Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: yannb on March 28, 2011, 04:20:41 pm
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Hello,
The new i1Profiler software is available for download now, go to http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=1397&Action=support&SoftwareID=1064
Without the proper license, profiling options are limited of course.
Regards,
Yann
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At last!!!
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Strange website. No pricing. Is it free? :-)
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Strange website. No pricing. Is it free? :-)
As free as the lunch down at the corner diner!
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Needless to say.
I love these websites that think their too cool to confront people with anything like money on the first click.
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The software IS free.
The dongle that makes it function, not so much.
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And a dongle no less - more crap to stick into my computer every time I want to use it. Good grief. And why don't they jut state the need for the dongle and the price on the product page? It's beneath their dignity even though they'll gladly take the money at some point anyhow? Ridiculous.
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My first purchase from these guys. Putting together a package for icc profiling for our print studio.
With the i1 profiler will we need the profilemaker platinum 5 ? Have not seen any bundle packages with the new i1 profiler. Have had a call into X rite but no response.
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And a dongle no less - more crap to stick into my computer every time I want to use it.
Well, better than nasty activation codes and such that tie the software to a particular machine....some of us need the flexibility of moving a piece of software to whatever machine we need to use it....dongles are welcome in that case. I used to HATE dongles...until machine-specific protection schemes came along! ;)
Terry
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To clarify the dongle issue:
X-Rite is not taking away or overwriting any existing i1Pro i1Match, ProfileMakerv5 or Monaco Profiler dongles. Users get to continue using their legacy solutions if desired. However, X-Rite will probably verify that the original dongle is legitimate, and eligible for upgrade.
X-Rite will upgrade an i1Pro or ProfileMaker dongle through the i1Profiler software interface. Users will purchase either Upgrade A or Upgrade B as applicable, and when they receive the upgrade, the box will include an activation code . X-Rite will not use the existing upgrade paths in i1Diagnostics or License Tool.
MonacoPROFILER users will have to call an X-Rite Service Center, where X-Rite will verify that their existing dongle is valid. They will then receive their new i1Publish dongle by mail within 5 business days.
More info here: http://www2.chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50136&pid=10449 (http://www2.chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=50136&pid=10449)
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And a dongle no less - more crap to stick into my computer every time I want to use it. Good grief. And why don't they jut state the need for the dongle and the price on the product page? It's beneath their dignity even though they'll gladly take the money at some point anyhow? Ridiculous.
It seems that the licence can also be saved in i1pro memory as well - just like i1match modules.
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With the i1 profiler will we need the profilemaker platinum 5 ?
Only if you decide you want to build scanner or digital camera ICC profiles. i1P doesn’t generate em.
Or you want to use some of the functionality in PMP that isn’t in i1P. Other than that, no.
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I used to HATE dongles...until machine-specific protection schemes came along! ;)
The Adobe scheme has worked pretty well for me (activate and dis-activate) unless you don’t have net access and even then, I was able to get it to work with a phone call.
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Only if you decide you want to build scanner or digital camera ICC profiles. i1P doesn’t generate em.
Or you want to use some of the functionality in PMP that isn’t in i1P. Other than that, no.
Thank You Andrew.
Now with the money I saved I can get the i1iSis.
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Keep in mind, that this FIRST iteration of i1Profiler is called 'Publish'. So, i1Profiler Publish, and it is positioned as heir replacement to the main profiling components from ProfileMaker and Monaco Profiler. However, as Andrew pointed out, Publish is a bit neutered (right now) compared to the traditional 'Platinum' suites. It includes Monitor calibration and for Output it includes RGB, CMYK, and CMYK+4. But no Editor, ColorPicker, MeasureTool, ColorPort, Scanner, Digital Camera. So, keep your old package for these things.
Also, there are two other packages called Photo and Basic. Add an i1Pro to any of these packages and they are called: i1Publish Pro, i1Photo Pro, i1Basic Pro.
More at X-Rite: http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=200 (http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=200)
Hope that helps.
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However, as Andrew pointed out, Publish is a bit neutered (right now) compared to the traditional 'Platinum' suites.
Ouch! No dog likes the idea of being neutered (its often necessary).
There are a slew or reasons why existing users of either or both PROFILER and PMP will want to continue to use some parts of these packages. More details in the near future.
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Dongle? Really, those are still around?
Once again pirates get the easy-to-use version while paying customers have to deal with the hassle of copy-"protection."
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Keep in mind, that this FIRST iteration of i1Profiler is called 'Publish'. So, i1Profiler Publish, and it is positioned as heir replacement to the main profiling components from ProfileMaker and Monaco Profiler. However, as Andrew pointed out, Publish is a bit neutered (right now) compared to the traditional 'Platinum' suites. It includes Monitor calibration and for Output it includes RGB, CMYK, and CMYK+4. But no Editor, ColorPicker, MeasureTool, ColorPort, Scanner, Digital Camera. So, keep your old package for these things.
Also, there are two other packages called Photo and Basic. Add an i1Pro to any of these packages and they are called: i1Publish Pro, i1Photo Pro, i1Basic Pro.
More at X-Rite: <http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=200>
Hope that helps.
It's a heap of confusion. Too bad these guys have a monopoly on this business.
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And, just remember if you move to OS 10.7 none of these old PPC applications like Profilemaker Pro or MonacoProfiler are going to run.
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True, unless Apple decides to leave Rosetta as part of the OS.
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It's a heap of confusion. Too bad these guys have a monopoly on this business.
They don't - you even use one of basICColor products. And the existance of ArgyllCMS shouldn't also be ignored.
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True, unless Apple decides to leave Rosetta as part of the OS.
That’s my understanding (no Rosetta). That could be a major issue for many of us.
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There will be a lot of apps that won't work with 10.7. If you want to check what PowerPC apps you have, go to About This Mac/More Info/Software/Application under the Kind column.
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Overview of the Activation/Registration process within i1Profiler:
1. Purchase UPGRADE A or B from an X-Rite reseller. You will receive an UPGRADE CODE inside the software box or sent via email.
2. Connect your PMv5 or Monaco HASP dongle or your i1Pro
3. Enter the Upgrade Code
4. Enter your email address
5. Enter Registration information (optional)
The Activate button will appear when everything is complete. There is a manual process as well for those eligible for Free upgrade immediately. See next post.
Screen capture attached.
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If you are eligible for a Free upgrade (you bought PMv5, MP, i1Match product after April 1st, 2010 AND Registered the product), then you may be able to acquire an Activation Code immediately.
Although its hard to read the light gray text on darker gray back ground, I've attached a screen capture within i1Profiler's Manual Activation screen that has X-Rites phone numbers to call for an Activation Code. I've had some customers report of getting a code back within an hour. Good luck!
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10.6 didn't include the PPC.
They (and the software) still work just fine though.
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10.6 didn't include the PPC.
They (and the software) still work just fine though.
But it could access Rosetta which 10.7 will not.
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Right. Unless Apple decides to make a change and leave Rosetta in 10.7.
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Right. Unless Apple decides to make a change and leave Rosetta in 10.7.
I sure hope they do, or someone comes up with a solution. From the readings I’ve seen recently (one yesterday suggesting we might see 10.7 early), nothing to indicate this will happen.
Sorry to go OT, but in the context of this thread, moving to 10.7 without the ability to use MeasureTool and occasionally ProfileEditor would be a burden. I guess a dual-boot?
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My understanding is that Rosetta will be gone with 10.7
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They don't - you even use one of basICColor products. And the existance of ArgyllCMS shouldn't also be ignored.
BasicColor is fine for displays. Argyll - no time for arcane applications with non-intuitive UI.
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And so, for any of you beta testers now freed from the NDA shackles, any new flavors of perceptual rendering to write home about? Or is PM5 classic, chroma, and/or colorful still competitive perceptual rendering algorithms compared to what you are seeing with the new Xrite package? Digressing a little, is it just me or does Xrite have some of the most convoluted marketing methods in the entire world? I can never figure out what goes with what package, what upgrade path I'm eligible for, etc. etc. And they sure are shy about telling us the price!!!
cheers,
Mark
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And so, for any of you beta testers now freed from the NDA shackles, any new flavors of perceptual rendering to write home about? Or is PM5 classic, chroma, and/or colorful still competitive perceptual rendering algorithms compared to what you are seeing with the new Xrite package? Digressing a little, is it just me or does Xrite have some of the most convoluted marketing methods in the entire world? I can never figure out what goes with what package, what upgrade path I'm eligible for, etc. etc. And they sure are shy about telling us the price!!!
cheers,
Mark
No, of course it's not just you. They're hopeless. Just a gawdawful mess.
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And so, for any of you beta testers now freed from the NDA shackles, any new flavors of perceptual rendering to write home about?
None are yet free from NDA shackles. Your questions will soon be addressed but not until the embargo is officially up.
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Can someone please tell me how to find the "Upgrade Code"?
I bought my i1pro with PM5 last August and I've registor the product via their website already.
But I haven't received the upgrade code yet.
does anyone know why?
thanks
aaron
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Hi aaronchan
After you install the software you go to the licensing-page (in the software) and you find all the contacts under the tab 'manual activation'.
I contacted the x-rite contact for my region by mail and got an activation code within an hour.
Hope this helps,
Toni
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BasicColor is fine for displays.
basICColor display is fine for displays. But there's also a lot of printer/scanner/camera profiling tools in their offer (14 trial licence key is available for each of them, as usual)
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The official release date is April 6th. You can't order, upgrade, and NDAers can't talk until then. Don't expect anything of substance until then. See you on the 6th!
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The official release date is April 6th. You can't order, upgrade, and NDAers can't talk until then. Don't expect anything of substance until then. See you on the 6th!
Oh, my mistake. I guess all these new posts I'm seeing on various forums heralding "i! profiler software available now" are just pump priming. It's really not available yet. Thanks for the clarification.
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Oh, my mistake. I guess all these new posts I'm seeing on various forums heralding "i! profiler software available now" are just pump priming. It's really not available yet. Thanks for the clarification.
The software is available, can be installed, and can be run, you just can't unlock it's specific functionality without purchasing a licence code. So it's not fully functional, yet.
Cheers,
Bart
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The software is available, can be installed, and can be run, you just can't unlock it's specific functionality without purchasing a licence code. So it's not fully functional, yet.
Cheers,
Bart
Beautiful, you can install the software, the mixing and matching of what is best to do with what where is a pile of confusion, people who know how to decode this stuff so mere mortals could make intelligent up-grading or changeover decisions aren't allowed to talk (yet), and in any case it's not fully functional because you can't buy a license code. Man alive - in properly functioning companies the staff who do this kind of thing would be looking for work the next morning.
How many years now has it been since they bought Gretag? Between then and now they couldn't have properly rationalized the program offerings taking the best from which each had to offer, put it into one comprehensive package with say two levels of purchase (Basic and Pro), and marketed the works with license code, applications and documentation in one seamless process and set of intelligible choices? Absent which, I'll stick with my Pulse Elite for the printer profiles and BasicColor for the display - works well enough for present purposes and I don't have the time or patience to muddle through all this bullocks from X-Rite - so one customer for up-grading lost, and I only mention this not because other users should necessarily care what I in particular am doing - but just to send XRite a message that they need to get their act together, because if I'm in this mode, there may well be many more like me. It's all just too damn disjointed and bewildering relative to what it can and should be.
