Price Reduction Sinar Hy6 - 54 & Sinar Hy6 - 75 Camera Systems & Backs

[Kumar]

Switzerland isn't an EU member, so those rules would not apply. On second thoughts, the distributor could screw you. Might not take that vacation in the Alps then!

If any one on this forum has bought direct from Sinar AG, I'm sure all of us would like to hear about their experience with the distributor, if any.

Cheers,
Kumar

[Graham Mitchell]

That is ridiculous! If I buy from the factory directly I should go to the factory again for warranty & service. I would not trust a dealer to handle my stuff properly when he is not allowed to make money of it.

What is the problem? Many thousands of large companies have international warranties allowing you to buy at one place and get the product serviced at another. The service provider often gets paid by the manufacturer for each warranty repair they handle, but that is individual to each contract.

This arrangement allows you to go to the nearest dealer wherever you are in the world, to get your back serviced. Very useful if you are on assignment in Italy, for example!

Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.

[Kumar]

What is the problem? Many thousands of large companies have international warranties allowing you to buy at one place and get the product serviced at another. The service provider often gets paid by the manufacturer for each warranty repair they handle, but that is individual to each contract.

This arrangement allows you to go to the nearest dealer wherever you are in the world, to get your back serviced. Very useful if you are on assignment in Italy, for example!

Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.

Thanks for clarifying that, Graham. So it's an international warranty, not country-specific. That wasn't very clear from Thierry's reply.

Cheers,
Kumar

[Graham Mitchell]

Thanks for clarifying that, Graham. So it's an international warranty, not country-specific. That wasn't very clear from Thierry's reply.

Cheers,
Kumar

As far as I know. Perhaps Thierry can confirm. (And even if it wasn't it is very common practice to be able to take an item to the nearest service representative rather than place of purchase. Look at Apple, for example.)

[Dustbak]

Switzerland isn't an EU member, so those rules would not apply. On second thoughts, the distributor could screw you. Might not take that vacation in the Alps then!

Cheers,
Kumar

You are correct.  France & Belgium are, their dealers should not refuse to sell to or not communicate to me with the reason they are prohibited by contractual obligations. Which they did when I asked a price quote last year when I was in the market for a new multishot back.

Again. Lets not take this into consideration and just look at what really is happening. I see a manufacturer posting a great discounted offer. Dealers in several different locations apparently ignore this and add some substantial apparently random numbers.

Who can explain me why I can get a Sinar 75 for appr. 17K in Switzerland but have to pay appr. 22K if I buy it locally? What am I paying 5K extra for?

[Graham Mitchell]

Who can explain me why I can get a Sinar 75 for appr. 17K in Switzerland but have to pay appr. 22K if I buy it locally? What am I paying 5K extra for?

Again, I don't understand your complaint. Every product I can think of is a different price in different countries, or even between different shops in the same country. Estonian prices on consumer goods are often 50-100% more than in the US, for example. People here literally do fly to the US to go shopping and save. This is nothing new.

[Dustbak]

What is the problem? Many thousands of large companies have international warranties allowing you to buy at one place and get the product serviced at another. The service provider often gets paid by the manufacturer for each warranty repair they handle, but that is individual to each contract.

This arrangement allows you to go to the nearest dealer wherever you are in the world, to get your back serviced. Very useful if you are on assignment in Italy, for example!

Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.

Very well, in that case there is already some part reserved for that arrangement in the prices Thierry mentioned. Makes me even wonder more what I am paying extra for over here?

I totally agree that International warranty is the way to go but in that case there should also be a possibility to harmonize pricing Internationally which doesn't mean it gets the same every place but you weed out differences that should not be there.

Sure, Thierry cannot speak about every management decision of Sinar but I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about. He is here as a company representative so if I have a question regarding anything Sinar I will ask him first. Unless the Sinar CEO comes online I might ask him first

[Dustbak]

Again, I don't understand your complaint. Every product I can think of is a different price in different countries, or even between different shop sin the same country. Estonian prices on consumer goods are often 50-100% more than in the US, for example. Please here literally do fly to the US to go shopping and save. This is nothing new.

What do you mean you don't understand? I know exactly what I will be paying when I import from Switzerland when I play it by all applying rules and it is by no means 5K in euros. So unless you know what that amount exactly is don't come with some vague examples.

