Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: snickgrr on May 21, 2009, 12:24:03 pm
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It seems when I instruct the 7900 to only clean one pair of colors, the machine initiates an overall clean.
A before and after inspection of ink levels indicates an overall ink loss of 2% across the board.
Anyone else run into this?
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Welcome to Epson.
Tom
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It seems when I instruct the 7900 to only clean one pair of colors, the machine initiates an overall clean.
A before and after inspection of ink levels indicates an overall ink loss of 2% across the board.
Anyone else run into this?
Oh yes.
If you search this forum you will find similar ink wasting reports for the 7900 going back to November 2008.
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Oh yes.
If you search this forum you will find similar reports for the 7900 going back to November 2008.
Oops. No, I didn't do a search, I've been following the 7900 via this forum for some time and didn't recall seeing any issues of this.
So, apparently, I ain't the first.
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It seems when I instruct the 7900 to only clean one pair of colors, the machine initiates an overall clean.
A before and after inspection of ink levels indicates an overall ink loss of 2% across the board.
Anyone else run into this?
I am curious if anyone has talked with Epson directly about this and what their response was.
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I have had a back and forth from Epson via the Emethod but that yielded precious little. Basically all I've done so far to confirm that cleaning all colors instead of only the pair is not the norm. That is why I'm doing some Web research before upping it to calling someone and speaking to a live voice.
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I have had a back and forth from Epson via the Emethod but that yielded precious little. Basically all I've done so far to confirm that cleaning all colors instead of only the pair is not the norm. That is why I'm doing some Web research before upping it to calling someone and speaking to a live voice.
Have you tried updating the firmware and disabling the AID? It might be worth eliminating this if nothing else.
Epson have impressed me with their creative new ways to waste ink on the 7900. After only a few days from new I switched on and waited in amazement for 40 or so minutes while my AID did a very impressive job in binge drinking my cartridges with the ruse that my nozzles were blocked (which of course they weren't). My AID is now disabled.
AID = Accelerated Ink Depletion
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I am curious if anyone has talked with Epson directly about this and what their response was.
I have talked to the Epson repair person, who has verified with Espon that in some circumstances the printer will clean all colors when cleaning color pairs. I noticed it because when ever I've cleaned a single channel, other channels with nozzle issues end up cleared.
It seems that despite the fact you disable auto nozzle detection and try to control this process manually, if you clean a single pair of colors, the printer will then do a nozzle check and if any colors are "clogged" including the color you just tried to clean the printer will then engage in a full auto nozzle clean process. (I use the term clogged loosely because I believe there is something going on beyond clogging with some of these printers)
This seems counter intuitive, for example if you have the PK channel and the green channel showing problems when printing a nozzle pattern (my problem 90% of the time), if you clean either of those channels, you will end up with a full nozzle clean. it would actually take less ink to do a full nozzle clean to start with since it's going to clean all of them anyway - no need wasting the ink to clean one channel only to clean it again with the full head clean. Preferable would be the ability to clean the green/orange channel, and then the PK/LK channel ... only 4 nozzles and ink for those instead of 10. Really the printer should do what it says (clean just the pair you select) and nothing else. If you have disabled Auto Nozzle Detection, then you should have full control of when and what channels you decide to clean - it should never perform a nozzle check if you have "disabled" that feature. The auto nozzle detect can be problematic and trigger cleans even though there are no clogs, currently many have disabled it (MR mentioned he had done this in his review).
So currently if you have problems with 2 colors that are in different channels it will take less ink and time to do a full head clean, instead of just one color pair.
I've mentioned this directly with Epson support when I've called in, but I certainly have no clout. It doesn't make sense and a firmware update could most likely fix it (assumption on my part). i believe I've seen others mention this in threads on the forum. Hopefully others have voiced their opinion on this and Epson is listening. They have responded to a similar issue (that of doing a nozzle check at startup, the latest firmware removed that) so perhaps they will listen again and make this change.
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Pardon if this is poorly posed, I'm short on time. Please read between the lines and correct / re-direct as needed.