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Beautiful, you can install the software...
That wasn’t the intent (IOW, that URL was not supposed to go live). So forget about any frustration in not hearing details while being able to download the software. That wasn’t by design.
How many years now has it been since they bought Gretag?
in 2006 X-Rite “acquired” GMB.
Between then and now they couldn't have properly rationalized the program offerings taking the best from which each had to offer, put it into one comprehensive package with say two levels of purchase (Basic and Pro), and marketed the works with license code, applications and documentation in one seamless process and set of intelligible choices?
Well, no. Your frustration is justified and understood (by me).
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You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG!
They replied me within 20 mins!
This is so far the best customer service I have ever get from X-rite.
But the thing is where should I start to play around with this new monster with my printers and my RIP...?
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But the thing is where should I start to play around with this new monster with my printers and my RIP...?
Assuming you have a functioning product, try importing CGATs data measurements you hopefully have from the profiles you built in the past. You can load and regenerate a new profile using the new color engine and do some side by side tests. Again assuming you have a functioning product, build a new custom target, measure and build a profile from scratch, compare that again to the original profile.
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Assuming you have a functioning product, try importing CGATs data measurements you hopefully have from the profiles you built in the past. You can load and regenerate a new profile using the new color engine and do some side by side tests. Again assuming you have a functioning product, build a new custom target, measure and build a profile from scratch, compare that again to the original profile.
"• i1Profiler allows the import of CGATS measurement files from other applications. However, the color engine has been optimized to work with the patch sets generated within i1Profiler. The profile quality from profiles made entirely within the i1Profiler workflow will exceed profiles made from legacy targets and measurements."
"• When saving spectral data from other application to use in i1Profiler, scale the reflectances from 0-1.0. Data scaled from 0-100 will not be interpreted correctly in i1Profiler."
"This release of i1Profiler contains a new release of X-Rite Device Services; a separate application that handles all communication between applications and X-Rite measurement devices." I no longer have to go to System Preferences to disconnect the device for X-Rite Device Services so that I can use it with other profiling or calibration software.
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"• i1Profiler allows the import of CGATS measurement files from other applications. However, the color engine has been optimized to work with the patch sets generated within i1Profiler. The profile quality from profiles made entirely within the i1Profiler workflow will exceed profiles made from legacy targets and measurements."
I’ve built a lot of profiles using an older PMP target in i1P along with ProfileMaker Pro and it works just fine. Should one build a target in i1P instead? Yes, more about why when the embargo is up. But one can take legacy CGATs data and build a new profile and see the differences and results from the new i1P engine.
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Actually it makes me wonder if it's possible to upgrade to i1Profiler, then purchase (at a small cost) ProfileMaker Pro for the additional features (camera, scanner etc) - this would be good for i1 XT[reme] owners?
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Actually it makes me wonder if it's possible to upgrade to i1Profiler, then purchase (at a small cost) ProfileMaker Pro for the additional features (camera, scanner etc) - this would be good for i1 XT[reme] owners?
Or purchase PMP and get a free upgrade to i1P?
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then purchase (at a small cost) ProfileMaker Pro for the additional features (camera, scanner etc) - this would be good for i1 XT[reme] owners?
Have you seen the cost of PMP ? it's a lot more than i1Profiler
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I downloaded the software to test it. With connection of i1pro monitor calibration is activated automatically (i1pro acts as a dongle).
I tested the monitor profiling. I could not find individual gamma (what gamma is it actually?). Black point could not be adjusted, too.
Does it hardware calibration (like basicColor products)? I guess not.
Which special features can I expect from rgb profiling (as I do not use a RIP).
Best
Michael
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You can choose the target TRC in profile settings (gamma 1.8, 2.2, 3.0, sRGB only). You can also adjust bkpt with "target contrast ratio". There's no hardware calibration.
As for RGB profiling, new iterative profiling and perceptual gamut mapping options look promising.
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There's no hardware calibration.
Hmm, no hardware calibration, no camera/scanner profiling. Seems limited for the money.
As for RGB profiling, new iterative profiling and perceptual gamut mapping options look promising.
If we are to believe the limited info so far available. We'll have to wait and see what it brings in practice, the long delay in introduction is not confidence inspiring.
Cheers,
Bart
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Or purchase PMP and get a free upgrade to i1P?
Have you seen the cost of PMP ? it's a lot more than i1Profiler
I've considered that, the concern is purchasing deprecated software (PMP5) at quite high cost (~$1800 US) vs upgrading from an existing i1 XTreme (with i1 Match) at $500 and waiting for the additional features of PMP5 to be converted over to i1Profiler. That's why a license downgrade from i1Profiler to PMP5 while the features are ported over would be a nice touch... (though, I can probably just use i1 Match instead).
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I think X-Rite should provide a mini-max purchase optimization algorithm with an options matrix, a linear programming engine (under the hood) and a nice neat GUI that helps prospective customers make purchase decisions that optimize cost-effectiveness. ;D
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I think X-Rite should provide a mini-max purchase optimization algorithm with an options matrix, a linear programming engine (under the hood) and a nice neat GUI that helps prospective customers make purchase decisions that optimize cost-effectiveness. ;D
They already do; it's called ColorMunki! (and this is no April Fools' statement)
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They already do; it's called ColorMunki! (and this is no April Fools' statement)
If I were X-Rite I wouldn't be happy to countenance the possibility that the 500 package outperforms what they otherwise sell for mega-bucks. They can't be THAT dumb. (And that's not an April Fool's Day statement either!)
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You can make the comparison? I am interested in your opinion. This is RGB ICC profiles measured to Canon iPF8300 Adobe plugin. iPF8300. Thank You.
bas - basICColor Print
PM - Profile Maker
i1Prism - Easy Media modul from Caldera rip with i1Prism engine (same to i1Profiler?)
http://www.uloz.to/8514505/test-zip (http://www.uloz.to/8514505/test-zip)
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*sigh* :(
It was an exercise in pain just to get X-Rite to allow upgrades at all, they appeared either quite content or completely oblivious to letting their existing customers hang out to dry.
Then the revelation of the features which were killed, like scanner profiling, because of apparently a lack of need. Err, what?
Then the constant delays, PMP5 barely updated in 6 years and now finally, they release the successor, and the product is ..... wanting.
Shouldn't the flagship product be the most fully featured, not the best selling one?
It really does seem like X-Rite has no idea who it's customer base is or what they do, or perhaps they've realised that there is more revenue in the prosumer market than they were getting from their flagship products.
I remember similar difficulties when Munki was released, limited installation restrictions etc. And yet they still bring out wonderfully useful gadgets like the colorchecker passport. There's no consistency.
Lack of competition apparently does breed complacency.
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*sigh* :(
Lack of competition apparently does breed complacency.
......as well as managerial incompetence.
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Shouldn't the flagship product be the most fully featured, not the best selling one?
I wonder if they consider it their "flagship" product ? PMP5 is still listed as current and costs more than twice as much!
Reading Andrew's review it stuck me they would have been better off just putting the i1prism engine into their existing products as upgrades, rather than trying to build an entire new product. I get the impression that it's going to take a long time until this package has all it's bugs and quirks sorted out, and the feature omissions.
Paul
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I've worked, briefly, with i1, PMP and Monaco.
Based on that limited and highly sujective sampling as well as Andrew Rodneys review I think there's still along way to go before XRite reaches "primetime" status. Also I really, really dislike software that makes me jump through hoops and feel I should goosestep and salute. ;D
cvt
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I'm not surprised at all. I mean X-Rite did not mange to get Monaco Profiler working on Vista or windows 7 ..... The best answer I got, well you could by PMP or a new computer running windows XP .....
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You can make the comparison? I am interested in your opinion. This is RGB ICC profiles measured to Canon iPF8300 Adobe plugin. iPF8300. Thank You.
bas - basICColor Print
PM - Profile Maker
i1Profiler
If you're wondering how RGB profiles from i1Profiler compares to the other guys, i1Profiler wins hands down (I've done lots of careful comparisons). The smoothness and perceptual rendering are incredible. Only Monaco Profiler can come close.
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If you're wondering how RGB profiles from i1Profiler compares to the other guys, i1Profiler wins hands down (I've done lots of careful comparisons). The smoothness and perceptual rendering are incredible. Only Monaco Profiler can come close.
Scott - I'm curious to know:
How did you do the comparison? Prints? What subject matter? Would it be feasible to scan some prints that show the differences and post them? I'm wondering whether the differences would remain visible through such a process?
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How did you do the comparison? Prints? What subject matter? Would it be feasible to scan some prints that show the differences and post them? I'm wondering whether the differences would remain visible through such a process?
Lots and lots of prints using different profiling options and software configurations using a variety of subject matter (including my evaluation image of course). I've been doing this at lots of photo labs in particular and let them put the profiles to the test in demanding real - world situations. I've got huge stacks of prints - too much to scan and convey... You can come to the studio and rifle through them with me if you like. :-] Nothing you can't do yourself now... Send some files to digitalprolab.com for starters.
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I'm in Toronto and you're in Texas. If I ever find my way to Texas when you are there I may take you up on that offer! The only profiling package I own - and it works well - is the old Pulse Elite system. I certainly wouldn't be buying these higher end systems just for the sake of experimenting with them. I'm well aware that often the only way to see fine differences between alternatives is to print the files using these alternatives and examine them close-up. I was hoping it would be possible to convey an impression - if the differences are substantial enough - by taking one revealing image, printing it with MP, PMP and i1P, then scanning the prints and posting them on a website for viewing. It could be that all these transformations would obscure the differences, but perhaps not completely if the differences were large enough - why I was asking. While your extensive experience with this lends credibility to what you are observing, it is natural to want to see for oneself if it's somehow feasible.
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I'm in Toronto and you're in Texas. If I ever find my way to Texas when you are there I may take you up on that offer!
I actually get to Toronto for one-on-one consulting, plus I have people that come to my studio (from places like Stockholm, Sydney, Mexico City, etc) for 1-3 days of intense training. This combined with making images in the Hill Country or Big Bend region can be really fun... But I get your point!
The only profiling package I own - and it works well - is the old Pulse Elite system. I certainly wouldn't be buying these higher end systems just for the sake of experimenting with them.
Not a bad system! i1P's perceptual rendering, like Monaco Profiler before it, is exceptional. With it you'd see better edge gamut saturation and improved smoothness in a granger rainbow.
You could potentially measure your targets in ColorPort and drag and drop your CGATS file onto i1P for profile generation in i1P. Or you could send your CGATS file to an i1P owner for remote generation. Or you could just use an i1P remote profiling service to try before you buy. You've got to see it for yourself, as you say. Seeing is believing.