[ynp]

I have the experience of buying directly from Sinar in Switzerland. For me it is sometimes easier to fly to Zurich and take a train to the factory  than wait for the delivery and custom clearance here in Russia. I do not see any difference in announced prices from Thierry and the Russian Prices if we apply the customs duty to the price. I do not have any problems with my Russian dealer (SBF-Moscow) because I cannot afford to travel to Switzerland too often and all the small items I prefer to buy locally.  A trip to the factory for servicing my equipment worth every rouble I pay for the air fare, I have access to the knowledge and free advice. People at the factory are always  very helpful and friendly.
It is a known here that the Russian dealer's mark up is in the area of 20 % or a bit  less.
Yevgeny

[thsinar]

With all due respect, Dustback, it seems that you misunderstood my reply: the distributors are obliged to handle warranty and servicing issues, and they usually do it well. No need to get upset.
Now if you want, you can also come to the factory and deal directly, but my guess is that it would not make things faster nor better.

The world has changed and many photographers are traveling a lot to get their jobs done, to other countries and continents: I believe that everybody can/should be happy to know that he can contact the local Sinar distributor and get help there. In this case, the "affected" distributor did not make the deal either.

You seem to misunderstand again about EU. I don't know the EU commerce laws, nor do I know about free traffic of labour and goods, but Switzerland is not part of the EU, not yet at least, and as such things might be a little different than you think it to be. Anyway, I say it again: any distributor has the right to sell to a customer coming to visit him, any customer has the right to come to the Sinar factory and buy from there, BUT we Sinar are not allowed to ship in another country. There are no arrangements or whatsoever, like you imply it, nor is there any unfair competition. This might (I say might) change in the future, but this is how it is currently. Period.

Also, nobody can stop you from the existing Sinar online shops, like from our German distributor.

Best regards,
Thierry

That is ridiculous! If I buy from the factory directly I should go to the factory again for warranty & service. I would not trust a dealer to handle my stuff properly when he is not allowed to make money of it.  So I cannot contact the factory, the party I bought the back from in the first place, talk over the issue, get a RMA number if needed and ship the item to the factory??  

From the way it is described this arrangement appears to be in conflict with EU laws about free traffic of labour and goods as well as regulation about unfair competition. Especially when other dealers in the EU are not allowed to sell to citizens of other EU countries.

Anyway. When stepping over these kind of things the way this is described and what is happening with the pricing of Sinar products it does not instill any trust in me. Which I think is a damn shame since I do believe the Sinar products are of high quality.

[thsinar]

Dear Kumar,

when I say "the distributors are obliged to handle warranty and servicing issues", then it means exactly this. Sorry for not having put the word "international", but it seemed clear to me.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thanks for clarifying that, Graham. So it's an international warranty, not country-specific. That wasn't very clear from Thierry's reply.

Cheers,
Kumar

[thsinar]

Thanks Graham, that's right. And I invite everybody having improvement suggestions to this particular issue to send them directly to Sinar: they will be forwarded to the management, and if there are enough showing that a wrong model is being used, then I guess it will changed. Up to now it has proven to work this way quite well.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.

[thsinar]

Again Dustback,

We cannot dictate and local specificities make it that such differences can be justified and logical, not everywhere, granted. In the case you have the feeling that a substantial and not justified premium is added, then you should make use of these EU laws, or use the opportunity to buy from the factory, or buy via online shops like implemented in Germany.

This will give the right pressure to those distributors.

Best regards,
Thierry

Again. Lets not take this into consideration and just look at what really is happening. I see a manufacturer posting a great discounted offer. Dealers in several different locations apparently ignore this and add some substantial apparently random numbers.

Who can explain me why I can get a Sinar 75 for appr. 17K in Switzerland but have to pay appr. 22K if I buy it locally? What am I paying 5K extra for?

[Dustbak]

With all due respect, Dustback, it seems that you misunderstood my reply: the distributors are obliged to handle warranty and servicing issues, and they usually do it well. No need to get upset.
Now if you want, you can also come to the factory and deal directly, but my guess is that it would not make things faster nor better.

The world has changed and many photographers are traveling a lot to get their jobs done, to other countries and continents: I believe that everybody can/should be happy to know that he can contact the local Sinar distributor and get help there. In this case, the "affected" distributor did not make the deal either.

