micron cell with a 40 Mp 33x44 mm variant and a close to 80 Mp 5x(x)4x mm Sony made sensor and if not at CP+ early 2012 I think they will announce it at latest at Photokina in September 2012. It makes sense and Pentax has the money, connections and the will power to be the first MF manufacture with such a sensor.

Radu

I have no reason to doubt your marketing numbers, and Sony could of course just recycle an existing cell design into a large sensor, thereby giving Pentax what they need. Whether Sony would be happy creating themselves a competitor for their own flagship 35mm full frame is probably the main question to decide whether this happens.

However, Pentax could also commission a sensor from Samsung; I think this is a more probable resolution.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 25, 2011, 06:56:58 pm
Hi,

Sony already makes CMOS sensors for the competition, namely Nikon (D3X, D300, D7000) and Pentax K5. Very much possible that customer devices are different from Sony devices, Nikon is said to have tweaks and at least the D3X is much better in some areas then the Sony Alpha 900, which is using pretty much the same sensor.

If Sony would develop a larger sensor is another question, but I guess it is more about economics than policy.

Best regards
Erik


I have no reason to doubt your marketing numbers, and Sony could of course just recycle an existing cell design into a large sensor, thereby giving Pentax what they need. Whether Sony would be happy creating themselves a competitor for their own flagship 35mm full frame is probably the main question to decide whether this happens.

However, Pentax could also commission a sensor from Samsung; I think this is a more probable resolution.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 25, 2011, 08:10:21 pm
IMO Pentax with its Japanese strong connections is in pole position to order two CMOS sensors (most likely to Sony) based on the same cell size and with 33x44 mm and close to full 645 size (since they made even the huge 25 mm for the whole 645 film size circle). In the 2012 they will already have 3 new digital lenses on the market (55, 25, the new portrait one), tethering application and lots of FA 645 lenses in production. I see them passing 1000 units per month with two models that means 24K sensors in two year's time. Even at a modest combined price of 700 USD per sensor (taking into consideration that naturally the larger size will be made in smaller numbers) I think a 16.8M USD deal is nothing to be ignored by Sony or other Japanese CMOS company.

Hum... it really depends whether their current equipment enables them to manufacture such large sensors. If they don't, then the cost of machines alone would eat up a significant part of the margin.

I would love this to happen though.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: yaya on October 26, 2011, 01:38:04 am
Hum... it really depends whether their current equipment enables them to manufacture such large sensors. If they don't, then the cost of machines alone would eat up a significant part of the margin.

I would love this to happen though.

Cheers,
Bernard


Exactly, plus unless they've cracked the low yield issue, the cost per sensor (larger than 24x36) is going to be very high....possibly to the point of not being profitable...and nobody makes camera for charity...
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 26, 2011, 04:25:29 am
Hum... it really depends whether their current equipment enables them to manufacture such large sensors. If they don't, then the cost of machines alone would eat up a significant part of the margin.

I would love this to happen though.

Cheers,
Bernard



Samsung wouldn't have to do anything special to manufacture; the existing MF designs are rolled out on standard fabs, I believe.
Fullframe 35 may be different in some cases, because Canon and Sony may be using their own fabs, and even tweaked processes.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 26, 2011, 04:38:31 am
Exactly, plus unless they've cracked the low yield issue, the cost per sensor (larger than 24x36) is going to be very high....possibly to the point of not being profitable...and nobody makes camera for charity...

Yair,

 The yield can be approximated by a mathematical curve which depends on process parameters, quality of the design, and device surface area.
 http://www.siliconfareast.com/test-yield-models.htm
 As a results one can infer that if Samsung can already produce APS with the same yields as everybody else, then they have similar parameters as everyone else in the yield curve, and thus when they try a large device (MF) they will again get roughly the same (lower) yield as everyone else. This quick answer was no good when people were getting 1% yields or something and MF sensors cost a fortune, but now we are in calm waters, it may serve.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Radu Arama on October 26, 2011, 05:35:09 am
I have no reason to doubt your marketing numbers, and Sony could of course just recycle an existing cell design into a large sensor, thereby giving Pentax what they need. Whether Sony would be happy creating themselves a competitor for their own flagship 35mm full frame is probably the main question to decide whether this happens.

