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Author Topic: rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD  (Read 160940 times)

Steve Hendrix

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #380 on: May 22, 2010, 01:42:15 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
I understand  it very well instead...
They did not improve the LCD, because simply could get away with it since most of the competitors did not have anything better.


I agree this was probably a factor. And regardless of the quality of the LCD, the limitation of the in camera preview file lessens the advantage of a high resolution LCD, even if one were in place. My sense is that introducing a larger, higher resolution sensor in a Phase One back requires a complete re-design of the chassis (not a bad idea   ). But that also means a considerable expense of R&D and essentially time frames for delivery are strained as a new chassis is somewhat of an unknown. Surveying the landscape from 3-4 years ago, Phase One may indeed have concluded that no competitor was prepared to offer enhanced in camera processing and higher resolution LCD's, at least for some time (like maybe this year with Pentax, Oh! and forgot about Sinar *e65*....).

As a result, they may have felt that devoting R&D funds into Sensor Plus and whatever was involved with obtaining and successfully providing the Dalsa 60MP sensor well before any competitor could was a more prudent use of their funds. I'm not advocating their course (having to deal with that LCD has been incredibly frustrating) but I could see where this might have been part of the strategy and from that perspective, while I might not agree with it, I could understand the rational.

Note - this is only my personal speculation and consideration. Over the years, I have asked each manufacturer I have experience with (Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, Phase One) why they don't improve the LCD's and have never gotten an answer I felt made sense. So...this is my own conclusion.


Steve Hendrix
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fredjeang

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #381 on: May 22, 2010, 03:18:42 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
I agree this was probably a factor. And regardless of the quality of the LCD, the limitation of the in camera preview file lessens the advantage of a high resolution LCD, even if one were in place. My sense is that introducing a larger, higher resolution sensor in a Phase One back requires a complete re-design of the chassis (not a bad idea   ). But that also means a considerable expense of R&D and essentially time frames for delivery are strained as a new chassis is somewhat of an unknown. Surveying the landscape from 3-4 years ago, Phase One may indeed have concluded that no competitor was prepared to offer enhanced in camera processing and higher resolution LCD's, at least for some time (like maybe this year with Pentax, Oh! and forgot about Sinar *e65*....).

As a result, they may have felt that devoting R&D funds into Sensor Plus and whatever was involved with obtaining and successfully providing the Dalsa 60MP sensor well before any competitor could was a more prudent use of their funds. I'm not advocating their course (having to deal with that LCD has been incredibly frustrating) but I could see where this might have been part of the strategy and from that perspective, while I might not agree with it, I could understand the rational.

Note - this is only my personal speculation and consideration. Over the years, I have asked each manufacturer I have experience with (Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, Phase One) why they don't improve the LCD's and have never gotten an answer I felt made sense. So...this is my own conclusion.


Steve Hendrix
Steve,

IMO they built their system arrownd the tethered stuff so a great lcd was not relevant in their design. I still do not think it is that much, it would be nice but what is happening is that a new player is putting them in a sort of embarassing position.

I would prefer they improove the tether task and instead of rebuilding sensors designs, that they could work on offering softwares and screen solutions included in the price.
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BernardLanguillier

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #382 on: May 22, 2010, 07:02:24 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
As a result, they may have felt that devoting R&D funds into Sensor Plus and whatever was involved with obtaining and successfully providing the Dalsa 60MP sensor well before any competitor could was a more prudent use of their funds. I'm not advocating their course (having to deal with that LCD has been incredibly frustrating) but I could see where this might have been part of the strategy and from that perspective, while I might not agree with it, I could understand the rational.

That is understandable within their business model based on small series/high prices. Not enough cash to handle several projects in parallel.

Now the real question is whether such a business model makes sense in the long run. Are photographers going to accept much longer to spend 5 times more to get a bit more resolution and a lot less convenience?  The gap between 40 and 60 megapixel is in fact small when considered in terms of printing size, look at 24 inch instead of 20. Put the other way, it is the difference between being able to print a 24 inch image at 360 dpi vs being able to print it at 300 dpi.

Cheers,
Bernard

Steve Hendrix

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #383 on: May 22, 2010, 07:34:07 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
That is understandable within their business model based on small series/high prices. Not enough cash to handle several projects in parallel.

