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Author Topic: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?  (Read 66315 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2011, 05:21:05 am »

Yes, thanks.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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IanEisenberg

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2011, 02:45:26 pm »

Why should they be upset with Apple?
Apple provided a way for software companies to bring their software up to speed with the latest technologies while still having a working set of code. This way the third party software companies could keep they customers happy. That was 6 years ago.
In essence there has been six years in which to re-write the i1 software to make it fully cocoa and 64 bit compliant, all the while there could have been incremental updates for a minimal charge to cover the cost of development. That is how every other company does it.
In this case the upgrade fee is deemed exorbitant by the user base. Vote with your wallet and move to a different product but to blame Apple is silly.
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Ray Maxwell

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2011, 02:18:13 pm »

All of you have been discussing many of the high end X-Rite systems and software.  Let's talk about the low end.  If you go out and by an Eye-One Display 2, it comes with Power PC software today.  Apple has not released a Power PC based system in more than five years.  Rosetta was a system released to support legacy software.  Way to go Apple.  You have supplied this support for more than five years.  Apple did its part.  When I buy a new product, I expect it to come with software that is current with current OS software.  In the Apple case all new software should be Intel, 64 bit, and Coco based.  The Eye-One Display 2 is more than five years behind.  Now let's compare this to other software.  I use "SuperDuper" for backup on my Mac.  It sells for $27.95.  I have had it for many years.  It works very well.  I have received more than five updates over the years at no cost.  If ShirtPocket can support their software properly, why can't X-Rite???  X-Rite says they are going to send me an email when they get around to updating this software and they are going to charge me for it.  This is very, very POOR support.  I am going to remember this when I go to buy any color management software in the future.

Ray Maxwell
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Scott Martin

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2011, 02:31:30 pm »

If you go out and by an Eye-One Display 2, it comes with Power PC software today.

First of all, it's a discontinued product. Secondly, I have to snicker at anyone who would have bought such an old product in the last few years considering there were such better options - plenty of us have been discouraging sales of that product for a variety of reasons. Thirdly, if you had bought an XRite product in the last few months you'd be eligible for a free upgrade. Fourthly, on the low end, the Huey and ColorMunki are both Lion compatible.

XRite has Lion compatible, modern code software for all of their devices. They aren't dropping support. Even long discontinued products like the Pulse, DTP94,  SpectroScan, Sphere, etc are supported with XRite's free ColorPort utility. Yes, some who bought products a while back will have to pay for an upgrade to continue profiling capabilities, but those users will gain new features and quality with it.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2011, 09:21:27 pm »

First of all, it's a discontinued product. Secondly, I have to snicker at anyone who would have bought such an old product in the last few years considering there were such better options - plenty of us have been discouraging sales of that product for a variety of reasons. Thirdly, if you had bought an XRite product in the last few months you'd be eligible for a free upgrade. Fourthly, on the low end, the Huey and ColorMunki are both Lion compatible.

XRite has Lion compatible, modern code software for all of their devices. They aren't dropping support. Even long discontinued products like the Pulse, DTP94,  SpectroScan, Sphere, etc are supported with XRite's free ColorPort utility. Yes, some who bought products a while back will have to pay for an upgrade to continue profiling capabilities, but those users will gain new features and quality with it.

Hi Scott,

You can snicker about people buying an Eye 1 Display 2 because it is an "old" product, but NEC bundles TODAY their customized version of this device for profiling their latest state-of-the-art PA series displays. I haven't heard yet whether my NEC colorimeter will work with Lion. I suppose it is up to NEC to make sure of that should they chose to do so, but as I say, narry a peep from them.

Next on Pulse - yes - the device is supported with ColorPort, but neither the Pulse nor ColorPort can generate a profile. For that, on Snow Leopard I can still generate a profile using the Elite software that came with the device. It is vintage 2005, needs Rosetta and is therefore gone with Lion. So, my options, to continue using this device, are to buy i1Profiler for 500 bucks, or keep on tap my old Windows XP laptop on which this software still runs fine. We know that i1Profiler will generate a slightly better profile than will Elite - but the differences don't turn the world upside-down. So were I to upgrade to Lion one of these days (TBD), I'll then have what I consider a marginal decision to make about spending the next 500 for a very slight improvement of the warm-tone gamut.

Small increments of progress cost us chunks of money. As I've said before, upgrade when necessary but don't necessarily upgrade.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2011, 10:56:55 pm »

I suppose it is up to NEC to make sure of that should they chose to do so, but as I say, narry a peep from them.

