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rainer_v

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« Reply #260 on: June 18, 2009, 11:30:59 pm »

without wanting to start a discussion if i am right or wrong, my input is that i believe the future of mf would be studio/ architecture and maybe some niche markets as landscape. nothing more. its obvious that this markets cant be gained by 35mm systems or only in parts, similar than in the 4x5" times.

and especially this market is seen as not worth to even write programs which deliver castfree images and reasonable well thought workflows.
this makes me think the players dont know where is their game, they dream and they make big marketing researches <about fantastic numbers which could be sold, where they only should use their brains or ( maybe better ) ask some professionals. not hundreds, some.
i am with peter that it would be a big loss if these niche systems will disappear only for not having visions on side of the companies, because there is no other system which could compensate this loss. thats different in fashion, it still might be a loss for some people but there is no real problem to go on working with a 35mm either. and this seem to be the only market the mf guys look after.

btw. i agree too that the prices from nowadays would have changed the whole game, if they would have been here some time ago.
i am not informed about but i believe sensor costs are now the same than some time ago, probably many of the 22/33/39 mp backs might be sold even from shelf ( leaf: how many hundred backs you have laying around with centerfold which could be removed easily by stephans or a similar qualified written code ? ) , so the calculation which works now,- created  by emergency,- could have worked 1,2 or 3 years ago too.
it seems as all players all the time looked only about the border: what are doing the others, what features they have,  which prices are making the competitors.
does another manufactor has a sliding back yet? if not ... we dont need to make it either.  
does another manufactor makes dngs?  if not we dont need it too.
does another correct colorcasts on the fly? if not ....
does another brand sells backs under $15.000,-- ? if not ....
does another manufactor still has a real open system?  if not ...
and so on.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 11:35:48 pm by rainer_v »
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mcfoto

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« Reply #261 on: June 19, 2009, 12:29:11 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
This thread has 35,000 views    

There is probably more exposure here than in a trade show...

Can I ask you -- 35,000 viewers--, : Who are you?--

I think a week ago it was 25,000 views & now its 35,000+ views! I have talked to both the Leaf & Phase dealers & they are very aware of what is going on with F&H. Overall there is concern about what is happening. We have the PMA show coming next week in Sydney ( Australias largest annual photo trade show ) & I know the Hasselblad & Phase/Mamiya agents will be there. Maybe in one more week we will have more news?
Denis
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 12:47:56 am by mcfoto »
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« Reply #262 on: June 19, 2009, 12:43:26 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Imagine a MF with no mirror mechanism? it means that it could be smaller, with sharper lenses that could have less elements, less distortion, better color, sharper. With faster apertures.

Technology can safely make the mirror mechanism obsolete. Then you could have LIVE view, PC correction live. Super HD movie capability.

This is what Rollei/F&H/Sinar should have done as a proposition to the future of MF, instead of make up changes in to an old 6x6 system.

We will probably see that from a completely new company like RED...

YES, and a big LCD, please.



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« Reply #263 on: June 19, 2009, 01:02:34 am »

I can't believe that all professional photography would be produced with 35 digital in the near future, unless photography runs the same luck as hi-fi listening. So far, I haven't met a human being below 30 unsatisfied by MP3 quality.Even a friend of mine (jazz nut) in his late 20's usually listens to his entire collection of jazz cd's (about 700) in mp3 with a bit rate of 256 or something. He can't tell the difference! We're screwed!
When I was a beginner, I learned about 35, MF, 4X5 and 8X10 cameras and every format had a special application. Now it seems that everything will be done with "35 digital". It is probably the most universal format of all times. Only catch is too small for human dimensions. MF was right on the target in image quality and ergonomics to facilitate a creative workflow.
It is very sad that we would had to deal with miniature viewfinders. Autofocus for still life!! For Christ sake, these small viewfinders are so small and so uncontastry that AF is a necessity. What about lookinf through a WLF to compose an image and look at your poser straight to the eye to give him/her directions. That was called rapport! - Do you remember this word?
Now we have to struggle with auto everything cameras that change the function of any knob and wheel depending of the mode you're in. Imagine a car that switches the brake pedal for the accelerator by the action of a click! - That's what I have to deal every day with my 5D. It can't get anymore stupid than this!

