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Author Topic: Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host  (Read 45936 times)

Jack Flesher

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2009, 11:03:11 am »

Quote from: bjanes
One of the featured photos from the model shoot was from a P65+ and appears lifeless and dark.

Right BJ, but my point was that KR implied in his blog rant that ALL of the PODAS images were P65+ shots when only a few of them were. Thus my comment on KR's his lack of credibility and veracity.  


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Schewe

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« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2009, 12:11:31 pm »

Quote from: pom
My website, Shewe, for my personal work is www.timelessjewishart.com, the link is in my signature.

Cool, now I have a frame of reference...

Quote
I'm not someone spending ridiculous money on the most expensive camera equipment in the world without any justification whatsoever given the fact that they need a workshop and still can't get it even close to right.

Well, the most expensive is now the Leica S2, so you're wrong there...

I might also point out you seem to have a rush to judgement regarding the needs of the workshop attendees and what they did or didn't get out of the workshop...what exactly are you basing that on....the blog posts of snapshots?

I guess we haven't covered that enough yet huh...the vast majority were shot with a cheap-ass Canon, not the expensive-ass Phase camera/back. So, exactly what are you basing your prejudice on? Because it's clearly prejudice that is making your presume the rich guys can't shoot (point of fact, they were pretty darn good). So, may you should hold your judgement till a point in time you can actually judge, don't ya think?

P.S. There's a "C" in my name bud...
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Schewe

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2009, 12:18:25 pm »

Quote from: Ray
There's an implication here, Jeff, that you think people should only be in a position to criticise a work if they have personally produced their own work that is of greater acclaim than the work they are criticising.


No, but I do think people who do express an opinion should be willing to show their own work. Pretty easy to be sitting I don't know where in the world and lobbing insults when you hide behind an anonymous screen name. Pretty easy to strike a superior tone when your own work is invisible...

But that remark was directed at image66...
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grabshot

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« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2009, 01:14:54 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
P.S. There's a "C" in my name bud...

One of the truest things I've read here in a long time.
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2009, 02:49:14 pm »

Quote from: pom
My website, Shewe, for my personal work is www.timelessjewishart.com, the link is in my signature. I'm not hiding anything and I didn't need a P65+ to make the 30+ megapixel shots shown on that website, I didn't use anything more than an old and very battered 5D and usually a single lens. If people feel that my work is substandard, hey I'm just another hack with a 4 year old DSLR. I'm not someone spending ridiculous money on the most expensive camera equipment in the world without any justification whatsoever given the fact that they need a workshop and still can't get it even close to right. This was far from the Antartica trip which was more like a safari tour on ice. I used the word 'IF' in the sentence you quoted and it wasn't actually specific to this workshop as I made clear but a comment on workshops in general. All you had to do was either justify or refute it if you felt it applied to you. Instead you made a rather pathetic attack. Aging bully tactics are really extremely boring and say far more about you than they do about me.


you seem to be confusing the creative part of photography with the craft, and for some baffling reason you seem to feel that because a 5d is good enough for you it is good enough for everyone.  Format has never been about creative skill and digital doesn't change that at all.  This is no different than choosing between an 8x10 view camera or a 35mm camera several decades ago.  A skilled photographer can create great images with either ... all the chosen format does is limit what can be done with the image afterwards.  If the limits imposed by a format are acceptable to the photographer, then logically there is no compelling reason to use a different format.  There are many photographers who are not satisfied with that, and that's their choice and not really anyone else's business.

For some reason in the digital era we think this no longer applies - that everyone should fit in the same box and that everyone should only need a dozen or two megapixels and be happy. You seem to have some desire to criticize those you don't know at all, have never seen any of THEIR work (I don't think any of the participants work is on the blog - even the model shots I believe were taken by PhaseOne staff).

As I mentioned, those attending were looking for a way to discover what high end MFDB offered.  While I'm pretty sure everyone in the group was impressed with the potential quality when printing very large prints, and while several who had been considering a purchase did so after using the equipment, many made the decision that it wasn't for them.  I doubt if any of them would tell you there isn't a difference ... they just didn't feel in their application the difference was warranted.

I guess the bottom line is what difference should it make to you, or anyone else?  Why insult us?  Why do we as a group of attendees need to provide you with some type of proof as to our skill?  Why do you have some right to make any type of judgement about us?

