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Author Topic: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute  (Read 64219 times)

fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2011, 09:56:38 am »

Hum... I am not sure what Fuji/Hassy would be able to bring to FF DSLRs that Canon/Sony/Nikon are not already providing with extremely high levels of performance and sophistication.

I am also not sure what the problem is with current DSLRs. Neither in absolute performance nor in relative performance when compared to the actual needs of most photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard

1. Competition 2. "Most photographers" is related to industry but is irrelevant to "photography". There are many problems with current DSLRs that have to advance just to catch up with where IQ was before the digital "parade", DR and "sence" of film being two of the most important! Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2011, 10:05:38 am »

Hi Bernard,

You certainly claim that Nikon D3X is better than the rest? So Canon and Sony needs to catch up? Sony on noise and DR and Canon on read noise?

One area Nikon needs to step up on is affordable 20+ MP. The D3X is awfully expensive compared to Sony Alpha 900 and Canon 5DII. A Nikon D800 with 36 MPixels is rumored to be around soon, and it will almost certainly outperform both D3X and D700, except possibly at high ISO. And the market will absolutely accept 36 MP, as long as the camera does deliver.

Best regards
Erik



No Nikon of 36mpx is going to be announced and this is because it wouldn't outperform either the D3X or the D700. Of course nobody needs A 20+ mpx DSLR, why would he? To print larger than 100x150cm that a D700 can do now? Regards,Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2011, 10:10:43 am »

I think I'm going to create a camera that doesn't take any actual photos but rather just creates a bunch of scientific data and saves it as a text file, alternatively a bunch of graphical charts for people to interpret to death. Looking at the demographic of internet forums and this one in particular there seems to be an untapped market!  ;D


Do you sell shares in advance?  :) I think I'll buy some.... ;D Regards,Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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feppe

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2011, 10:12:19 am »

No Nikon of 36mpx is going to be announced and this is because it wouldn't outperform either the D3X or the D700. Of course nobody needs A 20+ mpx DSLR, why would he? To print larger than 100x150cm that a D700 can do now? Regards,Theodoros.

Your explanations should not be any clear-cut. Although it is a great tool, Google Translate is not accurate enough forum for the translation of the scriptures.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2011, 10:14:00 am »

Hi,

You have that now. It's called digital camera. Takes binary digits and puts them into a raw file. Some cameras also apply Buford matrix and discrete cosine transfer to produce JPEG images.

Best regards
Erik
I think I'm going to create a camera that doesn't take any actual photos but rather just creates a bunch of scientific data and saves it as a text file, alternatively a bunch of graphical charts for people to interpret to death. Looking at the demographic of internet forums and this one in particular there seems to be an untapped market!  ;D


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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2011, 10:19:44 am »

They're not new and shiny any more.  A new camera with additional features will give an early-adopter a leg up on the competition, until the competition buys the same camera.  Better IMHO to develop skills than spend on a new toy, the competition can't duplicate the photographer's brain and eye.  The disadvantage of this approach is that it can't be plotted and posted on an internet forum so nothing can be proven.
IMO the distance to be covered between now and a really good DSLR, is the same from a 2000 DSLR till now! Of course there will be people that will be more satisfied than before as tech advances and of course the percentage of completely satisfied customers will be higher all the time, but until the remaining drawbacks of digital to where film was have been reached, I will stay with the unsatisfied ones. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2011, 10:26:47 am »

I'd like a small DSLR, about the same size as my old Nikon FM, with a full-frame sensor. No bells & whistles, I don't need/want HD video, I don't even need lots of fancy metering options & auto-exposure settings, auto-focus and the like. In fact, a digital FM would do just fine.
Shouldn't the sensor perform like your film did though? You may have notice that in these days who ever speaks about a DSLR improvement, he means the light sensitive surface, ....ie ....the film! Isn't this odd? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2011, 10:28:37 am »

 
Your explanations should not be any clear-cut. Although it is a great tool, Google Translate is not accurate enough forum for the translation of the scriptures.
??? I hope sometime you'll make sense to ...your self! Sorry ....if Google mistranslated.  8) (Without) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:53:14 am by fotometria gr »
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telyt

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2011, 12:35:49 pm »

Shouldn't the sensor perform like your film did though? You may have notice that in these days who ever speaks about a DSLR improvement, he means the light sensitive surface, ....ie ....the film! Isn't this odd? Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

No thank you.  My Leica DMR left film in the dust six years ago.
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larkis

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2011, 01:06:15 pm »


Fourth, make all LCD's high def, articulating and touch screen.  Hasn't anyone in the camera world ever held an I-phone?   Also make it easy to add another screen or two or three.   You can't have enough viewing options. 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but have you tried using a touch screen in sub zero temperatures or in a snow storm ? Pro gear tends to be less featured but more reliable and there is nothing worse than fun techno gizmo's braking on you when you are in extreme conditions.

