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Author Topic: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now  (Read 77459 times)

ChuckT

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2011, 03:28:10 pm »

I've worked, briefly, with i1, PMP and Monaco.

Based on that limited and highly sujective sampling as well as Andrew Rodneys review I think there's still along way to go before XRite reaches "primetime" status. Also I really, really dislike software that makes me jump through hoops and feel I should goosestep and salute.  ;D

cvt
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Christopher

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2011, 04:04:10 pm »

I'm not surprised at all. I mean X-Rite did not mange to get Monaco Profiler working on Vista or windows 7 ..... The best answer I got, well you could by PMP or a new computer running windows XP .....
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Christopher Hauser
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Scott Martin

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2011, 10:20:06 pm »

You can make the comparison? I am interested in your opinion. This is RGB ICC profiles measured to Canon iPF8300 Adobe plugin. iPF8300. Thank You.
bas - basICColor Print
PM - Profile Maker
i1Profiler

If you're wondering how RGB profiles from i1Profiler compares to the other guys, i1Profiler wins hands down (I've done lots of careful comparisons). The smoothness and perceptual rendering are incredible. Only Monaco Profiler can come close.
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Scott Martin
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2011, 10:28:49 pm »

If you're wondering how RGB profiles from i1Profiler compares to the other guys, i1Profiler wins hands down (I've done lots of careful comparisons). The smoothness and perceptual rendering are incredible. Only Monaco Profiler can come close.

Scott - I'm curious to know:

How did you do the comparison? Prints? What subject matter? Would it be feasible to scan some prints that show the differences and post them? I'm wondering whether the differences would remain visible through such a process?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Scott Martin

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2011, 10:35:11 pm »

How did you do the comparison? Prints? What subject matter? Would it be feasible to scan some prints that show the differences and post them? I'm wondering whether the differences would remain visible through such a process?

Lots and lots of prints using different profiling options and software configurations using a variety of subject matter (including my evaluation image of course). I've been doing this at lots of photo labs in particular and let them put the profiles to the test in demanding real - world situations. I've got huge stacks of prints - too much to scan and convey... You can come to the studio and rifle through them with me if you like. :-] Nothing you can't do yourself now... Send some files to digitalprolab.com for starters.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2011, 10:59:43 pm »

I'm in Toronto and you're in Texas. If I ever find my way to Texas when you are there I may take you up on that offer! The only profiling package I own - and it works well - is the old Pulse Elite system. I certainly wouldn't be buying these higher end systems just for the sake of experimenting with them. I'm well aware that often the only way to see fine differences between alternatives is to print the files using these alternatives and examine them close-up. I was hoping it would be possible to convey an impression - if the differences are substantial enough - by taking one revealing image, printing it with MP, PMP and i1P, then scanning the prints and posting them on a website for viewing. It could be that all these transformations would obscure the differences, but perhaps not completely if the differences were large enough - why I was asking. While your extensive experience with this lends credibility to what you are observing, it is natural to want to see for oneself if it's somehow feasible.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Scott Martin

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2011, 09:35:54 am »

I'm in Toronto and you're in Texas. If I ever find my way to Texas when you are there I may take you up on that offer!

I actually get to Toronto for one-on-one consulting, plus I have people that come to my studio (from places like Stockholm, Sydney, Mexico City, etc) for 1-3 days of intense training. This combined with making images in the Hill Country or Big Bend region can be really fun... But I get your point!

The only profiling package I own - and it works well - is the old Pulse Elite system. I certainly wouldn't be buying these higher end systems just for the sake of experimenting with them.

Not a bad system! i1P's perceptual rendering, like Monaco Profiler before it, is exceptional. With it you'd see better edge gamut saturation and improved smoothness in a granger rainbow.

You could potentially measure your targets in ColorPort and drag and drop your CGATS file onto i1P for profile generation in i1P. Or you could send your CGATS file to an i1P owner for remote generation. Or you could just use an i1P remote profiling service to try before you buy. You've got to see it for yourself, as you say. Seeing is believing.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 08:36:00 am by Onsight »
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Ethan_Hansen

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2011, 02:33:22 pm »

Mark,

If you want a set of comparison profiles, email me one of your measurement files with spectral data. I'll build you profiles with PMP5, Profiler, and i1Profile using the default settings. It's been many years since I last pulled the Pulse out of storage and used it. I do not recall the default file format - do you need to use ToolCrib to read spectral data? Also, i1Profiler is optimized for X-Rite's new XRGA calibration standard. The Pulse probably adheres reasonably closely to it, but I can't say for certain. In any event, the offer stands.

