Cleaning pair of colors 7900

[snickgrr]

It seems when I instruct the 7900 to only clean one pair of colors, the machine initiates an overall clean.
A before and after inspection of ink levels indicates an overall ink loss of 2% across the board.
Anyone else run into this?

[T_om]

Welcome to Epson.

Tom

[Ryan Grayley]

It seems when I instruct the 7900 to only clean one pair of colors, the machine initiates an overall clean.
A before and after inspection of ink levels indicates an overall ink loss of 2% across the board.
Anyone else run into this?

Oh yes.

If you search this forum you will find similar ink wasting reports for the 7900 going back to November 2008.

[snickgrr]

Oh yes.

If you search this forum you will find similar reports for the 7900 going back to November 2008.

Oops.  No, I didn't do a search, I've been following the 7900 via this forum for some time and didn't recall seeing any issues of this.
So, apparently, I ain't the first.

[Paul Eby]

It seems when I instruct the 7900 to only clean one pair of colors, the machine initiates an overall clean.
A before and after inspection of ink levels indicates an overall ink loss of 2% across the board.
Anyone else run into this?

I am curious if anyone has talked with Epson directly about this and what their response was.

[snickgrr]

I have had a back and forth from Epson via the Emethod but that yielded precious little. Basically all I've done so far to confirm that cleaning all colors instead of only the pair is not the norm.  That is why I'm doing some Web research before upping it to calling someone and speaking to a live voice.

[Ryan Grayley]

I have had a back and forth from Epson via the Emethod but that yielded precious little. Basically all I've done so far to confirm that cleaning all colors instead of only the pair is not the norm.  That is why I'm doing some Web research before upping it to calling someone and speaking to a live voice.

Have you tried updating the firmware and disabling the AID? It might be worth eliminating this if nothing else.

Epson have impressed me with their creative new ways to waste ink on the 7900. After only a few days from new I switched on and waited in amazement for 40 or so minutes while my AID did a very impressive job in binge drinking my cartridges with the ruse that my nozzles were blocked (which of course they weren't). My AID is now disabled.

AID = Accelerated Ink Depletion

[Wayne Fox]

I am curious if anyone has talked with Epson directly about this and what their response was.

I have talked to the Epson repair person, who has verified with Espon that in some circumstances the printer will clean all colors when cleaning color pairs.  I noticed it because when ever I've cleaned a single channel, other channels with nozzle issues end up cleared.

It seems that despite the fact you disable auto nozzle detection and try to control this process manually, if you clean a single pair of colors, the printer will then do a nozzle check and if any colors are "clogged" including the color you just tried to clean the printer will then engage in a full auto nozzle clean process. (I use the term clogged loosely because I believe there is something going on beyond clogging with some of these printers)

This seems counter intuitive, for example if you have the PK channel and the green channel showing problems when printing a nozzle pattern (my problem 90% of the time), if you clean either of those channels, you will end up with a full nozzle clean.  it would actually take less ink to do a full nozzle clean to start with since it's going to clean all of them anyway - no need wasting the ink to clean one channel only to clean it again with the full head clean.  Preferable would be the ability to clean the green/orange channel, and then the PK/LK channel ... only 4 nozzles and ink for those instead of 10. Really the printer should do what it says (clean just the pair you select) and nothing else.  If you have disabled Auto Nozzle Detection, then you should have full control of when and what channels you decide to clean - it should never perform a nozzle check if you have "disabled" that feature.  The auto nozzle detect can be problematic and trigger cleans even though there are no clogs, currently many have disabled it (MR mentioned he had done this in his review).

So currently if you have problems with 2 colors that are in different channels it will take less ink and time to do a full head clean, instead of just one color pair.

 I've mentioned this directly with Epson support when I've called in, but I certainly have no clout.  It doesn't make sense and a firmware update could most likely fix it (assumption on my part).  i believe I've seen others mention this in threads on the forum.  Hopefully others have voiced their opinion on this and Epson is listening.  They have responded to a similar issue (that of doing a nozzle check at startup, the latest firmware removed that) so perhaps they will listen again and make this change.

