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Author Topic: MAC OSx Lion and printers  (Read 50452 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #100 on: July 11, 2011, 09:46:27 am »

In your "happy little world" what do you think of the failure of certain device manufacturers to up-date their drivers, rendering their devices unusable within four to five years of purchase?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2011, 09:55:09 am »

Until someone can definitively show me that the OS has an impact on the end result of the program (e.g., 2+2 =5, or that an image renders differently because of the OS and not LR/PS), then the decision becomes one of personal preference.  I pretty much agree with Jeff, that we've beaten this poor horse into submission.

If only it was that simple.

Pretty much every car will get you to your destination, yet there are difference in how much cargo you can carry, reliability and comfort.  Some of the factors are personal preference and some are monetary.

Let's look at something closer to topic.  If I save a photo to a hard drive, I will read back the same bits whether that hard drive is a simple consumer disk, or a fancy hardware RIAD.  Even though I get the same results, the RAID has advantages (increased reliability & speed) over the vanilla disk (which costs less).   The choice of consumer disk vs. RAID is not simply a personal preference choice, there are business consequences (for some the reliability of the RAID justifies the increased cost).


When it comes to Mac vs. Windows, Photoshop and Epson will both give you the same results today. 

For some of us, we are also concerned with the costs to maintain the system (repair failed hardware, fix corrupt software, etc.).  Some of us don't have the resources to dedicate a machine to Photoshop and printing, and would like to use the machine for other purposes as well.  A machine that can run new software as well as old software has advantages in situations where resources are limited and flexibility is needed.


I'm not trying to tell people which platform to use, I'm not trying to tell people which platform is best.  I'm just trying to have a rational discussion about one of the differences between Apple's and MicroSoft's policies.  Knowing these differences helps people make informed decisions.


Saying the only difference between Mac and Windows is "personal preference" is clearly wrong.  There are many differences, some of which don't matter and some of which do.

Trying to justify the differences may be interesting, but irrelevant.  If Apple abandons legacy software and MicroSoft doesn't, the difference itself is far more important than the reasons why.


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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #102 on: July 11, 2011, 10:07:14 am »

Considering dropping PPC support, I really don't think there's much abruptness at all...


Here's where we have a difference of opinion.  Let's look at how much time elapsed between Apple announcing that PPC support would be dropped, and that drop occurring.

Sorry.  Trick question.   Apple has not yet announced that PPC software support will be discontinued.

Regardless of whether or not it is reasonable for Apple to discontinue such support, the lack of any warning, or published timetable is appalling.

The proper thing would be to announce in advance that PPC software will be going away, and to give a time table.

Software developers have limited resources.  I would rather they spend those resources fixing bugs and improving the software, than rewriting the installer to be Intel native.   If Apple had a timetable, then Software developers could intelligently allocate their limited resources.

My prediction is that in the next week or two, Apple will start selling Macs that don't support PPC, without any prior official warning or announcement.  To me, that's a very abrupt transition.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #103 on: July 11, 2011, 10:14:59 am »

Looking over what you and Jeff are saying, my take on it is there should be less destructive ways of achieving technical progress than that exhibited by some of the behaviour we are seeing in the industry. At some point everything changes and people need to "get with the program"; I think what we're discussing are matters of degree and pacing. When it's aggressively forced, one begins to think that commercial motives excessively over-ride technical merit, thought the two are always intimately related - again the issue being one of balance and degree.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Shane Webster

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2011, 10:58:58 am »

Quote
In your "happy little world" what do you think of the failure of certain device manufacturers to up-date their drivers, rendering their devices unusable within four to five years of purchase?

