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Author Topic: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?  (Read 65358 times)

joofa

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2011, 04:41:32 am »

The nice thing about Microsoft, however, is that they developed a compatibility application which users could download and implement. It reads everything on your computer and produces a lengthy report telling you what will work seamlessly in Win7 and what may be problematic. I haven't seen Apple being helpful to their clients in this way.

Apple has built in support for a similar process. Go to About This Mac->More Info->Software/Applications and it will show a "compatibility list" that includes among other information what is 64-bit or not.

In fact to the contrary, their cult of arrogance and insularity does the reverse. But I guess when a company nets 7 billion a quarter on phones and pads, why care about all the Mac customers who kept them in business all these years before these hay-days.

Not necessarily true. Among other things, Apple did some research, presumably silently, on how to proceed with 64-bit kernel for Snow Leopard and perhaps for Lion also. For instance check if you have the the file /Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.third_party_32b_kext_logger.plist on your Mac, which according to some online reports was used by Apple to spoof on users' systems to determine suitability for a 64-bit Kernel. Remember, a 64-bit Kernel is not the same as support for 64-bit applications or a "64-bit OS". Snow Leopard can run 64-bit applications but its Kernel for many Mac machines defaults to 32 bits. Because, recent 32-bit Mac OS X kernels can do 64-bit applications, so the issue of 64-bit applications is not a concern here. To check if you are really running a 64-bit kernel, go to About this Mac->More Info->Software and see what does the entry "64-bit Kernel and Extensions" say. One way to boot into a 64-bit kernel on certain Mac models is to hold "6" and "4" during booting.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2011, 05:00:25 am »

Apple has built in support for a similar process. Go to About This Mac->More Info->Software/Applications and it will show a "compatibility list" that includes among other information what is 64-bit or not.

Not necessarily true. Among other things, Apple did some research, presumably silently, on how to proceed with 64-bit kernel for Snow Leopard and perhaps for Lion also. For instance check if you have the the file /Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.third_party_32b_kext_logger.plist on your Mac, which according to some online reports was used by Apple to spoof on users' systems to determine suitability for a 64-bit Kernel. Remember, a 64-bit Kernel is not the same as support for 64-bit applications or a "64-bit OS". Snow Leopard can run 64-bit applications but its Kernel for many Mac machines defaults to 32 bits. Because, recent 32-bit Mac OS X kernels can do 64-bit applications, so the issue of 64-bit applications is not a concern here. To check if you are really running a 64-bit kernel, go to About this Mac->More Info->Software and see what does the entry "64-bit Kernel and Extensions" say. One way to boot into a 64-bit kernel on certain Mac models is to hold "6" and "4" during booting.

Joofa

Re your first para - my MacBook Pro does not have this information at all (2010 model with Snow Leopard). I can't check my desktop just now, but I shall.)

Re your second para - very interesting. 64-bit Kernel says "No". I'll probably try your "6 and 4" suggestion and see whether it works on this computer.
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Curt Peters

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2011, 06:37:09 pm »

Hi all,

Wow, I am in awe that such names as Andrew Rodney and Jeff Schewe amongst others (you guys ROCK) have responded to this thread. Ultimately this issue is about the pricing structure of X-Rite's Upgrades and what you get with them. Since this thread started, I posted links to it on XRite's Face Book site ( http://www.facebook.com/xritephoto ) and on my Face Book Business site ( http://www.facebook.com/DigitalDunesPhoto ).  Xrite is listening.  I was contacted today from Brenda K. Hipsher, she can be Followed on Twitter @xritephoto or you can Read her blog at
http://blog.xritephoto.com/.  She is the X-Rite Coloratti Field Manager, X-Rite Photo Blog Manager, and has been in the Photo industry since 1978. Working for MAC Group since 1993.

Surprised that XRite actually wanted my opinion on this issue and wanted to clear up some issues.... I took her call.  Thank You Brenda. She explained a lot to me and assured me that xrite is listening.

Here is the link to the i1Profiler upgrades. See the chart in the middle.
http://www.xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=1472&catid=109&action=overview

And here is the link to the Lion compatibility chart.
http://www.xritephoto.com/lion

Both upgrades, A & B, come with CMYK and RGB management.... the different pricing between the two depend on what the customer originally purchased. Both upgrades get the user to the current i1 Publish, which works with Lion.