Now the real question is whether such a business model makes sense in the long run. Are photographers going to accept much longer to spend 5 times more to get a bit more resolution and a lot less convenience?  The gap between 40 and 60 megapixel is in fact small when considered in terms of printing size, look at 24 inch instead of 20. Put the other way, it is the difference between being able to print a 24 inch image at 360 dpi vs being able to print it at 300 dpi.

Cheers,
Bernard


I don't think that is exclusively Phase One's long term business model, though it will always be a primary component of it. More resolution, for those that want it, will always be appreciated. I have read for years how X MP's are enough. And then they buy more. To be sure, the lack of significant other enhancements has shrunk the medium format market. But as I said, I don't see that as ignoring it on their part. I believe they want those enhancements and are working on them. But what is ready and makes sense competitively for a given 2-3 year period is what gets released.

And I believe largely, photographers have already made that decision anyway. There hasn't been anything stopping photographers from shooting 35mm and dropping medium format and many of them have - especially commercially (and for many reasons). That started with the original 1DS and really began in ernest with the 5D and 5DMKII. I believe that playing field is largely settled.

We sell to photographers who want medium format and we do very well, though our commercial market is smaller than years ago. We rarely are asked to engage in discussions of 35mm vs medium format. They want medium format and have accepted whatever compromises are in place in exchange for what they value. That isn't to say they don't wish for the same enhancements that we all do.


Steve Hendrix
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douglasf13

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #384 on: May 22, 2010, 07:51:40 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
The current 20mp+ crop of DSLR are already very diffraction limited.
When you stop down from f8 to f11 the loss of detail is quite significant, not mentioning f16.
I believe that most of the studio/fashion/ad/portrait photographers, what ever they are using a Canon, Nikon or Sony of more than 20mp, are experiencing this fact.

Going up to 30mpx and plus on a 24-36mm sensor will be challenging and may not offer any tangible improvement on the final results.

A larger sensor of 40mp will always offer an advantage that DSLR will not be able to overcome.


The Pentax is butt ugly, but it seems that it has a very good interface in terms of buttons and menus, definitively better than mamiya/phase and maybe hasselblad as well.

Then as you pointed out, ther may be shortage of lenses and lack of customer care.
Though pentax products are well distributed around the world if compared to other MF offering and you cannot exactly fix any Hasselblad and phase around the corner in any city.
Fedex and UPS are the best partners of these companies.

  Diffraction is noticeable with the 25MP DSLRs at f8 or so, but that's not to say that more megapixels isn't welcome.  A lens will have the same diffraction regardless of how many megapixels the sensor behind it has.  The difference being that you simply see the diffraction more with more megapixels.  So you're not better of with less megapixels, when it comes to diffraction, but, rather, the lower resolution just doesn't show the problem.  Increasing resolution will still be advantageous at the wider aperture settings, so, if you're an f2 shooter, megapixels going up is a good thing.  If you're an F11 shooter, it won't get any better or worse.


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ziocan

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #385 on: May 23, 2010, 01:02:58 am »

Quote from: douglasf13
Diffraction is noticeable with the 25MP DSLRs at f8 or so, but that's not to say that more megapixels isn't welcome.  A lens will have the same diffraction regardless of how many megapixels the sensor behind it has.  The difference being that you simply see the diffraction more with more megapixels.  So you're not better of with less megapixels, when it comes to diffraction, but, rather, the lower resolution just doesn't show the problem.  Increasing resolution will still be advantageous at the wider aperture settings, so, if you're an f2 shooter, megapixels going up is a good thing.  If you're an F11 shooter, it won't get any better or worse.
for the reason you explained, I believe that photographing at f8 and above we are less likely of seeing tangible improvement on the final output, if we increase the megapixel from 24 to 30 something.
Said that.... when Sony or Canon will announce the next FF camera, I will preorder it.

I believe the size of the sensor and pixel pitch are correlated with diffraction, though they are not the cause as you pointed out.
it seems to me, that images are likely to be less effected by diffraction on a larger sensor.

that is what I see shooting both 24mpx 35mm sensor and Phase one cameras and backs.
with the larger sensor I need of going up to f16/22 before diffraction begin bothering me, were with the 35mm, as you said, already at f8 is a factor, though it bothers really only starting at f11.
 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 01:18:27 am by ziocan »
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bcooter

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #386 on: May 23, 2010, 12:29:41 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix
snip................