Oh, don't get me wrong, my happy little world has its fissures (I, of course, meant happy little world in jest, though not the part about ultimately better end user experiences).  If the product came out after Apple transitioned to Intel, the drivers and other software for that printer should have at least been Universal and not PPC.  I know it isn't for some and I think it's a failing on the manufacturer's part.  Regarding general hardware lifespan, I agree with what has been previously said, and that is that I don't think it's unreasonable, as consumers, to expect a certain lifespan for hardware.  What that expected lifespan is varies amongst users and hardware.  I expect a longer period of support for a "pro" printer than from a $79 inkjet printer.  However, even with a "pro" printer, it's going to have a set software update lifespan.  I may not be fond of that, but that's just how it is.  For me, I think printers should have driver updates for the reasonable life of the printer as measured from the date the printer was discontinued.  I think five years of support for a pro printer is not an unreasonable expectation (then again, we recently had to purchase a new version of quickbooks for windows because, one day, Intuit no longer allowed QB 2008 to download banking transactions or properly calculate employment taxes even though the file structure did not change--and that was only three years after we purchased the previous version--and we had to purchase it for the same reason). 

Ultimately, forced obsolescence due to operating system advances or hardware advances is going to be a way of life if I want to use the latest and greatest Apple gadgets and operating systems.  Because there has historically been a seeming lack of communication between Apple and hardware/software providers regarding its new architecture or print pipelines, I wait to purchase a new operating system for my "critical" machines until a .1 release.  If by upgrading I lose functionality that I currently enjoy (as with Lion, even with a .1 release), I'll either install it on a new partition or install it on another machine and decide whether the improvements are worth any frustrations that may ensue.  I already know I'm going to have to partition or run in emulation because I want to continue using PMP, Monaco profiler, and other PPC software.  It really doesn't make me angry because I can still use them by partitioning or I can choose not to upgrade (will I get frustrated and tire of booting from one to the other--probably so get your "I told you so" ready).  I'm much more bothered by waking up one morning and not being able to use a product when nothing has changed with my system and I'm forced to buy a new product through no action on my part--and that's not happening here.

Mark--I had to re-log after typing this and I agree with your last post.
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digitaldog

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2011, 11:29:53 am »

Keep a bootable version of OSX on a separate drive that continues to support the legacy applications and use it when necessary.

Forgive me for going back to “what do we do” (maybe we need a new posting). Seems that the options above would work for occasional work. That is, one would have to decide to ‘move forward’ and upgrade to Lion but have a boot drive of Snow Leopard or earlier for occasional work with PPC software. But it seems that you are now forcing the new OS onto your daily work. If you use Address Book, Mail and so forth, that data will likely be updated, it will be unavailable on the older boot disk which may have legacy data and as such cause syncing issues. You’d certainly have to setup this boot disk for non syncing on MobileMe (iCloud) or for having Time Machine active. Since MobileMe is going away, seems those of us using it will have to move forward to Lion. So the configuration of the boot disk for PPC work needs to be somewhat carefully considered and constructed.
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Scott Martin

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2011, 12:29:14 pm »

Well said Andrew!!
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knweiss

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2011, 03:13:12 pm »

And there in lies Apple's ability to dictate the terms of using a ac. It's an integrated system of hardware and OS. If you want to use a Mac you must adapt to Apple's way of thinking and working.

Personally, I don't blame Apple for dropping Rosetta. All their systems are Intel-only for several years now. However, why does Epson still require Rosetta? Shouldn't all the code be ported by now? For me this is the more important question.

And let me repeat: I wouldn't mind paying a fair price for a decent Lion-compatibly Intel-native driver instead of dumping/selling my Epson 3800 printer.

MSFT would actually be in better shape if they had the guts to pull the trigger on killing off some of their backwards compatibility.

I agree 100%!

Anyway, let's wait and see what happens later this month when Lion finally hits the App Store.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 03:32:11 pm by knweiss »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2011, 03:26:39 pm »

It's a good perspective and a good question. Have you asked Epson and gotten a reply from them?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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knweiss

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2011, 03:27:26 pm »

My prediction is that in the next week or two, Apple will start selling Macs that don't
support PPC, without any prior official warning or announcement.  To me, that's a very
abrupt transition.

Even Snow Leopard is not available for PPC. Yes, SL contains Rosetta but it is not installed by default.