So isn't AID = Auto Ink Detection (minus the puns). That would be charged droplet detection. And isn't that something different than "Auto Nozzle Check" (ANC), even if AID supports ANC? That would have AID doing the measurement while ANC is spraying ink. So if we turn off ANC, is AID turned off or not? Is AID leveraged when doing a manual head clean? I.e. does a head clean spit ink drops from each nozzle and verify performance? Is nozzle clean therefore an intellegent function or does it just command the unit to spray a predetermined volume of ink thru each nozzle? Wayne mentions, "in some circumstances...will clean all colors", and if so that would figure in system feedback. Curious.
I wonder if we can just as well create a less agressive cleaning "print". Print an image with solid squares of each ink color. Hope that it's mostly using one ink per patch and not blending much from other ink colors. Put each color patch on a different Photoshop image layer and just print the colors you need. Use a junk scrap of sheet paper. That would be non-AID assisted "cleaning", hence trying to spray from all nozzles whatever volume it takes to print the color patches.
Just some hairbrained thoughts and brainstorming to get folks thinking about taking control of this or formulate questions for Epson contacts.
Ralph
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I wonder if we can just as well create a less agressive cleaning "print". Print an image with solid squares of each ink color. Hope that it's mostly using one ink per patch and not blending much from other ink colors. Put each color patch on a different Photoshop image layer and just print the colors you need. Use a junk scrap of sheet paper. That would be non-AID assisted "cleaning", hence trying to spray from all nozzles whatever volume it takes to print the color patches.
This seems reasonable as I have sometimes found that even performing repeated nozzle check prints can reduce one or more 'blocked' nozzles. I have also found that switching off after a few nozzle test prints and trying again the following day can result in fewer 'blocked nozzles' (although this is not exactly convenient in a production environment!) Perhaps the challenge then is to determine exactly what RGB values to submit on order to selectively print any chosen pure colour channel. Maybe not so difficult with pure Cyan, Magenta and Yellow but what about other colours?
I like the idea - any one else?
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Pardon if this is poorly posed, I'm short on time. Please read between the lines and correct / re-direct as needed.
So isn't AID = Auto Ink Detection (minus the puns). That would be charged droplet detection. And isn't that something different than "Auto Nozzle Check" (ANC), even if AID supports ANC? That would have AID doing the measurement while ANC is spraying ink. So if we turn off ANC, is AID turned off or not? Is AID leveraged when doing a manual head clean? I.e. does a head clean spit ink drops from each nozzle and verify performance? Is nozzle clean therefore an intellegent function or does it just command the unit to spray a predetermined volume of ink thru each nozzle? Wayne mentions, "in some circumstances...will clean all colors", and if so that would figure in system feedback. Curious.
I wonder if we can just as well create a less agressive cleaning "print". Print an image with solid squares of each ink color. Hope that it's mostly using one ink per patch and not blending much from other ink colors. Put each color patch on a different Photoshop image layer and just print the colors you need. Use a junk scrap of sheet paper. That would be non-AID assisted "cleaning", hence trying to spray from all nozzles whatever volume it takes to print the color patches.
Just some hairbrained thoughts and brainstorming to get folks thinking about taking control of this or formulate questions for Epson contacts.
Ralph
In reality the AID and ANC are used interchangeably and refer to the same thing. AID comes from the name of the main board involved in the process and you cannot "disable" AID, it is just the technology used by Auto Nozzle Check, which is the name of the feature. The problem is even if you disable Auto Nozzle Check, the printer at times still performs the procedure which can result in cleaning of nozzles that do not need to be cleaned and consume more ink than necessary. As I mentioned, counter-intuitive, since once ANC is disabled you have told the printer you want to control that process yourself, so the printer should never perform a nozzle check.
As far as your second idea, if the clogs are the result of something such as air getting in the nozzle (which from what I"m seeing on mine may be a possibility) that might work. I don't think just printing will remove an actual clog. This is complete speculation on my part, since I have no clue as to the engineering and function in the printer when it actually is cleaning nozzles. It could be suction, extra pressure, a combination of the two or something else entirely. I have tried clearing nozzles by printing a large print with some saturation colors once without any success.
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FWIW, this issue has been raised and is being pursued, as far as I know.
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I have turned off all the autoclean stuff I can. I have talked with Epson Support and raised a bit of a stink about the pair cleaning issue. By their own admission, their diagnostic software has the ability to clean only a single pair at a time, so obviously the printer has the capability. One thing that I have found out, is that if you have a cartridge that is "really low" on ink, the printer will stop testing and cleaning the other pairs when if finds that cartridge. So if the pair to be cleaned is before that cartridge, then you can at least save a bit.