[reburns]

Pardon if this is poorly posed, I'm short on time.  Please read between the lines and correct / re-direct as needed.

So isn't AID = Auto Ink Detection (minus the puns).  That would be charged droplet detection.  And isn't that something different than "Auto Nozzle Check" (ANC), even if AID supports ANC?  That would have AID doing the measurement while ANC is spraying ink.  So if we turn off ANC, is AID turned off or not?  Is AID leveraged when doing a manual head clean?  I.e. does a head clean spit ink drops from each nozzle and verify performance?  Is nozzle clean therefore an intellegent function or does it just command the unit to spray a predetermined volume of ink thru each nozzle?  Wayne mentions, "in some circumstances...will clean all colors", and if so that would figure in system feedback.  Curious.

I wonder if we can just as well create a less agressive cleaning "print".  Print an image with solid squares of each ink color.  Hope that it's mostly using one ink per patch and not blending much from other ink colors.  Put each color patch on a different Photoshop image layer and just print the colors you need.  Use a junk scrap of sheet paper.  That would be non-AID assisted "cleaning", hence trying to spray from all nozzles whatever volume it takes to print the color patches.  

Just some hairbrained thoughts and brainstorming to get folks thinking about taking control of this or formulate questions for Epson contacts.

Ralph

[Ryan Grayley]

I wonder if we can just as well create a less agressive cleaning "print".  Print an image with solid squares of each ink color.  Hope that it's mostly using one ink per patch and not blending much from other ink colors.  Put each color patch on a different Photoshop image layer and just print the colors you need.  Use a junk scrap of sheet paper.  That would be non-AID assisted "cleaning", hence trying to spray from all nozzles whatever volume it takes to print the color patches.

This seems reasonable as I have sometimes found that even performing repeated nozzle check prints can reduce one or more 'blocked' nozzles. I have also found that switching off after a few nozzle test prints and trying again the following  day can result in fewer 'blocked nozzles' (although this is not exactly convenient in a production environment!) Perhaps the challenge then is to determine exactly what RGB values to submit on order to selectively print any chosen pure colour channel. Maybe not so difficult with pure Cyan, Magenta and Yellow but what about other colours?

I like the idea - any one else?

[Wayne Fox]

Pardon if this is poorly posed, I'm short on time.  Please read between the lines and correct / re-direct as needed.

So isn't AID = Auto Ink Detection (minus the puns).  That would be charged droplet detection.  And isn't that something different than "Auto Nozzle Check" (ANC), even if AID supports ANC?  That would have AID doing the measurement while ANC is spraying ink.  So if we turn off ANC, is AID turned off or not?  Is AID leveraged when doing a manual head clean?  I.e. does a head clean spit ink drops from each nozzle and verify performance?  Is nozzle clean therefore an intellegent function or does it just command the unit to spray a predetermined volume of ink thru each nozzle?  Wayne mentions, "in some circumstances...will clean all colors", and if so that would figure in system feedback.  Curious.

I wonder if we can just as well create a less agressive cleaning "print".  Print an image with solid squares of each ink color.  Hope that it's mostly using one ink per patch and not blending much from other ink colors.  Put each color patch on a different Photoshop image layer and just print the colors you need.  Use a junk scrap of sheet paper.  That would be non-AID assisted "cleaning", hence trying to spray from all nozzles whatever volume it takes to print the color patches.  

Just some hairbrained thoughts and brainstorming to get folks thinking about taking control of this or formulate questions for Epson contacts.

Ralph

In reality the AID and ANC are used interchangeably and refer to the same thing.  AID comes from the name of the main board involved in the process and you cannot "disable" AID, it is just the technology used by Auto Nozzle Check, which is the name of the feature.  The problem is even if you disable Auto Nozzle Check, the printer at times still performs the procedure which can result in cleaning of nozzles that do not need to be cleaned and consume more ink than necessary.  As I mentioned, counter-intuitive, since once ANC is disabled you have told the printer you want to control that process yourself, so the printer should never perform a nozzle check.