It is know at least since February 2011 that Rosetta won't ship with Lion. Also the Mac App Store is Intel-only since its launch. I would be very surprised if there was no clear roadmap for these features for registered Apple developers (which I am not).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 03:30:45 pm by knweiss »
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2011, 03:32:24 pm »

Personally, I don't blame Apple for dropping Rosetta. All their systems are Intel-only for several years now. However, why does Epson still require Rosetta? Shouldn't all the code be ported by now? For me this is the more important question.
...

Apple has not made any announcement that Rosetta is going away.

Why would you expect Epson (or any software developer) to spend resources on updating perfectly working utility programs when those resources could be spent on improving existing or future products?

Do you really care it a software installation takes a few extra seconds because the installer contains PPC code?

Resources are not infinite.  When a developer expends resources to update old software it takes away from development of new software.

Once Apple announces a timeline for Rosetta to go away, then developers like Epson can make informed decision about which products need to be updated. 

It would be silly to suggest that Epson, or any other developer devote resources to head off a rumored change that may or may not happen.


The great thing about Rosetta is that it already exists.  It's far less work fro Apple to release Rosetta for Lion than for every other software vendor to update their occasional use utilities and installers.

A few people have suggested that it would be a lot of work for Apple to maintain Rosetta because it would require Apple to maintain and test many old system calls.  The flaw in this logic is that all of the PPC system calls also exist natively.  Apple has to maintain these system calls and keep them working or native Intel programs will stop working.

Apple also has to maintain their infrastructure for supporting multiple platforms as the underlying OS code is the same for both Intel and the A4 processor used in iPads and iPhones.   At some point, Apple will abandon Intel (probably for a new version of the A4).  Apple needs to keep it's multiple architecture infrastructure in place for that expected move.


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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2011, 03:39:59 pm »

Even Snow Leopard is not available for PPC. Yes, SL contains Rosetta but it is not installed by default.

It is know at least since February 2011 that Rosetta won't ship with Lion. Also the Mac App Store is Intel-only since its launch. I would be very surprised if there was no clear roadmap for these features for registered Apple developers (which I am not).

Like many printer drivers, Rosetta is not installed by default.  This suggests that these pieces of software are not needed by everyone.  It does not necessarily suggest that support for HP/Epson/etc. printers and Rosetta are going away.

Software must be changed and recompiled to include various DRM features before it can be sold through the Mac App Store.  By definition, legacy software does not have these DRM features, and therefore cannot be sold through the App Store.  Also, the Mac App Store is not available on PPC platforms, so it's not a good choice for distributing PPC software.

As to being very surprised if Apple did not have a clear roadmap for registered developers - consider yourself very surprised.
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joofa

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2011, 03:42:59 pm »

Keep a bootable version of OSX on a separate drive that continues to support the legacy applications and use it when necessary.

True, agree with that, and something that I also do. I use Mac, Windows, and Linux simultaneously, including software development environments and toolchains, on all three of them. I like to stay away from some native OS programs (such as Mac's Address Book, Mail, etc.) and try to find equivalent setups that will work on all 3 OSes. With some careful planning I have found out that it is possible to have a presence on all of these OSes at the same time. I like to work on a Mac and would like to boot in Linux or Windows via VmWare. I have found out that it is most difficult to maintain my stuff on Mac OS (as much as I like to stay on a Mac) as Apple changes stuff frequently, sometimes with utter disregard, and have some strange frameworks, bundles, and library notions that are not needed IMHO, but cause a lot of trouble when compiling, open source software in particular.

What I have found strange is that while it is understandable that Apple might want to deprecate older stuff and introduce new features, however, sometimes I get a feeling that there is a deliberate attempt on sabotaging certain workflows  ;D. Somebody here mentioned that software developers don't have all the time in the world to wrestle with such issues and I fully agree with that. IMHO, Apple could have certainly made things more manageable if they wanted to, or had the sincere desire to.