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Mark,
If you want a set of comparison profiles, email me one of your measurement files with spectral data. I'll build you profiles with PMP5, Profiler, and i1Profile using the default settings. It's been many years since I last pulled the Pulse out of storage and used it. I do not recall the default file format - do you need to use ToolCrib to read spectral data? Also, i1Profiler is optimized for X-Rite's new XRGA calibration standard. The Pulse probably adheres reasonably closely to it, but I can't say for certain. In any event, the offer stands.
We have put i1Profiler through its paces since the retail version arrived. I agree with Scott in that the profile quality is, in general, superior to what one gets from either Profiler or PMP. The output is very close to Profiler's. Scum--dot problems are gone, but the main benefit appears to come from (1) the ability to measure targets containing patches other than the default Profiler sets, and (2) having spectral data to work from rather than simple LAB values. X-Rite also increased the CLUT table resolution from 33 points on a side to 37.
When we measured a 729 patch set (standard Profiler medium target) and compared output from Monaco Profiler to i1Profiler, prints made with Rel. Color were extremely close to each other both visually (in the case of actual images) and numerically (measured from synthetic color ramps). Prints made using Perceptual rendering (with necessary tweaks to the default settings in both software packages) were visually smoother and handled transition into out-of-gamut colors better. The differences were visible, but not dramatic. Go to a larger target patch set, particularly one including patches covering problem output areas, and you see more improvement with i1Profiler.
Profiles for papers having significant OBC levels tend to come out distinctly better with i1Profiler than Monaco Profiler. Profiler requires using a UV filter for these stocks, while i1Profiler contains at least some of the OBC compensation algorithms from PMP5. I say "appears" because there is nothing in the so-called documentation about this, nor are there any options to enable or disable OBC in the software. i1Profiler does contain a special OBC module, but it requires an i1iSis and the workflow is not of much use except for profiling your personal printer (can't use saved measurements from previous profiles, so you need to perform the entire print-measure-profile-print new target-evaluate-reprofile sequence at one time).
Overall, i1Profiler produces results that visually read as superior to the past software and are measurably more accurate (Rel. Color) and smoother (RC and Perceptual). The differences are not dramatic nor are they as large as one would have expected for half a decade of development time by the combined forces of X-Rite and GretagMacbeth. My real complaint is with the workflow; it owes all too much to the ColorMunki. There simply is no reasonable way to process a number of profiles with varied construction options. Profile editing, data analysis and manipulation (e.g. MeasureTool), and critical capabilities such as specifying a black generation curve (a must for serious CMYK work) are absent. The blizzard of new file formats, and inconsistent support amongst them, make backwards compatibility less than good. Andrew's assessment that i1Profiler is Beta software hits the mark.
One other thing I should mention for anyone planning on using i1Profiler as part of a profiling service: Read the license carefully. The usage rights are curtailed from what ProfileMaker and i1Match allowed, and you are limited to providing a total of 50 profiles per calendar year. It's a rare day when we make fewer than 50 profiles. Exceeding these limits requires obtaining a separate license.
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One other thing I should mention for anyone planning on using i1Profiler as part of a profiling service: Read the license carefully. The usage rights are curtailed from what ProfileMaker and i1Match allowed, and you are limited to providing a total of 50 profiles per calendar year. It's a rare day when we make fewer than 50 profiles. Exceeding these limits requires obtaining a separate license.
Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?
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Profiles for papers having significant OBC levels tend to come out distinctly better with i1Profiler than Monaco Profiler. Profiler requires using a UV filter for these stocks, while i1Profiler contains at least some of the OBC compensation algorithms from PMP5. I say "appears" because there is nothing in the so-called documentation about this, nor are there any options to enable or disable OBC in the software. i1Profiler does contain a special OBC module, but it requires an i1iSis and the workflow is not of much use except for profiling your personal printer (can't use saved measurements from previous profiles, so you need to perform the entire print-measure-profile-print new target-evaluate-reprofile sequence at one time).
I note however that you can save most stages of the sequence (target, measurement data, OBC chart) and use it to produce multiple versions of a profile - have I got this wrong? (I've asked about this in another thread)
Certainly agree about the vagueness of 'documentation' ;-)
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Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?
X-Rite is really getting on my nerv... I probably wouldn't even use the new i1 software if my good old Monaco Profiler would actually run ...
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Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?
The weird thing is that I cannot find the EULA anywhere after installing the software on Windows nor does i1Profiler offer any way I can find of displaying the license. Apparently, if you install the software without copying the license from the text displayed by the installer, you are in violation of the license you agreed to:This Agreement is your proof of license to exercise the rights granted herein and must be retained by You.
As Andrew mentioned, there are other restrictions on any distribution of profiles:
(c) You may provide a Licensed Profile to a third party as part of Your profiling services for such third party only if:
(i) Such Licensed Profile is for personal use by such third party only on a specific input, display or output device owned by the third party for which the Licensed Profile was created;
(ii) Your profiling services are conducted on-site for the third party (i.e., physically at the third party’s facility) and not using any other method or communication technique, including but not limited to, Internet-based communications and/or services; and
(iii) The maximum number of Licensed Profiles provided to all third parties by You pursuant to this Agreement within a given calendar year does not exceed fifty (50) Licensed Profiles;
You specifically acknowledge and agree that nothing herein shall be deemed to permit You to provide Licensed Profiles to any third party for distribution with and/or in conjunction with the distribution, promotion and/or sale of, such third party’s or any other party’s input, display or output device.
Item 2 limits one to performing on-site consulting only. You may even need to build the profiles using the client's own computers, as the EULA goes on to say "You may not Yourself or through any other person, do any of the following: ... (iii) distribute to any third party a Licensed Profile in any way or form, whether by networks, electronic bulletin boards, web sites or otherwise."
The EULA does indeed state that "This Agreement contains the entire agreement between You and X-Rite with respect to the Software and Licensed Profiles and supersedes all prior agreements and understandings, oral or written, with respect to such Software and Licensed Profiles." Install at your own risk.
There is anther section that strikes me as particularly Orwellian:YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE SOFTWARE MAY CONTAIN SOFTWARE PROCEDURES, SOFTWARE CODE OR OTHER MECHANISMS THAT MAY BE AUTOMATICALLY AND/OR REMOTELY ACTUATED TO ENFORCE USE RESTRICTIONS AND THAT MAY DISABLE FUNCTIONALITY OF THE SOFTWARE AND PREVENT ACCESS TO DATA USING THE SOFTWARE, E.G., AT THE END OF ANY EVALUATION PERIOD, IF APPLICABLE, OR UPON VIOLATION OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT.
The moral here being, I presume, make sure your firewall is a good one.
I should mention that the above snippits are the copyright of X-Rite. Hopefully I do not fall afoul of the dictate that "You may not copy the written materials accompanying the Software..."
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Seems to be de rigueur (Rob, I got it right this time!) for the lawyers at many software companies: write the most restrictive and most egregious EULA you can imagine, and see if clients complain. If they do, play dumb: "we didn't really mean what's written, we mean well and it's for your own protection," which reads "we don't even read our own legalese, our lawyers mean well and it's for their own protection." Or tone it down until the customers stop complaining - and you still end up with one that's an order of a magnitude more restrictive than previous generation. Boiling a frog, slippery slope, lawyer fees are a form of taxation, etc.
Then add copy "protection" which only punishes paying customers while pirates get an unrestricted version without hassles to complete the insanity.
Combine customer complacency and ignorance with potential abuse of monopoly power and this is what you end up with.
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Mark,
If you want a set of comparison profiles, email me one of your measurement files with spectral data. I'll build you profiles with PMP5, Profiler, and i1Profile using the default settings. It's been many years since I last pulled the Pulse out of storage and used it. I do not recall the default file format - do you need to use ToolCrib to read spectral data? Also, i1Profiler is optimized for X-Rite's new XRGA calibration standard. The Pulse probably adheres reasonably closely to it, but I can't say for certain. In any event, the offer stands.
Ethan - thanks very much for the offer. I'm already into one such exercise courtesy of another Forum member, so I shall complete that process first. But it is very good of you to offer and I appreciate it. Meanwhile there are huge general problems with XRite. First will be to see how good this package really is, then if I feel motivated to buy it, I'd have to take a hard look at the various X-Rite-specific nuisance factors to determine whether it makes sense.
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As I see it to buy into this software without having any previous version (or associated hardware) is a minimum of $1399 US for i1Photo Pro. This contrasts with the $350 I paid for the ColorMunki setup. While everyone is talking about how the new software compares with older products isn't the real question how it compares to ColorMunki given the rather large price differential? Those results would be most interesting (though I presume there would be measurable differences, the larger question is whether there are visible differences in a print). I note that some of the promotional information on X-Rite's site talks about how some of the CM technology was integrated into this new product.
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As I see it to buy into this software without having any previous version (or associated hardware) is a minimum of $1399 US for i1Photo Pro. This contrasts with the $350 I paid for the ColorMunki setup. While everyone is talking about how the new software compares with older products isn't the real question how it compares to ColorMunki given the rather large price differential? Those results would be most interesting (though I presume there would be measurable differences, the larger question is whether there are visible differences in a print). I note that some of the promotional information on X-Rite's site talks about how some of the CM technology was integrated into this new product.
Alan, as there are different market segments I think there are four lines of interest and associated questions: (1) the one you are interested in; (2) all the people who own MP and PMP and may have an up-grading interest from those products; (3) people like me using legacy software and thinking of an up-grade; (4) people who own no profiling software and wish to buy SOMETHING.
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I think that for those considering upgrading from Monaco or PM, it's a huge problem that X-Rite wants to retroactively alter the license on your old software, restricting its legal use. It seems to me that part of the original purchase price included that license. Is this the price we're going to have to pay for upgrading from our current packages. The licensing agreement alone could be a deal breaker for a lot of people, particularly anyone making profiles for anyone other than themselves. I'm not sure how exactly they would know if you were violating their terms or how many people just never bother to read them and go about their business as they always have. Didn't the industry go through a big licensing language thing a few years ago. This seems like a huge step in the wrong direction.
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Ah, there’s a LOT more to the EULA that is problematic that I suggest people look over than just this limit. Did you see how agreeing to this applies to your previous EULA from PMP and PROFILER? Or the restrictions on providing said profiles?
Good grief. This is news to me, how would one know this without first buying the product?
This basically makes the use or purchase of i1Profiler completely untenable if you are or were intending to provide a profiling service.
And overwriting your previous product's EULA? Is that even legal? Surely this could only be enforceable if you purchase the upgrade, and even then it's a stretch....
We need some enterprising company to enter this market and provide a decent product with a common sense EULA, the lack of competition has obviously made X-Rite go insane.
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Good grief. This is news to me, how would one know this without first buying the product?
I had to re-run the installer to find the license text. I also had to re-run the PM5 installer to find its EULA - where there are some restrictions, but not at the level that comes with i1 Profiler (particularly the 50 profile limit)
For info I've put a copy of it at:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/profiling/i1_profiler_overview.html#license_agreement (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/profiling/i1_profiler_overview.html#license_agreement)
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On 20 Dec 2010, at 19:49, Bob Binder @ X-Rite wrote:
> We received the following message from you.