MF manufacturers better get their act together before I leave photography for good. (I'm dramatizing) But amigos, it is that bad. Seriously.
Eduardo
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Martin Kristiansen

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« Reply #264 on: June 19, 2009, 01:37:03 am »

Quote from: uaiomex
What about lookinf through a WLF to compose an image and look at your poser straight to the eye to give him/her directions. That was called rapport! - Do you remember this word?
Now we have to struggle with auto everything cameras that change the function of any knob and wheel depending of the mode you're in. Imagine a car that switches the brake pedal for the accelerator by the action of a click! - That's what I have to deal every day with my 5D. It can't get anymore stupid than this!
Eduardo

Have to agree with this. When auto cameras first starting gaining ground I was mystified as to how it was supposed to be easier than my Minolta SRT101 where all I had to do was focus and set exposure. My Leaf back on a Cambo out in a landscape or shooting a still life in my studio provides me with an experience I cannot replicate on my DSLR's and I have shot on DCS420 DCS460 DCS560 D30 1DS 1DSMKII 5D and 1DMKIII.

If all I had was DSLR's I would most likely give up my personal work and just shoot commercially.
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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #265 on: June 19, 2009, 02:55:14 am »

Quote from: rainer_v
how is it possible that hasselblad still ignores and neglect the color shifts produced by shift lenses and not offering a solution which works 1005 colorshiftfree?

Explain?

We do not ignore this and have offered a solution (as all other manufacturers) for correcting color shifts on wide angle lenses, or other lenses with movements.  It has been available very early on with FlexColor and improved in Phocus.


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rainer_v

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« Reply #266 on: June 19, 2009, 03:13:57 am »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Explain?

We do not ignore this and have offered a solution (as all other manufacturers) for correcting color shifts on wide angle lenses, or other lenses with movements.  It has been available very early on with FlexColor and improved in Phocus.

you write it in a format which is usable in other converters than yours as color corrected files? i dont think so but maybe i am wrong.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 03:15:18 am by rainer_v »
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ThierryH

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« Reply #267 on: June 19, 2009, 03:20:29 am »

Steve,

That is the whole point in making prices: would anyone be able to have the correlation between price reduction and sale volumes increase, that would make that "anyone" being a billionaire.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
However, there is a critical link between how much lower and how many more users.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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« Reply #268 on: June 19, 2009, 03:32:04 am »

I think there is one additional market: hobby users like me who like the medium format handling (I really like the viewfinder of my Hy6) and I even believe I can see in many images a better IQ than I can get with my Nikon. Call my crazy but I even use MF often for family snapshots and I enjoy it.

How would a MF-camera without mirror look like? Framing with display or EVF? Please not.
Actually for my taste the Hy6 is just right and its wonderfull to be able to use all those Rollei lenses.

I agree though that a larger display and live view on the display would be really nice to have.
I give some credit to the MF and Back brands: I think they have really low numbers (compared to 35mm cameras) and its probably not possible to cover as much R&D-cost for them-specially in this price-combat we see today.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #269 on: June 19, 2009, 03:37:56 am »

Quote from: TMARK
What baffels me is why the big players never had a similar collaboration with fashion, interior, tabletop product shooters.  I mean a real collaboration, not a product endorsement.


There is nothing to add to this that hasn't been said before.

In many instances, (not all) medium format digital produces a better image than 35mm, at least to the photographer. ie. more sharpness and detail.

To the client, that can be debatable, because a lot of clients I work with look at this uber sharpness and micro detail as more digital looking  than film like looking.

Yes, I shot a marketing piece for Phase and had some conversations about software with the marketing people.  My response to software was just to make lightroom that tethered and had better out of the box color profiles, though phase went more of a complicated direction with their user interface, so I guess they have their reasons???

As far as cameras a Phase engineer did contact me and we had few fairly lengthy discussions about cameras.  I did very much enjoy the discussion with the engineer because he was the "boots on the ground" guy though how much he, (or anyone for that matter) can do to improve an existing Mamiya is questionable.  (My words not his, because nobody I have ever spoken to at Phase was negative about anything).

Still, I looked at the AFD 1, 2, 3, not as a lump of coal to be turned into a diamond, but more of a piece of glass somebody had made from a rock.  You can polish it all you want but it still came from a rock and will never bee a diamond. (one again my word's not Phase's).  I also mentioned a right angle grip and more responsiveness, faster shooting speeds, etc.

I actually could have summed up the whole camera discussion with make a H series with no mirror slap (and in black), or make a HY6 with all the bits and lenses ready to buy (and in black) or make a Contax with a brighter viewfinder (and keep it black), but most imortantly in the world of almost medium format make a fast 100 to 110 mm lens and keep all the prices as low as possible.

I actually "should" have summed it up with just make a canon with a removable prism and a larger sensor.

As far as the P65 nobody from phase mentioned this, though I had some idea a Dalsa sensor was coming as I kept hearing rumblings that maybe Dalsa is more film like than Kodak, so I assumed that was the next step.  

