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Author Topic: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0  (Read 101741 times)

richardhagen

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2011, 10:47:57 pm »

Cut the sleezy sales bs.

BOOYAH!!! you took the words right out of my mouth! thanks paul.

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2011, 11:00:57 pm »

Cut the sleezy sales bs. If someone had said "the new backs are fantastic!" would you have felt the need to chime in with "maybe 'fantastic' for you"?

Cut me a break. I'm tired - not enough sleep the last 72 hours!  ;D

You know I'm not a sleezy sales guy  8)

BobDavid

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2011, 11:18:48 pm »

All I can say, is that these 60mp and 80mp backs will yield excellent hand-held results if you're using strobes  in the studio. Otherwise, you'll need to lock up the mirror (to lose mirror-slap vibrations) and stick the camera onto a tripod to avoid human shake. This kind of resolution will amplify the vibrations caused by the Prius pulling up into the studio parking lot. A friend of mine metioned that aerial photography is a good application for these ultra-high resolution backs. That makes sense.

Whether aloft or earthbound, it's a given that super-duper optics mated with vibration-free shutters are required to get the most from these mega-sensors.

The main reason I use a CF 39MS back is color accuracy for fine art reproduction. If I didn't shoot artwork, I'd be content with a regular 39MP back. The Sony a850 sees a lot of use these days.

Interesting times. It would be fun to play around with the IQ 80. If so, I'd probably need to install a solid state terabyte drive for a Photoshop scratch disc and piggy-back my I-7 motherboard with another.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 11:24:39 pm by BobDavid »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2011, 11:32:41 pm »

Cut the sleezy sales bs. If someone had said "the new backs are fantastic!" would you have felt the need to chime in with "maybe 'fantastic' for you"?


We are nothing if not sleazy!  ;)

But this is not bs.

We have an incredible variety of clients. Aside from the many various conditions, environments, and subjects they deal with, what works for one individual who photographs in similar situations as another is often completely different and extremely subjective. So, yes we're alert to the idea that a feature lacking for one is declared a problem or flaw in the product.

Honestly sometimes I just think it is the language - and it is the internet. Hard to say.

But I'd love a product that had all the boxes checked. Unfortunately I've never met such a thing.

And Doug is not even in sales. I'm supposed to be the sleazy sales guy...

I actually like the idea of saying "maybe fantastic for you! I'm going to try it sometime.


Steve Hendrix
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jduncan

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #104 on: January 24, 2011, 11:45:50 pm »

Cheers to Phase one. The backs look head and shoulders above the competency.  Is nice to see that they invest in core technologies including internal processing. Instead of trying to force the old chips to handle the new sensors and displays. They avoided a pipeline that lacks the performance to handle the sensor and the display. I also believe that the new backs are an excellent platform for the future.  The comparative chart is quiet telling. Is the H4D-60 double resolution working? they seem generous with the competency. That alone tell us how confident they are in the new line.

I have a couple questions:
1. In capture integration the buffer is listed as 1.5GB. Is this a typo? in any case the important number is the fps and the numbers are impressive :)
2. Dynamic range vs the P65+ any ideas or comments. Sensor+
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 11:50:25 pm by jduncan »
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bradleygibson

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2011, 11:56:59 pm »

We are nothing if not sleazy!  ;)

LOL!!  Love the sense of humor, Steve!  :)

Sorry if this has been asked, but does anyone know if the IQ180 and the Aptus-II 12 are using the same chip?  I don't imagine Dalsa has too many different 80MP designs laying around, but then again, who knows, two isn't that implausible...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 11:59:03 pm by bradleygibson »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #106 on: January 24, 2011, 11:58:43 pm »

Hi,

On the DR issue, reducing the sensor pitch from say 6my to 5.2 my would reduce "full well size" with 25%. I don't think that it would have any major effect on DR.

On the diffraction issue, diffraction is a property of light, so it would not be affected sensor size. The only parameters affecting diffraction is size of aperture and wavelength of light. The only way sensor pitch affects diffraction is that with a smaller sensor pitch there is more to loose. You will probably see no difference between a 16MP sensor and a 80 MP sensor somewhere around f/22 or f/32.