I'm just baffled why anyone really cares ...

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Alan Goldhammer

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« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2009, 03:23:15 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I guess the bottom line is what difference should it make to you, or anyone else?  Why insult us?  Why do we as a group of attendees need to provide you with some type of proof as to our skill?  Why do you have some right to make any type of judgement about us?

I'm just baffled why anyone really cares ...
The only thing that matters is whether the workshop attendees were satisfied.  The rest of us should just be silent (including Ken R), as we were not there and cannot judge the value of the workshop.

I'm going back into radio silence mode, but would add one last thing - I echo Wayne, nobody should really care about this (other than the attendees).

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daws

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« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2009, 03:32:08 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
I'm just baffled why anyone really cares ...

IMHO it's another manifestation of internet fanboyism: the acting out of exaggerated feelings of techno-partisanship, empowered by the security of the internet's virtual anonymity. You see it in forums covering all areas of interest -- different tech jargon; identical partisan sniping.
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image66

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« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2009, 03:32:50 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
No, but I do think people who do express an opinion should be willing to show their own work. Pretty easy to be sitting I don't know where in the world and lobbing insults when you hide behind an anonymous screen name. Pretty easy to strike a superior tone when your own work is invisible...

But that remark was directed at image66...

I made two posts in this thread and the first one I did reference my website, the second one I forgot to add it as I had to wrap my computer up and head home. If anybody is interested, you can visit www.zone-10.com. Any reasonable search would have revealed that the majority of my posts are anything but anonymous. Image66 Photography happens to be my business name. I have nothing to hide.

I will freely admit that some stuff is sufficiently pedestrian to warrant enough guffaws to be heard around the world. Yet, maybe there is a gem in there once in a while too. I have never claimed to be a master photographer, that's for sure, and yes, the battle of originality is one I fight every time I pick up the camera. It is all too easy to plagiarize not only others, but yourself too! This was my point. Don't plagiarize other photographs--especially ones YOU'VE taken before.

I host and teach workshops myself. These fall into two categories: 1. The Instructional Workshop. 2. The Fishing Guide. If I'm putting on an instructional workshop the purposes are very much educational and the end goal for the participants isn't necessarily to walk away with a Portfolio Print, but a head full of new knowledge. This is evidently what the PODAS workshop was and if this is true, then I definitely have no problem with the results. If the workshop is more like a Guided Fishing Trip, then the results definitely are a problem.

A coupe of years ago I wrote a brief article called "Copying Others and Breaking Free" which defines the context of my comments in this thread. I've been working hard the past two years stretching my own horizons and doing types of photography I never dreamed of before--including using a cell-phone camera.

Link to "Copying Others and Breaking Free" article: http://www.image66media.com/page24.html

I don't really care about what cameras were used or the price of the average tripod in the group. The fact that the workshop alone was priced to filter out the tire-kickers is actually a good thing. But what gets me is the defensiveness in this thread by the workshop apologists who instead of admitting that some things were substandard (lighting, models, etc) they choose to attack through various means. It would be very easy to just say "this workshop was not about the photographs, it was about technology and technique." If this was stated up front, all would be forgiven. Ken Rockwell could maintain his moral high-ground and we'd be able to say "So what? It wasn't about producing photographs to begin with."

As previously stated, Ken Rockwell's original post was actually pretty specific and his criticisms are very valid. His premise to begin with was that this was a workshop about equipment and software, and producing photographs was a minor side benefit--not the main purpose.

Michael hosts some incredible trips/workshops. The Antarctic expeditions, for example, are highly regarded not only for the quality of the experience, but the quality of the photographs. Those are photography expeditions first, workshops second. The workshop portions are value-add services. This is evidently 180 degrees different than the PODAS workshop.  If it's workshops first, shooting second, that's not a problem. I occasionally sit through training classes myself on highly technical equipment which is off-line.

Ken Norton
www.zone-10.com
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caribsurf

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2009, 03:35:37 pm »

"Well, I'm no KR apologist, and I think he showed considerable lack of judgement and tact in his initial post, BUT the photos he pointed to were truly awful. I suspect what he was trying to say was that it's not the gear that makes the photograph, it's the photographer."

