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Author Topic: New PhaseOne - P40+  (Read 105691 times)

ziocan

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New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2009, 01:00:30 am »

Quote from: Boris_Epix
Snook,
don't write RED off so easily. They are eager. They have the funds. They have backup. Fanboys. Early adopters. Great directors looking to use Red. And so far the posted specs seem incredible. Sure they first need to deliver what they promissed but after Red One I have little doubt that they will offer an amazing package.

I agree with Lisa. If you can just videotape a model he/she will never feel in that strange "photo shooting situation" where she's waiting for the camera and the strobes. There's plenty good models that can work around those stops and always have great expressions and poses. But many new-comers, talents and even actors stare at the camera as if they were waiting for the train. Often it looks staged or posed. For them it's going to be so much easier when they can freely move and ACT.

Why should conversion take more time? I'd even expect editing to be more efficient for the shooter. You just play the video and skip parts where you didn't like the light or pose (although you can already see that live during the shooting on a GREAT big wide-gamut screen) and change whatever needs change. Downsize the video and send it on a DVD to the art director / customer. Let them tell you which second of the shooting is interesting to them. Then you just watch at the frames in that area. You'll just need to charge the customer for a 1 TB harddisk - they are going around 100$ a piece nowadays. So storage cost is not an issue either.

I ask myself often why cinema movies have those great colors and obvious great dynamic range that I need to hop through loops for when setting up the lights and spend hours on conversion and partially coloring bits of the pic. Sometimes I'm making 3 and more different conversions of one pic (one for the sky, one for the skin and one for the background) then fixing it all together on layers in photoshop. The skin whitebalance feature in C1 sounded like it could solve the problem with ugly over-pinkish or white skin. Not really.

Don't you miss the days where you just shot some Astia or Provia if you wanted gorgeous golden skin? Some NC for desaturated tones, Velvia for crazy wild colors, etc. Digital offers more resolution than we could ever ask for but the color and dynamic range... I just don't feel it even if all tests and experts say something else. It feels flat and wrong.

Shooting digital pics just gives you more work when retouching. Reddish skin? Green venes pushing through? This was a non-issue. How are they solving that in digital moved pictures? I assume they can't retouch every single frame of the movie by hand  :-)

I'm very interested where the Red journey goes. Much more than looking at those incremental MFDB one-up's.
If you guys think that editing raw files from a still camera is a pain and time consuming, wait and see when you will try pick few frames out of many thousands from a video footage. I did it once and it was not funny at all.
Not mentioning the amount of continuous light (and the cost, the bulk and the man power) you need for shooting motion at high resolution.
And beside all that, even shooting at 25fps, you may skip that wonderful moment that you dream of.
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erick.boileau

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New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2009, 01:07:47 am »

Quote from: sdai
One must have a really good reason to sell what's available now and wait for something in the distant future.

the P45 photos are fantastic but batteries and screen sucks , it is from another age, and I don't see a future with  PhaseOne/H1

I need, like many photographers, the flexibility of a Canon or Nikon,  IQ of medium format , and perfect lenses
I thought PhaseOne could do something like that but when I see the P65+ and now the P40+ I stop looking in that direction
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 01:22:50 am by erick.boileau »
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tom_l

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« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2009, 01:31:00 am »

Specs look fine to me.
Everybody wants something else, there's no perfect back, like there's no perfect car.
For studio, my perfext back would have 60-100 MP, 25-100 ISO, better LCD with direct live view, no lens cast problems and a price around 10000 €;-). ISO, don't care, FPS, don't care, size, doesn't matter. Some people need higher ISO, others don't. Some people want longer exposures, higher resolution, bigger sensors...
and ehm, better screens? Yes please:
I suppose if there's a new LCD in a few years(?), and it's still the same size than the current screen, people won't be happy either. They will have to redesign the whole back architecture, I suppose in the current economic situation, this is a no go. Maybe the manufacturers should join their efforts to get a decent price for some >20000 LCD's?


Tom
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bcooter

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New PhaseOne - P40+
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2009, 02:56:42 am »

Quote from: tom_l
Specs look fine to me.

To begin  . . . all of these comments seem negative, but it's only because we want more than just file size and expense.