> I am sure that our intention is not to create any havoc for our customers. Can you provide me the details of your situation so that I can have it addressed. i.e. what was the bundle that you purchased,
> and any other pertinent details affecting the situation that you are in. If there is something that we have overlooked, we need to address it.
> Thank you,
> Bob Binder (Worldwide Support Program Manager, X-Rite)
Bob,
What I was referring to was the unscrupulous way that X-Rite had orphaned their paying customers, i.e. those who purchased Profile Maker Pro 5 bundles only to have their products discontinued and replaced with the same software but with a different name, i.e. Profile Maker Platinum, further then that X-Rite would not permit those customers to upgrade to the new product without having paid a large sum to "rename" their purchases.
I am aware that X-Rite has finally rescinded this unconscionable policy and made all version of PM5 eligible, but only due to public pressure.
Regrettably it seems there is no low to which X-Rite will not stoop, and you have instead replaced that unprincipled tactic with one even more sinister, namely the i1Profiler EULA.
This oppressive legal document renders your new flagship product completely unusable ( and early reports suggest it's not of release quality anyway ).
The End User License Agreement prevents the use of i1Profiler for providing a profiling service, precisely what the most of the demographic for this manner of tool would need it for, much like selling a hammer but precluding it's use for banging in nails.
i1Profiler is (meant to be) a professional tool not an end user one, and professionals have businesses which provide profiling services, the fundamental mainstay of their business. Furthermore, your license agreement places a limit on the number of customers a professional may have during a year (50 customers assuming they only required one profile each). Worse still, the license states you cannot conduct your business, or even contact your customers via Email, and I quote :
"(ii) Your profiling services are conducted on-site for the third party (i.e., physically at the third party’s facility) and not using any other method or communication technique, including but not limited to, Internet-based communications and/or services"
A EULA which prevents you from using the internet in the running of your business? Seriously? Should I look forward to the imminent release of a coal-fired steam powered spectrophotometer? Should I begin training a brace of carrier pigeons to facilitate speedy communications with my customers?
If this wasn't exploitative enough, the license further goes on to supersede the license agreements for your previous products, thus removing the tools upon which those professionals already built their business and customer base. We must hope this doesn't set a precedent, or I might reasonably expect a communique from DeWalt informing me I've already drilled enough holes this year with the drill I bought 6 years ago and I must stop using it.
By allowing your lawyers to run riot with the EULA you have made your product completely untenable, by buying your product anyone running a profiling business would be required to cease trading.
Responses such as "it doesn't really mean that" are no help here, this is a legal agreement, it means precisely what it says, if you mean something different, change the document.
As it stands, you've released a product with such officious restrictions that it's nonviable to purchase, I implore you (X-Rite) to come to your senses and sort out this mess, I would like to purchase and use this software but cannot under these circumstances, I am not alone. I would imagine there's a not unreasonable chance such an oppressive EULA would get thrown out of court anyway, this needs fixing. When you alienate your customers in this way they look for alternatives, and whilst you may currently enjoy a monopoly, a market consisting of unhappy customers is a ripe opportunity to others.
Yours sincerely,
Darren Joy
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On 20 Dec 2010, at 19:49, Bob Binder @ X-Rite wrote:
> We received the following message from you.
> I am sure that our intention is not to create any havoc for our customers. Can you provide me the details of your situation so that I can have it addressed. i.e. what was the bundle that you purchased,
> and any other pertinent details affecting the situation that you are in. If there is something that we have overlooked, we need to address it.
> Thank you,
> Bob Binder (Worldwide Support Program Manager, X-Rite)
Told you so (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=52873.msg435053#msg435053).
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... As it stands, you've released a product with such officious restrictions that it's nonviable to purchase, I implore you (X-Rite) to come to your senses and sort out this mess, I would like to purchase and use this software but cannot under these circumstances, I am not alone. I would imagine there's a not unreasonable chance such an oppressive EULA would get thrown out of court anyway, this needs fixing. When you alienate your customers in this way they look for alternatives, and whilst you may currently enjoy a monopoly, a market consisting of unhappy customers is a ripe opportunity to others.
Hi Darren,
Fully agree.
Cheers,
Bart
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I had to re-run the installer to find the license text. I also had to re-run the PM5 installer to find its EULA - where there are some restrictions, but not at the level that comes with i1 Profiler (particularly the 50 profile limit)
Gang, one of the reasons when you are presented an EULA with the little Save option (at least on the Mac) is to archive this with the application and read it. I always do this (hence when I got the GM version of i1P, I was able, along with Chris Murphy, to read and talk about these new restrictions). X-Rite is aware of our concerns. What they will do is unknown. But we all have to take some responsibility for reading these agreements before we click OK. Especially in a product like this which has traditionally supplied some restrictions on the usage of profiles. The older EULA were acceptable to the color community by and large (years ago, there was some major discussions on the ColorSync list about this). Should this EULA be re-written or revert to the older EULA? Absolutely! But unless WE take the time to read them and make our concerns made, we can’t put all the blame on X-Rite (OK, how about 90%?).
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Gang, one of the reasons when you are presented an EULA with the little Save option (at least on the Mac) is to archive this with the application and read it. I always do this (hence when I got the GM version of i1P, I was able, along with Chris Murphy, to read and talk about these new restrictions). X-Rite is aware of our concerns. What they will do is unknown. But we all have to take some responsibility for reading these agreements before we click OK. Especially in a product like this which has traditionally supplied some restrictions on the usage of profiles. The older EULA were acceptable to the color community by and large (years ago, there was some major discussions on the ColorSync list about this). Should this EULA be re-written or revert to the older EULA? Absolutely! But unless WE take the time to read them and make our concerns made, we can’t put all the blame on X-Rite (OK, how about 90%?).
While that is prudent advice on surface, EULAs are often complicated legal documents (http://www.bnet.com/blog/technology-business/privacy-policies-are-great-8212-for-phds/282) with obscure phrasing, purposefully wide-reaching catch-all clauses, and are unnecessarily long. As has been shown here and in numerous other cases companies don't often understand or even read their own EULAs.
If I read every EULA to every software and website I sign up for to actually understand them, I would have to probably spend a full working day each month to do that. For a business reading an EULA is even more important, and is best left to a lawyer due to the onerous restrictions some software packages impose, as has been shown in this thread.
Finally, enforceability of EULAs is questionable in many jurisdictions because they don't fulfill some of the basic tenets of contract law.
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Gang, one of the reasons when you are presented an EULA with the little Save option (at least on the Mac) is to archive this with the application and read it.
There is no "Save" option in the Windows installer. Sensible, as Windows has only a 90% share (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8) of the operating system market vs. 5% for Macs. If you do not manually select the EULA text and save it out in another application, the only way to later see the license is to reinstall i1Profiler.
I see some of X-Rite's logic in the profile creation and usage limitations. The price for the full, non-upgrade version of i1Profiler is $1000. I suspect that I am not the only one on this forum who recalls paying twice that amount for the standard ProfileMaker and Profiler versions (or something over $3K for the ProfileMaker Publish software). The feature set of i1Profiler reflects the price drop. No real profile editor, data manipulation, averaging, and analysis functions that are extremely limited in comparison to MeasureTool, no corrolary to ColorPicker, etc. i1Profiler does make good profiles except - and this is critical - in the case where you need a customized black generation curve. That feature went missing as well.
The EULA allows a color consultant to make on-site profiles. As Darren and I pointed out above, strict interpretation of the subsection c.ii requirements likely means that i1Profiler will need to be installed and run from the client's own computers. Not exactly practical. The 50 profile per year limit is problematic in the real-world. Unless your clients pay exceptionally well, it will be hard to make a living, particularly since a typical press requires a handful of profiles with varying K-Gen curves and GCR/UCR strategies for each paper. I do not know what X-Rite's licensing rates for making more than 50 profiles per year is. Obviously this will be a key factor for in a color consultant's decision of whether to use i1Profiler or not.
The market that X-Rite is killing off is for remote profiling services. I presume that at the $1000 price point, they feel that they stand to lose too many potential customers by adhering to the legacy ProfileMaker licensing scheme. Again, I assume that X-Rite has licensing options for remote profiling services, but I have no insight as to what those might be.
From our company's perspective, the licensing restriction are largely irrelevant. We use our own software for making RGB profiles, and the only press profiles we create are for printers we run jobs at. It was worth the $500 upgrade fee to see where X-Rite was at. Even with the improvements in RGB profiles, our home-grown software more than holds it own. If we use i1Profiler for press profiles, it appears we won't be able to provide the print shop with the profiles after the fact. (Side note: It is trivial to extract an embedded profile from an image. I'll leave the obvious conclusion about whether a print shop can save the profile up to you.) Other profiling service providers will indeed need to be careful about the ramifications of even installing i1Profiler. I have no pretensions of being a lawyer; it will require a good one to determine if the i1Profiler EULA's revocation of previous X-Rite licenses (a) is even contractually valid, (b) applies to ProfileMaker or i1 software versions purchased prior to the X-Rite/GretagMacBeth merger, and (c) only applies to the computer i1Profiler is installed on or to all computers you or your company own.
My primary complaints about i1Profiler, therefore, relate to the missing features and poor workflow. The product simply does not allow for efficiently creating a significant number of profiles, nor does the design consider that profiles may not be used on the computer where they are created. This is fine if X-Rite's target market are hobbyist consumers wanting a more powerful profiling tool than ColorMunki. For commercial work, however, the modest improvement in profile quality (again except for many presses where control over K-gen curves is essential) needs to be weighted against the drawbacks presented by the new, fancy, and woefully inefficient user interface and workflow.
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EULA
Following this discussion I've just been on the phone to the person in X-Rite responsible in the UK for Profiler;
He didn't think the EULA is any different to any other X-Rite profiling package. Oh dear, this doesn't bode well.
I've just sent him an email with the EULA, plus comparisons to previous X-Rite/GMB EULAs that do allow remote profiling.
There are several points to come from this.
1. Is the EULA a legally binding agreement ?
In it’s current form, almost certainly not in the UK.
2. Have X-Rite built a deactivation routine into the software to prevent use they think contravenes their EULA ?
It would seem to be easily by passed by running on a machine unconnected to the internet, but the clause allowing X-Rite to visit the licensed premises to check for contraventions to the EULA is pretty draconian, and again of dubious legality in the UK.
3. What will X-Rite do about the companies already offering a profiling service with i1Profiler ? possibly in contravention of the EULA.
4. Is this a serious attempt by X-Rite to profit from, or destroy, the remote profiling services ?
At the price points some companies are operating at there’s obviously little room for X-Rite to take a worthwhile cut.
Do they think that eliminating remote services will increase sales of X-Rite’s profiling products ? Possibly, but I'm not convinced the market works that way and possibly the reverse. Once people have used custom profiles they're more likely to fully engage with colour management solutions and in the long term are likely to buy X-Rite's products overall.
I guess a key question will be how much will they charge to licence the software for a remote profiling service.
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The initial reply is that they are working on a version of the licence for "consultants" to address these issues and will get back to me.
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The initial reply is that they are working on a version of the licence for "consultants" to address these issues and will get back to me.
IANAL, but I don't see how they could legally restrict the number of profiles produced by it, or where they are produced in, or who they are distributed to.