I would agree with this post. They were truly awful images and I am not referring to the Point and Shoot ones, which were terrible, but to the two I saw shot with the Megabuck equipment. I am afraid it is a classic case of the "Emperor's Clothes". More money than sense! It did not look as though the images I saw could have been taken by anyone with even a fundamental understanding of composition or photographic technique. I was a National Sales Manager for a Company and had I been selling a top buck product like this, there is no way that I would have allowed images like those out on the Internet. It has cast doubt on this product that will be hard to recover if they hope to sell to anyone else outside of their limited truly Professional user group. A big time PR disaster in my opinion and in my last Company you would have had a severe kicking or lost your job for something like this. Any competitors out their will be falling off their chairs laughing.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 03:41:01 pm by caribsurf »
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Schewe

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« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2009, 03:58:27 pm »

Quote from: image66
I made two posts in this thread and the first one I did reference my website, the second one I forgot to add it as I had to wrap my computer up and head home. If anybody is interested, you can visit www.zone-10.com. Any reasonable search would have revealed that the majority of my posts are anything but anonymous. Image66 Photography happens to be my business name. I have nothing to hide.


Wow, Grinnell, Iowa...I suppose you know Henry Whilhelm huh? I broke down there last year on a motorcycle trip to California and had to get the bike towed back to Iowa City to get a sensor replaced...

Pretty sure the few P65+ shots posted on the blog were shot with the Phase One tech people–who were van drivers not instructors and were there to help with camera problems and to supply accessories and lenses...yes, they did shoot with the cameras but as I recall they were pretty much shooting the Phase One cameras like big expensive point and shoot cameras...

So, here's an idea...why don't you all reserve judgement about the photographic validity of the workshop attendees' results until you see some? As far as I know, the ONLY workshop shot by an attendee that you've seen is from Wayne and you've all seen two from Michael and none from Mark nor Bill...

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JeffKohn

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« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2009, 04:44:42 pm »

Quote
So, here's an idea...why don't you all reserve judgement about the photographic validity of the workshop attendees' results until you see some?
I fore one was not disparaging any of the attendees. I just pointed out that it was kinda dumb on Phase One's part to post P65+ images that were of such a poor quality. Whatever the intent was behind showing those images, it was just bad marketing, you don't make your products look bad if you can avoid it.
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Jeff Kohn
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Rob C

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« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2009, 05:05:58 pm »

Quote from: Mort54
"...without being quite so snarky (to use a modern term)."



This has got to be ironic (or perhaps sarcasm was intended?). Either way, I did enjoy a momen't laughter, for which I thank you: snarky is a term I distinctly remember coming out of the mouths of fellow Scottish school children in the 50s!

Luvvit!

Rob C

barryfitzgerald

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« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2009, 05:45:21 pm »

I feel a group hug coming up..
 
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PierreVandevenne

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« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2009, 05:52:19 pm »

[quote name='Wayne Fox' date='Nov 20 2009, 08:49 PM' post='326517'
I'm just baffled why anyone really cares ...
[/quote]

Well, wasn't the blog intended for an audience?  The blog images were abysmal, no doubt about that, and no insult meant to anyone. Mark Dubovoy's shot is quite nice btw.
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bjanes

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« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2009, 05:56:00 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Wow, Grinnell, Iowa...I suppose you know Henry Whilhelm[sic] huh? I broke down there last year on a motorcycle trip to California and had to get the bike towed back to Iowa City to get a sensor replaced...
A bit of sarcasm here? Anyone from Grinnell must be an unsophisticated hic as seen through the eyes of a Chicago artist and they don't even stock BMW motorcycle parts. They probably ride Harleys. How could those country bumpkins understand sophisticated photographic equipment?  I don't see how those comments add to the discussion and the implication is inappropriate forum behavior.  

Quote from: Schewe
Pretty sure the few P65+ shots posted on the blog were shot with the Phase One tech people–who were van drivers not instructors and were there to help with camera problems and to supply accessories and lenses...yes, they did shoot with the cameras but as I recall they were pretty much shooting the Phase One cameras like big expensive point and shoot cameras...
The shots may have been taken by van drivers, but why did not the professional personnel at least supervise basic processing of the raw images and convert them to a proper color space for display on the web before posting them? I would say the work was sloppy and the resulting criticism is valid.