You seem to misunderstand again about EU. I don't know the EU commerce laws, nor do I know about free traffic of labour and goods, but Switzerland is not part of the EU, not yet at least, and as such things might be a little different than you think it to be. Anyway, I say it again: any distributor has the right to sell to a customer coming to visit him, any customer has the right to come to the Sinar factory and buy from there, BUT we Sinar are not allowed to ship in another country. There are no arrangements or whatsoever, like you imply it, nor is there any unfair competition. This might (I say might) change in the future, but this is how it is currently. Period.

Also, nobody can stop you from the existing Sinar online shops, like from our German distributor.

Best regards,
Thierry

See my previous email where I agree that Swiss indeed is no part of the EU. I don't know where you get the 'again' from maybe you can explain to me where I made a previous mistake about the EU?. I agree with you that any distributor has the right to sell to me if I ask for it. Somehow not all the distributors seem to feel that way judging by the email I received last year from your French distributor denying to give me a price quote.

Sorry... it this offends you but my experiences with 'exploring how & where to buy Sinar'  have not been a great joy. This latest thing with greatly varying prices does not give me a good feeling.

I find it peculiar that when people are making remarks of these things, the reaction most of the time is that we see things wrong etc..

Sorry... to me it seems strange these kind of unexplainable price differences. Sofar this question remains unanswered.

I have made complains in the past with the EU. Today I vote with my wallet.

[thsinar]

Dear Dustback,

may I kindly ask you to stop implying that there is/are arrangement(s)? You have no right to do so and have no idea of how things work.

To answer your question again: what you are paying more in some cases are import taxes and duties, freight costs, customs storage & handling, clearance taxes, forex buffers, etc ...
In China, if the distributor does not use the "grey import" channel, and does it according to local laws, like the Sinar distributor, you pay at least 27% on the imported goods value, due all to import taxes and duties, in India it is even worse (70% currently, a few years back it was 540%), in other countries you don't have any taxes applied.

I do not wish to enter in any debate about what I can say or not say: this is out of context and kind of threatening or implying that I am hiding things. You can always contact Sinar's CEO directly, it is not forbidden. It might take some time to get an answer, but you will get it, being it through me or himself, but certainly not online.

Best regards,
Thierry

Very well, in that case there is already some part reserved for that arrangement in the prices Thierry mentioned. Makes me even wonder more what I am paying extra for over here?

I totally agree that International warranty is the way to go but in that case there should also be a possibility to harmonize pricing Internationally which doesn't mean it gets the same every place but you weed out differences that should not be there.

Sure, Thierry cannot speak about every management decision of Sinar but I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about. He is here as a company representative so if I have a question regarding anything Sinar I will ask him first. Unless the Sinar CEO comes online I might ask him first

[Gigi]

There seem to be a few things under discussion here - so lets try to keep them straight:

Sinar has listed some revised and attractive pricing. This may be a combination of "one time specials" and a general revision in prices. Some distributors or vendors haven't yet picked up the revised Sinar pricing in their price information. This is in part due to delay, confusion perhaps, and possibly an unwillingness to revise their pricing. (even the German on-line vendor hadn't picked up the latest pricing, last I looked).

And now the messy issue of differential pricing - by vendor, and in this case, by country. Ideally, everyone would have the same price everywhere, but seems not to be the case. Added to this confusion is some complications due to recent currency fluctuations.This makes it necessary for a thoughtful shopper to look around and see from where they want to buy. Certainly, local distributors would like to protect their turf, to be sure. Nothing unusual there. One can imagine some interesting distributor:manufacturer discussions about pricing, if one were to be but a fly on that wall.

Sinar's response (if I understand Thierry correctly) seems reasonable: that you can buy direct in Switzerland, or buy from other in other countries, but service is international and not limited by where the good was purchased. Thank goodness there is an opening in the sales/distribution wall. This situation, while not ideal, does seem workable.

Geoff

[Dustbak]

Dear Dustback,

may I kindly ask you to stop implying that there is/are arrangement(s)? You have no right to do so and have no idea of how things work.

To answer your question again: what you are paying more in some cases are import taxes and duties, freight costs, customs storage & handling, clearance taxes, forex buffers, etc ...
In China, if the distributor does not use the "grey import" channel, and does it according to local laws, like the Sinar distributor, you pay at least 27% on the imported goods value, due all to import taxes and duties, in India it is even worse (70% currently, a few years back it was 540%), in other countries you don't have any taxes applied.

