rumor: Pentax 645D Price: $6500 USD

[arashm]

I know this is a dead horse, Doug, but the problem with the lackluster Phase LCD is that it FORCES you to shoot tethered, if the job is important at all. You simply cannot judge any added lighting, fill, HMI, etc, on the LCD.

It simply radically changes the way you work, knowing that every single job you shoot, you've got to drag along a Tech or expensive trained Assistant, in order to run the computer.

I wonder how much Phase One realizes this factor. Over the lifespan of a Phase back, that added cost of Techs or Assistants adds a lot to the net sales price. In this day of increasing demands of Shots Per Day, it makes a Phase One back less and less appealing, absolutely knowing that for every single setup, you've got a Tech in tow, dragging around that Ball and Chain.

Not good. Now with the H4d40 and Pentax have (semi)nice LCDs, I just wonder how much longer Phase can thumb their noses at photographers needing good LCD units. It's not cute any more; it's not funny any more, this LCD issue -- for me, I just begin to consider a Phase back, and then think of the LCD, and think "No way".

How much longer can you stand behind a company like this?

Ditto
I know this is totally beating a dead horse yet again, but I have to totally agree
What's up with Phase and the absolutely horrid LCD, I can actually see what I'm doing on the 5D2 and feel comfortable enough to show it to AD's and CD's on location.
Even my little GF-1 has a pretty killer LCD.
I just don't get why this company doesn't get it!!!
and for the record I use C-1 and like phase, but this is just the one thing that I just can't understand...
anyways
am

[pschefz]

Note the dates of the quotes below.  





Also note that Phase and Leaf already produce several kits with list prices in the range of $10k with street prices a bit lower. They are not 40 megapixel solutions but although resolution is often the most quoted spec for a camera system it is just one of many features and specs.

the 40 mpix is the last thing why everybody is talking about this camera.....its a combination of everything everybody has asked for at a decend price.....no more and no less.....i dont see this being another mamiya back/body fiasko.....those samples at 800 were as good as anything i have seen.....yes jpeg....but nevertheless....this seems to be the whole package....

i agree about what was said here before.....the mf backs MADE thethered the standart because we had to....i like shooting tethered under certain conditions but on location it is always a pain....but with the mf backs there really was never any choice.....

still trying to figure out how to include the ipad in the whole shooting workflow.....but my latest gizmo bought for video shooting comes in really handy...a magnetic loupe on the screen....people love it....makes the screen look nice and big....works unless you HAVE to see the shot or are in studio...

anyway...as much as this camera is doing things right, i doubt i would even spend that maney on dmf anymore....the next canons are around the corner and there is nothing this camera does that i really miss.....in the end this seems to be a really big/heavy/somewhat slow dslr not a MF camera i used to use kand love....and since it will open the market from the bottom, we will probably never see a real DMF camera anymore.....

i am amazed how phase/leaf/hasselblad are totally not reacting to this.....other then saying:  we have deals under 10000.....none of which have the features or the pixelcount.....

[aaron]

Pentax have probably realised now that they should have got the 645d on the market 3 years ago,
but it sells as well as expected its going to give them the courage to develop the system further.

Yes the 645 is real late to the game, but i bet Pentax are drawing the 645D MArkII on the board already, and it may well have a big fat firewire socket on the side. (and maybe one on the bottom too...-to match the two tripod sockets.. )

If I was sitting at the table at phase/hassy HQ i would be buying nappies (diapers) for the execs.  

[tetsuo77]

That depends entirely on how many or how few are available; it only indicates that Pentax has probably been conservative with its initial production levels. I have seen a claim that production is at 500/month, starting a couple of months ago, so the sell-out could mean nothing more than about 1,000 pre-orders, filling a backlog of demand from Pentax 645 users who have been waiting on this for several years.

See above: about 1,000 customers is very far from being the whole Japanese market!

For a truly left-field figure, how about reports that m4/3 has 20% of the Japanese market share for interchangeable lens digital cameras, more than I have previously seen in global market share for "all DSLR brands except Canon and Nikon combined".

Dear Feppe and BJL.
Perhaps I didn´t make meself clear enough.
I know that the fact of being sold out has to do, mainly, with how many units there are [which is something obvious]. However, usually, companies do design the production cycle in order to achieve profits from the least amount of units sold they can, meaning that if demand has peaked so early, they can make the system very much profitable from the very begining. Which, I have to say, it is quite a big plus.