The series below show the effects of diffraction on an APS sensor with 4.2 micron pitch and also the effect of defocusing 3, 6 and 9 cm at 3.0 meters using a 100 macro lens:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/49-dof-in-digital-pictures?start=1


Best regards
Erik




OK , I won't debate the point on DR (even though the sensor spec sheets quote lower SNR numbers for most of the chips made after the 9micron ones (at least for Kodak)).   Maybe the difference is made up in the other electronics?

However for DOF concerns,  doesn't the sensel size make a difference because of diffraction effects? 2nd question: Does the sensor plus technology help mitigate the diffraction loses for small apertures? I mean if a group of pixels is binned does it act like a larger sensor well?

And just to add....definitely I'd consider purchasing one of the new phase backs if I could fit one to my cameras as I am looking at the AFi-ii 12 now.   I really like the phase software and the new interface and screen look fantastic.



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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #107 on: January 25, 2011, 12:02:58 am »

Cheers to Phase one. The backs look head and shoulders above the competency.  Is nice to see that they invest in core technologies including internal processing. Instead of trying to force the old chips to handle the new sensors and displays. They avoided a pipeline that lacks the performance to handle the sensor and the display. I also believe that the new backs are an excellent platform for the future.  The comparative chart is quiet telling. Is the H4D-60 double resolution working? they seem generous with the competency. That alone tell us how confident they are in the new line.

I have a couple questions:
1. In capture integration the buffer is listed as 1.5GB. Is this a typo? in any case the important number is the fps and the numbers are impressive :)
2. Dynamic range vs the P65+ any ideas or comments. Sensor+


Maybe nice for you JDuncan!

There.

I don't know if I can answer your questions. Not sure about the buffer - it may be 1GB, rather than 1.5Gb, but I will confirm this with Doug. I expect the dynamic range to be very similar as it is the same (base) sensor, I believe. But these are entirely new and advanced on board electronics, so I suppose it is possible there's enhancement. We can test this at the USA Dealer IQ Series launch in Atlanta on February 8.


Steve Hendrix
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:05:17 am by Steve Hendrix »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #108 on: January 25, 2011, 01:50:33 am »


 You will probably see no difference between a 16MP sensor and a 80 MP sensor somewhere around f/22 or f/32.


In a way I have already made this comparison myself.  I do see diffraction effects on my ixpress between f/16 an f/22 on single or 4 shot mode (9um sensel), but around f/8 (maybe even f/6.8) when its set to microstep mode (effective 4.5 um sensel).  There's an article here on LuLa that has a table where the maximum useful MP for a given sensor size and aperture.  The table even breaks it down by wavelength of light.  

 Edit: I've found it!  Scroll down to table 3. in the article.... http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/resolution.shtml     Well have a look.... the table corroborates with my empirical data.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 02:04:14 am by EricWHiss »
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HarperPhotos

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #109 on: January 25, 2011, 04:32:16 am »

Hello

Well my take on this new development is.

I have a Leaf Aptus 75 which is now close to been 5 years old. I has made me 100’s of thousand of dollars and it is still going strong. So what the point of spending my hard earned money on another back. Its is not going to increases my income by one cent.
 
Cheers

Simon
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eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #110 on: January 25, 2011, 07:12:02 am »

Cheers to Phase one. The backs look head and shoulders above the competency.

I do agree.  :D

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MrSmith

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #111 on: January 25, 2011, 07:45:04 am »

you forgot 'a usable 400-800 asa and not a grainy noisefest'
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aaron

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #112 on: January 25, 2011, 09:40:52 am »

Phase must know something about the state of global economies that nobody else does.

The price of most items is going down(or at worst remains the same)  while the specs go up. That applies to cameras/cars/houses/ Tv's, but not to Phase One products.

Every potential customer screams for a better lcd display and live view. Well years later Phase delivers it! except they now want you loyal customers to pay thousands more for the privilege.

Ridiculous. The prices are a joke. 
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bcooter

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #113 on: January 25, 2011, 09:43:28 am »

Hello

Well my take on this new development is.