What they are selling is a tool, a software, but a tool nonetheless. A screwdriver manufacturer can't limit the number of screws tightened with their tools, and certainly can't limit their usage to the premises of the owner or who's screws they tighten. The absurdity of the concept is immediately obvious to anyone reading the previous sentence, yet there are "ho-hums" and "oh well"s every time this happens with software. Just because software enables publishers to restrict usage doesn't mean it must be done, or tolerated.
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What they are selling is a tool, a software, but a tool nonetheless.
That's a rather too simplistic view I'm afraid.
We're buying a licence to use some intellectual property, and the right's owners choose what rights they licence to us.
In the same way most photographers don't sell their image's copyright, they licence it's usage and the amount they charge is often linked to the photo's final usage.
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That's a rather too simplistic view I'm afraid.
We're buying a licence to use some intellectual property, and the right's owners choose what rights they licence to us.
With that attitude you have no one but yourself to blame for the onerous restrictions.
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That's a rather too simplistic view I'm afraid.
We're buying a licence to use some intellectual property, and the right's owners choose what rights they licence to us.
In the same way most photographers don't sell their image's copyright, they licence it's usage and the amount they charge is often linked to the photo's final usage.
Exactly!
What you get with your purchase of i1Profiler, or most other software packages, is not outright ownership of the software but a license to use it. This is standard practice, and is legally accepted internationally. Following Rhossydd's example, how much we charge a major apparel and sporting goods manufacturer for a single print of one image as artwork on corporate walls or a tradeshow backdrop is a small fraction of what an unlimited-usage license runs for a national or international marketing campaign. Our fee for the latter usage is well north of 100x what a one-off image runs.
In the early 2000's, we asked GretagMacbeth (prior to the buyout by X-Rite) what the charge would be for a license to make generic profiles for media and printer manufacturers. It was high. $20K per year per manufacturer, with payment required for a minimum of three years or the rights to the profiles would revert to GMB. This was one impetus for developing our own profiling codebase.
Obviously, the exposure for making generic profiles is high - far more than making a profile for a specific printer/ink/paper combination. If X-Rite creates a "consultants" license for individual printer profiling that omits some of the sillier restrictions such as requiring the profiles be created on-site, disallowing any electronic communications or delivery, and increasing the number of profiles per year, that would be fine. A price point in the $10-20K per license would not be out of line for this usage.
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With that attitude you have no one but yourself to blame for the onerous restrictions.
No, I'm just looking at it from a right's holders perspective.
Photographers jealously try to hold onto their IP rights to earn a living, there's no reason why software authors shouldn't get a degree of respect for their rights too.
I'll accept reasonable restrictions in licensing conditions, but In this case I believe they're exerting their rights rather too vigorously. Especially so since they appear to have made significant detrimental changes to their past licences terms. There are unacceptable restrictions of dubious legality and clauses that may be impossible to enforce.
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A price point in the $10-20K per license would not be out of line for this usage.
Really ?
In the UK the market isn't exactly huge and prices stay pretty competitive, putting a £10k licence in place will put custom profiles built with i1 Profiler out of the budget for the majority of photographers.
The smaller, cheaper companies will stick with PMP5 or i1 Match if they want to keep offering a cheap legal service. Frankly the difference in profile performance isn't so great you'd want to pay hugely more for it.
Are X-Rite actually going to police a restriction like this ? That might be a lot of costly work, not to mention poor publicity, with no significant profit to be gained from it.
A smarter move would be to offer accreditation status for people wanting to offer a retail service with their products. That way they'd also keep control over quality and service which would bolster the industry as a whole.
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I'd really like to know the answer to that.
I feel it will have the opposite effect - those providing profiling services might choose
NOT to upgrade and continue offering services using their current technology.
David
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While it's true that software is licensed and not owned, that doesn't make this restriction any less ridiculous. Imagine if Microsoft Office came with a license that said writers could only sell 50 articles/documents a year, or if Adobe said you need a special (more expensive) license if you wanted to do freelance post-processing for paying clients.
Unfortunately this is the kind of stuff that happens when one company owns a market segment and there's no competition. For years, GMB and X-Rite sold their klunky, buggy applications for thousands of dollars because there was no real alternative and the price wasn't too much of a concern for their typical customers (publishing houses, etc). Now with just X-Rite it's only getting worse. Hopefully a new player will come along at some point and blow X-Rite out of the water.
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While it's true that software is licensed and not owned, that doesn't make this restriction any less ridiculous. Imagine if Microsoft Office came with a license that said writers could only sell 50 articles/documents a year, or if Adobe said you need a special (more expensive) license if you wanted to do freelance post-processing for paying clients.
Unfortunately this is the kind of stuff that happens when one company owns a market segment and there's no competition. For years, GMB and X-Rite sold their klunky, buggy applications for thousands of dollars because there was no real alternative and the price wasn't too much of a concern for their typical customers (publishing houses, etc). Now with just X-Rite it's only getting worse. Hopefully a new player will come along at some point and blow X-Rite out of the water.
Right on the money Jeff. And it's getting ripe when you see that both technically and managerially they are sitting ducks. It just isn't good enough to have a decent profiling engine and hope that it will carry all else. I think the problem though is that barriers to entry are substantial and the size of the market my not be so obviously large enough to entice challengers. I'm waiting to see whether some entrepreneurial and engineering talent in India or China would emerge to shake it all up. It's just bound to happen one day.
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Right on the money Jeff. And it's getting ripe when you see that both technically and managerially they are sitting ducks. It just isn't good enough to have a decent profiling engine and hope that it will carry all else. I think the problem though is that barriers to entry are substantial and the size of the market my not be so obviously large enough to entice challengers. I'm waiting to see whether some entrepreneurial and engineering talent in India or China would emerge to shake it all up. It's just bound to happen one day.
Only if the market size justifies the investment. I'm not justifying X-Rite's licensing policy other than to say it is intellectual property and they have the right to impose whatever terms they want. Now of course there is a trade off between price and marketability. The problem here is what Mark identifies. Most amateur photographers are content with company generated profiles (and truth be told most Epson profiles are pretty darn good) and likely not to purchase profiles from someone who is doing this as a business. Higher end amateurs may be content with the ColorMunki solution which is a good cost effective approach to improving color quality.
I don't know what the active number of LuLa posters is these days, probably a small subset of those registered. These are the folks who are at the higher end and potential customers of the new software or a profile prepared from it. Pretty small market if you consider the reality of it all
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Alan, you are forgetting the whole professional photography market and all the pre-press which need colour management solutions. It's not THAT small a market, especially when you cast your net world-wide. How big I don't know, and how big it needs to be to entice challengers facing high entry costs, I don't know either.
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Not from India yet, but one company is in Hong kong.
www.qualux.com
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There's Argyll too - open source and very good in RGB mode if you have a scanning spectro - which consultants usually own.
Edmund
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Not from India yet, but one company is in Hong kong.
www.qualux.com
Interesting. They can only be grateful that X-rite is making such negative press for themselves. The timing is right for Qualux to make inroads into this market.
Cheers,
Bart
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Alan, you are forgetting the whole professional photography market and all the pre-press which need colour management solutions. It's not THAT small a market, especially when you cast your net world-wide. How big I don't know, and how big it needs to be to entice challengers facing high entry costs, I don't know either.
I don't know the total number either. A lot of event photographers (professional by definition) don't print but supply only images to clients and leave printing up to them. I just took a look at the Qualux website that has been posted as a possible solution. Interesting that their software is only targeted at McIntosh users. Price of the pro product is $1199 for the software. Don't know what the license terms are but it's cool that interface choices are English/Traditional Chinese.
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I don't know the total number either. A lot of event photographers (professional by definition) don't print but supply only images to clients and leave printing up to them. I just took a look at the Qualux website that has been posted as a possible solution. Interesting that their software is only targeted at McIntosh users. Price of the pro product is $1199 for the software. Don't know what the license terms are but it's cool that interface choices are English/Traditional Chinese.
Their Mac/PC version due to release in about 10 days
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The Q-Print solution looks good in paper, and the $575 Q Print-RGB package looks competitive with i1Profiler as far as features/functionality for photographers who don't need CMYK. Of course the question is how good are the profiles.
Their Mac/PC version due to release in about 10 days
Do you mean Windows/PC? Wonder if they'll have a demo...
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There certainly is a market for custom printer profiles. How large is debatable, but it is substantial. The tradeoff for a customer of these services comes down to how much investment is required in purchasing the necessary hardware and software vs. paying a profiling service to build the profiles. For the DIY crowd, at the low end there is the ColorMunki (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00169N0BK/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=drycreekphoto-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00169N0BK) for $400 (with current rebates) that builds reasonably good profiles or the somewhat less capable DataColor Spyder 3 Print (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YYNNJ0/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=drycreekphoto-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B002YYNNJ0) for under $250. Either may prove "good enough" if your needs are not overly critical.
Stepping up, we get to the standard X-Rite Eye-One Proof (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0010ZTF0U/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=drycreekphoto-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0010ZTF0U) at $1000. This is what many self-described profiling services use. To upgrade to a full-bore profiling solution - i1Profiler - requires another $800 from the basic i1 solution or $500 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004C04OZ6/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=drycreekphoto-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B004C04OZ6) if you already own more advanced software.
Profiling services run the gamut from guys owning an i1 and simply turning the crank to outfits that have been around for some time and have both a range of equipment and software available and detailed knowledge of how to best make use of it. The first group charges about $10 per profile. The instrument used may be more accurate than a ColorMunki or Spyder 3, but who knows as to whether it is calibrated, etc. There are a few companies that have real experience. My outfit, Dry Creek Photo (http://www.drycreekphoto.com/), has been providing printer profiles for almost a decade, CHROMiX (http://www2.chromix.com/index.cxsa) for a year or two longer, and Andrew Rodney's Digital Dog (http://digitaldog.net/services.html) for longer still. You pay more for these folks services, but you benefit their experience making thousands of profiles (I can't speak for the others, but we are closing in on 100000 profiles), and knowledge of how to wring the utmost performance out of your printer. For really high-end work, you can always hire a consultant to work on-sight. Chromix, Andrew, Rods and Cones (http://www.rodsandcones.com/), and frequent forum poster Scott Martin (http://www.on-sight.com/) are all good ones.
So where does that leave X-Rite? They are charging $1000 for a new installation of i1Profiler. The product is not full-featured, and I have many complaints (amply noted in previous posts). At that price point, however, they probably do not want to enable anyone to set up shop as a bespoke profile provider. From my perspective, X-Rite has been sitting on their thumbs for many years. The main innovation of i1Profiler appears to be combining Monaco Profiler's color engine with ProfileMaker's ability to use arbitrary targets and spectral data. Evolutionary but not revolutionary.