The most recent version of Spectraview II software runs under Lion...it shouldn't be an issue with the hardware, just PPC software that requires Rosetta.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2011, 10:59:11 pm »

The most recent version of Spectraview II software runs under Lion...it shouldn't be an issue with the hardware, just PPC software that requires Rosetta.

And BasicColor is now updated to run on Lion also, but doesn't the colorimeter need an updated "framework"?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2011, 11:04:52 pm »

....but doesn't the colorimeter need an updated "framework"?

Not that I'm aware of. The main issue is Rosetta...(or lack there of).

BTW, it seems Apple didn't extend their license of the Rosetta software from Transitive Inc. which is why it's not in Lion (as far as I know, there's no technical reason why Lion can't support Rosetta–I could be wrong). So it seems to have been a financial reason Apple ceased Rosetta support.
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na goodman

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2011, 11:11:05 pm »

So could someone else license Rosetta and make it a download like it was with SL? Just a thought.
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joofa

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2011, 01:01:36 am »

So could someone else license Rosetta and make it a download like it was with SL? Just a thought.

May be possible since Rosetta seems to be a separate entity from Snow Leopard kernel. Though you can see reference to Rosetta in the kernel, which might have been removed in Lion kernel.
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Scott Martin

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2011, 06:00:12 pm »

You can snicker about people buying an Eye 1 Display 2 because it is an "old" product, but NEC bundles TODAY their customized version of this device for profiling their latest state-of-the-art PA series displays. I haven't heard yet whether my NEC colorimeter will work with Lion. I suppose it is up to NEC to make sure of that should they chose to do so, but as I say, narry a peep from them.

Buying into NEC's system is totally different than XRite's EyeOneDisplay2 system. Not only is NEC's device different (it has different filters) the software is fantastic and Lion friendly. NEC system is great, although I do worry about the long term stability of that device.

So, my options, to continue using this device, are to buy i1Profiler for 500 bucks, or keep on tap my old Windows XP laptop on which this software still runs fine.

Right. Hey, it's a 6 year old device that you can still use. $500 for a newer, pro-grade profiling software upgrade isn't bad at all, although I see your perspective. Thus is life. Another option is to continue making your own measurements in CP and send the measurement data to someone for quick profile generation in i1Profiler.
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Scott Martin
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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2011, 06:05:04 pm »

So it seems to have been a financial reason Apple ceased Rosetta support.
They have more money than _________. My feeling is that they're leaving Rosetta out on principle. They want to protect the OS X "experience" and encourage an ecosystem of updated applications that take full advantage of the latest technology. They want to experience to be sexy and that sometimes means making hard decisions and moving forward.

Speaking of which, will somebody please re-write ColorLab, ColorShop X, ToolCrib and GamutWorks? :-]
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eronald

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2011, 06:09:05 pm »

I'm biased as I'm an industry insider, I guess.

However, I would like to say that Xrite make some very good instruments, and they make software which happens to use these instruments to measure stuff.

Other firms eg. Barbieri also make very good instruments and no software, and other firms eg. Basiccolor and ColorEyes make very good software and no instruments!
And there is also some very good *free* open-source profiling software (Argyll).

 So if you dislike Xrite's support or licensing or upgrade policy, or even their software functionality, you can use Xrite's very good instruments with third party software at a variety of pricepoints.

HINT: Xrite will be very happy to sell you their instruments, even if you choose not to use their software.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 06:15:51 pm by eronald »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2011, 07:21:55 pm »

They have more money than _________. My feeling is that they're leaving Rosetta out on principle. They want to protect the OS X "experience" and encourage an ecosystem of updated applications that take full advantage of the latest technology. They want to experience to be sexy and that sometimes means making hard decisions and moving forward.

Speaking of which, will somebody please re-write ColorLab, ColorShop X, ToolCrib and GamutWorks? :-]
Actually it's not so much principle but where Apple is going as a company.  Desktop computers are the second smallest revenue component from a hardware perspective (as per their most current qtr report that came out last week).  The only reason they are not at the bottom is because iPod sales are crashing because of smart phones (whether iPhone or Android it doesn't matter since both are replacing the iPod in terms of what it was designed to do in the same way the iPod eliminated the Sony Walkman and Discman).  Apple wants to insure cross compatibility with the iPad (fastest growing segment of the business and second only to the iPhone in terms of revenues).  The company won't support anything that they believe to be superfluous to that goal and future OS updates will continue to reflect that.  I don't think these things are "hard decisions" at all.  If a piece of software is not needed in their minds, bingo it gets eliminated.  Their bigger problem going forward is to insure content royalties for their devices increase dramatically since at some point the hardware market becomes saturated (unless they make a decision to go after corporate business which they have not been inclined to do).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2011, 09:13:02 pm »

Not only is NEC's device different (it has different filters) the software is fantastic and Lion friendly. NEC system is great, although I do worry about the long term stability of that device.


