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Author Topic: New PhaseOne - P40+  (Read 102740 times)

Graham Mitchell

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New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2009, 07:00:32 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
If I need more than 1fps, it means that my subject is moving and on that case any dslr will deliver more good shots and sharper photos than all these MF AF systems, including the upcoming Leica and the well regarded Hasselblad.

Not true. The faster frame rate is useful if you are shooting fashion, for example. A DSLR will likely give you more keepers if you are shooting subjects which change distance to camera quickly, like sports, but then why would you even consider a MF system for that?
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Snook

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New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2009, 07:12:21 pm »

Quote from: JeffVo
Drat!  Phase, can I have P50+ pretty please?  You know the one with the 50mp KODAK sensor that Hassy Happens to use?  That way the Phase faithful can have long exposure and a decent sized chip.  Pretty please? As I see it 9mp and faster shooting isnt making me want to trade in my P30+ anytime soon.  Does anyone know if RED has a trade in deal on MFD gear? ;-)

What the hell you going to do with RED..
Waste a lot of time in conversion maybe..:+}
Snook
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gwhitf

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« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2009, 07:30:27 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
For better or for worse a LOT of fashion shooters are pushing past 1 fps in just standard shooting. This back is almost twice as fast as a P30+ which is the current fashion-king (at least in the rental market that I know: South Beach / South Florida).

... And they're probably shooting tethered, with a Tech, so I guess the old-timey LCD is a non-issue here as well.

Still, it is very odd to think (read: know), that if you want to shoot an image that's lit, with a Phase back, where you're balancing ambient to strobe, and that balance is delicate, then you're FORCED to shoot it with a computer chained to it.

The more you do that, the less you want to do that. But Phase has clearly voted that the LCD issue is a non-issue to them. One day, a 3.5 inch LCD is gonna show up on a Nikon or Canon, along with about 31MP, and there's gonna be an immediate Sea Change, overnight. But it's not like they weren't warned, so their demise will be of their own making.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 09:25:17 pm by gwhitf »
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pixjohn

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« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2009, 07:38:06 pm »

My Strobe Packs can't even keep up with a Leaf Aptus 75. How many people can shoot fashion with strobes at 1.8 fps or even faster at 1 frame a second?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 07:38:51 pm by pixjohn »
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lisa_r

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« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2009, 08:16:53 pm »

John, you are probably not mixing daylight with strobe? When doing so, the power can be (needs to be) set very low and the recycle time is usually instantaneous with most any pack at that low power setting.

Steve, I'll politely ask again, why the shrimpy LCD??
Please answer, as many people would like to know.

Best,
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 08:17:30 pm by lisa_r »
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2009, 08:24:20 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
John, you are probably not mixing daylight with strobe? When doing so, the power can be (needs to be) set very low and the recycle time is usually instantaneous with most any pack at that low power setting.

Steve, I'll politely ask again, why the shrimpy LCD??
Please answer, as many people would like to know.

Best,

Lisa

I honestly do not know. As someone who has sold systems from all of the represented medium format manufacturers at one time or another, my experience with lackluster LCD's goes back quite a ways. I have asked many times and have never received a complete answer that spells out the reasons. I've heard they are difficult to source, I've heard they are difficult to implement with CCD chips the size we use and still maintain low noise, I've heard a new chassis (and the resulting new machining, costs, etc) would have to be deployed to fit a new LCD, etc. These answers have come from various manufacturers and various sources.

If I can find a reason for the size of our LCD that makes any sense I will post it here.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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lisa_r

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New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2009, 08:30:49 pm »

Ok Steve, thanks for  trying ;-)

Snook: That moving Esquire cover looks pretty cool to me.