However, Pentax could also commission a sensor from Samsung; I think this is a more probable resolution.

Edmund

Hello Edmund,

Of course Samsung could do such a sensor as well but I guess Japanese companies buy foreign at last resort. Besides, Pentax is (except for the current Kodak KAF40000) an all Sony customer from the humble Q to every single dslr since K-7 (2009) and that means hundreds of thousands APS-C sensors per year (plus they received the 16,2 Mp sensor at the same time as Nikon so they must have some respect fron Sony's part). IMO it makes sense for Sony to cater to their needs and not let another (Japanese or foreign) company get on the line. It is pretty clear that eventually larger than 36x24 mm CMOS sensors will appear so for me it's logical that one brand must take the initiative.

Regarding the competition with Sony's FF cameras all signs are that Sony's sensor division is pretty much independent and has the confessed ambition to be number one in CMOS sensors. I think they could even want to do such large sensors for bragging rights. ;)

Regards,
Radu
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 26, 2011, 05:51:53 am
Hello Edmund,

Of course Samsung could do such a sensor as well but I guess Japanese companies buy foreign at last resort. Besides, Pentax is (except for the current Kodak KAF40000) an all Sony customer from the humble Q to every single dslr since K-7 (2009) and that means hundreds of thousands APS-C sensors per year (plus they received the 16,2 Mp sensor at the same time as Nikon so they must have some respect fron Sony's part). IMO it makes sense for Sony to cater to their needs and not let another (Japanese or foreign) company get on the line. It is pretty clear that eventually larger than 36x24 mm CMOS sensors will appear so for me it's logical that one brand must take the initiative.

Regarding the competition with Sony's FF cameras all signs are that Sony's sensor division is pretty much independent and has the confessed ambition to be number one in CMOS sensors. I think they could even want to do such large sensors for bragging rights. ;)

Regards,
Radu

Radu,

 I would agree with you; however there is one japanese company with the technology and a historical interest in MF namely Fuji; if a Japanese company ends up fabricating MF chips and relaunching MF domestically, I would expect it to be them, with a view to giving their captive marriage photography business a boost.

Edmund
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Radu Arama on October 26, 2011, 05:55:57 am
Hum... it really depends whether their current equipment enables them to manufacture such large sensors. If they don't, then the cost of machines alone would eat up a significant part of the margin.

I would love this to happen though.

Cheers,
Bernard


Hi Bernard!

I don't expect a possible "close to 645 film sized sensor" Pentax camera to cost 10K USD so "margin" is an unknown variable here (but even if the sensor is to cost . If such a camera will come I expect it to cost at least 1.5M Yen (almost 20K USD) but if Pentax could do at least:

- reliable tethering (this is work in progress)
- modern live view
- maybe some form of movie mode  ;D
- make available worldwide all the FA 645 lens range (also on the way to be realized at least in Europe many lenses are in stock and more exotic ones are available to order)
- make available worldwide the new D FA 25 and the new D FA fast portrait lens (maybe with leaf shutter)  ;)
- organize a more convincing support network in Europe and North America

I think they would have great chances to sell such a camera with a proportional success compared with 645D did but in the higher end class.

Regards,
Radu

P.S. I know that you will watch closely the next CP+ in less than 5 months, there could be lots of answers on what Ricoh thinks about Pentax MF range.
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: Radu Arama on October 26, 2011, 06:10:43 am
Radu,

 I would agree with you; however there is one japanese company with the technology and a historical interest in MF namely Fuji; if a Japanese company ends up fabricating MF chips and relaunching MF domestically, I would expect it to be them, with a view to giving their captive marriage photography business a boost.

Edmund

Edmund,

IMO Fuji has the same disadvantage as the rest (H, P1) vs. Pentax: they simply can't offset the cost of electronics - parts and R&D - (and most of the software) to hundreds of thousands of dslrs per year. And in the long term I believe that Pentax will be able to update more frequently the electronics from the same reason.