It's all listed here on this thread, actually has been listed on these posts everytime somebody comes out with a new product, but it's like nobody reads this stuff, they just keep making pretty much the same thing they've always made.

It's just confusing.  Why does a P40+ cost less than half of a P65+ though only has a few mm less size in the sensor.

Is there really a $20,000 price break from Dalsa just by knifing off the edges, or is the p65+ overpriced.

It seems like somebody in Denmark said "hey, let's go after Hasselblad in this way.  For $2,000 more we can offer 9 more mpx . . . yea, that'll do it".

Obviously it's possible to make a good lcd and in camera processing, Sinar did it but they've fallen off the radar, so maybe that's not the goal.

Leaf can make a great file and offer an almost full frame camera at this price of the P40+, but in the end does it gain them market share?

Medium format is just confusing.


B
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 03:04:58 am by bcooter »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2009, 03:46:44 am »

People who want something like the P40+ with a better screen should look at the Sinar eSprit65 which has a 640x480 resolution 3" screen. It is also the only back which processes DNG and JPG files on board. So there IS a back maker listening...

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Nick_T

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« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2009, 04:29:23 am »

Quote from: foto-z
People who want something like the P40+ with a better screen should look at the Sinar eSprit65 which has a 640x480 resolution 3" screen.


Wow this is an actual photo of a Sinar screen? I mean you're saying it's not stripped in?

Nick-T
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2009, 04:37:03 am »

Actually the pixel binning would make sense to me, if I could shoot at 20 MP up to 3200 Iso. This would be a reason to buy a 40+. It would be the perfect setup. But only 10 MP in high iso mode doesn't do anything for me.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 04:37:49 am by heinrichvoelkel »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2009, 04:54:54 am »

Quote from: Nick_T
Wow this is an actual photo of a Sinar screen? I mean you're saying it's not stripped in?

I can only guess that a photo has been dropped in for the sales image but that was not the point of my thread. This is a 640x480 screen, which is 4 times the number of pixels on the P+ screens. Big difference!
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ThierryH

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« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2009, 05:00:17 am »

Yes, an image has been dropped in here, BUT I can affirm that this is the best screen I have ever seen: high res, bright, 3", as mentioned by Graham. It has actually the same image quality as the Nikon LCD.

I had actually mentioned this many times already, when the eSprit 65 back was launched, and still, everybody seems to look for something which already exists since nearly a year now.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: foto-z
I can only guess that a photo has been dropped in for the sales image but that was not the point of my thread. This is a 640x480 screen, which is 4 times the number of pixels on the P+ screens. Big difference!
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Carsten W

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« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2009, 05:11:31 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Carsten - we utilize both Dalsa and Kodak sensors.

Yes, that is clear. In the current line, the old backs use Kodak sensors, and the new ones Dalsa. I was asking if that is a trend, or if mixing will be the trend.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2009, 05:16:27 am »

Quote from: Boris_Epix
Probably very few will upgrade from P30+ or P45+ to a P40+.

I agree with much of what you said, but I don't think that the intended market is P30+/P45+ owners. Anyone owning anything Phase up to and including the P25+ is a prime candidate for this back. Whenever someone wanted more than a P25+, one common struggle for the P30+ was price and high ISO vs. microlenses (i.e. no tech camera usage). The difference in resolution is only interesting for a few fanatics (not using that in a derogatory sense). The P40+ nicely solves this. The price is competitive, the ISO good and there are no microlens issues. It will also be attractive for new buyers of Phase products, and I presume that this back will replace the P30+ fairly soon, OR that the P30+ price will drop to put pressure back on Hasselblad and Leica.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2009, 05:19:39 am »

Quote from: Boris_Epix
don't write RED off so easily.