I have a Leaf Aptus 75 which is now close to been 5 years old. I has made me 100’s of thousand of dollars and it is still going strong. So what the point of spending my hard earned money on another back. Its is not going to increases my income by one cent.


Simon,

I don't think they're selling to you.

Sure they'll take the order, but if you glance (glance not read) over all the e-mails and web links Phase has sent out on this camera they mention image quality about 4,000 times.

Heck they even named it I(mage) Q(qualtiy).

I'm surprised they didn't name it SIQ.

It's kind of like going to a Southern Baptist Church and hearing the phrase "Hell and Damnation".    They say it so much it becomes kind of funny and they sell it so hard it makes you wanna take the preacher's daughter out to really go sin.

No I think this is all for the semi wealthy guy or the semi professional that thinks a camera will make them a better photographer.

This is for the guy who really doesn't know that most of all good commercial work is shot with a Canon or Nikon dslr and 75% of all medium format for professionals is shot with some kind of Hasselblad camera with some kind of 1 generation old digital back.

For the last few years Phase' market has been pushing that way, think PODAS, so they use phrases like "the most advancement in mfd cameras ever" because the people that don't know any better believe it.

Well . . . no this is not the most advancement.  

The Leaf AFI with a flip up LCD and internal rotating sensor  was way more advanced, because those things were useful for a professional and Leaf had a touch screen LCD a billion years ago.

All this is is just another digital back with more megapixels and a better lcd, but heck at this point everything on the planet has a good LCD.

If it was the most advanced it wouldn't be aimed at the third time warmed over Mamiya camera.

But, once again they're not selling to you, because if they were it would have a base iso of 800, in internal nd filter, real useable live view, an hdmi port for an optional high def lcd, a removable prism or no prism at all and it wouldn't have that tacky $4,000 warranty hooked to it.

It would be truly modular and the phrase "open system" would mean it has a back mount that would be user interchangeable and would shoot at least at the same speed as a film medium format camera.  

Contrast this Phase announcement to RED.

If Phase was selling to you they would have a direct line and manufacturer representation on the forums.

The information you would receive would be first hand from the maker, not second hand from the dealer.  

Not that RED is the pinnacle of medium format because RED is not medium format for stills and RED is not the pinnacle of meeting deadlines because they have missed a bunch of them,  but RED has the owners participation on their forum and everything RED makes or sells is aimed directly at professionals.

Everything.

But then again, I don't think RED is pressuring anybody to buy anything (in fact go try and buy a new EPIC), though if you run the numbers for the last few years RED has conservatively sold half a billion dollars in product.  Probably a lot more than that.

But then again, the RED is truly innovative for the professional.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:59:06 am by bcooter »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #114 on: January 25, 2011, 11:51:39 am »

Hello

Well my take on this new development is.

I have a Leaf Aptus 75 which is now close to been 5 years old. I has made me 100’s of thousand of dollars and it is still going strong. So what the point of spending my hard earned money on another back. Its is not going to increases my income by one cent.
 
Cheers

Simon


Simon, don't buy the upgrade. It doesn't offer features you're missing. It is a great testament to medium format that your Aptus 75 can still function as your workhorse 5 years after you've bought it.


Steve Hendrix
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mhecker*

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #115 on: January 25, 2011, 11:55:18 am »

Simon,

I don't think they're selling to you.

No I think this is all for the semi wealthy guy or the semi professional that thinks a camera will make them a better photographer.



I believe this is right on the mark.

Phase One is using the Leica market strategy.
The big question is  will the world be big enough for two MF players in Leicas niche?

Time will tell.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #116 on: January 25, 2011, 12:12:27 pm »

Phase must know something about the state of global economies that nobody else does.

The price of most items is going down(or at worst remains the same)  while the specs go up. That applies to cameras/cars/houses/ Tv's, but not to Phase One products.

Every potential customer screams for a better lcd display and live view. Well years later Phase delivers it! except they now want you loyal customers to pay thousands more for the privilege.

Ridiculous. The prices are a joke. 


The price of a top of the line DSLR has been $7,995 and remains unchanged since 2002, with the launch of the 11MP Canon 1DS. Prices don't always go down. In fact, most of the time, prices on most products worldwide - cars, houses, food, Canon cameras, either go up or remain unchanged.