Radu
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 26, 2011, 01:09:21 pm
Yair,

 The yield can be approximated by a mathematical curve which depends on process parameters, quality of the design, and device surface area.
 http://www.siliconfareast.com/test-yield-models.htm
 As a results one can infer that if Samsung can already produce APS with the same yields as everybody else, then they have similar parameters as everyone else in the yield curve, and thus when they try a large device (MF) they will again get roughly the same (lower) yield as everyone else. This quick answer was no good when people were getting 1% yields or something and MF sensors cost a fortune, but now we are in calm waters, it may serve.

Edmund
When a sensor is defective, does this mean that it is "dead", that one column/row is dead, or that a single sensel is dead? Does it mean that the sensor cannot be "cut" into one or more smaller sensor? Generally, my question is if the methology and formulas for baking low-redundancy cpu logic can be transferred directly into imaging sensors.

I imagine that as resolution increases, the practical obstacle of interpolating one sensel or one row of pixels is less apparent.

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 26, 2011, 01:58:16 pm
Hi,

Michael Reichmann had a discussion with Phase One engineers on that issue. I got the impression that it was quite frequent for a complete column of cells on the sensor to fail, but that would be taken care of by camera electronics. I got the impression that sensor cost was about half of the cost for the back and that sensor failure rate was about 25%.

The interview was on one of the old LLVJ DVDs.

Best regards
Erik


When a sensor is defective, does this mean that it is "dead", that one column/row is dead, or that a single sensel is dead? Does it mean that the sensor cannot be "cut" into one or more smaller sensor? Generally, my question is if the methology and formulas for baking low-redundancy cpu logic can be transferred directly into imaging sensors.

I imagine that as resolution increases, the practical obstacle of interpolating one sensel or one row of pixels is less apparent.

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: eronald on October 26, 2011, 02:41:36 pm
Those interviews are very old. My guess is a 36x48 sensor *now* costs substantially less than $500, whatever the number of pixels.

Hasselblad could probably sell an entry level body for less than $6000, and I'd be very surprised if at year's end they didn't do exactly that.

Edmund

Hi,

Michael Reichmann had a discussion with Phase One engineers on that issue. I got the impression that it was quite frequent for a complete column of cells on the sensor to fail, but that would be taken care of by camera electronics. I got the impression that sensor cost was about half of the cost for the back and that sensor failure rate was about 25%.

The interview was on one of the old LLVJ DVDs.

Best regards
Erik


Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 26, 2011, 02:49:54 pm
Those interviews are very old. My guess is a 36x48 sensor *now* costs substantially less than $500, whatever the number of pixels.

Hasselblad could probably sell an entry level body for less than $6000, and I'd be very surprised if at year's end they didn't do exactly that.

Edmund

Because of competition from Pentax? Nikon/Canon?

Have anyone ever looked into the defects in cameras out there? Could it be that the price-cutting MF cameras use the sensors that have been rejected for the pricier ones? (rather use a sensor in a less critical camera than throwing it in the bin, just like some LCD tvs have more defect pixel tolerance than others).

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: yaya on October 26, 2011, 03:17:48 pm
Because of competition from Pentax? Nikon/Canon?

Have anyone ever looked into the defects in cameras out there? Could it be that the price-cutting MF cameras use the sensors that have been rejected for the pricier ones? (rather use a sensor in a less critical camera than throwing it in the bin, just like some LCD tvs have more defect pixel tolerance than others).