Joofa
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2011, 03:46:44 pm »

  It's far less work fro Apple to release Rosetta for Lion than for every other software vendor to update their occasional use utilities and installers.


What makes you so sure of this? Do you know the code for both Lion and Rosetta and how they would cohere to produce the result you are looking for?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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knweiss

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2011, 03:56:53 pm »

Software must be changed and recompiled to include various DRM features before it can be sold through the Mac App Store.  By definition, legacy software does not have these DRM features, and therefore cannot be sold through the App Store.  Also, the Mac App Store is not available on PPC platforms, so it's not a good choice for distributing PPC software.

I was mentioning the App Store only as another strong indicator that PPC times are over.

However, yes, I would love to get Epson's software via the App Store in the future. The auto-updates alone would be worth it. And it would be easier for Epson to collect some bucks for the extended driver support. But if I remember correctly 3rd-party drivers can't be distributed on the App Store so far.
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Shane Webster

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2011, 04:04:12 pm »

Quote
Since MobileMe is going away, seems those of us using it will have to move forward to Lion. So the configuration of the boot disk for PPC work needs to be somewhat carefully considered and constructed.

Greatly agree with your last sentence and the only thing I would add is that per the fine print, Apple states "some features of iCloud require. . . OS X Lion."  I've not heard or found anything that clarifies which features require Lion and which features don't (what are the "some" features).  It may be the syncing portions of iCloud will be backwards compatible, but not the pushing of files automatically from one registered device to another.  We'll just have to wait and see (or did they mean "all" though I think they would have just said iCloud will require OS X Lion if that's how it is but that's not what they said).  In any event, your last sentence is very, very true.
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2011, 04:12:57 pm »

What makes you so sure of this? Do you know the code for both Lion and Rosetta and how they would cohere to produce the result you are looking for?

It's informed speculation.

I've been a software developer for quite a long time.  In the 1980's I taught computer science at Carnegie-Mellon University.   I used to travel around the country teaching short courses on Unix and Unix system administration.  I spent a number of years working for a company that provided automated translation of computer software from one computer language to another.  I was manager of programming for a software company where we maintained a single code base for a product that ran on DEC PDP-20's, DEC VAX, Pr1me computers, Perq computers, IBM mainframes, and Macintosh.  I've been an Apple Developer since the late 1980's.  I used to write Mac printer drivers for third party printers.   I've had pre-released versions of Apple hardware in order to write software that would be available at the product's announcement.

I think it's fair to say that I have a reasonable familiarity with what's required in order for Rosetta to work.

Remember, Rosetta doesn't implement arbitrary system calls,  Most of the PPC system calls implemented by Rosetta are also available as Intel native calls.  Apple has to maintain the Intel native versions on order to allow older intel native programs to continue to run.   There is no need to implement any new system calls for PPC, as no one is asking for support of new PPC software.   PPC support is frozen at those system calls available in the PPC version of 10.4.

Apple also has to maintain their multi-architecture infrastructure to support both the Intel and A4 platforms, as well as whatever processor replaces the Intel CPU.

The key technology of Rosetta is the ability to run PPC software, and that obviously exists, as it runs under Snow Leopard.

Taken as a whole, I suspect the effort involved in keeping Rosetta running under Lion, is less than the effort involved in making Quicken 2007 Intel native.

Again, this is just informed speculation from someone who has been in this business a very long time.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2011, 04:58:28 pm »

Thanks for clarifying.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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na goodman

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2011, 05:23:03 pm »

This will be the first time I haven't upgraded an OS in years. But, I just can't see doing it with the color management tools needing rosetta and a number of other installers and programs. That being said, I don't think Apple owns Rosetta. As I recall IBM bought it from the original company a few years ago. So, maybe it can still be an optional install like it was with Snow Leopard. Only time will tell, after the beast (Lion) is released.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2011, 06:06:26 pm »

I'll be in no panic to install Lion either. From what's been revealed about it so far, no big deal in terms of what I need. I think it's a good policy in general: "upgrade when necessary but don't necessarily upgrade.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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