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Author Topic: Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host  (Read 46182 times)

bjanes

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2009, 08:16:18 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Normally, I ignore the user "bjanes" (guess I should have still) but I happened to glance in to see what bit of nonsense he might be posting.

Low and behold, he's taken a casual mention of Grinnell, Iowa as some sort of slam to the "country bumpkins". What "bjanes" failed to see was my attempt at carrying on a civil discussion with "image66" and let him know that I went to his website...the fact that I mentioned that I broke down in Grinnell had nothing to do with anything other than I have a friend who lives in Grinnell, Henry Whilhelm...and wondered if Ken knew him...

So, "bjanes", kindly butt out of that particular conversation and take your rather psychotic allegations regarding my motives with ya...
Psychotic, eh, Schewe. That's a pretty serious diagnosis. While we are playing psychiatrist, I would venture that your problem is more akin to a personality disorder than psychosis. Perhaps my inference was a bit of a stretch, but it was based on your propensity to use ad hominem attack rather than reasoning. Your attempt to be civil was out of character and unexpected by me. If you were actually being sincere, I offer my apology.
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Wayne Fox

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2009, 08:42:24 pm »

Quote from: caribsurf
"Pretty sure the few P65+ shots posted on the blog were shot with the Phase One tech people–who were van drivers not instructors and were there to help with camera problems and to supply accessories and lenses...yes, they did shoot with the cameras but as I recall they were pretty much shooting the Phase One cameras like big expensive point and shoot cameras..."

Sorry this makes the situation actually worse not better. If you were selling a Ferrari Challenge Stradale F1, would you select a one-legged man to demonstrate the car's capabilities? I think not. It smacks of poor management and a Company run by amateurs. This type of event would need close management and supervision. If that is not the case, you just don't allow anyone to post images like these for the whole world to see. Two friends actually contacted me and suggested that I log on to KR's site to see what was going on. Hundreds of thousands of people have already seen his Blog. The damage is done.

It is doubtful any posting on KR's site will actually damage Phase or MF reputation.  His site is aimed directly at amateur photographers and its sole purpose is to make him money. His dig at PODAS was an attempt to maintain his long preached stance that the camera doesn't matter, and he himself pulled it once he found out his mistake . It is doubtful that any loyal readers of his site  are potential clients of phase.  If they want to buy into his philosophies it is more a statement about their level of photographic knowledge and skill ... they certainly are in no position to need or be able to use MFDB.  Unfortunately he does the photographic community a great disservice and misleads many.  Not all of his information is bad, but unknowledgeable and inexperienced photographers have no way to cull the bad from the good.

Considering how much he's backed off (very politely so), I wonder why the readers of this forum can't do the same?  The following is from his site ...

"Phase One

Good news: I researched last week's PODAS workshop, and learned a lot more about Phase One. That blog was put together each night as they were trying to put things to bed, so we'll hold off looking at their photos until they are presented formally.  The great news is that I sniffed around enough to learn that Phase One Capture 1 software not only works with DNG files from the LEICA M9, it already has calibrated profiles for the M9!"

Personally I'd be more than happy to have Ken shoot along side me some where and see what he can do with his gear compared to what I can do with mine.  If he really wanted to do his readers a great service, he should attend the workshop, use the equipment and go through the training ... and print some 40x60 prints.  Then perhaps he would understand there are two parts to capture, the artistic part and the technical part, and there is a difference in this equipment's ability to capture images.

(I find it somewhat amusing his constant claims of the camera doesn't matter and yet he's a huge fan of the very pricey Leica M9)

If I were selling a Ferrari I would make sure my customers could actually afford one and then provide them an opportunity to try it out.  The PODAS blog intent was to demonstrate to others that may want to test drive the equipment in the future an idea of what attending was about ... there is a great deal of interest in this, and Phase already has a list of those interested in the next one.  The blog's intent is not to demonstrate the capabilities of the equipment (which is completely impossible to do via the web anyway) but provide insight as to what the event was like.  In that regard it was quite successful.  The fact that others have tried to read into the blog something else has been for their own interests, but I'm doubtful Phase will see any negative impact.

I'm quite sure that eventually the blog will provide some very nice images taken by the actual attendees as they find time to prepare them.  As Jeff said, I'm not sure when any of us will get around to it.