As a result, they may have felt that devoting R&D funds into Sensor Plus and whatever was involved with obtaining and successfully providing the Dalsa 60MP sensor well before any competitor could was a more prudent use of their funds. I'm not advocating their course (having to deal with that LCD has been incredibly frustrating) but I could see where this might have been part of the strategy and from that perspective, while I might not agree with it, I could understand the rational.

Note - this is only my personal speculation and consideration. Over the years, I have asked each manufacturer I have experience with (Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar, Phase One) why they don't improve the LCD's and have never gotten an answer I felt made sense. So...this is my own conclusion.


Steve Hendrix


They can call it allocating resources and I guess that's a polite way to put it, but where I'm from we'd just say some of those medium format boys and girls  "fibbed" to us.  They fibbed to you too.

We've all heard it, excessive heat build up, battery use, expensive processing power, etc. etc. and I guess it wouldn't be frustrating if the Pentax cost $28,000 and a 40 mpx euro back costs $8,500 but it's the other way round.

Actually, I just think it's the medium format system.  They charge a lot, they have limited usability so they sell a limited amount of cameras, which means they have to charge even more.

It just goes round n' round until every non architectural pro-fessional photographer in the world shoots a Canon and the two very best building photographers I know sure use those Canon Tilt shifts . . . a lot.

Now, I'm not complaining because everytime I see one of those DL33, or 10mpx sensor plus e-mail ads I want to write a letter to the makers and say thanky, thanky for not making me spend $25,000.

In fact the strange thing is lately I've used my Contax and digital backs more than ever and except for the tethered goofiness I got going on with V4, and V5, they work as well as they ever did.

At one point I thought about selling them and the Contax' at the standard bargain basement rates we see today, but now I'm glad I didn't.  

Personally, I don't think your real competition is Canon (as you said that boat has sailed) or even Pentax, cause that's aimed at the Canon Nikon guys that take pictures of trees.    I think your real competition is the used medium format market, because though I don't have a pee 40 or pee 65 to pixel compare next to the 30 and 21 I own, I'd bet dollars to donuts that no client can see or care about the difference.  Not at the time of capture, obviously not after rounds of post production.

At this point all I can say is keep those T-mobile cell phone lcd's coming and to keep my investment safe, please make the next innovation a 90mpx sensor.  Heck go 120mpx make it 1mm larger and call it super full frame.

I can't wait to see a macbookpro tether to those files.

BC

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TechTalk

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #387 on: May 23, 2010, 12:30:43 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Don't you know that there's just part of PhaseOne that secretly wants to make that Pentax645D ICC profile less than optimum? "Hey Bob, yeah, you've put enough time into that profile -- let's move on to the next one. Just get close enough, and then mark it finished".
You can learn a lot about paranoids, just by following them around.
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bcooter

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #388 on: May 23, 2010, 12:53:25 pm »

Quote from: TechTalk
You can learn a lot about paranoids, just by following them around.


Not to go off topic, but . .

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, I managed a studio with lots of photographers and crew.

One of the stylists, that was quite talented was infectiously paranoid.

We'd have this weekly talk about this paranoid thing until she finally said, "hey . . . just because I appear paranoid, it doesn't mean that people aren't really out to get me".

I shook my head and kinda laughed, but started watching the studio process a little closer and it was true, other stylists were jacking with her props, slowing up her merch, screwing with her schedule, because she was good and she was competition.

So after that my talks were with the other stylists and the paranoia in the studio stopped.


BC
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 12:54:16 pm by bcooter »
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fredjeang

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #389 on: May 23, 2010, 03:46:25 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Personally, I don't think your real competition is Canon (as you said that boat has sailed) or even Pentax, cause that's aimed at the Canon Nikon guys that take pictures of trees.    I think your real competition is the used medium format market, because though I don't have a pee 40 or pee 65 to pixel compare next to the 30 and 21 I own, I'd bet dollars to donuts that no client can see or care about the difference.  Not at the time of capture, obviously not after rounds of post production.