RED is neat technology, but to use it to the fullest, imagine what continuous lighting you must buy, and what your power bill will be after that. Makeup and models will melt after 5 minutes. Your computer can be trashed, and you will need to get a monster rig with tonnes or RAM and an extremely fast set of disks, possibly optical, or E-SATA. The investment will be significant. And in the end, people act differently in front of a camera and a movie camera, and not all models will be suitable for filming. You may end up with the same good poses as with a camera, and junk in between. This is a very serious move in hope of a little serendipity.
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amsp

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« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2009, 06:09:34 am »

Quote from: carstenw
RED is neat technology, but to use it to the fullest, imagine what continuous lighting you must buy, and what your power bill will be after that. Makeup and models will melt after 5 minutes. Your computer can be trashed, and you will need to get a monster rig with tonnes or RAM and an extremely fast set of disks, possibly optical, or E-SATA. The investment will be significant. And in the end, people act differently in front of a camera and a movie camera, and not all models will be suitable for filming. You may end up with the same good poses as with a camera, and junk in between. This is a very serious move in hope of a little serendipity.

Not to mention there's a ton of photographic tricks, often used in fashion editorials, that you can't do with video capture. Besides, what's stopping you from shooting with continuous lighting and the 5fps or whatever on your still camera? I think RED is doing some very cool things, but I also think people are over hyping the impact video will have on regular photography.

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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2009, 07:50:16 am »

Quote from: carstenw
I agree with much of what you said, but I don't think that the intended market is P30+/P45+ owners. Anyone owning anything Phase up to and including the P25+ is a prime candidate for this back. Whenever someone wanted more than a P25+, one common struggle for the P30+ was price and high ISO vs. microlenses (i.e. no tech camera usage). The difference in resolution is only interesting for a few fanatics (not using that in a derogatory sense). The P40+ nicely solves this. The price is competitive, the ISO good and there are no microlens issues. It will also be attractive for new buyers of Phase products, and I presume that this back will replace the P30+ fairly soon, OR that the P30+ price will drop to put pressure back on Hasselblad and Leica.


Well after just picking up the P30+ more for the higher ISO than anything else . I did limit myself to a non tech camera and the micro lenses. Now at some point the P40+ would have a advantage for me to upgrade for a couple reasons. The tech camera usage and also a much faster shooting camera. Also when shooting event type work shooting a 10 mpx would be fine and actually wanted so there for me at least I see some advantage. Now I say all this because I DON"T want a DSLR for some of that work. Obviously a DSLR D700 say would do that for me but I really have no interest in having two systems. So for some folks this does help and make some sense. Others it will not. I don't think many or any P45 shooters would make a change here. I also look at this as another option among the 5 or 6 they have in there line and I think we forget that a lot around here. It obviously may not be for the landscape shooter since the P45+ with 1 hour exposures would be the better choice. I think some things we forget a lot are some shooters only specialize in one area and some like myself do many different types of shooting. For me this is always a struggle with gear because you are always trying to find the balance between what works best for all of it and the specialist is a much easier call on what works the best. I think that get's forgotten a lot. Fashion shooters for example are looking for speed and landscape folks could care less. The general theme though seems to be around the LCD and here is when I laugh at most of these posts. Maybe I am a old dog and don't forget the days of shooting Kodachrome on set with a million lights and not even a polaroid back and waiting by your favorite lab hoping for the miracle that you actually got it. Sure the 3in LCD is a wonder but man have we gotten that far away from trusting yourself and your abilities. I know many arguments on that but bottom line we are spoiled silly. I actually like the LCD and the quality of the Phase screen is actually good, okay pull around the white truck and sweep me away and warm up the padded cell. But I can actually use it. Maybe I am so used to the small DMR and M8 screen that I don't miss a bigger one either. Or just maybe I actually trust myself, now that one is something to ponder.
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scott morrish

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« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2009, 08:22:57 am »

Quote from: foto-z
Personally I don't see any value in the pixel binning at all, and it seems I'm not alone. Just curious - is anyone a fan of this feature?

I am interested in pixel-binning. I haven't tested it yet, but will in a week or so. It might not be everyones idea of progress... but it seems to provide yet more versatile tools for photographers. Isn't that what we want?

I hope that looking forward, this kind of sensor tecnology will allow us to get single captures with HDR, rather than having to resort to multiple exposures for dynamic range, and for focus, and for movement (especially as files get bigger and bigger).

It would be really neat if one back could go on a technical camera, or on a medium format camera with zooms, whilst also offering a choice of files as large as anyone could need, or smaller and faster files, or higher ISO files, or higher dynamic range files... all with the same back at the switch of a button or two. Most of that is possible now, and things will get better still. It is expensive, but it is exciting too.