We have put i1Profiler through its paces since the retail version arrived. I agree with Scott in that the profile quality is, in general, superior to what one gets from either Profiler or PMP. The output is very close to Profiler's. Scum--dot problems are gone, but the main benefit appears to come from (1) the ability to measure targets containing patches other than the default Profiler sets, and (2) having spectral data to work from rather than simple LAB values. X-Rite also increased the CLUT table resolution from 33 points on a side to 37.

When we measured a 729 patch set (standard Profiler medium target) and compared output from Monaco Profiler to i1Profiler, prints made with Rel. Color were extremely close to each other both visually (in the case of actual images) and numerically (measured from synthetic color ramps). Prints made using Perceptual rendering (with necessary tweaks to the default settings in both software packages) were visually smoother and handled transition into out-of-gamut colors better. The differences were visible, but not dramatic. Go to a larger target patch set, particularly one including patches covering problem output areas, and you see more improvement with i1Profiler.

Profiles for papers having significant OBC levels tend to come out distinctly better with i1Profiler than Monaco Profiler. Profiler requires using a UV filter for these stocks, while i1Profiler contains at least some of the OBC compensation algorithms from PMP5. I say "appears" because there is nothing in the so-called documentation about this, nor are there any options to enable or disable OBC in the software. i1Profiler does contain a special OBC module, but it requires an i1iSis and the workflow is not of much use except for profiling your personal printer (can't use saved measurements from previous profiles, so you need to perform the entire print-measure-profile-print new target-evaluate-reprofile sequence at one time).

Overall, i1Profiler produces results that visually read as superior to the past software and are measurably more accurate (Rel. Color) and smoother (RC and Perceptual). The differences are not dramatic nor are they as large as one would have expected for half a decade of development time by the combined forces of X-Rite and GretagMacbeth. My real complaint is with the workflow; it owes all too much to the ColorMunki. There simply is no reasonable way to process a number of profiles with varied construction options. Profile editing, data analysis and manipulation (e.g. MeasureTool), and critical capabilities such as specifying a black generation curve (a must for serious CMYK work) are absent. The blizzard of new file formats, and inconsistent support amongst them, make backwards compatibility less than good. Andrew's assessment that i1Profiler is Beta software hits the mark.

One other thing I should mention for anyone planning on using i1Profiler as part of a profiling service: Read the license carefully. The usage rights are curtailed from what ProfileMaker and i1Match allowed, and you are limited to providing a total of 50 profiles per calendar year. It's a rare day when we make fewer than 50 profiles. Exceeding these limits requires obtaining a separate license.

digitaldog

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2011, 04:59:07 pm »

One other thing I should mention for anyone planning on using i1Profiler as part of a profiling service: Read the license carefully. The usage rights are curtailed from what ProfileMaker and i1Match allowed, and you are limited to providing a total of 50 profiles per calendar year. It's a rare day when we make fewer than 50 profiles. Exceeding these limits requires obtaining a separate license.

Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?
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keith_cooper

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2011, 05:47:44 pm »

Profiles for papers having significant OBC levels tend to come out distinctly better with i1Profiler than Monaco Profiler. Profiler requires using a UV filter for these stocks, while i1Profiler contains at least some of the OBC compensation algorithms from PMP5. I say "appears" because there is nothing in the so-called documentation about this, nor are there any options to enable or disable OBC in the software. i1Profiler does contain a special OBC module, but it requires an i1iSis and the workflow is not of much use except for profiling your personal printer (can't use saved measurements from previous profiles, so you need to perform the entire print-measure-profile-print new target-evaluate-reprofile sequence at one time).

I note however that you can save most stages of the sequence (target, measurement data, OBC chart) and use it to produce multiple versions of a profile - have I got this wrong?  (I've asked about this in another thread)

Certainly agree about the vagueness of 'documentation' ;-)
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Christopher

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2011, 06:19:05 pm »

Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?

X-Rite is really getting on my nerv... I probably wouldn't even use the new i1 software if my good old Monaco Profiler would actually run ...
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Christopher Hauser
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Ethan_Hansen

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2011, 06:45:26 pm »

Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?

The weird thing is that I cannot find the EULA anywhere after installing the software on Windows nor does i1Profiler offer any way I can find of displaying the license. Apparently, if you install the software without copying the license from the text displayed by the installer, you are in violation of the license you agreed to:
Quote
This Agreement is your proof of license to exercise the rights granted herein and must be retained by You.