I know that 1000 customers are very far from being the whole japanese market. But you [and I] should know to better read the quote I made: the whole overall market of "rara avis" in japan is much bigger than that in Europe, most probably for the fetichist nature of those products. Else I can really not understand the limited runs Pentax and Nikon had made for several of their cameras, even the famous 43 ltd was released, in a limited fashion, with the L39 mount only in Japan.

When I meant how leftfield that market is was more taking into account not only this 645d, but also the Fuji Xpan [the one Hassy is licensing from Fujifilm], the Cosina Zeiss and Cosina Voightlander lenses, twin reflex cameras, limited run models and editions, and remember that the KX was there with more than 110 colour combinations avaliable on demand.
Cheers!

[fredjeang]

Pentax have probably realised now that they should have got the 645d on the market 3 years ago,
but it sells as well as expected its going to give them the courage to develop the system further.

Yes the 645 is real late to the game, but i bet Pentax are drawing the 645D MArkII on the board already, and it may well have a big fat firewire socket on the side. (and maybe one on the bottom too...-to match the two tripod sockets.. )

If I was sitting at the table at phase/hassy HQ i would be buying nappies (diapers) for the execs.  

Some seem to consider the Pentax a competitor for Phase and Hassy, but IMO it is more serious option for the next generation of CaNiKons DSLRs.

Strictly talking, if you just want 40MP and a decent live-view screen, this hugly fat and slow machine (and probably competent  ) is indeed the best offer. Price is right.

But then,
- what about customer service? Will it be the story we heard here from Sinar for example? I doubt there will be a Pentax guy to solve your problems.
- Phase, Hassy and Co are backs (flexibility), so I guess the target is slightly different.
- What about the lenses? Is it going to be like Leica S2, 3 lenses?

Quite frankly, I'm not sure will see a lot this WWII machine (it looks like a german U-boot IMO) in the hallways of advertising studios etc...
Rather it will shine in landscape kind of stuff.

If that Pentax encourage the MF brands to do better screens, better conections and lower prices, it could really be decorated just for that.

But the target IMO is different. When Canon will release a 30MP MK whatever number, and they will, this Pentax may not be seen any more as the Holly grail.

[aaron]

Some seem to consider the Pentax a competitor for Phase and Hassy, but IMO it is more serious option for the next generation of CaNiKons DSLRs.

Strictly talking, if you just want 40MP and a decent live-view screen, this hugly fat and slow machine (and probably competent  ) is indeed the best offer. Price is right.

But then,
- what about customer service? Will it be the story we heard here from Sinar for example? I doubt there will be a Pentax guy to solve your problems.
- Phase, Hassy and Co are backs (flexibility), so I guess the target is slightly different.
- What about the lenses? Is it going to be like Leica S2, 3 lenses?

Quite frankly, I'm not sure will see a lot this WWII machine (it looks like a german U-boot IMO) in the hallways of advertising studios etc...
Rather it will shine in landscape kind of stuff.

If that Pentax encourage the MF brands to do better screens, better conections and lower prices, it could really be decorated just for that.

But the target IMO is different. When Canon will release a 30MP MK whatever number, and they will, this Pentax may not be seen any more as the Holly grail.

Sorry, but that all sounds like its come out of the mouth of a PhaseOne sales man.

The target audience is anyone who can afford it, and that's still not everyone but its a lot closer than the other options.

And while i love my Nikons, i didnt hear that their next generation was going to have a 44x33mm chip.

[fredjeang]

Sorry, but that all sounds like its come out of the mouth of a PhaseOne sales man.

The target audience is anyone who can afford it, and that's still not everyone but its a lot closer than the other options.

And while i love my Nikons, i didnt hear that their next generation was going to have a 44x33mm chip.

 
Actually you gave me an idea. I might send my CV to Phase or Hassy, I like the way these guys are traveling all the time and taking pictures from the roof of expensive hotels in Hong Kong   sounds like James bond life style.

Well, no Phase, actually I own Pentax and Contax.
I Like this Pentax, but my point is that not everybody wants to get rid of their back flexibility. I won't.
I wish the best to that machinery, now it is available and it's great for everybody.

Now, will it be a replacement of the Canon's and the current MF systems in the studios? I'm not sure at all to be honest.

I think this camera will be extremely usefull for lansdcape and wedding.

Cheers.

[Chris L]

"but my latest gizmo bought for video shooting comes in really handy...a magnetic loupe on the screen"

Pschefz, off topic but what loupe are you using?

[gwhitf]

i use one of those Zacuto Finders on one of my 5DII bodies, and it's great for video, but no way would I hand that to a client. And I don't want them that close to me. I want them away from me. But the quality of the Zacuto thing is very high.

The tethering thing is just out of control. Everybody in the room with an opinion.