Another item of note; I'd be interested if it happens to others. I have not had many clogs lately and so over time the % available in the dump tank has actually been going up... From 42% available, to 43% available, on up to 45% available. I am quite curious as to what is going on. Is the software really smart enough to account for evaporation? I hesitate to bring this up, as some Epson marketing guy will see this and have the software "fixed."
I intend to keep making an issue over the pair cleaning process, because as good as this printer is, it doesn't need some lame marketing inspired process that cleans every pair when only 1 pair needs cleaning. In my opinon a printer should be able to clean a head at a time or even better, a nozzle at a time. Maybe on the 7999 model. We can only hope. I actually quit using my 7600 because it wasted so much ink. For two years I quit buying ink, paper & dump tanks. Epson, if you are listening, the less ink a printer wastes, the more it will be used, and thus the more ink and paper you will sell.
Also, on a positive note, as I have broken in the printer, the clogs have become less frequent. I am suspecting air bubbles in the line because entire chunks of any given color from the nozzle check pattern were missing. Also, I have gotten decent milage out of the OEM cartridges... I've gotten quite a few prints out of them as compared with other stories going around. Also, the 1% remaining level appears to be about 10% remaining. I wish Epson would reflect reality a little more accurately in this area.
Just my observations...
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I am suspecting air bubbles in the line because entire chunks of any given color from the nozzle check pattern were missing.
I've been curious about this as well, because most of the time when I get a clog, it isn't a few nozzles, it's between 50 and 70%, all together, and almost always in the middle.
I'm not sure if it is air bubbles or somehow air is getting back into the line. I do know this time they replaced my full cap assembly.
Fingers crossed.
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I've been curious about this as well, because most of the time when I get a clog, it isn't a few nozzles, it's between 50 and 70%, all together, and almost always in the middle.
I'm not sure if it is air bubbles or somehow air is getting back into the line. I do know this time they replaced my full cap assembly.
Fingers crossed.
I was getting constant and persistent clogs in small areas on the green nozzle check. I would clean and clean and in between cleanings the area that was clogged would move within the green pattern. I even did 3 power cleans and the same persisted. The tech replaced my capping station to no avail. Despite the fact that he thought it was likely air bubbles because the area of 'clog' seemed to move around within the green and not stay focal he ultimately changed the printhead. Doesn't quite make sense but the problem was 100% fixed. Now I just get the usual number of clogs that I always had, like on my 7600, and they clean up right away with a single clean of the affected color pair. The tech also advised me to just turn off the automatic nozzle checking and just print a test pattern when I start and clean, if needed, the effected color pairs. This strategy has been very effective since I got the printhead changed....all seems to be working normally.
Howard
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I debated about posting this because, there is a world of hurt if you don't get pair cleaning right.
When the tech came to my place to work on the 9900, he showed me how to clean individual pairs in the start up menu. Hold the OK and the adjacent east (Menu) & south (Paper Release) buttons down when starting the printer. In this start-up menu you will find cleaning by pairs, 4 levels of power cleaning and purge. Purge will purge "all" ink from the printer.
After doing a pair cleaning you will have to restart the printer normally to print. Unfortunately, the tech did not leave the .pdf service manual for the printer.
Please.... Be Careful !!!
I cleaned by pairs once and decided the risk is not justified by the small amount of ink saved. I am posting this tidbit because one never knows, good might come from those willing to experiment more than myself. Conversely, Woe to all that accidentally start a purge (purge is not what it is called in the menu?), or some other unknown menu item.
God, forgive me for what I think I know and forgive me for what I don't know.
Anybody have a copy of the 9900-7900 technical service manual?
Anthony
Ps - before complaining to much about wasted ink. All one has to do is think back 10 years and what it took to print in a traditional darkroom and the price of chemicals. Much less, how much environmental damage is done by throwing the the chemicals down the drain, etc, etc, etc. I have no complaints with a miniscule annoyance. Digital life with all it's flaws is great.
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I debated about posting this because, there is a world of hurt if you don't get pair cleaning right.