As far as your second idea, if the clogs are the result of something such as air getting in the nozzle (which from what I"m seeing on mine may be a possibility) that might work.  I don't think just printing will remove an actual clog.  This is complete speculation on my part, since I have no clue as to the engineering and function in the printer when it actually is cleaning nozzles.  It could be suction, extra pressure, a combination of the two or something else entirely.  I have tried clearing nozzles by printing a large print with some saturation colors once without any success.

[Farmer]

FWIW, this issue has been raised and is being pursued, as far as I know.

[deanb2010]

I have turned off all the autoclean stuff I can. I have talked with Epson Support and raised a bit of a stink about the pair cleaning issue.  By their own admission, their diagnostic software has the ability to clean only a single pair at a time, so obviously the printer has the capability. One thing that I have found out, is that if you have a cartridge that is "really low" on ink, the printer will stop testing and cleaning the other pairs when if finds that cartridge. So if the pair to be cleaned is before that cartridge, then you can at least save a bit.

Another item of note; I'd be interested if it happens to others.  I have not had many clogs lately and so over time the % available in the dump tank has actually been going up... From 42% available, to 43% available, on up to 45% available.  I am quite curious as to what is going on.  Is the software really smart enough to account for evaporation?  I hesitate to bring this up, as some Epson marketing guy will see this and have the software "fixed."

I intend to keep making an issue over the pair cleaning process, because as good as this printer is, it doesn't need some lame marketing inspired process that cleans every pair when only 1 pair needs cleaning. In my opinon a printer should be able to clean a head at a time or even better, a nozzle at a time.   Maybe on the 7999 model.  We can only hope. I actually quit using my 7600 because it wasted so much ink. For two years I quit buying ink, paper & dump tanks.  Epson, if you are listening, the less ink a printer wastes, the more it will be used, and thus the more ink and paper you will sell.

Also, on a positive note, as I have broken in the printer, the clogs have become less frequent.  I am suspecting air bubbles in the line because entire chunks of any given color from the nozzle check pattern were missing. Also, I have gotten decent milage out of the OEM cartridges... I've gotten quite a few prints out of them as compared with other stories going around. Also, the 1% remaining level appears to be about 10% remaining.  I wish Epson would reflect reality a little more accurately in this area.

Just my observations...

[Wayne Fox]

I am suspecting air bubbles in the line because entire chunks of any given color from the nozzle check pattern were missing.

I've been curious about this as well, because most of the time when I get a clog, it isn't a few nozzles, it's between 50 and 70%, all together, and almost always in the middle.

I'm not sure if it is air bubbles or somehow air is getting back into the line.  I do know this time they replaced my full cap assembly.

Fingers crossed.

[HowardG]

I've been curious about this as well, because most of the time when I get a clog, it isn't a few nozzles, it's between 50 and 70%, all together, and almost always in the middle.

I'm not sure if it is air bubbles or somehow air is getting back into the line.  I do know this time they replaced my full cap assembly.

Fingers crossed.

I was getting constant and persistent clogs in small areas on the green nozzle check.  I would clean and clean and in between cleanings the area that was clogged would move within the green pattern.  I even did 3 power cleans and the same persisted.  The tech replaced my capping station to no avail.  Despite the fact that he thought it was likely air bubbles because the area of 'clog' seemed to move around within the green and not stay focal he ultimately changed the printhead.  Doesn't quite make sense but the problem was 100% fixed.  Now I just get the usual number of clogs that I always had, like on my 7600, and they clean up right away with a single clean of the affected color pair.  The tech also advised me to just turn off the automatic nozzle checking and just print a test pattern when I start and clean, if needed, the effected color pairs.  This strategy has been very effective since I got the printhead changed....all seems to be working normally.

Howard

[Anthony Howell]

I debated about posting this because, there is a world of hurt if you don't get pair cleaning right.