The simple fact is the only way you can find out what this type of equipment delivers is to to see actual prints and to use it.  You can't demonstrate it with web jpegs, and not much point in trying.

personally the workshop was one of the most enjoyable events I have ever attended.  The instructors were knowledgeable and willing to share, many times 1 on 1. The other attendees were all great and I don't think any of us were there with the intent of capturing any world class images (although I saw several being worked on that were pretty amazing).  I was able to spend 2 hours riding from Vegas to DV with the CTO ... the driving force behind the technology who came from Denmark just so he could get feedback on how to make the system better.  The PhaseOne staff is full of terrific energetic people with a real passion for what they do.  Anyone considering MFDB would be well advised to use an experience such as this in the decision making process.  Considering what it would cost to rent the gear for a week, add in an isolated location that has interesting things to shoot and hours of instruction from outstanding talents on how to maximize your quality from the equipment, and the fact that if you choose to buy the equipment the discounts given you were far greater than the cost of attending ... pretty smart way to evaluate things.  Personally I think PhaseOne completely understands how to sell a Ferrari.

Are we to "good night gracie" yet?  I know I'm outta here ...
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caribsurf

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2009, 09:22:18 pm »

"The blog's intent is not to demonstrate the capabilities of the equipment (which is completely impossible to do via the web anyway)"

Why is it impossible? That makes no sense whatsoever, otherwise why do we all post images to the Web if they are all going to look crappy? Are you suggesting that to be able to appreciate a great image, that you have to see it printed? That clearly is just not true. A bad image is ,well, a bad image. There are hundreds of thousands of superb images posted on the Web. These images taken by "Van drivers" just do not happen to qualify as great images. Images on the web can never be as good as high quality prints, but the two images I saw were just so poor, that you could never in a million years print them large (in that state). They would be even worse as prints, not better. I can't see why you want to defend these postings. If they were good, none of us would be writing negative things about them. Many of us are just amazed that anyone could be so blind as to post them in the first place, that's what this thread is all about. We are all just incredulous!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 05:51:04 am by caribsurf »
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mrenters

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2009, 10:22:51 pm »

The pictures on the blog were meant to be documentary snapshots of what was happening at the workshop, not impressive works of art or demonstrations of the capabilities of the camera system.  Did you get a sense of what happened at the workshop?  If yes, then they served their purpose. The fact that some of them happened to have been taken with a P65+ doesn't mean anything beyond simply that it just happened to be the camera that the person doing the photographing was holding at the time.  Does it make any difference whether they were shot with a camera phone, P&S, DSLR or top of the line P65+?

As a PODAS attendee I can say that I learned a great deal.  The instructors were absolutely first rate and Phase One did an incredible job putting it all together and answering questions.  I'm happy I participated.
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RobertJ

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« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2009, 11:13:53 pm »

Why do we need good image examples anyway?

Is the idea of an SLR camera system some sort of brand new thing that needs to be proven, over and over and over and over...?  If you get the freakin' focus right, you have good light, and you know how to convert the files, then success is potentially yours.  That goes for all camera systems out there.  

What is with this need to be shown what a camera can do, when you already know what it can really achieve in ideal conditions?

Say they posted great images... so what?  

They posted bad images... who cares?  

Note to Phase One: Next time you have a workshop, bring some strobes/modifiers/grip and more lighting equipment or something, because that's clearly what you needed to achieve some decent pictures for your silly blog to satisfy some people who already know what the camera system is capable of, but still need to be reassured, just in case.

Want some samples for pixel-peeping?  Okay, go here: http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/ Download that RAW file of the old man, and stare at the detail in his bushy beard all day long.

Gee, you can also take pictures with a Leaf camera system as well.  Yes, it also makes use of a lens and a sensor, and captures light.  Who would of thought?: http://www.leaf-photography.com/rawimages.asp
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Rob C

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« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2009, 03:28:49 am »

"I'm quite sure that eventually the blog will provide some very nice images taken by the actual attendees as they find time to prepare them. As Jeff said, I'm not sure when any of us will get around to it."




That makes an interesting point: if time is so short, the likelihood of ever making prints doubtful, then where the basic reason for having the equipment?  Must have missed something in translation.

;-)

Rob C

barryfitzgerald

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2009, 04:54:55 am »

Quote from: T-1000
Why do we need good image examples anyway?

Note to Phase One: Next time you have a workshop, bring some strobes/modifiers/grip and more lighting equipment or something, because that's clearly what you needed to achieve some decent pictures for your silly blog to satisfy some people who already know what the camera system is capable of, but still need to be reassured, just in case.