BC
Actually you are absolutly right B.C.

I wrote before that IMO they will competing with the next generation Canons.(steroids 35mm that will probably be very fast)
But reading your post I think you got it right on the money.

It's funny, the old saying: when things are too close we do not see them, and that's what happened.
I'm in that case, and what did I choose? Canon? No: exactly what you just pointed. The second hand MF market.

Regards.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 07:13:46 pm by fredjeang »
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mhecker*

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #390 on: May 23, 2010, 04:40:06 pm »

Back on thread.

Some real field shots from the 645D  at

http://www.nippon-camera.com/s_pentax645d.php

Look at the detail in the buddhist shrine shot at f8 and f11.  
I added a little sharpening and the shots really pop.
The color also looks really natural.

I think I'm going to clean my $12K worth of Pantax glass stuck in the closet.    

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fredjeang

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #391 on: May 23, 2010, 04:56:24 pm »

Quote from: mhecker*
Back on thread.

Some real field shots from the 645D  at

http://www.nippon-camera.com/s_pentax645d.php

Look at the detail in the buddhist shrine shot at f8 and f11.  
I added a little sharpening and the shots really pop.
The color also looks really natural.

I think I'm going to clean my $12K worth of Pantax glass stuck in the closet.  
...And get prepared the favorite post prod software for serious retouching as well...
One of the worst blue issue I've seen.

Thanks a lot for sharing.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 05:12:08 pm by fredjeang »
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gwhitf

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #392 on: May 23, 2010, 05:33:28 pm »

Quote from: mhecker*
http://www.nippon-camera.com/s_pentax645d.php

Look at ASA 800; very organic and real. To me, more appealing than even ASA 100.

Set it and Forget it.

Very promising. And with a nice, tight 3-inch LCD as well.

June comes after May, right?
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fredjeang

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #393 on: May 23, 2010, 06:21:35 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Look at ASA 800; very organic and real. To me, more appealing than even ASA 100.

Set it and Forget it.

Very promising. And with a nice, tight 3-inch LCD as well.

June comes after May, right?
Agree, ASA 800 is nothing less than excelent, organic as you said.
I also prefer it to the ISO 200



mmm...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 06:41:59 pm by fredjeang »
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rogan

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #394 on: May 23, 2010, 07:59:05 pm »

Quote from: mhecker*
I think I'm going to clean my $12K worth of Pantax glass stuck in the closet.  

You have 51 pentax lenses???
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mhecker*

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #395 on: May 23, 2010, 10:55:04 pm »

When the Pentax 645N was in it's hay day,
believe it or not,  typical Pentax 645 zoom lenses used to retail new for $1300 - $1900.  

If the 645D is a success, they will be available new in the US again and they won't be cheap.    


You have 51 Pentax lenses???

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ziocan

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #396 on: May 24, 2010, 12:09:44 am »

Quote from: fredjeang
Actually you are absolutly right B.C.

I wrote before that IMO they will competing with the next generation Canons.(steroids 35mm that will probably be very fast)
But reading your post I think you got it right on the money.

It's funny, the old saying: when things are too close we do not see them, and that's what happened.
I'm in that case, and what did I choose? Canon? No: exactly what you just pointed. The second hand MF market.

Regards.
Last year I got a "used" back with few hundred captures (probably a demo unit), it was still new and I paid a fair price for it.
In the package the dealer left a leaflet saying all the nice words that good marketing makes say and ended with something on this line "now you will have your back that will serve your for many years".
That is true, and I will hardly buy another one in a long time.
I did a few thousands captures only with it, since i'm using DSLR 99% of the times and when I trave to Europe and I need a back, the clients rent me one. I do not bother carrying my cameras with me if I can.
In the fashion and AD related to fashion photographers field, the only ones who eventually cares about all the subtleties of shooting with a back, are eventually the photographers. otherwise nobody else care.
And 99% photographers in those fields can care less.