As Andrew mentioned, there are other restrictions on any distribution of profiles:
Quote
(c) You may provide a Licensed Profile to a third party as part of Your profiling services for such third party only if:
      (i)    Such Licensed Profile is for personal use by such third party only on a specific input, display or output device owned by the third party for which the Licensed Profile was created;
      (ii)   Your profiling services are conducted on-site for the third party (i.e., physically at the third party’s facility) and not using any other method or communication technique, including but not limited to, Internet-based communications and/or services; and
      (iii)   The maximum number of Licensed Profiles provided to all third parties by You pursuant to this Agreement within a given calendar year does not exceed fifty (50) Licensed Profiles;
You specifically acknowledge and agree that nothing herein shall be deemed to permit You to provide Licensed Profiles to any third party for distribution with and/or in conjunction with the distribution, promotion and/or sale of, such third party’s or any other party’s input, display or output device.
Item 2 limits one to performing on-site consulting only. You may even need to build the profiles  using the client's own computers, as the EULA goes on to say "You may not Yourself or through any other person, do any of the following: ... (iii) distribute to any third party a Licensed Profile in any way or form, whether by networks, electronic bulletin boards, web sites or otherwise."

The EULA does indeed state that "This Agreement contains the entire agreement between You and X-Rite with respect to the Software and Licensed Profiles and supersedes all prior agreements and understandings, oral or written, with respect to such Software and Licensed Profiles." Install at your own risk.

There is anther section that strikes me as particularly Orwellian:
Quote
YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE SOFTWARE MAY CONTAIN SOFTWARE PROCEDURES, SOFTWARE CODE OR OTHER MECHANISMS THAT MAY BE AUTOMATICALLY AND/OR REMOTELY ACTUATED TO ENFORCE USE RESTRICTIONS AND THAT MAY DISABLE FUNCTIONALITY OF THE SOFTWARE AND PREVENT ACCESS TO DATA USING THE SOFTWARE, E.G., AT THE END OF ANY EVALUATION PERIOD, IF APPLICABLE, OR UPON VIOLATION OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT.
The moral here being, I presume, make sure your firewall is a good one.

I should mention that the above snippits are the copyright of X-Rite. Hopefully I do not fall afoul of the dictate that "You may not copy the written materials accompanying the Software..."

feppe

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2011, 06:59:59 pm »

Seems to be de rigueur (Rob, I got it right this time!) for the lawyers at many software companies: write the most restrictive and most egregious EULA you can imagine, and see if clients complain. If they do, play dumb: "we didn't really mean what's written, we mean well and it's for your own protection," which reads "we don't even read our own legalese, our lawyers mean well and it's for their own protection." Or tone it down until the customers stop complaining - and you still end up with one that's an order of a magnitude more restrictive than previous generation. Boiling a frog, slippery slope, lawyer fees are a form of taxation, etc.

Then add copy "protection" which only punishes paying customers while pirates get an unrestricted version without hassles to complete the insanity.

Combine customer complacency and ignorance with potential abuse of monopoly power and this is what you end up with.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 07:04:55 pm by feppe »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2011, 07:54:41 pm »

Mark,

If you want a set of comparison profiles, email me one of your measurement files with spectral data. I'll build you profiles with PMP5, Profiler, and i1Profile using the default settings. It's been many years since I last pulled the Pulse out of storage and used it. I do not recall the default file format - do you need to use ToolCrib to read spectral data? Also, i1Profiler is optimized for X-Rite's new XRGA calibration standard. The Pulse probably adheres reasonably closely to it, but I can't say for certain. In any event, the offer stands.



Ethan - thanks very much for the offer. I'm already into one such exercise courtesy of another Forum member, so I shall complete that process first. But it is very good of you to offer and I appreciate it. Meanwhile there are huge general problems with XRite. First will be to see how good this package really is, then if I feel motivated to buy it, I'd have to take a hard look at the various X-Rite-specific nuisance factors to determine whether it makes sense.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2011, 08:30:06 pm »

As I see it to buy into this software without having any previous version (or associated hardware) is a minimum of $1399 US for i1Photo Pro.  This contrasts with the $350 I paid for the ColorMunki setup.  While everyone is talking about how the new software compares with older products isn't the real question how it compares to ColorMunki given the rather large price differential?  Those results would be most interesting (though I presume there would be measurable differences, the larger question is whether there are visible differences in a print).  I note that some of the promotional information on X-Rite's site talks about how some of the CM technology was integrated into this new product.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2011, 09:06:51 pm »

As I see it to buy into this software without having any previous version (or associated hardware) is a minimum of $1399 US for i1Photo Pro.  This contrasts with the $350 I paid for the ColorMunki setup.  While everyone is talking about how the new software compares with older products isn't the real question how it compares to ColorMunki given the rather large price differential?  Those results would be most interesting (though I presume there would be measurable differences, the larger question is whether there are visible differences in a print).  I note that some of the promotional information on X-Rite's site talks about how some of the CM technology was integrated into this new product.