NEC's software makes matrix profiles. Those who want LUT profiles generated from many more data points need another application. As for the LT stability of the device, I understand this depends largely on the materials with which the filters are made. If they are plastic, cause for concern. If they are glass, better prospects. I don't know how they are made. I also understand the DTP-94 (Optix XR) has glass filters, whereas the i1Display 2 does not.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2011, 09:15:00 pm »



Speaking of which, will somebody please re-write ColorLab, ColorShop X, ToolCrib and GamutWorks? :-]

I would very much like to see this happen too.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2011, 09:19:15 pm »

Xrite make some very good instruments, and they make software which happens to use these instruments to measure stuff.

 Basiccolor and ColorEyes make very good software and no instruments!


Edmund


XRite also makes some pretty iffy instruments. That's been documented.

BasicColor now provides the DISCUS colorimeter - expensive device but from what I hear - top notch.

Argyll is there and I understand excellent - for those who have the time, ability and patience to use it.
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PhilipCummins

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2011, 10:24:18 pm »

The [Apple] company won't support anything that they believe to be superfluous to that goal and future OS updates will continue to reflect that.  I don't think these things are "hard decisions" at all.  If a piece of software is not needed in their minds, bingo it gets eliminated.

Except when the AppleTV is concerned. Apparently it's still a "hobby". It's clear Apple is being a bit hypocritical on some things, but it is understandable they want to move on from PowerPC, just like 68K in order to focus on their iOS platform instead. I think the future will be probably getting SheepShaver or MOL/MOM working in emulation environments to support PowerPC/68K as a paid-for supported product by 3rd parties if such supported is required. Either that or VMware/Parallels with Windows XP would work as well if necessary.
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digitaldog

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2011, 09:55:26 am »

NEC's software makes matrix profiles. Those who want LUT profiles generated from many more data points need another application.

We’ve been down this rabbit hole before. IF NEC needed to make a LUT profile, they certainly could and this urban legend propagated that somehow, a Matrix profile built for such a system is inferior has never been empirically demonstrated, and until then is simply a flat earth theory. Now maybe the LUT profile placebo effect makes you feel better about your calibration. But other than yourself and I think Richard Wagner, perhaps one or two others who haven’t provided any evidence of the superiority or need for LUT profile in SpectraView, the thousands of SpectraView customers seem to be quite happy with the results of their pithy Matrix profile.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2011, 10:48:07 am »

We’ve been down this rabbit hole before. IF NEC needed to make a LUT profile, they certainly could and this urban legend propagated that somehow, a Matrix profile built for such a system is inferior has never been empirically demonstrated, and until then is simply a flat earth theory. Now maybe the LUT profile placebo effect makes you feel better about your calibration. But other than yourself and I think Richard Wagner, perhaps one or two others who haven’t provided any evidence of the superiority or need for LUT profile in SpectraView, the thousands of SpectraView customers seem to be quite happy with the results of their pithy Matrix profile.

Andrew, it's not a rabbit hole and it's not flat earth theory. After making a profile with Spectraview and testing it with Patchtool I was not completely satisfied so I made another one with BasicColor (using the NEC colorimeter), ran that one through Patchtool and the dE values were lower. So a sample of one empirically demonstrated to me. Before doing this, I also had evidence that there is some non-linearity in the response of that display. Matrix profiles are fine when the display response is perfectly linear - according to NEC. But when it isn't, the LUT profile is preferred. Unless those thousands of Spectraview customers you are talking about have taken the trouble to do non-circular testing of their profiles and compared results of the two types of profiles for the same display using the same software, they could remain perfectly happy with what they have, or their displays are perfectly linear. Speculation about the satisfaction of thousands of consumers is completely and totally irrelevant to my experience and findings, and has no scientific basis. It's entirely possible that either their displays are perfectly linear or they don't know what they don't know. 
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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