When the tech came to my place to work on the 9900, he showed me how to clean individual pairs in the start up menu. Hold the OK and the adjacent east (Menu) & south (Paper Release) buttons down when starting the printer. In this start-up menu you will find cleaning by pairs, 4 levels of power cleaning and purge. Purge will purge "all" ink from the printer.

After doing a pair cleaning you will have to restart the printer normally to print. Unfortunately, the tech did not leave the .pdf service manual for the printer.

Please.... Be Careful !!!
I cleaned by pairs once and decided the risk is not justified by the small amount of ink saved. I am posting this tidbit because one never knows, good might come from those willing to experiment more than myself. Conversely, Woe to all that accidentally start a purge (purge is not what it is called in the menu?), or some other unknown menu item.

God, forgive me for what I think I know and forgive me for what I don't know.
Anybody have a copy of the 9900-7900 technical service manual?
Anthony

Ps - before complaining to much about wasted ink. All one has to do is think back 10 years and what it took to print in a traditional darkroom and the price of chemicals. Much less, how much environmental damage is done by throwing the the chemicals down the drain, etc, etc, etc. I have no complaints with a miniscule annoyance. Digital life with all it's flaws is great.

[HowardG]

I debated about posting this because, there is a world of hurt if you don't get pair cleaning right.

When the tech came to my place to work on the 9900, he showed me how to clean individual pairs in the start up menu. Hold the OK and the adjacent east (Menu) & south (Paper Release) buttons down when starting the printer. In this start-up menu you will find cleaning by pairs, 4 levels of power cleaning and purge. Purge will purge "all" ink from the printer.

After doing a pair cleaning you will have to restart the printer normally to print. Unfortunately, the tech did not leave the .pdf service manual for the printer.

Please.... Be Careful !!!
I cleaned by pairs once and decided the risk is not justified by the small amount of ink saved. I am posting this tidbit because one never knows, good might come from those willing to experiment more than myself. Conversely, Woe to all that accidentally start a purge (purge is not what it is called in the menu?), or some other unknown menu item.

God, forgive me for what I think I know and forgive me for what I don't know.
Anybody have a copy of the 9900-7900 technical service manual?
Anthony

Ps - before complaining to much about wasted ink. All one has to do is think back 10 years and what it took to print in a traditional darkroom and the price of chemicals. Much less, how much environmental damage is done by throwing the the chemicals down the drain, etc, etc, etc. I have no complaints with a miniscule annoyance. Digital life with all it's flaws is great.

Anthony...on the 7900 with the latest firmware pair cleaning is a user option obtained in the routine menu with no 'secret' button pushes.  Is the 7900 different or are you using different firmware?  Alternatively, perhaps we are talking about something different when we talk of pair cleaning.

Howard

[deanb2010]

Anthony...on the 7900 with the latest firmware pair cleaning is a user option obtained in the routine menu with no 'secret' button pushes.  Is the 7900 different or are you using different firmware?  Alternatively, perhaps we are talking about something different when we talk of pair cleaning.

Howard

The option exists on the menu...but once pressed, the printer tests all the heads and cleans every head it determines to have a clog, NOT just the pair you select.  Not what you might expect.  Oversite or marketing... Not sure which, but I have a bet.

[HowardG]

The option exists on the menu...but once pressed, the printer tests all the heads and cleans every head it determines to have a clog, NOT just the pair you select.  Not what you might expect.  Oversite or marketing... Not sure which, but I have a bet.

I didn't realize that...the problem is that myself and multiple other owners seem to think that it isn't very accurate at determining the presence of head clogs.

Howard

http://www.howardgrill.com
http://www.howardgrill.blogspot.com

[snickgrr]

The option exists on the menu...but once pressed, the printer tests all the heads and cleans every head it determines to have a clog, NOT just the pair you select.  Not what you might expect.  Oversite or marketing... Not sure which, but I have a bet.

This is a direct quote from my query with Epson support.

"Thank you for taking the time to contact Epson. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry. When going into Maintenance and select cleaning for each color it will clean only the colors that you select"