Oh and I did bring up the phase lcd (insert perplexed smiley face here).

Regardless of what happens to medium format I have an overwhelming belief that traditional still photography is becoming more marginalized by the day.

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0704...hotography.html

And the camera systems that go forward in the next few years (prior to the recession I would have said a decade), will have to have either fast still capabilities of high definition video good enough for print.  (good enough is a very broad term).

Our studios began motion production 6 to 7 years ago and at the time, most clients asked, "what will we do with it?".  Today most clients ask to have some kind of motion with each still session and now it's progressed to where neither medium is the goal.

It's gone from shoot a little video during the still production, or shoot a few stills during the video.   Now it's moved to we want great stills and great motion.

Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR


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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #270 on: June 19, 2009, 04:48:07 am »

Quote from: Leonardo Barreto
Imagine a MF with no mirror mechanism? it means that it could be smaller, with sharper lenses that could have less elements, less distortion, better color, sharper. With faster apertures.

Nice dream but still not feasible today, never mind a few years ago. How would you focus the thing? An LCD (even the best available 3" VGA type) is absolutely useless to judge *accurate* focus, espcially on a 60MP sensor! It could be ok if you have all the time in the world to go through menus to zoom and scroll to check focus on specific parts of the image, but what about moving subjects?

And the dream of using the sensor itself as the AF sensor is not possible because the MF sensors don't support it (yet).
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 04:54:33 am by foto-z »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #271 on: June 19, 2009, 05:04:19 am »

Quote from: James R Russell
Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR

I totally love this! I can understand why the Ad Agency went over the top. It looks really cool. Who needs video when you can do this with a D700  The choppyness adds to the experience, I am pretty sure in this case the impact would have been less with smooth video but I get your point...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 05:04:38 am by Dustbak »
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yaya

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« Reply #272 on: June 19, 2009, 05:27:37 am »

Quote from: James R Russell
Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

JR

Beautifully done James!

Yair
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mcfoto

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« Reply #273 on: June 19, 2009, 06:34:32 am »

Quote from: James R Russell
There is nothing to add to this that hasn't been said before.

In many instances, (not all) medium format digital produces a better image than 35mm, at least to the photographer. ie. more sharpness and detail.

To the client, that can be debatable, because a lot of clients I work with look at this uber sharpness and micro detail as more digital looking  than film like looking.

Yes, I shot a marketing piece for Phase and had some conversations about software with the marketing people.  My response to software was just to make lightroom that tethered and had better out of the box color profiles, though phase went more of a complicated direction with their user interface, so I guess they have their reasons???

As far as cameras a Phase engineer did contact me and we had few fairly lengthy discussions about cameras.  I did very much enjoy the discussion with the engineer because he was the "boots on the ground" guy though how much he, (or anyone for that matter) can do to improve an existing Mamiya is questionable.  (My words not his, because nobody I have ever spoken to at Phase was negative about anything).

Still, I looked at the AFD 1, 2, 3, not as a lump of coal to be turned into a diamond, but more of a piece of glass somebody had made from a rock.  You can polish it all you want but it still came from a rock and will never bee a diamond. (one again my word's not Phase's).  I also mentioned a right angle grip and more responsiveness, faster shooting speeds, etc.

I actually could have summed up the whole camera discussion with make a H series with no mirror slap (and in black), or make a HY6 with all the bits and lenses ready to buy (and in black) or make a Contax with a brighter viewfinder (and keep it black), but most imortantly in the world of almost medium format make a fast 100 to 110 mm lens and keep all the prices as low as possible.

I actually "should" have summed it up with just make a canon with a removable prism and a larger sensor.

As far as the P65 nobody from phase mentioned this, though I had some idea a Dalsa sensor was coming as I kept hearing rumblings that maybe Dalsa is more film like than Kodak, so I assumed that was the next step.  

Oh and I did bring up the phase lcd (insert perplexed smiley face here).

Regardless of what happens to medium format I have an overwhelming belief that traditional still photography is becoming more marginalized by the day.

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0704...hotography.html

And the camera systems that go forward in the next few years (prior to the recession I would have said a decade), will have to have either fast still capabilities of high definition video good enough for print.  (good enough is a very broad term).

Our studios began motion production 6 to 7 years ago and at the time, most clients asked, "what will we do with it?".  Today most clients ask to have some kind of motion with each still session and now it's progressed to where neither medium is the goal.

It's gone from shoot a little video during the still production, or shoot a few stills during the video.   Now it's moved to we want great stills and great motion.