I do not wish to enter in any debate about what I can say or not say: this is out of context and kind of threatening or implying that I am hiding things. You can always contact Sinar's CEO directly, it is not forbidden. It might take some time to get an answer, but you will get it, being it through me or himself, but certainly not online.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

What do you think I am implying?? I am telling you about my own findings when I asked around for price quotes on Sinar products and I tell you how some distributors reacted. There is nothing implied to that. Sure you can choose to not believe me or ignore me that is fine by me.

Import tarifs for digital back in the Netherlands are:Import duty 0%, VAT is 19%  but deductible for companies (and the prices I mentioned are all excl. VAT) there are no other duties or costs other than shipping!! I know how import works. I don't live in China and I am not talking about Chinese/Swiss differences.

I talk about a 5K euro price difference between Switzerland and the Netherlands (on the Sinar 75). Which cannot be explained by import duty or VAT or shipping. My question what other thing is there is not unreasonable since I happen to have imported quite some stuff over the years including things from Switzerland.

I have never ever stated that you are hiding or not telling things. You are obviously either not reading correctly what I write or don't understand what I do write. The only thing I did write and let me say it again and maybe this time it will be clear to you.

You have placed yourself here as a company representative. I will ask you about Sinar stuff first. So you are person number 1 to ask questions unless your CEO is online active on this forum as well. I might ask him first. Now this does not say at all that I believe you are hiding stuff. This was merely a reaction to the statement Graham gave that you might not be able to say everything about Sinar. If that is the case I still say I will ask you first to give you the chance to react. Only if you cannot and I can contact your CEO I maybe would ask him first, he is certainly the person that is allowed to say the most (in most cases).

Now read this again until you see that it by no means meant any harm and please stop acting like I did have this intention.

If you ask me whether I believe your dealers are overcharging.Yes, I do believe they are overcharging here if the MSRP's you quoted are correct and I would not buy from them. You see this is my personal opinion which might not be the truth but sofar nobody has come with a good explanation why this particular price difference exists besides mentioning stuff I can easily calculate myself and simply is not correct.

[thsinar]

more clearly: you did correct Swiss not being part of the EU, I was simply too fast and thats' fine if you understood it. I was not saying "again" concerning the EU, but simply mentioning that you have misunderstood another point.

See my previous email where I agree that Swiss indeed is no part of the EU. I don't know where you get the 'again' from maybe you can explain to me where I made a previous mistake about the EU?.

I agree with you that any distributor has the right to sell to me if I ask for it. Somehow not all the distributors seem to feel that way judging by the email I received last year from your French distributor denying to give me a price quote.

Make pressure to them.

Sorry... it this offends you but my experiences with 'exploring how & where to buy Sinar'  have not been a great joy. This latest thing with greatly varying prices does not give me a good feeling.

It does not offend me at all, but I need to correct wrong information or believes. In case of prices there are many (wrong information and believes): no, most of the distributors are not dishonest or charging unjustified premiums, most of the price differences can be explained and understood in a logical way, and such differences exist in all fields.

Best regards,
Thierry

[thsinar]

It seems to me that you are implying, 2 times, that there are arrangements. I do not know what you wish to say with this exactly probably price arrangements, but I on my side want to deny it. Or then I did misunderstand you.

By saying "I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about" you imply that there are things which can't be said, by extrapolating it a bit further, that things are hidden. I simply wish that there is no confusion and stand corrected if you didn't imply any such.

I know that VAT is deductible and that most prices are given w/o. My point was a general one, like yours. Now if we want to speak specifically about your country, the Netherlands, may be you are right, may be this difference is not justified, I cannot judge this. But you are able to make pressure and have the possibilities  to do so.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

What do you think I am implying??

Import tarifs for digital back in the Netherlands are:Import duty 0%, VAT is 19%  but deductible for companies (and the prices I mentioned are all excl. VAT) there are no other duties or costs other than shipping!! I know how import works. I don't live in China and I am not talking about Chinese differences.

I talk about a 5K euro price difference between Switzerland and the Netherlands. Which cannot be explained by import duty or VAT or shipping. My question what other thing is there is not unreasonable since I happen to have imported quite some stuff over the years including things from Switzerland.

I have never ever stated that you are hiding or not telling things. You are obviously either not reading correctly what I write or don't understand what I do write.

[Dustbak]

But you are able to make pressure and have the possibilities  to do so.

Best regards,
Thierry

I am and I will.