-h

You can't take a "defective" 50MP 49x37mm sensor and put it in a price cutting 40MP 44x33mm camera...it just doesn't work like that

In general it is easier to achieve higher yields with CCD chips than with CMOS chips (that are suitable for stills photography). This is only One of the reason why we do not see larger-than-35mm FF CMOS sensors

(probably worth a reminder here of who made the first FF 35mm CMOS sensor)

Yair
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: hjulenissen on October 26, 2011, 04:44:16 pm
Higher yields of CCDs at lower volumes and higher prices isn't what the market wants though. I want lower priced, higher volume CMOS but with the option of larger physical size and higher MP that fulfill the original master designs of 6x6 and 6x7 cameras, even 4x5 or higher. I simply don't want an overpriced "high yield", low volume, high price digital back that won't go larger than 645. Not sure why that destiny is so oblivious to the medium format digital manufacturers.
I want a Ferrari, but probably will never have one :-)

The fact that 4x5 digital sensors are nowhere to be found in regular photography suggests to me that they are/would be difficult and expensive to produce compared to the perceived benefit (sellability) they would have over FF and MF sensors. If there are 5 manufacturers easily could make a really large digital sensor that was suitable for a $4000 camera that would blow FF and MF away in terms of quality and enough buyers out there appreiciated that quality high enough to pay that money, surely we would have seen one?

I think that the way digital sensors scale in terms of quality/size/price is very different from how film scaled. Applying old-world norms may not make much sense if you want to maximize "IQ" per dollar.

-h
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: yaya on October 26, 2011, 04:54:38 pm
I want lower priced, higher volume CMOS but with the option of larger physical size and higher MP that fulfill the original master designs of 6x6 and 6x7 cameras, even 4x5 or higher.

That's the challenge right there....
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ced on October 27, 2011, 05:00:32 am
I think that after 20+ years the sensor technology, other than getting larger have not really advanced too much.
I would have imagined that by now with the possibilities that we have of high resolution masking techniques they could produce sensors that would eliminate moire by building some random patterned array with irregular shaped sensels... :-\
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: ondebanks on October 27, 2011, 12:56:31 pm
I'm sure the ones at Sony and Nikon know, and also the guys at Dalsa and Kodak who do the military sensor chips.

That's the bit that puzzles me. If the entire MF digital world is built around piggybacking on Kodak and Dalsa's large designed-for-military sensors, why aren't they CMOS yet? Who needs low light sensing more than the military? Who needs fast frame rates (live view, video) more than the military? Large CCDs just can't cover those applications, but CMOS can, so why would the military not insist on CMOS?

Ray
Title: Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
Post by: uaiomex on October 27, 2011, 09:15:06 pm
I've said before in another photo forum. "24X36 is the holy grail of digital photography".
Everything goes perfectly logical with sensors up to this size. Suddenly, just a few millimeters above, things become strangely more complicated, extremely expensive and reliability drops significantly. Why? It totally beats me. I ended up taking this true as one more of those difficult to believe, strange, awkward or unpleasant things of life that people learn to accept as dogmas, because no matter how you reason it, the math doesn't add up.
Once I came to this personal conclusion about FF, my lust for DMF terminated. That's was a couple of years ago and made a happier photographer after I started on concentrating my efforts on building a yet better and stronger system for it.
I couldn't be happier. I'm sure that with the exception of those pixel-peepers that inhabit the medium format forums of the world, the IQ from current FF cameras is found amazing. Day-in and day-out. Everyday. No issues, just beautiful pictures. 
Eduardo


 

The MFDB companies are simply protecting their interest and and have no interest in actually selling what ALL medium format shooters past and present want, more reasonable priced backs/sensors that actually accomplish more. And since hobbyists with the cash seem to make the over 51% of the buyers now, what pros want or need is taken less and less into consideration. The technology is simply now too expensive for how slow the improvements are from model to model every few years. And honestly the hassle factor makes them even more overpriced. If I can have a $2500 5DII which has NEVER had a single issue EVER in 50K-100K exposures, you wonder what the hell are MFDB makers, well making? My experience with digital backs was averaging an issue maybe every 500 frames, didn't matter what camera body or lens, or temperature, or software, or cable. Nothing but general annoyance with using medium format digital. Funny my Bronica ETRSi was hassle free, Rollei 6001 bodies, Mamiya 645 AFD and RZ's all hassle free with film. My personal user error with film was a whopping 2 times in the last 17 years. Find someone who doesn't have 2 issues a week or more with the back, software, cables, connections and more with MFDBs.