Admittedly the screen on these backs isn't great... but it is not that bad either. As it happens, i'd be more interested in better viewfinders than a better screen; a histogram and highlight warnings that can be displayed at the same time; highlight warnings based on raw data rather than jpegs.

Scott
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gwhitf

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« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2009, 09:32:23 am »

Random thoughts:

1. I have seen the screen from that Sinar back, in person. It's a tad better than the Phase LCD, but still a far cry from the SIZE of the Canon screen. When I look at these LCD's, to me they require both Size and Density to be effective, when you're judging subtleties of light. Maybe it's the amount of backlight coming in a window behind the subject, and you're trying to judge how much you want to fry it, or maybe you're also doing mild subtle fill, and you're trying to really see how much foamcore or strobe to add. Density alone doesn't do it for me, I need Size. 3" is the bare minimum starting place, from any brand of back.

2. And for anyone clueless enough to say, "Carry around the Polaroid back for your camera", don't even bother. Yeah, you're going to stand there in a field, or a beach, on a job, with sand or dirt blowing around, holding that exposed back, while the assistant fumbles with attaching/removing the Polaroid back? Film is dead; it's a non issue. Don't even bring it up.

3. The Phase casing is starting to feel like a 1968 Dodge Dart. I don't have any idea how much money it would take to redesign the casing to enlarge the LCD area, but I do know a 1968 Dodge Dart when I see it, standing next to a 2009 Lexus. I'm a photographer, not a product designer. At some point, you've gotta face facts and listen to customers, and pony up the money, (or just fade away).

4. With all due respect, Mr. Mancuso means well, I'm sure, but he seems to be too close to CI and/or Phase to be critically objective. It might be just fine for him to be "waiting by your favorite lab hoping for the miracle that you actually got it", but in this economy, (or any modern economy), hoping that you got it simply does not provide a solid foundation for a business model. Mr. Mancuso seems to be fine with living in his nostalgic memories, which on some level is fine, but when you're dropping $20-35k on the ass end of one camera, "hoping you got it" does not seem sufficient.

5. The inferior LCD on the Phase also requires that if you're working on an even half-complicated image, either for Test or for a Job, you're required to also drag along the Dog/Pony Laptop. Honestly, when working fast, it's a buzz kill many times, and really slows down the process -- a tripod for the laptop; the cable; etc etc. With the 1ds3, or Nikon, you actually *could* trust fill lighting, right from the LCD. That might not be a big deal to a designer in Denmark, but it is to a working photographer. When you take away the Polaroid option, you simply NEED a large, accurate LCD to do anything other than available light, and let's not bullshit each other -- How many real money jobs are shot with available light?

6. I wish Steve Hendrix well, and he's gotten massive feedback from photographers, but Phase One is shockingly slow to implement change. They are becoming the company that Cried Wolf, and people simply stopped listening.

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archivue

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« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2009, 09:46:06 am »

LCD... with their last generation, you can see the image from a leaf back on your Iphone... not a bad idea !
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2009, 09:50:28 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
1. I have seen the screen from that Sinar back, in person. It's a tad better than the Phase LCD, but still a far cry from the SIZE of the Canon screen.

Then you haven't seen this one. It is exactly the same size (3") and pixel density (640x480) as the Canon 5DII and the Nikon D3X screens.

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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2009, 09:54:54 am »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I also look at this as another option among the 5 or 6 they have in there line and I think we forget that a lot around here.

There you go.
- faster shooting than anything we have by a LOT
- very high resolution
- priced below the 45+ and 65+
- still able to be used on a tech camera
- long lenses are longer (less ultra wide options)

None of our backs (or any camera / back in the world) solve every problem. This one has some strong advantages and some disadvantages.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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gwhitf

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« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2009, 10:00:48 am »

Quote from: foto-z
Then you haven't seen this one. It is exactly the same size (3") and pixel density (640x480) as the Canon 5DII and the Nikon D3X screens.

If it was the 65, then I assume you are correct, and I stand corrected. Maybe it was colored by the fact that it was a PhotoEast, and the back was still pre-production, and it kept crashing and locking up, and the Sinar guy in the booth couldn't figure out how to make it work properly. He just stood there, perplexed, and I thanked him for his time, and walked away.
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