Recently I tried a little experiment.  I was scouting a location for a still and motion shoot we will produce next week.  Rather than shoot the obligatory single frame of each area, I decided to set the Nikon D700 (a still camera not a video camera) on jpeg and a fast frame rate and shoot it like a motion camera.

It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR
Hi James
Really well done!
Denis
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #274 on: June 19, 2009, 09:16:14 am »

love it.
But to be honest I'm blown away with the video qualities of the 5DMKII at the moment.
I find myself filming more and more.
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TMARK

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« Reply #275 on: June 19, 2009, 09:20:57 am »

Quote from: James R Russell
It's rough, hand held and obviously choppy, though the response I got from this location video from the ad agency was over the top.  

http://www.russellrutherford.com/web_fast_cut.mov

and keep in mind these moving images are print grade retouchable quality.

[attachment=14641:devil_jamesrussell.jpg]

That's got to tell you something.  At least it did to me.



JR

Nice JR.  The color grading is fantastic, and most importantly its cut real nice.  Good rythem to the cuts, and doubling back to the same image creates a nice sense of repetition, like a hook in a song.  Cutting is very similar to music.

As an aside, I haven't seen dirt oval track racing in years.  I went to the Cecil County Raceway in north eastern Maryland to see DEO.  I thought DEO was just using the venue, but no, it was DEO and auto events, like monster truck car crush, some greaser 1/4 mile runs, and dirt oval racing.  It was incredible.
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rainer_v

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« Reply #276 on: June 19, 2009, 12:35:02 pm »

Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Explain?

We do not ignore this and have offered a solution (as all other manufacturers) for correcting color shifts on wide angle lenses, or other lenses with movements.  It has been available very early on with FlexColor and improved in Phocus.



   
QUOTE

you write it in a format which is usable in other converters than yours as color corrected files? i dont think so but maybe i am wrong.

mount one of your h-backs on a studio camera, put symmetric lenses or rodenstock hr lenses in front of this setup, shoot untethered, make some movements and make more than one shot,- lets say twenty  shots with different movements,- you should have a grey wall or object in the image. convert them to tiff in your software or in other. correct as you say the color shifts, check afterwards the results ( if its true that they are uniform,- the colors should not be more different than max. 2 ( of 255) rgb steps ). if you can reach this goal ( i doubt it ) please stop the time you needed. as far i know there is no thought in a batch correction,- means in a batch correction of several DIFFERENT shifted files which need different white files to correct them.
try afterwards the same with exposure and a sinar back  and maybe you know better what i am try to tell.  you dont have to sit aside the laptop during the corrections in this case, it runs as batch for all the different shifted files.

next step is you may multiply the time difference between the two systems by 200, than you get an idea of which amount of time i am speaking. this equals 200 nights in a hotel after long shooting days ( thinking in a busy year- for our economy multiply it with 100    ). this is the time your users spend  in front of their laptops every night instead of doing nicer things than basic conversions of files just to correct color shifts.

in general happens in our small dialog exactly what i am telling: companies argue how good is their stuff, but often  they even dont have a clear idea whats going on and where about ( some ) users speak. dont take it personal,- unfortunately this is the rule since many years in mf business, hasselblad is no exception. the dialogues go usually till this point where the companies are nerved by the questions ( probably they see them as destructive ),- than comes big silence and the communication is of,  the problems usually are denied and ( worse ) not seen by the manufactors, or the users are told that only their single unit is defect and this mistake never happened before- the worse thing is the reps/techs/managers in many cases believe themselfe what they tell.
they  better would listen and contact people from outside ( again: not hundreds of opinions ) who have obviously the knowledge how these things may work in a way that it makes sense to use it in practice.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 12:52:55 pm by rainer_v »
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #277 on: June 19, 2009, 02:19:10 pm »

First of all MF have primitive focus systems, Hasselblad V = non AF. Most others have one AF point that you have to set-and-compose. How precise is that? Second, even the iPhone has a focus solution that is an example of what will come in the future. You have a 3 inch display and use your finger to tell the camera where you want exposure and focus to be. I am not saying that this exact solution will work for fashion MF, but .. it is feasible today.

You don't have to judge accurate focus on a 3 inch. display, let the camera do that. It is called AF. (and it could probably do it better than my naked eyes even on a 6x7 reflex system, but may be not true for young photographers)

Mirrors have moving mechanisms they slap the body of the camera when you need quiet, they slow things, consume battery juice, they get in the way of live views, (one day sensors will be able to work live).

And the worst of all: mirrors push lenses away from sensor plane and force lens designers to throw in more elements just to correct the formula and yet more elements to correct problems caused by the first elements.