Tenth and the most important . . . software.    Whoever writes imaging software must loathe photographers and image makers.   Why is it lightroom is 100% different interface than photoshop, C-1 different than lightroom and when you get into motion, Nuke, Color, Di-Vinci (there is a long list) works with nodes and every button is in a different place.  That would be fine except 95% of the buttons and commands do the same thing so why make them a 100% different function . . . and nodes, I want to meet the person that thought that up, because it's the craziest thing I've ever used.

I loathe learning new software and before somebody says you can't do motion with still software or your can't do stills with motion software that's bull.  CS5 Extended will do motion (though it's a pain), Nuke will do resolution free stills (though it's a pain to learn), so why it takes 4 software suites just to color imagery makes no sense to me.


Software is many things to many different people. It generally takes a few tools in any of the applications out there to color imagery unless you know one tool in 4 different applications. I do see that often, being a nuke user myself for my day job I have met people who will get a crack of it just to use one tool that makes a certain process easy, then they will jump to after effects to do something else that is easy there and keep switching around. Nodal applications are designed for collaborative workflows and easier hand off between artists. Getting a photoshop or after effects file an artist has worked on for days can be daunting because there is no easy way to visualize what is actually going on in the file if it has a bunch of layers, expressions and precomps. Working with nodes allows various people to work on different parts of the tree and visualize the structure of a project in a map like view. Yes, for some processes it's overkill but forcing everyone to work one way would be silly. Choice is a good thing. Lightroom is very focused to the task at hand and makes total sense. As soon as you try to do more to the image (like do all of the color grading operations it has on a masked area) it starts to fall apart and photoshop becomes more useful. A lot of applications come from a different heritage than photography and make total sense for their original use.

feppe

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2011, 01:14:26 pm »

 ??? I hope sometime you'll make sense to ...your self! Sorry ....if Google mistranslated.  8) (Without) Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr

It was just a demonstration that translating from Finnish to English doesn't always (or even most of the time) produce comprehensible content - and it's often the same case with translating from Greek to English.

fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2011, 01:14:41 pm »

No thank you.  My Leica DMR left film in the dust six years ago.
Good for you, ...keep it in dust for the next of your life if you wish so! My Leica R don't have a DMR, I take that FF Canon with it (with the adapter permanently fit on it), for when I judge DR as modest enough to shoot digital. Cheers.  8)  Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2011, 01:18:09 pm »

It was just a demonstration that translating from Finnish to English doesn't always (or even most of the time) produce comprehensible content - and it's often the same case with translating from Greek to English.
Here I ....Finnish!  ;D . Sorry if Google mistranslated once more... Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 01:21:55 pm by fotometria gr »
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2011, 05:31:36 pm »

Your explanations should not be any clear-cut. Although it is a great tool, Google Translate is not accurate enough forum for the translation of the scriptures.


Somone is being apocryptic, apocryphal or apocritic. Or something. Pass me the meaning no wait, pass me the salt.

Edmund
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2011, 07:09:35 pm »

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but have you tried using a touch screen in sub zero temperatures or in a snow storm ? Pro gear tends to be less featured but more reliable and there is nothing worse than fun techno gizmo's braking on you when you are in extreme conditions.


Software is many things to many different people. It generally takes a few tools in any of the applications out there to color imagery unless you know one tool in 4 different applications. I do see that often, being a nuke user myself for my day job I have met people who will get a crack of it just to use one tool that makes a certain process easy, then they will jump to after effects to do something else that is easy there and keep switching around. Nodal applications are designed for collaborative workflows and easier hand off between artists. Getting a photoshop or after effects file an artist has worked on for days can be daunting because there is no easy way to visualize what is actually going on in the file if it has a bunch of layers, expressions and precomps. Working with nodes allows various people to work on different parts of the tree and visualize the structure of a project in a map like view. Yes, for some processes it's overkill but forcing everyone to work one way would be silly. Choice is a good thing. Lightroom is very focused to the task at hand and makes total sense. As soon as you try to do more to the image (like do all of the color grading operations it has on a masked area) it starts to fall apart and photoshop becomes more useful. A lot of applications come from a different heritage than photography and make total sense for their original use.