If I was to upgrade to a new 40/50 grands medium format package, I feel that the DB dealers are more on competition with my car and furniture dealers.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 12:28:14 am by ziocan »
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fredjeang

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #397 on: May 24, 2010, 05:26:35 am »

Quote from: ziocan
Last year I got a "used" back with few hundred captures (probably a demo unit), it was still new and I paid a fair price for it.
In the package the dealer left a leaflet saying all the nice words that good marketing makes say and ended with something on this line "now you will have your back that will serve your for many years".
That is true, and I will hardly buy another one in a long time.
I did a few thousands captures only with it, since i'm using DSLR 99% of the times and when I trave to Europe and I need a back, the clients rent me one. I do not bother carrying my cameras with me if I can.
In the fashion and AD related to fashion photographers field, the only ones who eventually cares about all the subtleties of shooting with a back, are eventually the photographers. otherwise nobody else care.
And 99% photographers in those fields can care less.

If I was to upgrade to a new 40/50 grands medium format package, I feel that the DB dealers are more on competition with my car and furniture dealers.

Yes Ziocan.

But then that would be also true regarding the Pentax. It is much cheaper and brings on the table impressive features, but as you pointed, at least in the area of fashion it is true that the only one who cares about high-end backs IQ is the photographer.
Canon or Nikon are hassle free, universals (specially Canon), cheaper, faster, lighter etc...Strictly talking, this Pentax is still a classic MF camera.

People who need perspective correction will need the backs, not this pentax, and even, as it has been said before, a tilt-shift Canon will do the job. I actually know a landscape and arquitecture photographer here that bought this year a 5D II and the tilt-shift and he is very happy with it to the point that it has become his first camera.

I think this Pentax will really tempting the landscapers and weddingers and the not-so-wealphy serious amateur.
To me, if I have to invest 7000euros cash on a gear, then I rather take a second-hand back because I can use it on different sort of cameras, or even a new Nikon D3s sold at that price + a decent lens. ( no Bernard, I'm not hill and you read well ).
As megapixels are not all, even buying 2 used first generation backs for that price or one back+ a 5D+laptop...the combinations are indeed extended.

Maybe we'll see very soon the traditional MF manufacturers (Phase, Hassy, Sinar etc...) in the hand of fewer people: very specific needs like museums, research, wealphy photographers that really want the best IQ for themselves, for their personal pleasure, artists that produce very large prints (and that sell high) etc...

If they don't react from now and start to be more creative, bringing new designs, new prices, new customer services etc...their range of potential buyer will reduced in a tiny exclusive niche. Instead of decreasing, prices will be higher. Many small MF brands will probably disapear.
So this is a serious situation for them.
They could for example provide the laptop included in the price to live view tether if they are not willing to improove that in the back itself.

Or provide for free to every buyer a pro website solution included in a bigger brand's web (ex: Phase users) with unlimited disk space, stable html platform, possibilities to generate jpegs in real time, client's control panel with customizations, professional data base with profile etc...

If your work is based on landscape big prints, then this Pentax is indeed a very very good choice. But then you really have to have this money and print big to make it sense. For very little you have a full frame 24MP sony that if not pushed in higher isos, delivers a fantastic IQ, and in prints the differences are not so drastic than on screen.

Also, I'm waiting to hear the current back users and how they will receive the Pentax file in real world. Remember that they are used to ASA 50 and huge room for post prod, and my first impression (it is just a first impression looking at the Pentax files) is that they are a little behind to what the Hassy and Phase and others are currently producing. Some samples are indeed impressive, but...sensor is not all, then all the savoir-faire behind and after. So far, I'm not sure about the room they really give in post-prod. Got the feeling that backs are doing slightly better than the Pentax in that aspect but it has to be confirmed in extensive use.

The today's reality is that this Pentax exists and at the same time, the second hand MF backs market is active and the world is in recession...3 factors that can change the game in the industry.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 09:28:14 am by fredjeang »
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robert zimmerman

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #398 on: May 25, 2010, 05:52:38 am »

if you really want one, they're taking orders here:
http://www.japantrendshop.com/DE-pentax-645d-p-833.html

you'll find it right between the "dog pedometer from takara tomy" and the "retro cube mini hifi speaker":

http://www.japantrendshop.com/gadgets-c-25...ucts_sort_order
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:56:35 am by kipling »
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artobest

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rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD
« Reply #399 on: May 25, 2010, 02:02:38 pm »

Haven't seen this mentioned so far (excuse me if I missed it): four new sample images.

http://bit.ly/cuF9EM
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