The pricing on the IQ series is not significantly different than traditional medium format digital pricing. The P65+ launched 2.5 years ago, was $39,990. The P40+ launched at $19,990.

Phase One almost always offers trade credit on your existing product well above what you could sell it for. I see nothing ridiculous or unfair about Phase One's pricing.


Steve Hendrix
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eronald

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #117 on: January 25, 2011, 12:28:37 pm »


The price of a top of the line DSLR has been $7,995 and remains unchanged since 2002, with the launch of the 11MP Canon 1DS. Prices don't always go down. In fact, most of the time, prices on most products worldwide - cars, houses, food, Canon cameras, either go up or remain unchanged.

The pricing on the IQ series is not significantly different than traditional medium format digital pricing. The P65+ launched 2.5 years ago, was $39,990. The P40+ launched at $19,990.

Phase One almost always offers trade credit on your existing product well above what you could sell it for. I see nothing ridiculous or unfair about Phase One's pricing.


Steve Hendrix

Steve,

 You don't see anything ridiculous or unfair about this pricing?
 Maybe we as customers have different opinions at this point.
 I wouldn't call it unfair, just priced in fantasy-land.
 Good luck making us pay. And I say this as a Phase owner.
 I'm setting up a shoot next week with an award-winning film producer, and this is going to be done on an iPhone. I'm sure you'll enjoy the laugh.

Edmund

« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:35:29 pm by eronald »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #118 on: January 25, 2011, 12:40:54 pm »

I'm setting up a shoot next week with an award-winning film producer, and this is going to be done on an iPhone. I'm sure you'll enjoy the laugh.

Is it being done for a reason other than the following:
 - intellectual curiosity ("I wonder if / how well we can make this work")
 - cross promotional / novelty appeal ("this will get us links from blogs & articles")
 - complete lack of budget

If so I'm very curious.

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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0
« Reply #119 on: January 25, 2011, 12:53:57 pm »

I'd hate to see the vitriol if Phase One delivered just what was being asked for (a usable LCD and Live View). You ask and ask (justifiably), and then they deliver (and dramatically exceed what was being asked for), and then you complain about how long it took. But I am surprised at how much the improvements are being glossed over. If it was indeed just a "better LCD screen", say 460,000 or even 920,000 standard LCD, I'd be a little disappointed also. But frankly, I think the reactions are a little bit of sour grapes, a little bit of piling on the easy target, medium format.

It's a little more than a better LCD and Live View. I think "better LCD" drastically understates the display technology and functionality:

*3.2 inch Retina Touch Dispay with the highest resolution of any professional camera
*Dual interface options (touch screen, or button-based)
*Swipe-technology Touch Screen Interface
*Button based, simple interface workflow
*Multiple interface options including USB2, USB3, FW400, FW800
*In Camera Focus Mask
*In Camera battery charger
*1GB buffer, UDMA 6, 9 Cores, zero shot pauses, fill the entire card
*Dual Resolution with no sensor crop
*In Camera Live View
*Aerospace Grade Aluminum

Does it have a flip out LCD? No. Guess what? Neither does any professional product from Canon or Nikon (they will eventually). But they don't today. Does the sensor internally rotate? No (not that it is possible with 3 of the primary camera interfaces it would be used on (Mamiya/Phase, Hassselbald H, Contax). It would be nice though. Perhaps that remains Leaf's niche.

Considering that recent generations have primarily only been about adding megapixels (22MP>39MP, etc), I find this the most significant upgrade for medium format in years (although I also feel the Sensor Plus technology was incredibly important and will be even more so in the future).

Medium format costs more. It is larger. It is slower. Use it for what it is for. However, I feel these products do represent an opportunity for photographers to use these products much more than they would previously. It would be great if medium format wasn't so expensive, and as a result, more viable for more of the commercial market. It was a tough buying decision 5 years ago. Today - even more so. From the interest, it would seem many want large sensors. But the technology has inherent limitations and is incredibly expensive to bring to market.


Steve Hendrix






 
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