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Schewe

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« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2009, 06:34:07 pm »

Quote from: bjanes
A bit of sarcasm here? Anyone from Grinnell must be an unsophisticated hic as seen through the eyes of a Chicago artist and they don't even stock BMW motorcycle parts. They probably ride Harleys. How could those country bumpkins understand sophisticated photographic equipment?  I don't see how those comments add to the discussion and the implication is inappropriate forum behavior.  

Normally, I ignore the user "bjanes" (guess I should have still) but I happened to glance in to see what bit of nonsense he might be posting.

Low and behold, he's taken a casual mention of Grinnell, Iowa as some sort of slam to the "country bumpkins". What "bjanes" failed to see was my attempt at carrying on a civil discussion with "image66" and let him know that I went to his website...the fact that I mentioned that I broke down in Grinnell had nothing to do with anything other than I have a friend who lives in Grinnell, Henry Whilhelm...and wondered if Ken knew him...

So, "bjanes", kindly butt out of that particular conversation and take your rather psychotic allegations regarding my motives with ya...
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BlasR

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« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2009, 06:48:14 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Wow, Grinnell, Iowa...I suppose you know Henry Whilhelm huh? I broke down there last year on a motorcycle trip to California and had to get the bike towed back to Iowa City to get a sensor replaced...

Pretty sure the few P65+ shots posted on the blog were shot with the Phase One tech people–who were van drivers not instructors and were there to help with camera problems and to supply accessories and lenses...yes, they did shoot with the cameras but as I recall they were pretty much shooting the Phase One cameras like big expensive point and shoot cameras...

So, here's an idea...why don't you all reserve judgement about the photographic validity of the workshop attendees' results until you see some? As far as I know, the ONLY workshop shot by an attendee that you've seen is from Wayne and you've all seen two from Michael and none from Mark nor Bill...


Schewe,

by any chance the photo was taking when your motorcycle broke down?  EricM tell me that is you.

I didn't believe him, when I saw you in Boston you didn't look so bad, what happen?

If that is you, I will be ok, I do not need help with photoshop.
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Schewe

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« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2009, 07:16:28 pm »

Quote from: BlasR
Schewe,

by any chance the photo was taking when your motorcycle broke down?  EricM tell me that is you.

Naw, my beard is a lot whiter...

BTW, here's my bike broken down on the off ramp of I80 on the Grinnell exit...


The miracle in all this was I was able to find a guy who could trailer my bike back to Ginna's BMW in Iowa City and they fixed my bike in under 2 hours...the only downside was that instead of stopping in Grinnell to visit with Henry, I had to spend my time getting the bike fixed. Turns out Henry was actually off to Japan for meetings so I wouldn't have had more than a few minutes to visit.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 07:19:56 pm by Schewe »
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caribsurf

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« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2009, 07:21:15 pm »

"Pretty sure the few P65+ shots posted on the blog were shot with the Phase One tech people–who were van drivers not instructors and were there to help with camera problems and to supply accessories and lenses...yes, they did shoot with the cameras but as I recall they were pretty much shooting the Phase One cameras like big expensive point and shoot cameras..."

Sorry this makes the situation actually worse not better. If you were selling a Ferrari Challenge Stradale F1, would you select a one-legged man to demonstrate the car's capabilities? I think not. It smacks of poor management and a Company run by amateurs. This type of event would need close management and supervision. If that is not the case, you just don't allow anyone to post images like these for the whole world to see. Two friends actually contacted me and suggested that I log on to KR's site to see what was going on. Hundreds of thousands of people have already seen his Blog. The damage is done.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 07:52:55 pm by caribsurf »
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cmi

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« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2009, 07:53:16 pm »

Quote from: bjanes
The shots may have been taken by van drivers, but why did not the professional personnel at least supervise basic processing of the raw images and convert them to a proper color space for display on the web before posting them? I would say the work was sloppy and the resulting criticism is valid.


- If they would have done this everybody would complain that these still are only snapshots

- If they would have posted only their best shots people would complain about how staged and artificial this appears. After all, these are amateurs, they CANT shoot good photos!

- If they would have mixed snaps and pro shots people would complain how unfair these comparisations are and point out that it is staged to make compacts look bad. (If they would have produced stunning images out compact cameras everybody would wonder for what these mfdbs are for.)

- If Phase would not have done podas people would tell Phase to make better marketing

- if... well you get my point?

No matter what they did, somebody would complain about something. People LOVE to complain, its part of human nature.

I mean I dont want to rant, its all ok, just saying
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