When the tech came to my place to work on the 9900, he showed me how to clean individual pairs in the start up menu. Hold the OK and the adjacent east (Menu) & south (Paper Release) buttons down when starting the printer. In this start-up menu you will find cleaning by pairs, 4 levels of power cleaning and purge. Purge will purge "all" ink from the printer.
After doing a pair cleaning you will have to restart the printer normally to print. Unfortunately, the tech did not leave the .pdf service manual for the printer.
Please.... Be Careful !!!
I cleaned by pairs once and decided the risk is not justified by the small amount of ink saved. I am posting this tidbit because one never knows, good might come from those willing to experiment more than myself. Conversely, Woe to all that accidentally start a purge (purge is not what it is called in the menu?), or some other unknown menu item.
God, forgive me for what I think I know and forgive me for what I don't know.
Anybody have a copy of the 9900-7900 technical service manual?
Anthony
Ps - before complaining to much about wasted ink. All one has to do is think back 10 years and what it took to print in a traditional darkroom and the price of chemicals. Much less, how much environmental damage is done by throwing the the chemicals down the drain, etc, etc, etc. I have no complaints with a miniscule annoyance. Digital life with all it's flaws is great.
Anthony...on the 7900 with the latest firmware pair cleaning is a user option obtained in the routine menu with no 'secret' button pushes. Is the 7900 different or are you using different firmware? Alternatively, perhaps we are talking about something different when we talk of pair cleaning.
Howard
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Anthony...on the 7900 with the latest firmware pair cleaning is a user option obtained in the routine menu with no 'secret' button pushes. Is the 7900 different or are you using different firmware? Alternatively, perhaps we are talking about something different when we talk of pair cleaning.
Howard
The option exists on the menu...but once pressed, the printer tests all the heads and cleans every head it determines to have a clog, NOT just the pair you select. Not what you might expect. Oversite or marketing... Not sure which, but I have a bet.
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The option exists on the menu...but once pressed, the printer tests all the heads and cleans every head it determines to have a clog, NOT just the pair you select. Not what you might expect. Oversite or marketing... Not sure which, but I have a bet.
I didn't realize that...the problem is that myself and multiple other owners seem to think that it isn't very accurate at determining the presence of head clogs.
Howard
http://www.howardgrill.com (http://www.howardgrill.com)
http://www.howardgrill.blogspot.com (http://www.howardgrill.blogspot.com)
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The option exists on the menu...but once pressed, the printer tests all the heads and cleans every head it determines to have a clog, NOT just the pair you select. Not what you might expect. Oversite or marketing... Not sure which, but I have a bet.
This is a direct quote from my query with Epson support.
"Thank you for taking the time to contact Epson. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry. When going into Maintenance and select cleaning for each color it will clean only the colors that you select"
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This is a direct quote from my query with Epson support.
"Thank you for taking the time to contact Epson. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry. When going into Maintenance and select cleaning for each color it will clean only the colors that you select"
I have to say that the couple of times I have had two colors clogged that were not 'opposing pairs' on the menu, and cleaned one of the pairs that included the clogged color...only that clogged color came clean and not the other. Of course, it is possible that the one that didn't come clean was also cleaned and just required two cleaning passes.
Howard
http://www.howardgrill.com (http://www.howardgrill.com)
http://www.howardgrill.blogspot.com (http://www.howardgrill.blogspot.com)
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Every time that I have had non-opposing colors clogged, all the clogged colors have been cleaned on a single pair cleaning selection (except when the printer has stopped on some preceding color because of a low ink level in a cartridge).
Epson support called me and told me that all colors were checked and cleaned (when any color pair cleaning was selected) after I had told the initial support guy that he didn't know what he was talking about and that I wanted to talk with somebody who knew something. If you time the "pair only" cleanings you will notice, in many cases, they take as long to do as a "start up check & clean". I have kept every nozzle check pattern I have printed, and notes as to what pair I was cleaning (paranoid after all the issues that I had with a 7600).
I am trying to determine the order in which the pairs are cleaned, because I have seen some indication that as you select pairs farther down the list, only those and the following pairs are checked and cleaned (more a hunch than anything). I just want the printer to do what is implied in the instructions that it can do, and what it can obviously do in the maintenance mode.
