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Author Topic: Nikon 1 series?  (Read 9825 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Nikon 1 series?
« on: September 26, 2011, 10:07:59 am »

From what I have seen, LL appears to be the only major photography site on the internet that has not considered it worthwhile to even mention the release of the Nikon 1 system.

Why is that?

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 10:31:35 am »

From what I have seen, LL appears to be the only major photography site on the internet that has not considered it worthwhile to even mention the release of the Nikon 1 system.

Why is that?

Cheers,
Bernard

No sample to test?  Lack of Interest?  Only Michael can tell us.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 12:59:26 am »

Hi Bernard,

I'd say that Luminous Landscape is more about Michael and his friends sharing their experience than reviewing cameras and Michaels interest is more into MF digital. Could also be Nikon didn't sent samples to test.

I must say, the Nikon introduction doesn't make much sense to me, but I may be wrong. My view is that a camera should be small enough to fit in your pocket (with lens) or be large enough to fit your palms.

Now, it may be possible to construct a high performing system with a small sensor. NEX seems to have a great sensor (in this context) but also dismal lenses, possibly with some exceptions. So Nikon perhaps makes excellent lenses? Olympus and Panasonic seem to have very good lenses and still pretty large sensor.

One of the advantages of mirrorless is that you can essentially put any lens on it, because of the short flange distance. But existing lenses are normally intended for 135 mm film, so having a large sensor makes a lot of sense.

Best regards
Erik

Regarding the NEX and lenses, I have seen sample shots from the new Zeiss 24, and the samples I had seen were bad in the corners at f/8.

From what I have seen, LL appears to be the only major photography site on the internet that has not considered it worthwhile to even mention the release of the Nikon 1 system.

Why is that?

Cheers,
Bernard

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fike

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 05:12:15 pm »

Samples from this camera went up on DPReview today.  My very crude and subjective assessment of the images was that high ISO quality was generally good, though not stunning. I thought there was a good bit of smudging of detail in the 3200 ISO images.  But really, I think it is pretty darn good for a camera of this type to only start to look bad at 3200.  I was initially unimpressed because of the compromise on the sensor size, but it appears my concerns were largely unfounded.  We will have to revisit when the cameras are actually seen in the wild.

...and no, I won't go all meta on you and comment on why nobody at LL is commenting.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 07:50:24 pm »

But really, I think it is pretty darn good for a camera of this type to only start to look bad at 3200.  I was initially unimpressed because of the compromise on the sensor size, but it appears my concerns were largely unfounded.

Not too bad, is it? Definitely closer to 4/3 than to high end digital compact cameras (actually probably better than 4/3 in some of the samples I saw but pixel peeping will be needed to find a winner if we need one).

To put things in perspective, this is also clearly much better than 35mm film ever was at those high ISOs. It also seems to be nearly as good as my 2 generations old D80 at high ISO.

I can see myself putting a 10mm f2.8 on it, work in A mode, auto ISO set at 1/40 sec min shutter speed and never have anything to do but dial in some exposure correction... and press the shutter. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard

feppe

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 07:58:17 pm »

I would get it if the cameras were smaller than MFT or whatever the mount NEX has is called - a loss in IQ would be acceptable and expected. But Nikon spent over four years designing a camera with a smaller sensor than the competition, but the cameras are not any smaller.

To me size, bulk and weight was the main driver in me going from APS-C to MFT, and I'm sure that's the case for many in the market segment.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 08:18:10 pm »

I would get it if the cameras were smaller than MFT or whatever the mount NEX has is called - a loss in IQ would be acceptable and expected. But Nikon spent over four years designing a camera with a smaller sensor than the competition, but the cameras are not any smaller.

Does that include the lenses also? :-)

It might not matter for all, but for those photographers looking for small size, the standard NEX zoom is about 20mm longer than the Nikon equivalent (60 vs 40). I am not sure about the image quality of these lenses, how good is the 60mm long Sony standard zoom?

Cheers,
Bernard

Cheers,
Bernard

feppe

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 08:27:55 pm »

Does that include the lenses also? :-)

It might not matter for all, but for those photographers looking for small size, the standard NEX zoom is about 20mm longer than the Nikon equivalent (60 vs 40). I am not sure about the image quality of these lenses, how good is the 60mm long Sony standard zoom?

With the lens, yes (scroll down).

NEX cameras are generally smaller than MFT cameras, but with the lenses they are significantly bigger. It doesn't matter when the marketers can call them "world's smallest camera" and people don't realize that cameras need lenses :P The biggest complaint I've heard about NEX is the lack of a good lens selection, and their size - otherwise supposed to be fine cameras.