We also discussed that the i1 Beamer ( for projector calibration only ) is not available.... and that B&H who has it listed for 945.00 is no longer available and needs to be taken down to end some of the confusion.... the rest of the confusion is when GreyTag MacBeth married Xrite and different products from both companies merged.... some dropped or discontinued, some new ones arrived, and then the way you could purchase them with varying degrees of activation attached to the Spectrophotometer bundled in various kits.... makes it very hard for the end user (me) to figure out what upgrade I even needed.... turns out I need the 499.00 one.

We discussed pricing for the up-grades and what i felt would be a fair price for the up-grades, I told her that in the beginning of this thread, I was willing to pay 150.00 to 200.00 for upgrade A, but after listening to Andrew and Jeff and others, that I'd be willing to pay around 250.00 for the product upgrade. She thanked me and we spoke some more about other things like marketing their product to Camera Clubs, and social networking campaigns.

End result: XRITE is listening and hearing about their pricing model and the upgrade fees. They need to hear more.... so I pose her question to all of you, "What would you pay for the up-grade you need?"


tony22

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2011, 07:36:08 pm »

I'd be willing to pay $250 for Upgrade A only if they allow for the same type of OBA compensation using an i1Pro as in i1Match and PM Pro, and if they include a scanner capability like i1Match. I'd like the same full functionality including the digital camera profiling, but I'll admit there is some question as to how useful that part may be.

And I'd still want a full featured profile editor if I decide I don't want to use their optimization method.
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digitaldog

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2011, 07:39:42 pm »

I'd be willing to pay $250 for Upgrade A only if they allow for the same type of OBA compensation using an i1Pro as in i1Match and PM Pro...
And I'd still want a full featured profile editor if I decide I don't want to use their optimization method.

What makes you think you need either?

Would you pay a bit more for the scanner module inside PMP?
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Curt Peters

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2011, 08:06:46 pm »

I'd be willing to pay $250 for Upgrade A only if they allow for the same type of OBA compensation using an i1Pro as in i1Match and PM Pro, and if they include a scanner capability like i1Match. I'd like the same full functionality including the digital camera profiling, but I'll admit there is some question as to how useful that part may be.

And I'd still want a full featured profile editor if I decide I don't want to use their optimization method.

Tony...... I believe the question was "what would you be willing to pay for your upgrade"   not what should be added to the up-grade.  XRite is not going to change what they are offering, but may consider a price adjustment based upon todays economy and professionals who use and promote XRite based upon info they gather here and elsewhere.... so again to all of you..... What would you be willing to pay for your upgrade?

Schewe

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2011, 08:29:56 pm »

Wow, I am in awe that such names as Andrew Rodney and Jeff Schewe amongst others (you guys ROCK) have responded to this thread.

To be clear, my additions to the thread revolve around the forced migration of PPC apps and the elimination of Rosetta. I don't have a strong opinion about the relative value of the X-rite upgrade path. I use ProfileMaker and Profiler...and aside from getting the i1 Profiler update, my opinion of i1 Profiler is still out. The current version is a bit buggy and lacks some of the features of previous apps, but depending on what you are using currently I don't think the upgrades as priced are really a bad value. It all depends on what it's worth to you. Buy or don't buy based of it's value to you. But don't attribute my posting as agreeing with you.
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tony22

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2011, 08:39:28 pm »

Tony...... I believe the question was "what would you be willing to pay for your upgrade"   not what should be added to the up-grade.

You're right Curt. My rant mode got ahead of my brain cells. :) Well, I think I could be convinced to go for something in the $200-250 range for Upgrade A. I'd have more incentive at the lower end of that price range of course. Some of us are just dedicated enthusiats.
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tony22

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2011, 08:47:19 pm »

What makes you think you need either?

Because I admit I'm not an expert in getting the best out of a straight profiling method. Not in all the time I've been doing this, back to the days of Colorvision Profiler Plus software. It seems I always need a good tool on the back end to hammer out the imperfections in a profile editor. I've actually gotten pretty good at that part of it. The irony is not lost on me. :-[

Would you pay a bit more for the scanner module inside PMP?