Alternatives do exist. Edmund mentioned Argyll (http://www.argyllcms.com/). It is a free, open-source product. Profiles made by Argyll are not subject to any restrictions on usage or sale. The profile quality can. particularly for CMYK, be spectacular. There is one serious caveat: using Argyll is not a straightforward process. There are numerous variables, all of which affect profile quality to a large extent. Building a profile is easy, but building a good one with Argyll requires a great deal of experience and repeated tests and trials. BasICColor (http://www.basiccolor.de/english/index_E.htm) has also been busy innovating. Their product lineup has many offerings, some of which look pushed to market before they were ready. I have no direct experience with BasICColor's Print software, except as a user of profiles it created. They were certainly respectable, and the product data sheet (http://www.basiccolor.de/english/Datenblaetter_E/print_E/print_E.pdf) notes most of the features one wants. I, however, would need to put the software through its paces before giving it an endorsement. I had never heard of qualux until this afternoon, so no opinions there.
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The Q-Print solution looks good in paper, and the $575 Q Print-RGB package looks competitive with i1Profiler as far as features/functionality for photographers who don't need CMYK. Of course the question is how good are the profiles.
Do you mean Windows/PC? Wonder if they'll have a demo...
They told me this morning, that Demo can be downloaded in about 10 days.
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Qualux is a software developed by a team from Hong Kong. This product is fantastic and I have seen the result of it.
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Qualux is a software developed by a team from Hong Kong. This product is fantastic and I have seen the result of it.
You refering to which of their product, I mean RGB profiles CMYK profiles or a monitor profiles.
Thanks
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I've test drive the RGB Q-Print product. The perceptual rendering intent is very good. But I haven't try the CMYK with my RIPs yet.
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.......For the DIY crowd, at the low end there is the ColorMunki (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00169N0BK/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=drycreekphoto-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00169N0BK) for $400 (with current rebates) that builds reasonably good profiles or the somewhat less capable DataColor Spyder 3 Print (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YYNNJ0/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=drycreekphoto-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B002YYNNJ0) for under $250. Either may prove "good enough" if your needs are not overly critical.
.......
I think you have that reversed! The DataColor Spyder 3 Print produces much better profiles than the ColorMunki. I've used both.
Getting my Fire Suit on!
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Well here is a very nice story from today. For some it might be funny for others well, decide for yourself.
I spent around 30 minutes today talking with X-Rite in Germany. I wanted to know about the EULA and any additional Licensing. Here is a selection of answers I got:
Person A: What EULA ?
Person B: Where can I find the EULA you are talking about?
Person C: What? I don't know I never read it.
Person D: Does anybody actually read the EULA ? I haven't.
After this I just gave up. Sorry but WTF ? Only ONE Person knew about the EULA and he didn't have a clue about additional licensing or anything.
In the end I really don't care about the EULA. Perhaps it is binding in the US, but in Germany X-Rite would have no real chance with all these changes.
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Well here is a very nice story from today. For some it might be funny for others well, decide for yourself.
I spent around 30 minutes today talking with X-Rite in Germany. I wanted to know about the EULA and any additional Licensing. Here is a selection of answers I got:
Person A: What EULA ?
Person B: Where can I find the EULA you are talking about?
Person C: What? I don't know I never read it.
Person D: Does anybody actually read the EULA ? I haven't.
After this I just gave up. Sorry but WTF ? Only ONE Person knew about the EULA and he didn't have a clue about additional licensing or anything.
In the end I really don't care about the EULA. Perhaps it is binding in the US, but in Germany X-Rite would have no real chance with all these changes.
Good news, everybody: I'm sure the cease and desist from X-Rite sent to those who break the EULA will make the terms abundantly clear :P
And you have a good point: a company can't unilaterally change a contract - there needs to be a meeting of the minds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds), which incidentally is one of the attacks on EULAs in general.
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After this I just gave up. Sorry but WTF ? Only ONE Person knew about the EULA and he didn't have a clue about additional licensing or anything.
Only a few people are involved with the EULA and it's undergoing updating as we speak. The final EULA will be effective in all countries. Just stay put until we resolve this and the new EULA is released. No need to jump to conclusions until then.
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I haven't checked lately, but I assume Heidelberg still has profile creation software to go with their printers, I was always pretty happy with the CMYK profiles produced by Printopen version 4. The old license did not allow a profiling service, not sure about any more recent products.
I guess I have some questions when I call Xrite tomorrow, maybe I won't be upgrading after all, seems like too many things missing including scanner profiling (yes I still use film) and not too happy about the remote profiling restrictions.
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I guess I have some questions when I call Xrite tomorrow, maybe I won't be upgrading after all, seems like too many things missing including scanner profiling (yes I still use film) and not too happy about the remote profiling restrictions.
Depending on what scanners you are using, you can perhaps profile them with SilverFast's Auto IT8 procedure.
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The final EULA will be effective in all countries. Just stay put until we resolve this and the new EULA is released. No need to jump to conclusions until then.
I don't think this is correct. The EULA will have to conform to local laws. In Europe we have some strong regulation on unfair contracts and the requirement that terms are made clear and plain to the end licensees, I'm not sure the current X-Rite licence and it's implementation would stand rigorous scrutiny.
Again I doubt attempts at restrospective changes to EULAs of previous products could ever be enforced. At it's most simple, just reinstall the software and you have to agree to the EULA built into the installer.
And yes, people DO need to make a fuss about this now and get it changed, or at the very least clarified.
What's curious about this is that these new clauses didn't just fall into this, someone thought about it and got it written into the EULA. Why ? and to what what ends ? it's certainly very unprofessional of them not to know about the changes at the level where their staff are being questioned on it or having a prepared policy for dealing with the new terms.
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Well I can't name the person but I was told, X-Rite is working on a new EULA especially for Europe/Germany, because they know quite well that the current EULA is not legally acceptable in Germany.
Perhaps they just thought they could get through without anybody noticing.
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Well I can't name the person but I was told, X-Rite is working on a new EULA especially for Europe/Germany, because they know quite well that the current EULA is not legally acceptable in Germany.
Interesting but, since it's not an official X-rite announcement (nor an independent legal appraisal), the status quo remains unacceptable for many. I for one have not purchased a licence although I intended to do so, as a direct consequence of this EULA (in addition to some doubts as to the features (initially?) left out). The suggestion that they are working on a different EULA would be an insult to those who drafted the current version, and to those who okayed it.
Perhaps they just thought they could get through without anybody noticing.
In legal matters, I try to assume as little as possible, but I don't preclude arrogant stupidity either.
Cheers,
Bart
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Perhaps they just thought they could get through without anybody noticing.
That doesn't make any sense. If they want to apply particular terms in their licence hiding it away has no point, they need their licensees to be aware of those particularities and conform to them.
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Well... I was given a nice upgrade deal, and I just put it on hold. The clause in the license that says Xrite has permission to remotely connect to my computer at any time can not be allowed! I think someone that bought this needs to send the EULA to the EFF.org and let them have fun with it. Not only is it a privacy issue but it is a security issue. Assuming there is an open port or a phone home that opens a port, there is a way for an exploit to get in. How fast do you think they will patch it when someone exploits this? The answer is not use a good firewall, the answer is to not have it present.
http://www.eff.org/
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The clause in the license that says Xrite has permission to remotely connect to my computer at any time can not be allowed!
Perhaps due to the way the application can update itself? Its great that this product can find a new build and download it for you. Its very common of course in many newer applications. Just a guess. They may need permission from you to do this, not necessarily spy on you. FWIW, I was told there’s no way the software can detect how many profiles you’ve built.
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Thanks, I'm going to wait on some answers before I pull out the money. The lack of GCR custom curves is a real show stopper unless they have improved the default curves about 10 fold. The only defaults I was ever happy with came from PrintOpen (version 4), the medium and heavy GCR worked very well for me, but once in a while some papers were not good enough and Profiler would correct it since I could make my own curve. And this was all on my own printer and RIP, never on something like a press where things might be very different. For my own use I rarely use RGB profiles so the inability the legally provide those for other individuals would really make that module a waste.
Now it does list camera profile creation with the 24 patch chart and sort of suggests that the larger chart can be used, so you could take a picture of that target, develop the film, and profile your scanner/film/development process much like the digital camera profiling. I know there are issues with camera profiles (I've read some of Andrew's work on the subject), but if you snapped a picture of the chart each setup you might be able to find a nice happy medium that would provide a decent average.
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The lack of GCR custom curves is a real show stopper unless they have improved the default curves about 10 fold.
What’s lacking is a curve editor for the black plate as we had in PROFILER and which I found necessary when building some CMYK profiles for digital presses. And unlike PROFILER, there’s no provisions for specifying UCR or GCR but there are curve ‘presets’ for Min, Light, Med etc (even Med+, Heavy+). Its set with a slider with “click stops” (an odd UI convention when it could have just been a popup menu. There are only 9 possible settings).
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Now it does list camera profile creation with the 24 patch chart and sort of suggests that the larger chart can be used, so you could take a picture of that target, develop the film, and profile your scanner/film/development process much like the digital camera profiling.
No, it only makes DNG profiles from a Macbeth. You get a copy of Passport (i1P doesn’t build them directly).
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What's curious about this is that these new clauses didn't just fall into this, someone thought about it and got it written into the EULA.
Not so curious, it's par for the course for X-Rite.
You remember when the Munki was launched and you could only install the software 3 times? Then the renaming of PM5 and orphaning the owners with regards eligibility to upgrade to i1Profiler?
X-Rite have a history of these tactics, to me it seems clear there is some insidious element high up in X-Rite who regards their customers with contempt, "you'll buy our stuff because you've no other choice, so we'll do what we like".
We need a new player in this market.
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Depending on what scanners you are using, you can perhaps profile them with SilverFast's Auto IT8 procedure.
IT8 not so good for profiling, HCT much better, but that requires ProfileMaker (maybe i1Match).
Silverfast also have a general reluctance to keep with the times, we're still waiting on Universal Binaries from them some 5 years after Apple stopped selling PowerPC.
The two pieces of software that will prevent me upgrading to Lion are :
X-Rite/Gretag Profilemaker Pro 5
Lasersoft Silverfast
:(
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IT8 not so good for profiling, HCT much better, but that requires ProfileMaker (maybe i1Match).
Silverfast also have a general reluctance to keep with the times, we're still waiting on Universal Binaries from them some 5 years after Apple stopped selling PowerPC.
The two pieces of software that will prevent me upgrading to Lion are :
X-Rite/Gretag Profilemaker Pro 5
Lasersoft Silverfast
:(
This is largely incorrect. FOGRA has tested SilverFast targets and profiling process extensively and has very positive things to say about it: http://blog.silverfast.com/the-fogra-attests-the-high-quality-of-lasersoft-imagings-it8-targets-and-silverfasts-color-calibration-system/ (http://blog.silverfast.com/the-fogra-attests-the-high-quality-of-lasersoft-imagings-it8-targets-and-silverfasts-color-calibration-system/) That link will take you do downloadable PDFs with details. I have also tested this system rather extensively on three scanners and find it to be generally very good.
SilverFast 6.6.2r4 is fully compatible with Snow Leopard and has been for a long time; I have been doing a lot of scanning with this application on my mid-2010 MacPro with Snow Leopard. The application will be compatible with Lion when the time comes, as they have announced here: http://blog.silverfast.com/lion/comment-page-1/#comment-2147 (http://blog.silverfast.com/lion/comment-page-1/#comment-2147).