Well honestly I can see why the blog might want decent samples..I mean kinda funny a top end camera maker has iffy shots don't you think?? Works of art not needed, but we also don't need disaster bin shots either..I'm not talking about folks on the course showing their work, just reasonable shots of what was going on, not a big ask really.

Don't even need a fancy lighting setup either, any old budget DSLR, kit lens and flashgun would have done just fine and dandy. (Ken and his D40! lol)
I can see the funny side of all this..like someone passing away at a surgeons conference, and the doctor says to the family

"If only the medics had got there sooner"...

The place is full of photographers! So nobody thought to get someone to take half decent shots? I would kinda be pretty embarrassed about that.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 04:56:35 am by barryfitzgerald »
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stamper

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« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2009, 04:57:55 am »

[quote name='Schewe' date='Nov 20 2009, 06:18 PM' post='326476']
No, but I do think people who do express an opinion should be willing to show their own work. Pretty easy to be sitting I don't know where in the world and lobbing insults when you hide behind an anonymous screen name. Pretty easy to strike a superior tone when your own work is invisible...

Unquote

Pots and pans.......?

viewfinder

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« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2009, 05:01:03 am »

WOW!!!...Five pages of smacking Kenny!   Now that's REAL insecurity.....
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Jeremy Payne

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2009, 08:32:53 am »

Quote from: stamper
Pots and pans.......?

Perhaps you meant "Pots and Kettles ... "?  In that case, I don't think Mr. Schewe is either anonymous or unqualified.  I've seen his work and know his credentials as most here probably have.

Otherwise, you're gonna have to explain.
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caribsurf

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« Reply #90 on: November 21, 2009, 08:38:45 am »

"Professional": Engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation (a professional boxer)
Oxford Compact English Dictionary

There have been references to the fact that only "amateurs" frequent Mr Rockwell's site. Might I remind some of the contributors to this site what the word professional means in the Queen's English. Based on the description in the Oxford English Dictionary, that probably means that 99% of those on this site (and most others) are "amateurs". Guess what, I am an ameteur and that does not bother me. I feel I can at least take an average image, something that is not apparent from the two images posted taken with the Megabuck cameras. This is the point.

I don't want to hide either, so you can have a go at my images if you so desire. I certainly don't claim that any of them compete with Joe Cornish's images, but I enjoy photography as a hobby. The conclusion I have drawn from this whole debate is that buying a Phase One system will not guarantee that I too can mimic Joe Cornish. He has talent and I am an ameteur. Money alone is no substitute for real artistic talent. If that were the case, the best photographers in the world would only be wealthy individuals. With one or two exceptions (Lord Snowdon for example), they are not wealthy people but people with a very special talent that cannot be bought. Here endeth the lesson!

http://photo.net/photos/caribsurf
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stamper

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« Reply #91 on: November 21, 2009, 11:26:46 am »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Perhaps you meant "Pots and Kettles ... "?  In that case, I don't think Mr. Schewe is either anonymous or unqualified.  I've seen his work and know his credentials as most here probably have.

Otherwise, you're gonna have to explain.

You are correct "Pots and Kettles? My comment referred to:

Quote

Pretty easy to be sitting I don't know where in the world and lobbing insults when you hide behind an anonymous screen name.

Unquote

As someone who has been "burned" in the past by his replies I took the opportunity - as others did - to reply to him. What goes around comes around?  

Jeremy Payne

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #92 on: November 21, 2009, 11:39:49 am »

Quote from: stamper
You are correct "Pots and Kettles? My comment referred to:

Quote

Pretty easy to be sitting I don't know where in the world and lobbing insults when you hide behind an anonymous screen name.

Unquote

As someone who has been "burned" in the past by his replies I took the opportunity - as others did - to reply to him. What goes around comes around?  
I see ... your rejoinder doesn't really make any sense, but I'm all for giving back as good as you get!
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Rob C

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« Reply #93 on: November 21, 2009, 11:43:18 am »

Quote from: stamper
You are correct "Pots and Kettles? My comment referred to:

Quote

Pretty easy to be sitting I don't know where in the world and lobbing insults when you hide behind an anonymous screen name.

Unquote

As someone who has been "burned" in the past by his replies I took the opportunity - as others did - to reply to him. What goes around comes around?  