Yes, I think I would.
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Curt Peters

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2011, 09:18:28 pm »

To be clear, my additions to the thread revolve around the forced migration of PPC apps and the elimination of Rosetta. I don't have a strong opinion about the relative value of the X-rite upgrade path. I use ProfileMaker and Profiler...and aside from getting the i1 Profiler update, my opinion of i1 Profiler is still out. The current version is a bit buggy and lacks some of the features of previous apps, but depending on what you are using currently I don't think the upgrades as priced are really a bad value. It all depends on what it's worth to you. Buy or don't buy based of it's value to you. But don't attribute my posting as agreeing with you.
Jeff, sorry if you felt that I was "piggy backing" and using you name to gain acceptance towards a better pricing model at XRite's upgrade policy...... I was merely trying to say that I was in awe that both you and Andrew responded to some of my posts..... A Newbie...... No harm and piggy backing meant. Sorry. 

"Buy or don't buy based of it's value to you"

  I was thinking that it was of value to all professionals...... some of us are at the top of the food chain.... like Apple, Adobe, XRite,Canon, Nikon.... some close to the top who help develop this stuff... (like yourself) and Andrew (BTW Brenda at XRite spoke very highly of you), next in the food chain is is large labs and print houses, then towards the bottom (where I reside) is the very small one man operations that rely on everyone above them to get it right..... for 5 years I have followed you and others and modeled my reputation based upon your knowledge and insight to professional photography, Adobe, XRite, and various other professional softwares and devises.  Thank You for all you have done and continue to do.  However I believe that if the small business can't afford these very large upgrade prices, that we will go away and find other ways to make a living.... which in turn will take away business from the print houses which will then have less revenue to purchase upgrades etc.etc. So maybe the big picture is that it has value to all us... From the top down!

digitaldog

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2011, 09:18:53 pm »

Because I admit I'm not an expert in getting the best out of a straight profiling method. Not in all the time I've been doing this, back to the days of Colorvision Profiler Plus software. It seems I always need a good tool on the back end to hammer out the imperfections in a profile editor. I've actually gotten pretty good at that part of it. The irony is not lost on me. :-[

Yes, I think I would.


No you donít. You donít want to either. This ainít Colorvision Profiler Plus software!
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tony22

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2011, 10:10:22 pm »

I cannot contest your expertise on these matters Andrew. Since I'm near the bottom of the food chain I'm not sure when I'll get the chance to learn what something like i1Profiler can do for me.
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Rhossydd

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2011, 04:17:37 am »

What would you be willing to pay for your upgrade?
The problem here is that you're asking the wrong question. The "upgrade" isn't really an upgrade to an existing package, but it's the chance to buy into a different type of more advanced product at reduced price.

X-Rite have 'rationalised' their product range, and as a result have dropped their budget package i1Match, their premium products PMP & Monoco Profiler have also been dropped. (BTW this should have happen a year ago, but their new software has been delayed many times).
When this has happened to other products, customers have often been stuck with old products that aren't supported and cease working as OS upgrades etc aren't supported. Users often have to look elsewhere for similar products and have start again to buy things at full price.

X-Rite could just said "sorry guys, that old Gretag MacBeth product is dead now" and you'd have had to buy something new that would work. Instead you've been offered the chance to get a much better specified product for a significantly reduced fee. Some people might say it's generous offer.

There's a lot wrong with X-Rite's products and marketing, but I don't believe this issue is nearly as bad as you seem to be making it out.
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PhilipCummins

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2011, 07:45:45 am »

... then towards the bottom (where I reside) is the very small one man operations that rely on everyone above them to get it right..... However I believe that if the small business can't afford these very large upgrade prices, that we will go away and find other ways to make a living....

I think any respectable small business would be able to afford at least $1500 to buy equipment that would assist them in getting their job done better if they can justify the results and outcomes (ie, better prints, better colour matching, etc). I know freelancers who have spent easily twice this amount on Adobe software subscriptions alone, yet they seem to be able to afford this with their freelance work and have little to show at the end of their subscription period (ie, they're certainly not able to keep using the last version they subscribed to).

If we look at costs of the upgrades & new purchases vs what it used to cost for some of the features $1500 is reasonable. ProfileMaker Pro with CMYK + 4 colour channel profiling used to cost somewhere in the vicinity (from memory) of at least $8000 - $12000 originally. i1XT used to be about $2500+ before it dropped to about $1300 once i1XTreme came out. I don't think a ~$425 upgrade is that unreasonable given the increase in features over i1 Match. Perhaps a cheaper upgrade to say, i1Photo Pro (with just RGB profiling) for half that would be a good compromise (and probably remove the i1 Basic package altogether, or move it to be just i1 Display Pro - you should be able to do RGB printer profiling out of the box like in i1 Photo Pro if the hardware supports it).