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This is largely incorrect. FOGRA has tested SilverFast targets and profiling process extensively and has very positive things to say about it: http://blog.silverfast.com/the-fogra-attests-the-high-quality-of-lasersoft-imagings-it8-targets-and-silverfasts-color-calibration-system/ (http://blog.silverfast.com/the-fogra-attests-the-high-quality-of-lasersoft-imagings-it8-targets-and-silverfasts-color-calibration-system/) That link will take you do downloadable PDFs with details. I have also tested this system rather extensively on three scanners and find it to be generally very good.
Without wishing to veer too far off topic, the article states they're good IT8 targets, and I have no doubts whatsoever that Lasersoft's IT8 targets are just as good as anyone else's, and the method of using them is very clever and convenient to use. But they're still only IT8 targets, which from what I've read were designed only for visual comparisons, not for calibration or profiling. An HCT will always be better IMHO.
SilverFast 6.6.2r4 is fully compatible with Snow Leopard and has been for a long time; I have been doing a lot of scanning with this application on my mid-2010 MacPro with Snow Leopard. The application will be compatible with Lion when the time comes, as they have announced here: http://blog.silverfast.com/lion/comment-page-1/#comment-2147 (http://blog.silverfast.com/lion/comment-page-1/#comment-2147).
They said the same thing when Leopard first came out, and then Snow Leopard, and they're still using PowerPC binaries with a Universal "launcher". :-\
The desktop scanners will no doubt get updated as they're Lasersoft major source of revenue, but those of us who paid not insignificant money for the premium versions of Silverfast for high end scanners will probably get updated several years down the road, or not at all. Regrettably I've learned through bitter experience not to expect too much in responsiveness from Lasersoft, it's a pity, their software is really very very good.
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I use my HCT target with Silverfast's profiling ability regularly, I've also used it with Monaco Gold, and EyeOne software. There is nothing inherently tying Silverfast's profiling with any given target. Quality of profile based on target, and quality of profile based on software, are two different issues.
Tyler
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Only a few people are involved with the EULA and it's undergoing updating as we speak. The final EULA will be effective in all countries. Just stay put until we resolve this and the new EULA is released. No need to jump to conclusions until then.
So you're saying you will retroactively and unilaterally change an existing contract again?
Will you be so forthcoming* next time you choose to tighten restrictions, or will your customers have to plore through the 2,326-word EULA every time they upgrade or apply a patch to the program to catch any changes?
* irony intended, you're informing your customers about this on a forum not related to X-Rite, and only after your customers complained.
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I use my HCT target with Silverfast's profiling ability regularly, I've also used it with Monaco Gold, and EyeOne software. There is nothing inherently tying Silverfast's profiling with any given target. Quality of profile based on target, and quality of profile based on software, are two different issues.
Tyler
This is correct.
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Without wishing to veer too far off topic, the article states they're good IT8 targets, and I have no doubts whatsoever that Lasersoft's IT8 targets are just as good as anyone else's, and the method of using them is very clever and convenient to use. But they're still only IT8 targets, which from what I've read were designed only for visual comparisons, not for calibration or profiling. An HCT will always be better IMHO.
They said the same thing when Leopard first came out, and then Snow Leopard, and they're still using PowerPC binaries with a Universal "launcher". :-\
The desktop scanners will no doubt get updated as they're Lasersoft major source of revenue, but those of us who paid not insignificant money for the premium versions of Silverfast for high end scanners will probably get updated several years down the road, or not at all. Regrettably I've learned through bitter experience not to expect too much in responsiveness from Lasersoft, it's a pity, their software is really very very good.
The difference between you and me is that you've read this or that, whereas I've actually done the work to test it all rather extensively. I think I have a clear, practical fix on its strengths and limitations.
As for the updating of their software, you say "They said the same thing.........". I'm not basing what I said on what they said - I'm basing it on what has actually happened - and what happened is that the usability of their application is fully supported on the most recent Mac operating systems. I use them routinely. Whether it depends on Rosetta or anything else is irrelevant - for now - the point is that it works properly on the now current Mac and Windows operating systems 32-bit and 64-bit.
Needless to say, unless you sit in their marketing department you don't have a clue what tranche of software drives their business, and you can of course engage in idle speculation about how long it will be from the time Lion is launched until compatible updates for high-end scanners become available, but in truth and in fact, you have no idea about that either, nor should anyone expect you to. Just bear in mind that they've been in this business since the 1980s and they can read tea-leaves just as well as you think you can.
Anyhow yes, a bit off-topic, but this is just a suggestion to be factual. I only recommended looking at this approach as an alternative to a missing function in X-Rite's new offering that works, because I know it's a credible option. So I'll just leave it at that.
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* irony intended, you're informing your customers about this on a forum not related to X-Rite, and only after your customers complained.
I'm not XRite, just an independent color consultant who's been working closely with XRite testing this and previous projects for years. A small group of us discovered and have been very vocal about the EULA and are spearheading the changes on everyone's behalf. Should have a new version fairly soon...
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I haven't checked lately, but I assume Heidelberg still has profile creation software to go with their printers, I was always pretty happy with the CMYK profiles produced by Printopen version 4.
I had an old version of PrintOpen and inquired a few years ago about an upgrade path, and was quoted $13,000 though the distributor was happy to knock this down to $10,000. I ended up selling my PrintOpen on eBay for $1 ... the starting price and only one person interested.
Nowadays I use basICColor print 3.1. It's good enough that you can probably ignore i1Profiler. I was hoping for an updated MeasureTool in this release, but seemingly not. I haven't used print 3.1 for CMYK but it would be worth your while evaluating this.
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I'm not XRite, just an independent color consultant who's been working closely with XRite testing this and previous projects for years. A small group of us discovered and have been very vocal about the EULA and are spearheading the changes on everyone's behalf. Should have a new version fairly soon...
It makes a strong impression when a regular customer was all set to buy this, then backs out after reading the comments around the web. That would be me, had they gotten back to my emails slightly faster I would have been on the phone giving them my credit card. I've been talking to Michelle who has been with Xrite for a number years before the Gretag purchase, she is one of the old guard that made me buy into their system in the first place because she helped me out when I had a bunch of old used stuff. Made a big impression on me as a company back then. Now things are a bit different and the customer interaction is a little lesser where the employees may not be allowed to do the things they once did to make the customer feel like they were really important.
I did mention to her that it was sad that the most conversation about this product was the licensing issues, I'm really hoping they get back to me in the next day or two that the license is changed and that things like the GCR curve will be fixed back to what Profiler had. Those are my two big issues that are stopping me. When I started thinking about it, every single profile for my RIP had a modified GCR curve, so trying to live without it is not likely to happen.
For now it appears that Profiler runs fine in the XP emulation mode of Win7 pro and above, I also have my old Printopen 4.x that runs on Java so it should work just fine in either win7 (untested) or XP emulation. Only downside of the XP mode is that you are limited to a single processor and 500MB of memory, and of course making a monitor profile is out. I might move to a VirtualBox install so I can grab another processor and more RAM.
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I had an old version of PrintOpen and inquired a few years ago about an upgrade path, and was quoted $13,000 though the distributor was happy to knock this down to $10,000. I ended up selling my PrintOpen on eBay for $1 ... the starting price and only one person interested.
Nowadays I use basICColor print 3.1. It's good enough that you can probably ignore i1Profiler. I was hoping for an updated MeasureTool in this release, but seemingly not. I haven't used print 3.1 for CMYK but it would be worth your while evaluating this.
I wonder what the difference was. I know there was a full profiling system that was a lot, but the basic Printopen should have been about $2500 and had some nice new features.
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There is nothing inherently tying Silverfast's profiling with any given target.
Tyler
Tyler, I should mention one possible correction here: I'm not sure exactly what you meant by the above phrase. If you meant that you can load any existing non-SilverFast scanner profile made with another application into SilverFast's "Options>CMS>Profile>Input" and use it, this is correct. If you meant that you can actually make a profile using SilverFast's Auto IT8 procedure with an HCT target, that is not correct. The SilverFast Auto IT8 profile-making capability is only feasible using a bar-coded SilverFast IT8 target.
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that must have changed. My older Silverfast targets are not bar coded and I did make profiles from those supplied and others within the app. In fact the ones I got with the app long ago were Wolf Faust's I believe.
So perhaps with some newer Silverfast version I can no longer use the various targets I have, including the hutch. Haven't tried it in a while actually, I since I make them outside of Silverfast now.
Seems an odd and unnecessarily restriction to implement. Are IT8 targets now a life saving income stream???
Sorry if I mislead then, I don't update my version of Silverfast for my Howtek very often.
So, that restricts the scanner profiling options even further for me, to my old apps, and I share the concerns expressed by others.
Tyler
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that must have changed. My older Silverfast targets are not bar coded and I did make profiles from those supplied and others within the app. In fact the ones I got with the app long ago were Wolf Faust's I believe.
So perhaps with some newer Silverfast version I can no longer use the various targets I have, including the hutch. Haven't tried it in a while actually, I since I make them outside of Silverfast now.
Seems an odd and unnecessarily restriction to implement. Are IT8 targets now a life saving income stream???
Sorry if I mislead then, I don't update my version of Silverfast for my Howtek very often.
So, that restricts the scanner profiling options even further for me, to my old apps, and I share the concerns expressed by others.
Tyler
What's probably changed is that they introduced a highly automated procedure for generating and implementing scanner profiles, and that required a specific target layout with its corresponding reference file. So nowadays you have a choice of using their target with their in-built profile calculator, or using another target, generating the profile with third-party software, and using it in SilverFast - or other colour-managed scanning software.
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The difference between you and me is that you've read this or that, whereas I've actually done the work to test it all rather extensively. I think I have a clear, practical fix on its strengths and limitations.
That was an unnecessarily aggressive tone of response Mark, and uncalled for.
You assume that I have not made my own tests. You assume incorrectly. I have at least four IT8 targets and an HCT. I make no claims of expertise, nor that my results trump yours or anyone else's, they were designed to satisfy me alone, but I refute that I haven't "actually done the work", cmon now, that is an unfair assumption...
You also misread my post. The only thing I claimed to have read was that IT8 targets were not originally designed for digital calibration/profiling but visual comparison, this information came from expert sources such as Bruce Fraser's Color Management book, or Andrew Rodney's book, or Don Hutcheson's website, I forget which one, does it matter? The expertise of all these people I hold in high regard. Neither did I state that IT8 targets were completely unusable for such purposes, I offered a polite opinion that I believe an HCT is better, as evidenced by "IMHO", which for those not familiar with the term means "In My Humble Opinion". I thought I was pretty clear about presenting an opinion and not a fact.
As for the updating of their software, you say "They said the same thing.........". I'm not basing what I said on what they said - I'm basing it on what has actually happened - and what happened is that the usability of their application is fully supported on the most recent Mac operating systems. I use them routinely. Whether it depends on Rosetta or anything else is irrelevant - for now - the point is that it works properly on the now current Mac and Windows operating systems 32-bit and 64-bit.