That is why rangefinders like Leicas are so small, sharp and fast. The mirror is an accommodating solution that will be rendered obsolete by technology. The only question is when. And by what company.

With a live view MF you can shoot waist level and switch to eye level in a second. You can also program the camera to follow the eyes of the model, just dial the name of the models you want the camera to follow. Can you do that with a Hasselblad 500 c/m ?

All of this technology is here. It is true that it is hard to put everything together with the not so high margins of a company like Sinar/F&H, but they could have started with a simple electronic range finder, 645, or an optical rangefinder. Every photographer that uses a Leica insist that focusing is faster than with anything man made....

I don't know exactly how this should be because I am a photographer, not a CEO of camera maker industry, but what I know is that what F&H proposed was looking to the past instead of to the future...


Quote from: foto-z
Nice dream but still not feasible today, never mind a few years ago. How would you focus the thing? An LCD (even the best available 3" VGA type) is absolutely useless to judge *accurate* focus, espcially on a 60MP sensor! It could be ok if you have all the time in the world to go through menus to zoom and scroll to check focus on specific parts of the image, but what about moving subjects?

And the dream of using the sensor itself as the AF sensor is not possible because the MF sensors don't support it (yet).



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« Reply #278 on: June 19, 2009, 04:24:23 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
Nice JR.  The color grading is fantastic, and most importantly its cut real nice.  Good rythem to the cuts, and doubling back to the same image creates a nice sense of repetition, like a hook in a song.  Cutting is very similar to music.

@ JR look at Roman Kuhn and how he is using the Canon 1d to shoot movies....link

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David Grover / Capture One

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« Reply #279 on: June 19, 2009, 05:18:05 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
mount one of your h-backs on a studio camera, put symmetric lenses or rodenstock hr lenses in front of this setup, shoot untethered, make some movements and make more than one shot,- lets say twenty  shots with different movements,- you should have a grey wall or object in the image. convert them to tiff in your software or in other. correct as you say the color shifts, check afterwards the results ( if its true that they are uniform,- the colors should not be more different than max. 2 ( of 255) rgb steps ). if you can reach this goal ( i doubt it ) please stop the time you needed. as far i know there is no thought in a batch correction,- means in a batch correction of several DIFFERENT shifted files which need different white files to correct them.
try afterwards the same with exposure and a sinar back  and maybe you know better what i am try to tell.  you dont have to sit aside the laptop during the corrections in this case, it runs as batch for all the different shifted files.

next step is you may multiply the time difference between the two systems by 200, than you get an idea of which amount of time i am speaking. this equals 200 nights in a hotel after long shooting days ( thinking in a busy year- for our economy multiply it with 100    ). this is the time your users spend  in front of their laptops every night instead of doing nicer things than basic conversions of files just to correct color shifts.

in general happens in our small dialog exactly what i am telling: companies argue how good is their stuff, but often  they even dont have a clear idea whats going on and where about ( some ) users speak. dont take it personal,- unfortunately this is the rule since many years in mf business, hasselblad is no exception. the dialogues go usually till this point where the companies are nerved by the questions ( probably they see them as destructive ),- than comes big silence and the communication is of,  the problems usually are denied and ( worse ) not seen by the manufactors, or the users are told that only their single unit is defect and this mistake never happened before- the worse thing is the reps/techs/managers in many cases believe themselfe what they tell.
they  better would listen and contact people from outside ( again: not hundreds of opinions ) who have obviously the knowledge how these things may work in a way that it makes sense to use it in practice.


Rainer,

If I was to write on this forum (read by many people and therefore influenced by its content) that 'The Sinar White Shading function is crap', you would quite rightly reprimand me and tell me I was quite wrong.  So please prepare yourself for a similar fate.

From a very early release of Phocus there has been the possibility to create a 'White Shading File', Custom White in our case, untethered and with batch corrections over multiple files when you are back at the studio.  You can also save an infinite number of presets for your various lenses / setups in various forms of shift and tilt.

Therefore your comments 'I doubt' and 'as far as I know' should be learnt from when making assumptions about software and hardware you are not necessarily 100% familiar with.

To clarify I also believe we can claim a uniform correction within 2 points on the RGB scale.

If you find my 'claims' tall, I would suggest a visit to one of my German colleagues who can demonstrate aptly the Custom White Function.  I also quite some time ago posted the workflow on this forum.

So I am afraid I still take it personally when misinformation is spread.

Best,



David
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 05:18:34 pm by David Grover / Hasselblad »
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David Grover
Business Support and Development Manager
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