Stamper

There is something you have got to learn: there are holy cows and then there are sacred cows; you must not go around pulling tails indiscriminately.

Rob C

image66

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Ken Rockwell Insults PODAS & our Host
« Reply #94 on: November 21, 2009, 12:12:44 pm »

Quote from: bjanes
A bit of sarcasm here? Anyone from Grinnell must be an unsophisticated hic as seen through the eyes of a Chicago artist and they don't even stock BMW motorcycle parts. They probably ride Harleys. How could those country bumpkins understand sophisticated photographic equipment?  I don't see how those comments add to the discussion and the implication is inappropriate forum behavior.  

Just so you know, I knew exactly the perspective of his comment. Absolutely no offence was taken. What is quite fascinating is that my wife and I chose to move to Grinnell and neither one of us are from here.  It is quite amazing that there actually is civilization outside of gridlock cities.    Granted, we have to spit out the hay seeds, take off our John Deere hats and bib overalls before a video conference call. Many learned people are quite aware of Grinnell because of the college located here.

I've met Henry in passing, but I've not actually sat down with him to get to know him yet. Our paths just haven't been crossing, but I'd like to interview him for my website, though. We live only a few blocks from each other.

The nearest BMW dealership is in Iowa City. However, when I had my Audi, I could get it serviced locally because one of the shops dealt with fancy imports owned by the college students. I learned about that after spending $5000 at the dealership in Des Moines. Those vehicles have the "ET Phone Home" circuit in them. Every three months the car feels lonely and wants the white-glove treatment from the factory trained mechanics.

Regardless, it is a comfy town to live in, with a top-rated school district. I can be at an airport flying somewhere across the country in about the same amount of time as anybody living in a major city. No harm, no foul and I can see the stars at night.

BTW, if anybody is passing through Iowa on I-80 and would like to take a break from driving, let me know and I can point you to some places to point a camera at and if I'm available we can grab a bite to eat or do coffee.

Oh, BTW, Harleys and BMWs outnumber Hondas around here.

Ken Norton
www.zone-10.com
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 12:13:49 pm by image66 »
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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #95 on: November 21, 2009, 02:42:00 pm »

Quote from: Rob C
That makes an interesting point: if time is so short, the likelihood of ever making prints doubtful, then where the basic reason for having the equipment?  Must have missed something in translation.

Rob C

I suppose it's because selling images of Death Valley really isn't what most us actually do ... I sell some landscape images, but not sure any of my clients are interested in Death Valley, if I indeed find any actually worthy of selling.

Quote from: viewfinder
WOW!!!...Five pages of smacking Kenny!   Now that's REAL insecurity.....

Actually there hasn't been that much Kenny smack if you read the thread.  It's five pages of smacking those of us that were involved in the workshop ... as though we owe everyone an explanation and a portfolio of our work to justify we  actually need the equipment and are worthy enough photographers to own it.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 02:52:57 pm by Wayne Fox »
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stamper

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« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2009, 04:30:13 am »

Quote from: Rob C
Stamper

There is something you have got to learn: there are holy cows and then there are sacred cows; you must not go around pulling tails indiscriminately.

Rob C

Is that the correct gender?  

jenbenn

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« Reply #97 on: November 22, 2009, 05:18:51 am »

I think that the problem with Mr Rockwell is that he does not hit the right tone and mixes things deserving critcism with those which do not deserve criticism.

I believe its perfectly OK to post snaps of a photography workshop which are just that, snaps for remembering the workshop. Nobody expects and nobody needs these snaps to be of high quality.

BUT if one posts shots taken with THE cameras (or digital backs) being introduced or advertised at such workshop one should be extra careful to post only such shohts which are of a minimum quality, particularly if the place where such shots are posted can be viewed by the greater public. Bottom line: The participants in the workshop might well be good photographers but the person who posted those horrible  Phase One shots is definately not an experienced PR guy.
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Rob C

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« Reply #98 on: November 22, 2009, 09:15:27 am »

Quote from: stamper
Is that the correct gender?





Stamper

Guess it all depends on the cow?

Rob C

stamper

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« Reply #99 on: November 22, 2009, 11:53:08 am »

QUOTE (Schewe @ Nov 20 2009, 06:11 PM) *
P.S. There's a "C" in my name bud...

Quote from: grabshot
One of the truest things I've read here in a long time.

Do you mean cuddly?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 11:55:03 am by stamper »
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