From a customer point of view if I'm going to a print facility they had better know their stuff about colour management, particularly as consumables cost quite a bit (particularly as in the end, I'm the one paying for them). If they're skimping on buying upgrades for what is relatively low cost in the grand scheme of things, how much more are they skimping on? It's quite interesting reading to browse photographer horror stories (particularly wedding photographers) where someone with a prosumer DSLR thinks they can outperform a top rated photographer and argue that they should do a shoot for next to nothing. People seem to lose track of the fact that real skills and experience are worth their value - hardware, software and equipment generally are expendable items and have short (if unlucky; long if you purchase prudently) lifespans.

In any case for most small businesses if they have a clear case for doing something, they will find a way to afford it (eventually - it can take them a while to get around to it!). It takes a while to get over the scrooge mentality but usually once they can see a clear cost/benefit from their purchases the decision is quite easily made. From my point of view as a hobbyist, I've valued the journey of learning how to handle colour management more than the costs of buying hardware or wasting paper making profiles. If I need to move on, I can simple on-sell the hardware; the knowledge I learnt I get to keep for far longer.
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Scott Martin

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2011, 10:11:49 am »

...I don't believe this issue is nearly as bad as you seem to be making it out.

Agreed! Let's move on...
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Rhossydd

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2011, 04:13:35 pm »

Also worth noting that not only X-Rite are having problems with this new Mac OS:-
Adobe
http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/905/cpsid_90508.html
Canon
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11663-11779
Nikon
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11663-11770

What would worry me if I was completely tied into a Mac was why companies of this size haven't been able to test compatibility issues before the OS has been released.
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Scott Martin

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2011, 04:22:45 pm »

What would worry me if I was completely tied into a Mac was why companies of this size haven't been able to test compatibility issues before the OS has been released.

They've all tested prior to release, they just haven't released compatible updates at the same time as the release. Apple's testing cycle *is* pretty short. FWIW, I saw Lion compatible updates come out from several vendors prior to Loin's release.

BTW, Canon's iPF large format printer group tells me that they are having excellent results with Lion with the existing drivers and PS plug-ins. Only a few things are broken. "Fast Graphic Process", for example, should not be checked under Lion and the color controls shouldn't be used. They will release new x300 drivers in August that officially support Lion and will fix these relatively small issues.
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Rhossydd

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2011, 04:35:28 pm »

They've all tested prior to release,
That's not what they say though. Canon use the expression "Has begun testing................Once testing is complete", Nikon say "the company plans to test "
Quote
They will release new x300 drivers in August that officially support Lion and will fix these relatively small issues.
Why does it take three months if they've been able to work with the OS upgrade before release ?

Sorry but this looks like they've been dropped in it by Apple not allowing enough time for manufacturers to keep up and support/update their products.
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Scott Martin

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2011, 10:28:33 pm »

That's not what they say though. Canon use the expression "Has begun testing................Once testing is complete"

I know otherwise and can tell you that the 'official marketing speak' is conservative and quite different from what the engineers doing the actual testing say. They've tested, their got their to-do list and are working on it. Things at big corporations take longer then one person software companies.

Why does it take three months if they've been able to work with the OS upgrade before release ?

Three months? August is next month. 10 days away even. Modifying, testing, providing documentations for and releasing 100+MB drivers globally in a jagillion languages takes more than a month.

Sorry but this looks like they've been dropped in it by Apple not allowing enough time for manufacturers to keep up and support/update their products.

If a 3rd party doesn't update their software quickly enough you'll blame Apple for that? Apple should hold off until every last company has caught up to speed? Everyone has their own agenda and timeline - including us users. Wait about a month before upgrading to Lion, then everything will likely be ready. Not a big deal.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: will X-Rite wake up and smell the coffee?
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2011, 03:47:10 am »

Apple has built in support for a similar process. Go to About This Mac->More Info->Software/Applications and it will show a "compatibility list" that includes among other information what is 64-bit or not.

Re your first para - my MacBook Pro does not have this information at all (2010 model with Snow Leopard). I can't check my desktop just now, but I shall.)
Mark, I'm sure your MacBook Pro does have it: it's been around, I think, since the start of OS X.

Under the apple menu, select "About this Mac". When the dialog appears, click "More Info..." and the System Profiler application will launch (or you could launch the application  directly: it's in the Utilities folder).

Then click on Applications (under Software) in the list on the left and wait for a while.

Jeremy
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