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Anthony...on the 7900 with the latest firmware pair cleaning is a user option obtained in the routine menu with no 'secret' button pushes. Is the 7900 different or are you using different firmware? Alternatively, perhaps we are talking about something different when we talk of pair cleaning.
Howard
Hi Howard,
It seems the routine menu pair cleaning is a misnomer. I am running the latest (March) firmware update.
The one time I cleaned by pairs through the start-up menu seemed to work. It only cleaned the Lt Blk and it's corresponding color. No others were cleaned. At least that's what showed in the Epson Printer Utility ink usage.
It's an additional time hassle, from nozzle check, to re-start & pair cleaning, restart again and another nozzle check before printing.... (And as stated before, a serious risk if you initiate the wrong menu item in the start-up menu. Wish I had a manual for this part of the menu.)
Your choice, trade off with time or money. If I have done my math right, it's approx $10 of ink waste per cleaning when all 10 cartridges are subject to cleaning. Bad PR for Epson's flag ship printers. They must be taking an economic bath with part replacements and on-site service.
Anthony
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This is a direct quote from my query with Epson support.
"Thank you for taking the time to contact Epson. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry. When going into Maintenance and select cleaning for each color it will clean only the colors that you select"
I had the tech call and confirm what is going on regarding this with Epson when he was repairing my 7900 last week. Whoever responded to you may not have researched the problem fully, and while perhaps somewhat "technically" correct, it really isn't 100% accurate.
Yes, the printer will clean just one color pair ... the one you selected. However, it will then perform an Auto Nozzle Check, even if you have this feature disabled, and if any nozzles fail the printer will continue to clean the head as if you selected the Normal Cleaning option which uses the Auto Ink Detect function.
I have never had an occasion where the entire head wasn't cleared, even when cleaning and more than 1 channel was involved. I have yet to clean 2 separate channels. To test this, yesterday I found 8 of my 10 colors showing at least 40% or more clogging ... all 5 channels had at least one clogged. I had the printer clean the PK/LK channel.
When cleaning was complete, all 10 colors were perfect.
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Yes, the printer will clean just one color pair ... the one you selected. However, it will then perform an Auto Nozzle Check, even if you have this feature disabled, and if any nozzles fail the printer will continue to clean the head as if you selected the Normal Cleaning option which uses the Auto Ink Detect function.
I have never had an occasion where the entire head wasn't cleared, even when cleaning and more than 1 channel was involved. I have yet to clean 2 separate channels. To test this, yesterday I found 8 of my 10 colors showing at least 40% or more clogging ... all 5 channels had at least one clogged. I had the printer clean the PK/LK channel.
When cleaning was complete, all 10 colors were perfect.
The problem gets worse if the AID is not working properly - then the printer will start cleaning until you get an error message - after quite a long time and some ink lost. Finally the Epson tech repair guys came and the whole pump-cap-assy system had to be replaced - and now things are working fine! I might even dare switiching the AID on
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The problem gets worse if the AID is not working properly - then the printer will start cleaning until you get an error message - after quite a long time and some ink lost. Finally the Epson tech repair guys came and the whole pump-cap-assy system had to be replaced - and now things are working fine! I might even dare switiching the AID on
Only this week, a manual nozzle test pattern revealed that almost all yellow and light grey nozzles were blocked on my 7900. This is the worst nozzle blocking I have had so far. I ran a manual clean for just these colours but my AID kicked in and after 20 minutes I had that dreaded error message. I selected cancel and performed a manual nozzle test pattern and not surprisingly it was perfect. I have the latest firmware and the auto nozzle check is turned off in the menus.
I am beginning to think that my 7900 is punishing me because it feels spurned.
(I am now doing about 95% of my printing on my Z3200 which just gets on with the job.)
So perhaps I will buy my 7900 some nice flowers to cheer it up a bit.
It might be worth a try as nothing else seems to work.
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The problem gets worse if the AID is not working properly - then the printer will start cleaning until you get an error message - after quite a long time and some ink lost. Finally the Epson tech repair guys came and the whole pump-cap-assy system had to be replaced - and now things are working fine! I might even dare switiching the AID on
Unfortunately the AID circuitry itself is notoriously unreliable, and detects faults when there are none. Best bet is to hope the nozzle clogging stays good. They replaced my pump/cap assembly in February, and it worked great for a couple of months, then clogging became worse than ever.