Alan, as there are different market segments I think there are four lines of interest and associated questions: (1) the one you are interested in; (2) all the people who own MP and PMP and may have an up-grading interest from those products; (3) people like me using legacy software and thinking of an up-grade; (4) people who own no profiling software and wish to buy SOMETHING.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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pfigen

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2011, 11:35:39 pm »

I think that for those considering upgrading from Monaco or PM, it's a huge problem that X-Rite wants to retroactively alter the license on your old software, restricting its legal use. It seems to me that part of the original purchase price included that license. Is this the price we're going to have to pay for upgrading from our current packages. The licensing agreement alone could be a deal breaker for a lot of people, particularly anyone making profiles for anyone other than themselves. I'm not sure how exactly they would know if you were violating their terms or how many people just never bother to read them and go about their business as they always have. Didn't the industry go through a big licensing language thing a few years ago. This seems like a huge step in the wrong direction.
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djoy

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2011, 06:06:03 am »

Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?

Good grief. This is news to me, how would one know this without first buying the product?

This basically makes the use or purchase of i1Profiler completely untenable if you are or were intending to provide a profiling service.

And overwriting your previous product's EULA? Is that even legal? Surely this could only be enforceable if you purchase the upgrade, and even then it's a stretch....

We need some enterprising company to enter this market and provide a decent product with a common sense EULA, the lack of competition has obviously made X-Rite go insane.
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keith_cooper

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2011, 06:21:56 am »

Good grief. This is news to me, how would one know this without first buying the product?

I had to re-run the installer to find the license text. I also had to re-run the PM5 installer to find its EULA - where there are some restrictions, but not at the level that comes with i1 Profiler (particularly the 50 profile limit)

For info I've put a copy of it at:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/profiling/i1_profiler_overview.html#license_agreement
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djoy

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Re: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now
« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2011, 07:49:48 am »

On 20 Dec 2010, at 19:49, Bob Binder @ X-Rite wrote:

> We received the following message from you.
 
> I am sure that our intention is not to create any havoc for our customers. Can you provide me the details of your situation so that I can have it addressed. i.e. what was the bundle that you purchased,
> and any other pertinent details affecting the situation that you are in. If there is something that we have overlooked, we need to address it.
 
> Thank you,
> Bob Binder (Worldwide Support Program Manager, X-Rite)

Bob,

What I was referring to was the unscrupulous way that X-Rite had orphaned their paying customers, i.e. those who purchased Profile Maker Pro 5 bundles only to have their products discontinued and replaced with the same software but with a different name, i.e. Profile Maker Platinum, further then that X-Rite would not permit those customers to upgrade to the new product without having paid a large sum to "rename" their purchases.

I am aware that X-Rite has finally rescinded this unconscionable policy and made all version of PM5 eligible, but only due to public pressure.

Regrettably it seems there is no low to which X-Rite will not stoop, and you have instead replaced that unprincipled tactic with one even more sinister, namely the i1Profiler EULA.

This oppressive legal document renders your new flagship product completely unusable ( and early reports suggest it's not of release quality anyway ).

The End User License Agreement prevents the use of i1Profiler for providing a profiling service, precisely what the most of the demographic for this manner of tool would need it for, much like selling a hammer but precluding it's use for banging in nails.

i1Profiler is (meant to be) a professional tool not an end user one, and professionals have businesses which provide profiling services, the fundamental mainstay of their business. Furthermore, your license agreement places a limit on the number of customers a professional may have during a year (50 customers assuming they only required one profile each). Worse still, the license states you cannot conduct your business, or even contact your customers via Email, and I quote :

"(ii) Your profiling services are conducted on-site for the third party (i.e., physically at the third party’s facility) and not using any other method or communication technique, including but not limited to, Internet-based communications and/or services"

A EULA which prevents you from using the internet in the running of your business? Seriously? Should I look forward to the imminent release of a coal-fired steam powered spectrophotometer? Should I begin training a brace of carrier pigeons to facilitate speedy communications with my customers?

If this wasn't exploitative enough, the license further goes on to supersede the license agreements for your previous products, thus removing the tools upon which those professionals already built their business and customer base. We must hope this doesn't set a precedent, or I might reasonably expect a communique from DeWalt informing me I've already drilled enough holes this year with the drill I bought 6 years ago and I must stop using it.

By allowing your lawyers to run riot with the EULA you have made your product completely untenable, by buying your product anyone running a profiling business would be required to cease trading.

Responses such as "it doesn't really mean that" are no help here, this is a legal agreement, it means precisely what it says, if you mean something different, change the document.

As it stands, you've released a product with such officious restrictions that it's nonviable to purchase, I implore you (X-Rite) to come to your senses and sort out this mess, I would like to purchase and use this software but cannot under these circumstances, I am not alone. I would imagine there's a not unreasonable chance such an oppressive EULA would get thrown out of court anyway, this needs fixing. When you alienate your customers in this way they look for alternatives, and whilst you may currently enjoy a monopoly, a market consisting of unhappy customers is a ripe opportunity to others.

Yours sincerely,

Darren Joy
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