Anyway when I think of video instead of stills, it makes me think that much of the stress will be removed from the shoot, as you will not need to be selecting a thousand precise instants per day. That's where a lot of the stress comes from for me: I'll take a shot NOW, NOW and....NOW - oops, did I get that expression? Oops, she's moving again...NOW, NOW...NOW...
Whereas if you are shooting video you will have gotten every last facial expression the model made that day. And you can chose your moments for the stills later at the computer. Pretty cool. I have dabbled in video recently, and it is WAY less stressful IMO.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 08:37:56 pm by lisa_r »
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2009, 09:15:02 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
P40+ is the first Phase One digital back to actually have the amount of megapixels match the name of the product! Yeah, baby!

Thank you, Phase!!!!   This is so much clearer!

I love it already.

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ziocan

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« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2009, 09:26:26 pm »

Quote from: pixjohn
My Strobe Packs can't even keep up with a Leaf Aptus 75. How many people can shoot fashion with strobes at 1.8 fps or even faster at 1 frame a second?
Never eared about that thing called the sun?


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dfarkas

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New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2009, 09:42:43 pm »

Quote from: pixjohn
My Strobe Packs can't even keep up with a Leaf Aptus 75. How many people can shoot fashion with strobes at 1.8 fps or even faster at 1 frame a second?

Hi-end rental studios have Profoto packs (like the new Pro-8a) that can recycle to full power (2400Ws) in 0.9 sec or up to 20 times per sec at lowest power!

David
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David Farkas
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dfarkas

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« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2009, 09:47:29 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Eric - you sold your P45 with long exposures, you're looking at Leica S2 and you criticize the P40+ for not having long exposures?  

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Steve,

The S2 is not limited in exposure time like the P40/P65 backs. According to the S2 product manager, there is no hard limit on exposure time in bulb, and there is even a convenient incrementing counter on the snazzy color OLED status screen.

David
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David Farkas
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c5gowin

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« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2009, 10:01:56 pm »

Was the expected availability date of the P40+ disclosed in the leak and I missed it or will it be given at the official announcement? A little humor was intended, but I am curious about the date.

Mark Gowin
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2009, 10:06:35 pm »

Quote from: dfarkas
Steve,

The S2 is not limited in exposure time like the P40/P65 backs. According to the S2 product manager, there is no hard limit on exposure time in bulb, and there is even a convenient incrementing counter on the snazzy color OLED status screen.

David


Well, when the S2 is released and it performs hour long exposures with little noise as the P45+ does, then I will understand Eric's post better.  


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2009, 10:07:57 pm »

Quote from: c5gowin
Was the expected availability date of the P40+ disclosed in the leak and I missed it or will it be given at the official announcement? A little humor was intended, but I am curious about the date.

Mark Gowin


Wow - did I not mention this?

Availability is immediate. Operators are waiting.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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c5gowin

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« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2009, 10:13:34 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Wow - did I not mention this?

Availability is immediate. Operators are waiting.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

OK that's funny.
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sdai

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« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2009, 10:49:18 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Well, when the S2 is released and it performs hour long exposures with little noise as the P45+ does, then I will understand Eric's post better.  

One must have a really good reason to sell what's available now and wait for something in the distant future.

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Boris_Epix

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« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2009, 11:28:17 pm »

Very underwhelming.

Same LCD? I'm sure some people will stop to read the spec sheet after that line.

Absolutely no incentive to spend money upgrading an old back and even less to get into the MFDB game.

 What did PhaseOne do? They beat the individual specs from different offerings with the P40+:
******************************************************************************


P65+, P45+,P30+, Hassy, Leaf, etc are slower
Canon/Nikon, P45+,P30+, Hassy H3D2-31/39, Leaf, have less resolution
P65+, P45+ are more expensive

 But the other side of the medal:
*****************************


P65+ has more resolution
P65+, P45+, Hassy H3D2-39, Leaf Aptus 75s, Leaf Afi 10, etc have bigger sensors
Canon / Nikon, P65+, P45+, Hassy H3D2-39, Leaf Aptus 75s, Leaf Afi 10 shoot wider lenses
P45+ has way longer exposure times available
The old backs and most DSLR's have bigger pixels
Canon / Nikon / every damn Point & Shoot, iPod, iTouch, etc have better LCD's
Canon / Nikon have faster capture rates
Canon / Nikon have better battery life
Canon / Nikon have better/faster workflow
Canon / Nikon/ P30+ have better pricing
Canon / Nikon have better usability / user interfaces
Canon / Nikon have more (custom) functions that allow adopting to ones shooting style
Canon / Nikon have better weather sealing
Canon / Nikon have wireless image transmitters (WIFI)
etc

So the unique selling proposition is "THE UNIQUE COMBINATION" of features (and shortcommings).