I'd prefer a body with a four inch LCD, shooting to two CF slots, both accepting RAW files, and with some kind of bluetooth sending a small JPG to an iphone. That way, one AD in the room looking at an iphone, and everybody else on the crew looking at the real scene, preventing problems instead of watching their lack of attention show up on the monitor. Sometimes it's infuriating. Gadgets out of control. I miss the old days, when the stylists looked at the hair and dress in real time, over my shoulder, instead of sitting back and watching TV, and saying, "Oh, that's a good one".

[fredjeang]

i use one of those Zacuto Finders on one of my 5DII bodies, and it's great for video, but no way would I hand that to a client. And I don't want them that close to me. I want them away from me. But the quality of the Zacuto thing is very high.

The tethering thing is just out of control. Everybody in the room with an opinion.

I'd prefer a body with a four inch LCD, shooting to two CF slots, both accepting RAW files, and with some kind of bluetooth sending a small JPG to an iphone. That way, one AD in the room looking at an iphone, and everybody else on the crew looking at the real scene, preventing problems instead of watching their lack of attention show up on the monitor. Sometimes it's infuriating. Gadgets out of control. I miss the old days, when the stylists looked at the hair and dress in real time, over my shoulder, instead of sitting back and watching TV, and saying, "Oh, that's a good one".

If I'm right, the Phocus allows you to do the jpeg's previews and send them to the phone.
Somebody from / or Hasselblad user could confirm that. This is indeed a great feature.

I agree 100% with the tethering and isolating or separating all the mess from the photographer and everybody at their tasks. I also agree that a proper LCD with good resolution would be fine...
Don't understand why MF makers are teasing with this.
Maybe this Pentax will force them to react and being more creatives.

But I'd like to introduce a point: yes the MF gear has made the tether a standard, not the photographers. Now, do you think that ADs and all the staff is going to like going backwards? I mean, if you get rid of these gadgets they are use to, no more dispertion on the screen...you know what happens when to take away a toy to a child...
I guess if you take the tether circus out because it is invasive and not practical, I'm not sure the real impact it will have. clients, AD, everybody is used to it.
Would not be better optimizing the tether task instead of get rid of it?

[feppe]

However, usually, companies do design the production cycle in order to achieve profits from the least amount of units sold they can, meaning that if demand has peaked so early, they can make the system very much profitable from the very begining. Which, I have to say, it is quite a big plus.

Pentax won't reveal profits from 645D sales, so that is pure conjecture, with no basis even on prevailing business practices. It is quite common for new entrants in high tech to sell products at cost or even at loss to gain market share. The current business jargon for it is disruptive technologies and pricing.

Pentax is entering a new segment with a somewhat disruptive technology at a highly disruptive price. Given that they have had considerable development costs spanning several years, and probably have much tighter margins than the competition, I'm sure it will take many many more units to be profitable.

I know that 1000 customers are very far from being the whole japanese market. But you [and I] should know to better read the quote I made: the whole overall market of "rara avis" in japan is much bigger than that in Europe, most probably for the fetichist nature of those products. Else I can really not understand the limited runs Pentax and Nikon had made for several of their cameras, even the famous 43 ltd was released, in a limited fashion, with the L39 mount only in Japan.

I don't know what you mean by "rara avis," but if you mean MFDBs, I would be flabbergasted if Japan had a "much larger" market in MFDBs than Europe. Even if we take the higher GDP of Japan and general camera-crazy culture into account: Japan has only quarter the population of European Union.

Limited-run Leicas covered in ostrich foreskin are not a comparable product and are not relevant to this discussion; that's a very different market segment than Pentax 645D.

[eronald]

Japan and Korea have marriage portrait markets which are very specific, and "owned" by Fuji.

Edmund

Pentax won't reveal profits from 645D sales, so that is pure conjecture, with no basis even on prevailing business practices. It is quite common for new entrants in high tech to sell products at cost or even at loss to gain market share. The current business jargon for it is disruptive technologies and pricing.

Pentax is entering a new segment with a somewhat disruptive technology at a highly disruptive price. Given that they have had considerable development costs spanning several years, and probably have much tighter margins than the competition, I'm sure it will take many many more units to be profitable.



I don't know what you mean by "rara avis," but if you mean MFDBs, I would be flabbergasted if Japan had a "much larger" market in MFDBs than Europe. Even if we take the higher GDP of Japan and general camera-crazy culture into account: Japan has only quarter the population of European Union.

Limited-run Leicas covered in ostrich foreskin are not a comparable product and are not relevant to this discussion; that's a very different market segment than Pentax 645D.