As TOP's Michael said, the big winner in Nikon's announcement was MFT.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 08:29:27 pm by feppe »
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fike

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 08:32:52 pm »

I would get it if the cameras were smaller than MFT or whatever the mount NEX has is called - a loss in IQ would be acceptable and expected. But Nikon spent over four years designing a camera with a smaller sensor than the competition, but the cameras are not any smaller.

This is what surprises me.  Of course we will need to wait to see it in some objective comparison tests, but it appears a smaller sensor may have achieved equivalent or better performance than 4/3 or micro 4/3.  What else might they have up their sleeve?  This is intriguing to me because of the enhanced depth of field that can be had from the smaller sensors, and of course, the smaller size (I am shooting 7d right now). 

As an aside, I must say, Nikon's interface design and ergonomics have never been my favorite, but that statement is probably 50% attributable to familiarity with what I have been using for years.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 09:37:36 pm »

With the lens, yes (scroll down).

I could only find a comparison with the Olympus/Pana on the page you provided, is there another one with the NEX somewhere?

Had you compared the J1 the thickness would have been basically the same, the lens + body being a bit more compact with the Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 10:52:42 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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feppe

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2011, 12:39:40 pm »

I could only find a comparison with the Olympus/Pana on the page you provided, is there another one with the NEX somewhere?

Had you compared the J1 the thickness would have been basically the same, the lens + body being a bit more compact with the Nikon.

I haven't done any comparisons since I don't really care about the Nikon cameras and have no plan to invest in it, mainly due to the smaller sensor and the fact I'm already invested in MFT and very happy with it. That's just a link that popped up in google image search.

Against NEX cameras the Nikons would be slightly smaller, since NEX's are bigger than MFT cameras with comparable lenses. I'm sure more thorough size comparisons will come soon on the internets.

John Camp

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 05:20:34 pm »

I use a whole bunch of different cameras, including m4/3. Despite what NEX people will tell you, the small-size m4/3s are smaller, usually, if you include the lens, and as a system, m4/3 is distinctly smaller than a NEX equivalent. (Panasonic also makes some larger m4/3 cameras, like the DH2.) The main problem (if there is one) of the m4/3 cameras is that both makers are using older-generation sensors. If they were using current-generation sensors (like those in the D7000 or the K5) then I think m4/3 would probably be a distinct step ahead of the Nikon offering. Nikon for the moment may be just as good as m4/3, but I don't believe that will last -- there's too much difference in sensor size. You can, of course, ask whether you really need much more performance from the Nikon -- I suspect it will make very good prints up to 22" or so, especially for personal use. I find the high-ISO performance intriguing, and if m4/3 continues to trail in sensor performance, I may try the V1. It's the small size of the systems that I'm after...Another thing to note, m4/3 offers a substantial lens system (including even fisheyes, and a zoom that goes out to a 600 equiv) that we see with neither NEX or, as yet, with the Nikon. I'm a longtime Nikon user, and I have to say I don't entirely trust their performance in producing much-needed lenses. 
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feppe

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2011, 07:44:57 pm »

There are new MFT cameras coming from Panasonic later this year. There have been rumors about a new sensor, even global shutter...

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 08:46:01 pm »

If they were using current-generation sensors (like those in the D7000 or the K5) then I think m4/3 would probably be a distinct step ahead of the Nikon offering. Nikon for the moment may be just as good as m4/3, but I don't believe that will last -- there's too much difference in sensor size. You can, of course, ask whether you really need much more performance from the Nikon -- I suspect it will make very good prints up to 22" or so, especially for personal use. I find the high-ISO performance intriguing, and if m4/3 continues to trail in sensor performance, I may try the V1. It's the small size of the systems that I'm after...Another thing to note, m4/3 offers a substantial lens system (including even fisheyes, and a zoom that goes out to a 600 equiv) that we see with neither NEX or, as yet, with the Nikon. I'm a longtime Nikon user, and I have to say I don't entirely trust their performance in producing much-needed lenses. 

Yet, sensors are not yet a commodity. Canon was largely ahead between the 1ds release and the arrival of the D3. Nikon has been on a similar roll for more than 4 years now. Nobody else has been able to get even close to the low light performance of the D3s or to the DR of the D3x. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that Nikon can keep a 1+ stop lead over Panasonic for long enough.

Even today, from what I can see that 1 series is close to the performance of APS DSLRs a few years back, those same cameras were happily printed large images from.