Doesn't that mean that there's better suited offerings out there depending on the core requirement?

The P40+ is certainly the wrong offering for the current economic environment.
No sane photographer will buy a P30+/P45+ now as everyone knows that you'll loose at least 50% of the resale value as soon as you take the back out of the shop. Steve Sherman is trying to sell his Aptus 75s for 12k$. Great deal. No takers. H3D2's show up all over the place for sale. And all that second hand equipment seems to sit there or go at insanely reduced prices. The P40+ will help to kill the second hand prices even more. But is that good for a niche that is based on overcharging, minor updates, lack of long-requested features and a extremely tiny user base?
Probably very few will upgrade from P30+ or P45+ to a P40+. Going from 31/39 MP to 40 is barely noticable when printed. On screen even less. But then the smaller sensor of the P40+ compared to the P45+ will hurt many shooters (landscape, architecture, still-life, product, etc).

I'm not a marketing expert but shouldn't a new product actually LOOK NEW? It's not like anyone would trade in their car to get a car that looks exactly the same with just a different sticker on the back and 20% better performance.

Let's talk about performance. I wouldn't get a new computer that didn't at least offer 100% better performance and offer features that my old computer didn't. But quite honestly shooting a P45+/P30+ still feels like shooting a P25 five years ago.

There's groundbreaking new technology out there. Development was never as fast in the high tech business as now (check out www.engadget.com and look at Plasma, LCD, LED, OLED TV sets, miniaturization of storage and MP3 players, SSD hard drives, etc).

There are new bayer pattern designs,
black silicon,
back-illuminated sensors with better sensivity ( http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/20...069E/index.html )
the Fujifilm sensors with two different sizes of pixels (that could perform great if enough sensor area was available to get it up to a useful resolution level),
Foveon,
faster wifi chips,
CMOS sensors that use less energy and stay cool,
The R, B, 2xG pattern was modified by Sony once and the second green pixel was replaced with emerald.

Why are we never seeing anything like that announced for MFDB's? It seems like MFDB companies are led by old conservative farts instead of young, eager, hungry and risk-taking individuals. MFDB cutting edge?  


That's probably what will slowly kill the MFDB industry.

NO REAL PROGRESS.

I have absolutely no clue about business numbers and all this is wild ass guessing but my ignorant market perception is that F&H will go completely belly up, Leaf will not have their shared Rollei/Sinar/Leaf Hy6/AFI platform any longer. Instead of crawling to Mamiya they'll just go belly up because Leaf AFI photographers will be pissed and invested. Kodak will stop throwing money at Leaf. Steve Hendrix changed to the PhaseOne camp. Calumet stopped selling Leaf. First signs?

Sinar is small enough to get out of the MFDB business altogether as indicated by the colaboration with Leaf producing some of their backs. Also Thierry that helped many people here at LL was laid off by Sinar. And PhaseOne suddenly switching to Dalsa sensors would indicate that Kodak could stop producing MFDB sensors or at least further development.

So now it's PhaseMiya and Hasselblad remaining. Slowly Canon, Nikon and Leica S2 type cameras will become better in many areas where MFDB's had their biggest strengths and they will cost 10 times less with all the added convinience, working workflows, great multipoint AF, improved colors/whitebalance, etc.

Now who's going to bother keeping MFDB companies alive? Even Annie Leibovitz shoots Nikons D3X and Canons 1Ds line whenever you see a behind the scenes vid. Sure she'll shoot occasionally a RZ or an AFI or whatever. But not exclusively. So clearly even highest caliber pro's where money doesn't matter the least bit and assistants (would) work for free MFDB doesn't seem to be the ideal solution.