[BernardLanguillier]

Strictly talking, if you just want 40MP and a decent live-view screen, this hugly fat and slow machine (and probably competent  ) is indeed the best offer. Price is right.

I am afraid the 645D doesn't have live view.

On the other hand, having played with one, I wouldn't call it slow. (H)ugly and fat are relative.

I would call the price very expensive still, but sort of reasonnable considering the context?

But the target IMO is different. When Canon will release a 30MP MK whatever number, and they will, this Pentax may not be seen any more as the Holly grail.

I thought that larger sensors had magical properties?

Cheers,
Bernard

[pschefz]

"but my latest gizmo bought for video shooting comes in really handy...a magnetic loupe on the screen"

Pschefz, off topic but what loupe are you using?

i am using something called LCDVF....ordered from latvia? poland? works great....had the hoodman loupe, the straps and no magnification were a pain....the zacuto is 3x mag and has a strange mount.....the lcdvf has 2x and a small metal mount with magnets on the loupe....just snaps on and off.....works great for me.....i beleive the zacuto is better for people with glasses?

[pschefz]

i use one of those Zacuto Finders on one of my 5DII bodies, and it's great for video, but no way would I hand that to a client. And I don't want them that close to me. I want them away from me. But the quality of the Zacuto thing is very high.

The tethering thing is just out of control. Everybody in the room with an opinion.

I'd prefer a body with a four inch LCD, shooting to two CF slots, both accepting RAW files, and with some kind of bluetooth sending a small JPG to an iphone. That way, one AD in the room looking at an iphone, and everybody else on the crew looking at the real scene, preventing problems instead of watching their lack of attention show up on the monitor. Sometimes it's infuriating. Gadgets out of control. I miss the old days, when the stylists looked at the hair and dress in real time, over my shoulder, instead of sitting back and watching TV, and saying, "Oh, that's a good one".

i couldnt agree more....funny thing is that my leaf valeo would send previews to a little pdf via bluetooth....

yes there are situations were tethering is necessary and great (and great to have) but i use it as little as possible now....i dont really like to show the camera either but right now, it is the quickest and easiest way.....and people get the idea ( what polaroid used to be) and everybody can move on.....
what i dont get is why the 1000$ camera grip cant just send a simple jpeg to the iphone....

as for the dmf look, magic....it wont happen on a 44x33 chip and and not really on a 50x40 chip either....

somehow the new sonys nx5/3/... are much more exciting.....for totally different reasons of course.....but it seems they at least try to come up with solutions people actually want....

which is why this pentax creates such a stir.....at last it seems someone was listening to what people have been asking for and complaining about....

i also feel the remaining companies are so worked up looking at each other without really taking a step back and thinking/ redesigning for a second...

i mean is anyone really interested in another alternative to c1? i am all for options but who cares about phocus for dslr for the mac? couldnt those resources have been used better/ more productive....this such an obvious jab only designed to hurt phase....

either way, just shot an actress with the 5dIi today....no mf camera could have kept up with changing light, inside/outside, fast shooting.....everything looked great on the lcd and she and her management were happy.....she did things and i was able to keep with what she was doing because i was able to shoot fast.....and i use manual focus lenses.....so i am not a spray and pray guy.....i doubt the pentax would have given me anything i did not have today.....but i am pretty sure the 5diii will and still give me a great preview and amazing skintone/texture out of camera......and that is what i need most....

[ziocan]

Some seem to consider the Pentax a competitor for Phase and Hassy, but IMO it is more serious option for the next generation of CaNiKons DSLRs.

Strictly talking, if you just want 40MP and a decent live-view screen, this hugly fat and slow machine (and probably competent  ) is indeed the best offer. Price is right.
.

But the target IMO is different. When Canon will release a 30MP MK whatever number, and they will, this Pentax may not be seen any more as the Holly grail.

The current 20mp+ crop of DSLR are already very diffraction limited.
When you stop down from f8 to f11 the loss of detail is quite significant, not mentioning f16.
I believe that most of the studio/fashion/ad/portrait photographers, what ever they are using a Canon, Nikon or Sony of more than 20mp, are experiencing this fact.

Going up to 30mpx and plus on a 24-36mm sensor will be challenging and may not offer any tangible improvement on the final results.

A larger sensor of 40mp will always offer an advantage that DSLR will not be able to overcome.


The Pentax is butt ugly, but it seems that it has a very good interface in terms of buttons and menus, definitively better than mamiya/phase and maybe hasselblad as well.

Then as you pointed out, ther may be shortage of lenses and lack of customer care.
Though pentax products are well distributed around the world if compared to other MF offering and you cannot exactly fix any Hasselblad and phase around the corner in any city.
Fedex and UPS are the best partners of these companies.