I know Silverfast still runs, I use it too. My opinion is that it's more a case of OS-X still supporting old Silverfast than Silverfast supporting new OS-X, based upon the fact (yes, fact) that they are still today producing PowerPC only binaries, not Intel binaries, nor even Universal ones, for core modules. Will they produce a fully Lion compatible Intel binary? Of course they will. In time. But recent communication with Lasersoft over the last couple of days suggest to me (more speculation!) that they are rather hoping that Rosetta will still be included in Lion (their speculation!). Personally I hope they're right and it is, it will solve a lot of potential upgrade hurdles with older software like ProfileMaker.
Needless to say, unless you sit in their marketing department you don't have a clue what tranche of software drives their business, and you can of course engage in idle speculation about how long it will be from the time Lion is launched until compatible updates for high-end scanners become available, but in truth and in fact, you have no idea about that either, nor should anyone expect you to. Just bear in mind that they've been in this business since the 1980s and they can read tea-leaves just as well as you think you can.
Sorry, but this is just point scoring pedantry. Of course I'm speculating! Any suggestion of what might happen in the future is speculation. I don't need you to tell me that. Should I go through your posts and highlight where you've done the same? Let's not eh? :)
Based up on my own experience with Lasersoft, and the open dialog I've had with them over the last 5 years on the particular subject of Universal Binaries, my expectation (speculation again!) that I will have a Universal or Intel binary available to me for my Howtek anywhere near the release of Lion is very low. That is all I have stated.
Anyhow yes, a bit off-topic, but this is just a suggestion to be factual.
Then please accept my humble suggestion to not take everything posted on a internet forum as being purported to be factual, and that you need to denounce it. :)
I only recommended looking at this approach as an alternative to a missing function in X-Rite's new offering that works, because I know it's a credible option. So I'll just leave it at that.
For use with an IT8 it's a very definite option, let us hope it doesn't turn out to be the only one if X-Rite don't rethink their policy on scanner profiling. For thus of us who prefer an HCT and wish to continue so, it seems that is not a workable option for use with that target, at least for the moment. Perhaps an opportunity for Lasersoft?
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Yes, I made inferences based on what I read in your post and what I know of the software. I may have misunderstood you and I apologize for that.
LSI has done considerable work to maintain the functionality of SilverFast in Snow Leopard, and I do know they are working likewise for Lion, but whether a Howtek version will be ready exactly when Lion appears, I agree, we don't know. There are many scanner models for which to whip the application into line.
I agree that in principle HCT targets should be at least as good if not better than LSI's IT8 (but I haven't tested this in practice, so can't say for sure). I think it would be eminently reasonable for them to have a look at the HCT target as a basis for their Auto profiling tool and I suggested this quite a long time ago. Of course the inconveniences to them are that (1) the HCT target is proprietary so they would need to do a deal with the owner, and (2) they would need to reprogram and test their algorithm and tweak it for each scanner model, so clearly a non-trivial undertaking. Here I'm speculating - I think reasonably - that they would need to be convinced it's really a whole lot better than what they're doing and be able to market it as such if they were to invest the resources needed to do it. I think it's an idea still worth keeping on the table, in the sense that if in fact X-Rite is vacating the field of scanner profiling software and all the owners of HCT targets wish to continue using them to create new profiles with emerging operating systems, the commercial attractiveness of such an option may be reasonable.
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LSI has done considerable work to maintain the functionality of SilverFast in Snow Leopard, and I do know they are working likewise for Lion
I think they're probably working overtime at the moment! It is my belief their efforts are focused on a major new release for this year, 7.0 or something, and they have given me good reason, but of course without officially admitting anything. ;D
My concern is that those efforts may be solely on this and not on updating what might soon be a "legacy" catalog, and so if this new dot release is not ready in time for Lion's release, there may be no way to use current Silverfast on the new OS with any scanners. In fairness it is not at all unreasonable for a smallish organisation to focus it's limited development resources on a major new release, it makes perfect sense and I would neither expect them to release a major new revision until it's ready, but because of the open issue over lack of Universal Binaries which has been running for 5 years now without resolution, this could come back to bite them and their customers. I guess we'll find out in due course.
but whether a Howtek version will be ready exactly when Lion appears, I agree, we don't know. There are many scanner models for which to whip the application into line.
I honestly wouldn't expect there to be a Howtek version available straight away, it's surely way down the pecking order, their most common models would, and should be the priority. My concern is not that a Howtek version will be available so I can update to Lion straight away, but that those less common (but premium priced) models will be dropped altogether, and thus only the old PowerPC binary will be available, blocking future OS upgrade paths completely. A critical bug went unfixed in the Howtek version for some time because Lasersoft's Howtek broke and they couldn't lay their hands on a replacement, it has to be a niche segment of their catalogue, so I'm distinctly aware I'm hanging on by my fingertips anyway. I would really rather not be forced into finding a different scanner or scanning software, I like my scanner, and support issues aside, I personally have yet to see the equal to Silverfast in scanning capability.
I agree that in principle HCT targets should be at least as good if not better than LSI's IT8 (but I haven't tested this in practice, so can't say for sure). I think it would be eminently reasonable for them to have a look at the HCT target as a basis for their Auto profiling tool and I suggested this quite a long time ago. Of course the inconveniences to them are that (1) the HCT target is proprietary so they would need to do a deal with the owner, and (2) they would need to reprogram and test their algorithm and tweak it for each scanner model, so clearly a non-trivial undertaking. Here I'm speculating - I think reasonably - that they would need to be convinced it's really a whole lot better than what they're doing and be able to market it as such if they were to invest the resources needed to do it. I think it's an idea still worth keeping on the table, in the sense that if in fact X-Rite is vacating the field of scanner profiling software and all the owners of HCT targets wish to continue using them to create new profiles with emerging operating systems, the commercial attractiveness of such an option may be reasonable.
I think it would be a nice feather in LSI's cap to have that capability, but as you say, there are factors to consider, and I suspect they have other priorities at the moment :)
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Since it looks like you will continue to have trouble with new Mac OS upgrades, why not just get a cheap PC running Win7 and use that for your scanner needs? It should be pretty cheap as long as you only need to run the scanning software (of course you could always end the Mac problems once and for all and move over to the very stable Win7 OS but that might be too much to ask).
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Since it looks like you will continue to have trouble with new Mac OS upgrades, why not just get a cheap PC running Win7 and use that for your scanner needs? It should be pretty cheap as long as you only need to run the scanning software (of course you could always end the Mac problems once and for all and move over to the very stable Win7 OS but that might be too much to ask).
Alan, interesting you should suggest this. As you know, I'm a pretty brand-agnostic guy. Whatever works. But fair is fair, and some things just work better than others. For me, the life of Windows was 1991-2010. It's over with and I'm now totally and happily on Mac, EXCEPT for two pieces of legacy software - back to X-Rite, the topic of this thread - ColorShop X which came bundled with the Pulse Elite profiling package. The last version of that was 2006 and it will never be upgraded beyond Windows XP, so I kept my old XP laptop ONLY for that one piece of software and one other not made for Mac. By some happenstance even the X-Rite techs were surprised to hear about, XRite Pulse Elite (for the profiling) works on Mac 10.6.4., but come Lion all bets are off, so that will probably be the third item for the laptop. ColorShop X has a wonderful utility called a Color Scratchpad, which allows you to take readings of printed colours with the spectro and see them instantly and effortlessly analyzed into their L*a*b*, and RGB components in a nice layout on your display. This is great for round-tripping profiles to test for accuracy between print and file data. None of X-Rite's fancy profiling software has anything like this, nor does ColorThink Pro. X-Rite promises me that ColorSHop X will not work on Windows 7 period. Recall, not everything that is legacy Windows and worked on XP is assured to work on Win7, no matter how good an OS it is reputed to be. I run Win7 Pro once in a while on my new MacBook Pro under Parallels. So another option for *djoy* may be to stick with the Mac, buy Parallels (pretty cheap), install Win7 (not so cheap) as a virtual machine under Parallels and run the scanning software from there, as SilverFast is Win7-compliant as far as I know. But I don't think it will come to that. Whether it happens the day Lion comes out, who knows, and this is hypothesizing on my part, but I can't imagine SilverFast's very large user base being deprived for long. I can relate to his concern about the Howtek scanner. Really top-rate film scanners have become scarce and very costly, so it's worthwhile hanging-in for a solution.
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Since it looks like you will continue to have trouble with new Mac OS upgrades, why not just get a cheap PC running Win7 and use that for your scanner needs? It should be pretty cheap as long as you only need to run the scanning software (of course you could always end the Mac problems once and for all and move over to the very stable Win7 OS but that might be too much to ask).
Yes, I have options, but after years of having clearly far too many computers kicking around, I'm on a downsizing drive ;)
Mostly use VMWare Fusion on the Mac Pro to run Windows and Unix VMs now (similar to Mark's suggestion), so running the software in Windows is a backup plan, but I try to avoid Windows if I can. My best option at the moment is an aging 2006 Macbook Pro which I could keep just to run the scanning/profiling software (as it also nicely has a Firewire 400 port for the FW->SCSI converter). Just doing all this stuff on the one big machine with all the memory is so much easier. ;D
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I use Oracle's Virtual Box emulator. Free, with some license restrictions.
Edmund
Alan, interesting you should suggest this. As you know, I'm a pretty brand-agnostic guy. Whatever works. But fair is fair, and some things just work better than others. For me, the life of Windows was 1991-2010. It's over with and I'm now totally and happily on Mac, EXCEPT for two pieces of legacy software - back to X-Rite, the topic of this thread - ColorShop X which came bundled with the Pulse Elite profiling package. The last version of that was 2006 and it will never be upgraded beyond Windows XP, so I kept my old XP laptop ONLY for that one piece of software and one other not made for Mac. By some happenstance even the X-Rite techs were surprised to hear about, XRite Pulse Elite (for the profiling) works on Mac 10.6.4., but come Lion all bets are off, so that will probably be the third item for the laptop. ColorShop X has a wonderful utility called a Color Scratchpad, which allows you to take readings of printed colours with the spectro and see them instantly and effortlessly analyzed into their L*a*b*, and RGB components in a nice layout on your display. This is great for round-tripping profiles to test for accuracy between print and file data. None of X-Rite's fancy profiling software has anything like this, nor does ColorThink Pro. X-Rite promises me that ColorSHop X will not work on Windows 7 period. Recall, not everything that is legacy Windows and worked on XP is assured to work on Win7, no matter how good an OS it is reputed to be. I run Win7 Pro once in a while on my new MacBook Pro under Parallels. So another option for *djoy* may be to stick with the Mac, buy Parallels (pretty cheap), install Win7 (not so cheap) as a virtual machine under Parallels and run the scanning software from there, as SilverFast is Win7-compliant as far as I know. But I don't think it will come to that. Whether it happens the day Lion comes out, who knows, and this is hypothesizing on my part, but I can't imagine SilverFast's very large user base being deprived for long. I can relate to his concern about the Howtek scanner. Really top-rate film scanners have become scarce and very costly, so it's worthwhile hanging-in for a solution.