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Author Topic: MAC OSx Lion and printers  (Read 50634 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2011, 08:14:42 am »

Sorry - my phone number is on my site - I get calls from regular users all day.  Still have yet to talk to one thats replacing their PC (or Mac) with a mobile device.....  :)

But to respond to your previous post - dead code is dead code isn't it?  I mean, if it isn't being actively developed (as opposed to being relied upon), it's eventually going to die at some point? 

COBOL anybody?

You mean I should quit programming on a DEC PDP-11 with its nifty paper tape reader?  I thought this was a huge advance over punch cards!
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2011, 09:18:50 am »

Sorry - my phone number is on my site - I get calls from regular users all day.  Still have yet to talk to one thats replacing their PC (or Mac) with a mobile device.....  :)

But to respond to your previous post - dead code is dead code isn't it?  I mean, if it isn't being actively developed (as opposed to being relied upon), it's eventually going to die at some point? 

COBOL anybody?


You are correct that all things die, but why kill them off while they are still healthy?

There is a difference between something no longer being actively developed and it no longer being useful.

I drive a 21 year old car.  It runs fine even though this model has had 3 or 4 major upgrades since I bought it.  Parts are still available.  It's true that it doesn't have a factory GPS, nor a factory installed iPod charger.  In fact it doesn't even have power locks or remote monitoring of tire pressure.   It does get me where I want to go. 

I do not have unlimited resources.  If I were to buy a new car, this would divert resources that could be used elsewhere.

I  have a Canon EF 17-35 f/2.8 L lens.  This lens gets occasional use.  It was long ago discontinued and replaced by a better lens, which itself was discontinued and replaced.  For my needs my old lens works fine. 
If Canon's new camera bodies refused to work with lenses older than 3 years, few would say that was a good thing because it forced everyone to upgrade to newer and better lenses.  Most would simply point out that this made the other brand a better alternative for professionals. 

Why should I spend money, time and effort replacing something that meets my needs?  For instance, the most recent version of Quicken (Quicken 2007) meets 100% of my needs.  Switching to a new program requires time to learn a new system, time to convert the data, and time to manually check and correct the problems introduced by the conversion.    After expending all of this effort, the best case scenario is that the replacement software also meets 100% of my needs, and I break even.  Worst case, it omits some functionality and I am worse off.   Why would I want to expend resources on a project that at best won't leave me better off?

I have a few customers that have legacy web sites that were developed by others in GoLive CS2.  They use a fancy GoLive plugin to build a fancy graphical navigation menu that they love.  Neither GoLive nor the menu plugin are being developed.  The customer calls me every few months and requests a minor change or two to the web site.  I fire up GoLive CS2, make their change, and 5 minutes later everyone is happy.  Eventually this customer will want to sped the money on a new web site.  They want to be the ones who decide when that expenditure will occur.

Explain to me the business rationale as to why I should spend time and effort in moving development of this web site to a current development environment?  I could tell the customer that I will no longer maintain his site as GoLive had been discontinued.  What the customer would hear is that I use old tools, and I won't upgrade.  I can't just blow this customer off as I get a lot of other work from this customer.   So for my business, the loss of being able to occasionally run GoLive CS2 (a power PPC program) would be quite expensive.   

After examining my options, it appears that my best course of action is to try to find a Windows version of GoLive CS2, and move my accounting to Quicken for Windows.

This is my point.  From a business point of view, it appears that choosing Windows makes more financial sense than choosing Mac.    This has little to do with which platform is better, it has to do with which platform can be relied on for many years.


I am not against upgrading when there is a reason to do so.  I had an Epson 2200 printer that was in perfect shape.  I upgraded to an Epson 3880 because it gives me better prints, costs less to operate, and allows me to reduce the number of prints I have to have done by an outside lab.  The Epson 3880 has made my customers happier, and increased my profits.  There was a sound business reason for replacing a perfectly functioning 2200.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2011, 09:45:03 am »

You are correct that all things die, but why kill them off while they are still healthy?

.........................

Explain to me the business rationale as to why I should spend time and effort in moving development of this web site to a current development environment? 