[ziocan]

I Like this Pentax, but my point is that not everybody wants to get rid of their back flexibility. I won't.

I do not see the flexibility.
With 10 grands pentax offer a whole new camera with sensor, where elsewhere you need at least 17 grands for the whole thing or 6 grands for a body with nothing.....

[ziocan]

Ditto
I know this is totally beating a dead horse yet again, but I have to totally agree
What's up with Phase and the absolutely horrid LCD, I can actually see what I'm doing on the 5D2 and feel comfortable enough to show it to AD's and CD's on location.
Even my little GF-1 has a pretty killer LCD.
I just don't get why this company doesn't get it!!!
and for the record I use C-1 and like phase, but this is just the one thing that I just can't understand...
anyways
am

I understand  it very well instead...
They did not improve the LCD, because simply could get away with it since most of the competitors did not have anything better.

[BernardLanguillier]

I do not see the flexibility.
With 10 grands pentax offer a whole new camera with sensor, where elsewhere you need at least 17 grands for the whole thing or 6 grands for a body with nothing.....

Street price in Tokyo is actually closer to 8.000 US$ (754.000 Yen).

Cheers,
Bernard

[fredjeang]

Bernard, I have no doubts that large sensors have "magic properties"! But size is not all.
The impression that drives me to feel this Pentax more a competitor to "Canon's and Co" than to "Phase and Co" was not for the sensor's reason.

Well, ugly (sorry for the H, I always make that mistake over and over again), is relative as you point.
In fact to my eyes it looks like a german wwII machine, but the film version did as well.
It is like a Chiyonofuji Mitsugu Pentax DSLR. An inflated muscled version of their current gear.

About the interface implementation, being a DSLR Pentax user, it is exactly the same. Anyone who comes from current Pentax gear will feel completly at home. They wisedly save in devellopement costs by taking in fact the overall design of their current gear.

I must say that the Pentaxes design is well thought, not being perfect but who is?. f.e green button is great in their dslr but they could have done some "green" functions better. (for example changing modes does not keep in memory the last setting...wich virtually makes it useless). Details like that.

About the Live view, I wrote without thinking, or more exactly thinking with my wishes. I mean Better LCD than what's available right now and that is indeed a very very good news. But we are again in the tether stuff and all the circus involved, and that is why I think that the way this Pentax will deal in studio configuration will be relevant for this marketplace.

Studios and MF photographers have already invested in MF gear, and the Pentax will have to offer better performance to sell like hot-dogs.
For the Landscaper and the weddinger I have no doubt that this will be a fantastic camera, in the studio I am much more reserved.

The tethered has become a standart because of the manufacturers, but what will happen if you got backward? No more tether but just a big nice LCD...
the idea is great, but as I pointed, the clients are used to the tether stuff and what happen when you take-away the boy's toy? This concept sounds irrelevant, but I do think it could be a problem more than a solution. IMO, the "only" way is to improove the tether configuration and not so much get rid-off it.

But it is true than MF manufacturers have to work now seriously on that and stop teasing with the Lcd screen etc...

This Camera is a little between a rock and a hard place. Canon's gives already the best performance-universality-hassle-free, and 21MP is enough for most of the applications. Then, on the other hand, the Phase and Hassy and others are covering the high-end necessities, yes, at scandalous prices.

A back can be mounted on different cameras, view cameras etc...you are not stuck into a body, and on the contrary do not have to change a body when upgrade.

In fact, this Pentax is today a direct competitor of the Leica S2, and of course will beat it. At 7000 euros!...the S2 is also between a rock and a hard place.

Bernard, is the price still too high? yes, it is always too high. But they officialy announced through their importer that it will be available in August here at about 7000euros. It is high, yes, but compare to the competition not at all.

The HASSELBLAD H3D-II 31 is sold today in Madrid for exactly 13.914,20€ taxes included. This is twice the price of the Pentax. It is too much.
And of course the double price does not reflect in twice the performance, that is where the problem lays for them now.

But it is also fair to give them another universality, lenses and gear already available. This is the weaker point so far of this Pentax.

And yes, pentax distribution is much wider, but beware: it's not Canon neither Nikon. When I want some Pentax accessories here they are never available in shop.
Unthinkable with Canon...so yes, Pentax has a wider distribution infrastructure but...

Hassy, Phase and others will have to do the homeworks much better anyway.

Sinar for example is on the right track, they know they can't compeat with prices so they put their efforts on a really impressive service.
I think the customer service will play a major role for the MF brands within the next years.

Regards.