Most work shot on a MFDB can be emulated with a DSLR and enough Photoshop skills. And some of the work where absolutely highest quality is required MFDB's alone are insufficient so it's done IN or with the help of CGI.

Just some random thoughts.

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EricWHiss

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« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2009, 12:19:53 am »

I'm excited about the higher ISO Performance as that was way more important to me than a big screen.   This is a big plus as far as I am concerned as that's one of the areas I had trouble with my p20 with most often.  I can work around a dull small screen but I can't work with a noisy file.  

Steve if the backs are indeed ready now - how about sharing a couple high ISO sample images with us?

Thanks,
Eric

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Boris_Epix

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« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2009, 12:31:20 am »

Quote from: Snook
What the hell you going to do with RED..
Waste a lot of time in conversion maybe..:+}
Snook


Snook,
don't write RED off so easily. They are eager. They have the funds. They have backup. Fanboys. Early adopters. Great directors looking to use Red. And so far the posted specs seem incredible. Sure they first need to deliver what they promissed but after Red One I have little doubt that they will offer an amazing package.

I agree with Lisa. If you can just videotape a model he/she will never feel in that strange "photo shooting situation" where she's waiting for the camera and the strobes. There's plenty good models that can work around those stops and always have great expressions and poses. But many new-comers, talents and even actors stare at the camera as if they were waiting for the train. Often it looks staged or posed. For them it's going to be so much easier when they can freely move and ACT.

Why should conversion take more time? I'd even expect editing to be more efficient for the shooter. You just play the video and skip parts where you didn't like the light or pose (although you can already see that live during the shooting on a GREAT big wide-gamut screen) and change whatever needs change. Downsize the video and send it on a DVD to the art director / customer. Let them tell you which second of the shooting is interesting to them. Then you just watch at the frames in that area. You'll just need to charge the customer for a 1 TB harddisk - they are going around 100$ a piece nowadays. So storage cost is not an issue either.

I ask myself often why cinema movies have those great colors and obvious great dynamic range that I need to hop through loops for when setting up the lights and spend hours on conversion and partially coloring bits of the pic. Sometimes I'm making 3 and more different conversions of one pic (one for the sky, one for the skin and one for the background) then fixing it all together on layers in photoshop. The skin whitebalance feature in C1 sounded like it could solve the problem with ugly over-pinkish or white skin. Not really.

Don't you miss the days where you just shot some Astia or Provia if you wanted gorgeous golden skin? Some NC for desaturated tones, Velvia for crazy wild colors, etc. Digital offers more resolution than we could ever ask for but the color and dynamic range... I just don't feel it even if all tests and experts say something else. It feels flat and wrong.

Shooting digital pics just gives you more work when retouching. Reddish skin? Green venes pushing through? This was a non-issue. How are they solving that in digital moved pictures? I assume they can't retouch every single frame of the movie by hand  :-)

I'm very interested where the Red journey goes. Much more than looking at those incremental MFDB one-up's.
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erick.boileau

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« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2009, 12:57:29 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Well, when the S2 is released and it performs hour long exposures with little noise as the P45+ does, then I will understand Eric's post better.  

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Steve you don't see a difference between hours and 1 minute ?
at night I shoot very often 4 or 5 minutes , I can do it with a Canon 1DS Marl III  (I did very often 8 minutes and the batteries are fantastic) and a Canon 5D Mark II  (for 2000 euro !  a perfect screen and good batteries) , it will be possible with a Leica S2 with certainly fantastic lenses , native DNG and a cheaper price

I have loved my P45 but what you get actually for 2000  doesn't justify to pay 20 000

If I pay the price you are asking for you back I want to get what I need , 3 years ago and now are different, for that price  and what you get you are not anymore in the game
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 01:10:46 am by erick.boileau »
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