What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. I too am in favour of up-grading stuff when there are strong substantive reasons for doing so. I also like using "legacy" materials when they are still serving their purposes just fine and the incremental value of up-grading them is much less than the incremental cost of doing so. But that's my perspective as a consumer. It's not the only perspective at play. The other perspective at play is that of the providers. They have a business rationale for implementing aggressive planned obsolescence be it the OS or host software, or not committing resources to up-grading host software just because it is needed for an OS up-grade, and some of them are simply more shameless about it than others.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2011, 10:33:16 am »

What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. I too am in favour of up-grading stuff when there are strong substantive reasons for doing so. I also like using "legacy" materials when they are still serving their purposes just fine and the incremental value of up-grading them is much less than the incremental cost of doing so. But that's my perspective as a consumer. It's not the only perspective at play. The other perspective at play is that of the providers. They have a business rationale for implementing aggressive planned obsolescence be it the OS or host software, or not committing resources to up-grading host software just because it is needed for an OS up-grade, and some of them are simply more shameless about it than others.


There are two separate questions which should not be confused.

The first question is it reasonable for Apple to aggressively enforce planned obsolescence?  There are pros and cons either way.  There are both long term and short term issues that should be examined. 

However whether or not Apple is justified in their decision is not what I was talking about.

My position is that given Apple's choice to aggressively enforce planned obsolescence, is it reasonable for a business to invest in buying Apple hardware?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2011, 10:52:21 am »

It depends on the relative quality of the hardware. Also recall we can install Parallels and Windows on a Mac and it works fine, so a combination of Apple hardware and Windows accessibility is feasible. But if you want to use Windows and you find a PC brand you like as well as or more than Apple, go for that. Some of this is personal preference, and some objective.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2011, 11:43:20 am »

It depends on the relative quality of the hardware. Also recall we can install Parallels and Windows on a Mac and it works fine, so a combination of Apple hardware and Windows accessibility is feasible. But if you want to use Windows and you find a PC brand you like as well as or more than Apple, go for that. Some of this is personal preference, and some objective.

My personal preference would be to use Apple hardware and OS-X.

Given Apple's track record of dropping products without prior warning, and dropping compatibility with existing software, I a trying to find a justification for spending the additional time and effort required to keep using Apple gear.

Yes, ease of use is a factor, and so is personal preference.  Do you really think that these justify the increased time, effort and expense of upgrading to Lion and opposed to switching to Windows?

Nothing would make me happier than Apple including Rosetta with Lion.  Although they have not officially announced this, it appears that Lion will not support PPC applications.  If Apple follows past practice, then I will need to either abandon old software, or switch to windows in order to maintain compatibility with new hardware.  If I don't switch to Lion now, Apple will force me to upgrade (or switch to Windows) on my next iPad, or iPhone purchase.

I'm not saying Apple isn't justified.  Like the Apple TV, Mac is now just  a niche product for them (although the Apple TV has a future).  Apple makes far more revenue from iTunes, iPods, and iPhones than it ever has with the Mac.


And yes, we can install Windows on a Mac.  Maintaining both is more work than maintaining one.  Yet another increased cost.



I would love to hear your suggestions on how to solve the issue that all PPC legacy software will cease to work with Lion.

What would you suggest as the best path to continue using Apple hardware/software while trying to control costs?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2011, 02:43:01 pm »





I would love to hear your suggestions on how to solve the issue that all PPC legacy software will cease to work with Lion.

What would you suggest as the best path to continue using Apple hardware/software while trying to control costs?


Keep a bootable version of OSX on a separate drive that continues to support the legacy applications and use it when necessary.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2011, 03:46:41 pm »

Keep a bootable version of OSX on a separate drive that continues to support the legacy applications and use it when necessary.

Unlike the windows world, new Mac hardware won't boot old operating systems.  Any Mac sold after next month won't boot snow leopard.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2011, 03:55:08 pm »

Is there no virtualization software that would get around this?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2011, 04:34:26 pm »

Is there no virtualization software that would get around this?

Correct.

Apple's license for Snow Leopard does not allow it to be virtualized.

Most virtualization software for the Mac passes the actual hardware model to the guest operating system.  Snow Leopard refuses to run if the hardware is not specifically supported, and new hardware is now specifically supported.

It might be possible to get around these issues, but to do so legally would require Apple's cooperation.  If Appe had any interest in preserving the functionality of legacy software, we wouldn't need to expend effort on finding work arounds.
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John.Murray

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2011, 07:15:33 pm »

Is there no virtualization software that would get around this?