Agree. I was kind of surprised of this Cooter's point in his post, knowing he pays a lot of attention in usability and efficiency and not an orthodox person, I thought it was me reading wrong. I'm also a (new) Nuke user, currently learning it and there is no question for me that the nodes are way much more efficient than the layers. And not only in a collaborative workflow.
Abandon an AE or even a complex PS project for 5 days and it's hell to be back into it, specially AE wich is one of the worst interface I've ever seen. Each time I hear After-Effects name it's like seeing the antechrist...or the antiworkflow if you prefer. With nodes I see imediatly the all picture, the groups etc and in terms of workflow I can't think of a faster method for both solo and team workflow. IMO. I'm not sure if Cooter was talking more about the oscur jargon associated than the nodes themselves.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 07:34:52 pm by fredjeang »
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stevesanacore

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2011, 07:41:42 pm »

Edmund, Fuji is traditionally a manufacturer that has been involved in extreme camera engineering (gx617, gx680, LF lenses, MFDBs, ...etc) not to mention its hi end cinema involvement (important to remember because of stills/video convergence), recently they announced that they plan to gain the 3rd position as largest camera manufacturer in the following few years. After the S5pro they are without a single interchangeable lens camera! (I don't know if Hass H is still marketed as fujifilm in the Japanese market, ...somebody may enlighten us here), but since the economic and construction relationship with Hass is evident and Fuji has production capabilities of their own sensors, I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was a lower market Hass/upper market Fuji new series of cameras that would relate to each other like Leica and Panasonic does, but to a higher level! Such a move, would be very beneficial for us photographers because it would increase competition with the Canikons and would speed tech advancement! Regards, Theodoros www.fotometria.gr

Fuji has a great reputation with pros from all the great cameras and lenses they made in the film days. It doesn't need Hasselblad as a partner to make great cameras or lenses to help design them or sell them. No offense intended to Hasselblad which I also have the highest regard for.

A lot has already been expressed that sum up my feelings of frustration with Canon and Nikon. I think Sony, Panasonic and maybe Fuji will be the dominant camera companies of the future. They have no legacy cameras to protect. Sony broke new ground with the F3 and FS100, so let's hope they do the same in the DSLR world.

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theguywitha645d

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #116 on: October 12, 2011, 08:37:37 pm »

I think Sony, Panasonic and maybe Fuji will be the dominant camera companies of the future. They have no legacy cameras to protect. Sony broke new ground with the F3 and FS100, so let's hope they do the same in the DSLR world.



Sony DSLRs follow the legacy of the Minolta cameras and lens systems. But Canon has broken its own legacy before which is why there are two lens mounts. Sony is doing very well right now, but they have blown it before. Funny thing about history, it tends to repeat itself. Canon and Nikon have shown themselves to be innovative as well.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #117 on: October 12, 2011, 10:46:50 pm »

A lot has already been expressed that sum up my feelings of frustration with Canon and Nikon.

Just out of curiosity, would you mind describing where you come from with these brands and what issues you have with them?

Thanks,

Cheers,
Bernard

fotometria gr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2011, 03:49:02 am »

Fuji has a great reputation with pros from all the great cameras and lenses they made in the film days. It doesn't need Hasselblad as a partner to make great cameras or lenses to help design them or sell them. No offense intended to Hasselblad which I also have the highest regard for.

A lot has already been expressed that sum up my feelings of frustration with Canon and Nikon. I think Sony, Panasonic and maybe Fuji will be the dominant camera companies of the future. They have no legacy cameras to protect. Sony broke new ground with the F3 and FS100, so let's hope they do the same in the DSLR world.


I never said that Fuji needs anybody (Sony or Panasonic don't need Zeiss or Leica either), however for Fuji to be absent from the interchangeable lens market for so long, it can only be beneficial to enter the market alongside with a "Heavy name" partner that could also be a very good customer... due to common mount lenses and additional body assembly. Thus I think that such a partnership can be prosperous for both..., since it would increase "entrance market" volume for Fuji and would give Hass additional market. Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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KevinA

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2011, 03:53:31 am »

No thank you.  My Leica DMR left film in the dust six years ago.
Did it really, which film and which dust?
 Not long ago I could see no reason for shooting film either, in fact I still don't see much use in shooting transparency film, I think digital does that job better. What I do find is once you have got over the Oohhs and ahhs of digital detail and start looking for other stuff in the picture a decent scan of colour negative leaves digital somewhat wanting.
I'm even looking at TV these days and thinking yes it sharp, yes the colour is neutral but there is no character in it or great depth. It's like decorating your house in the style of a hospital operating theatre, all neat clean, bright, precise and cold. I was watching Spooks the other night and thought someone spent a lot of time getting it very neutral with bang on skin tones, but the greens in the park lacked any great range of green and that's it for me in the digital I have experience of, yes you get the colours it gives you bang on , but it does not give you many colours.
If it was not for the fact I need digital to make a living, I think I would not bother with it, the more I look the less I like about it, the less I like the bells and whistles that clutter the cameras up and the endless permutations of setting the camera up.

Kevin.
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