Only this week, a manual nozzle test pattern revealed that almost all yellow and light grey nozzles were blocked on my 7900. This is the worst nozzle blocking I have had so far. I ran a manual clean for just these colours but my AID kicked in and after 20 minutes I had that dreaded error message. I selected cancel and performed a manual nozzle test pattern and not surprisingly it was perfect. I have the latest firmware and the auto nozzle check is turned off in the menus.
I am beginning to think that my 7900 is punishing me because it feels spurned.
(I am now doing about 95% of my printing on my Z3200 which just gets on with the job.)
So perhaps I will buy my 7900 some nice flowers to cheer it up a bit.
It might be worth a try as nothing else seems to work.
I'm with you. Were it not for the outstanding print quality I would have given up on this printer. After replacing nearly every piece in this printer 2 or 3 times, Epson finally relented and shipped me a new 7900. I will be setting it up Tuesday.
The Auto Nozzle Check is a fiasco. If the printer didn't clog much like my 11880 it wouldn't matter much, but you cannot disable auto nozzle check except for between prints. If this function is not working properly, you can't turn it off. After every cleaning choice you make the printer will do a nozzle check, so if your AID system is not working, each cleaning cycle you do will result in multiple cleanings.
You cannot control the cleaning of nozzles manually by printing nozzle patterns and using manual cleaning choices. I have tried to find out if the service cleaning options use a nozzle check, but cannot confirm whether they do or do not.
Since the AID circuitry seems to be useless (I would guess the majority of us have disabled it, I have it disabled on my 11880 as well.) it seems a firmware update should be offered to all users adding another option, that of completely disabling the printer from performing any nozzle checks.
What would be better is making this feature work as advertised .... if it were reliable it would be a great feature.
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Unfortunately the AID circuitry itself is notoriously unreliable, and detects faults when there are none. Best bet is to hope the nozzle clogging stays good. They replaced my pump/cap assembly in February, and it worked great for a couple of months, then clogging became worse than ever.
Thanks for keeping us updated. I am looking forward to hear how the replacement printer works for you.
I experience similar problems as well. My 7900 worked OK for about 2 months after the cleaning station was replaced, but now I am having even worse clogs than before. It clogged during print too.
The AID works unreliably, sometimes it doesn't catch small clogs (2 different colors, 1 nozzle each) and sometimes it seems to trigger unnecessarily cleanings, where it then flushes a lot of ink before it stops - 20 or 30ml for one color pair.
It looks to me as if some part of the machine has really short lifetime and breaks after few weeks/months?
Another thing which comes to my mind is that in both cases, before 1st repair and the problems I experience now, it seems to me as if the troubles started after black ink was switched. I mostly print with MK, so it took about month and half after the repair before I switched to PK. It was the first time it started cleaning (I thought it was part of the black inks switch, which I doubt now, as it used much more ink than stated in manual). Shortly after the clogging started again and is getting worse and worse. Might be just coincidence though.
What bothers me too is that when one starts cleaning manually (after visual nozzle check), this cleaning is then not visible in the detailed Job Information. When it is triggered by ANC, one can see the consumption in the job info of which this cleaning was part of, so one can see exactly how much ink was used (33.69ml last time, for job which usually takes about 4ml :-( ) and even how much ink was used in each color channel.
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I'd just like to add a positive note, understanding that we often post only when having problems. Over two days last week I set a personal record and printed 60 different images to make a portfolio. A nozzle check print showed some cyan misses, and a "clean each pair" showed cyan depletion of 1% but no measured change in any other ink and resulted in a clean check print. Nearly all of those 60 prints were quite acceptable straight from soft-proof on the first try. I never could control the Z drivers to accomplish such a thing. A couple of those prints contained intentional blown-out white highlights and a spray-coat with PrintShield set a decently even gloss for hand portfolio viewing.
Just to say chin up if you can, and knock on wood if it's working.
In past enginerding work on a large-scale automated chemisty assay machine, I worked on droplet measurement (vs. detection) and it was a daunting task (http://www.gen-probe.com/tigris/animations.htm). My heart goes out to the Epson guys who struggled thru AID.
Ralph