On a Mac, yes - you can run previous versions of Intel Supported OS X using Oracle's Virtual Box.
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2011, 07:46:18 pm »

On a Mac, yes - you can run previous versions of Intel Supported OS X using Oracle's Virtual Box.

According to the documentation at Virtualbox.org, VirtualBox will not let you run OS-X on a Mac unless that build of OS-X would run natively on that Mac.

Quote
Only CPUs known and tested by Apple are supported. As a result, if your Intel CPU is newer than the build of Mac OS X Server, or if you have a non-Intel CPU, it will most likely panic during bootup with an "Unsupported CPU" exception. It is generally best to use the Mac OS X Server DVD that came with your Apple hardware.

Even if it would work, isn't this a violation of Apple's licensing agreement?

I though only the $500 to $1,000 server version was allowed to run under virtualization.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2011, 07:57:39 pm »

That quote is for Mac OSX Server. What about Mac OSX for home use on a desktop?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2011, 10:47:25 pm »

That quote is for Mac OSX Server. What about Mac OSX for home use on a desktop?


The non-server version is not supported at all.  If it were supported, it would be a violation of Apple's license.

I for one don't feel like getting into a legal fight with Apple, particularly in a situation where the law is on their side.

This is what the manual has to say about installing Mac OS X as a "guest" operating system:
Quote
3.1.1 Mac OS X Server guests
Starting with version 3.2, VirtualBox has experimental support for Mac OS X Server guests. This allows you to install and execute unmodified versions of Mac OS X Server on supported host hardware.


There is no mention of any support for the non-server version.



Apple is very good at getting the details right.  When Apple doesn't want you running your legacy software, there are few choices.
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Farmer

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2011, 02:00:16 am »

It's the same restriction that stops you from legalling running OS X on a generic PC - a so-called Hackintosh, for example.
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Phil Brown

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2011, 08:13:04 am »

That quote is for Mac OSX Server. What about Mac OSX for home use on a desktop?

Apple allows OS X Lion virtualization. Quote: "... users can run up to two additional instances of OS X Lion on their same machine without a need for extra licenses."
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mfryd

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2011, 08:16:16 am »

Apple allows OS X Lion virtualization. "... users can run up to two additional instances of OS X Lion on their same machine without a need for extra licenses."


But Lion doesn't include Rosetta so this doesn't help with the issue of running Legacy PPC software.
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knweiss

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2011, 08:43:30 am »

With the introduction of OSX 7 Lion  Apple is dropping  Rosetta (the emulation mode program for PowerPC code)  and I have found so far that on my Epson 3800 some of the support code is PowerPC code only.  The utilities in the LFP Remote panel is an example.  An Epson support person said we just have to stay on Snow Leopard if we need to use the code.

No, I won't let a printer dictate which OS version I'm going to use. I'll rather sell the printer and switch printer brand (forever) instead.

If I (as a prosumer) am buying a professional printer like the Epson 3800 (which I own) I intend to use it for 5-6 years and I expect the company to stand behind and support the product during this time - yes even on new OS releases. I wouldn't even mind paying a fair price for a driver update. Still relying on PPC code (and thereby Rosetta) on the Apple platform in 2011 is not acceptable for a professional and expensive product. This is no $50 printer.

Why are new OS releases always is such a big surprise for some companies? The Apple developer program exists for a reason and IMHO it's not unreasonable to expect working drivers soon after the launch of a new OS version. At least that is what I expect from the brand of my next photo printer.

Given the fact the the OS X Lion update will be so easy (by using the OS X App Store online update) I'm wondering if Epson will really maintain this point of view and disappoint many of their customers.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2011, 08:58:23 am »

I'm wondering if Epson will really maintain this point of view and disappoint many of their customers.

If they do, the customers can always migrate to other printer manufacturers who will upgrade their drivers. Canon is giving Epson a good run for its money these days. I think you can expect Epson to maintain current drivers for current models, but not necessarily for legacy models. The 3880 is not a legacy model.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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knweiss

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Re: MAC OSx Lion and printers
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2011, 09:02:21 am »

I think you can expect Epson to maintain current drivers for current models, but not necessarily for legacy models. The 3880 is not a legacy model.

As I wrote: I expect to be able to use a prof printer for 5-6 years (on a current OS version). A prof printer should become obsolete after 5-6 years and not by the release of its successor.
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