So competition between cameras does matter, but in the end the key is our needs. I know for a fact that the people targeted by the 1 series never print larger than A4, yet the 1 series in good hands will most probably deliver A3 prints difficult to distinguish from those of a high end DSLR.

Cheers,
Bernard

theguywitha645d

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 09:40:26 pm »

The sensor in the new E-P3 is a new sensor. It has nothing to do with past models.
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John Camp

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2011, 09:59:40 pm »

The sensor in the new E-P3 is a new sensor. It has nothing to do with past models.

I know. (Perhaps I should have said, "equivalent to earlier generations.") The problem is not how new it is, the problem is that its performance equals that of earlier generations of Nikon, Sony and Canon. This is no secret in m4/3 circles (I'm an m4/3 enthusiast.) I hope that the allegedly forthcoming Panasonic "pro" model will get us close to the D7000 and K5. The E-P3 does not.
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kwalsh

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2011, 01:35:25 am »

The sensor in the new E-P3 is a new sensor. It has nothing to do with past models.

No, that isn't correct.  The E-P3 sensor is the same old 12MP sensor from every other Olympus offering and the Panasonic G1/G2/GF1/GF2/GF3.

The only m43 cameras with different sensors are the GH1, GH2 and G3 - each of which have a unique sensor.

DxOMark in fact just tested the E-P3 and no surprise, it tested identically to all the other cameras using that same ancient 12MP sensor.

Ken

EDIT:  The 3 series EP's are doing faster live view readout, so maybe that is the reason for the impression of a new sensor.  If there were any changes to the sensor for the faster read out it doesn't appear to have improved the pixel cell at all, the DxO tests show it to be identical to the previous EP's.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 02:25:50 am by kwalsh »
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feppe

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2011, 12:10:42 pm »

kwalsh is right: E-P3 has the same sensor as all other Olympus MFT cameras, and DxO results confirm it.

There was a lot of marketing material talking about a new sensor (not sure if they actually used that phrase or just implied it), but what they actually meant was "improved JPEG engine and new image processor." JPEGs from the new Oly MFT cameras looked better than previous cameras and everyone was hoping that means new sensor, but when RAW results started coming out it was clear that the sensor is the same old one.

Very disappointing. But that means I have more money for lenses :)

The new Oly MFT cameras have other improvements, mainly AF which is faster than any DSLR AFAIK in single shot mode, but sensor and RAW performance have not improved.

Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2011, 05:01:11 pm »

Bernard, I have to say with all respect and niceness (does this word exist?  ;D) that like many Nikon owners I see around in the forums these last days, I think you are positively biased towards Nikon 1, probably without knowing.

Funily many of those Nikon fans (this does not include you), had tons of negative comments to make about mirrorless cameras when MFT, NX and NEX systems appeared in the market. Nikon finally enters the game, with a similarly sized, higher priced, and lower performance* sensor camera, and the Nikon 1 concept becomes something interesting!.

Regards

* this comparision excludes PEN and lower Panasonic MFT cameras. They are in competition for the Guinness record on 'how to use the same crap sensor for more than 3 years, and still be able to sell cameras'.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 05:05:42 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon 1 series?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2011, 07:48:06 pm »

Bernard, I have to say with all respect and niceness (does this word exist?  ;D) that like many Nikon owners I see around in the forums these last days, I think you are positively biased towards Nikon 1, probably without knowing.

Funily many of those Nikon fans (this does not include you), had tons of negative comments to make about mirrorless cameras when MFT, NX and NEX systems appeared in the market. Nikon finally enters the game, with a similarly sized, higher priced, and lower performance* sensor camera, and the Nikon 1 concept becomes something interesting!.

Guillermo,

Fair comment. As far as I am concerned, it is a combination of factors:
- the fact that all my compact cameras have recently died on me,
- the fact that image quality is not the most important aspect of a compact camera, although it is still of course relevant. I believe that the DxoMark report on the 1 is pretty clear here, it is a very decent performer compared to 4/3 and significantly better than high end compacts. The NEX is of course in a different class and a very good offering in its own right, but the NEX lenses are too bulky to replace a compact camera,
- the appeal of a really fast AF system. The slowness of all AF systems in non DSLRs has been irritating for some time. My wife and I are awaiting a baby currently and I know that there will be many occasions when I will not have my DSLR but will still like to take sharp images of a moving kid,
- the possibility to use a 1 as a back up for DSLRs thought the usage of the lens adapter

But I have not taken the decision to buy a 1 series at this stage would it only be for the reason that I have not seen one yet.

So my comments here have been more oriented towards "wait for facts before you kill a camera system because it might not appeal to your own applications".

Cheers,
Bernard
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