Price Reduction Sinar Hy6 - 54 & Sinar Hy6 - 75 Camera Systems & Backs

[BJNY]

After talking about this with MAC group, they passed along this document from Elinchrom - Skyport Sync Document.  A fellow friend / photographer has the microsyncs and those have similar limitations.

The Mamiya 645AFDII is not listed on that page; in my experience it had to be set at 1/90th.  I do not know if Pocket Wizards have similar set-up delay or not.  The Word .doc is from July 2007, so it's possible Elinchrom has made improvements between now and then.

Elinchrom is distributed by BogenImaging, whereas PocketWizard is distributed by MAC group.

I set the Mamiya 645 to 1/90th as well, even with PocketWizards or sync cables.  I attribute the "shading' to shutter bounce.

[John_Black]

Sorry, yes Bogen.  It's not shutter bounce.  If it were bounce the same result would be evident when using cables (or a Canon Speedlight) instead of a wireless interface.  The Skyports use a digital protocol to ensure that adjacent frequencies & other traffic on same frequency (such as wireless home phones, etc) do not induce a false trigger.  The transmitter sends a signal to open the channel with the receiver, then the message is sent.  The delay is imperceptible to us, but a couple micro-seconds is just enough to catch the curtain as it closes.  I tried the second curtain option, but saw no improvement on either the 1Ds2 (tried two 1Ds2's and a 5D; 5D has an even slower X-sync) or AFDII.  I haven't tried 1/200th or 1/250th on the 1Ds3.

[PeterA]

All very interesting you guys - but the integrity of the original thread is now totally lost.

[AndreNapier]

Another vote for the Skyports (RX set-up).  I've used them for well over a year now and have not had to replace the battery on the transmitter yet.  They are used every week and probably have around 10,000 clicks.  The receivers just plug into the back of the RX unit monolight, so it's very clean with no added wires.  

The only downside is that you may not be able to reach the maximum sync-speed.  With the 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 I shoot at 1/160th because some shading occurs along the lower 1/2 of the frame at 1/200 and is very noticeable at 1/250th.  After talking about this with MAC group, they passed along this document from Elinchrom - Skyport Sync Document.  A fellow friend / photographer has the microsyncs and those have similar limitations.

The Mamiya 645AFDII is not listed on that page; in my experience it had to be set at 1/90th.  I do not know if Pocket Wizards have similar set-up delay or not.  The Word .doc is from July 2007, so it's possible Elinchrom has made improvements between now and then.

I use Skyport on Rz at 1/400 with both Micro and Ranger Rx packs without any problems. The listed sych speed is 1/1000.
Andre

[Dustbak]

I asked for a price quote/list for the Sinar backs and equipment today for a friend of mine that is interested in going MF. I got presented prices that were much higher. Anything from 10% up to about 30% higher. These things are typically the reasons why people don't trust MF dealers anymore .

[Guy Mancuso]

Elinchrom is distributed by BogenImaging, whereas PocketWizard is distributed by MAC group.

I set the Mamiya 645 to 1/90th as well, even with PocketWizards or sync cables.  I attribute the "shading' to shutter bounce.

Billy being announced today or tomorrow 1.3 that solves some flash sync issues. Today i have to switch to rear shutter from 1/8 th of a second or longer or it will not sync with camera this has been fixed( Skyport or Poket Wizard it is a camera issue). We should know this very soon when the first folks get to upgrade to it or a data sheet comes out on what has been updated. I can't send mine in for over a week because of shooting jobs, it has to be sent to NY for the firmware update on a very short turn on the return. Some of the shading may well be fixed also with this update. There also some other good updates as well and will wait until it is publicly announced. I know wrong thread for this but you asked

[thsinar]

Yes, I can comment.

The recently dropped prices are recommended prices to our distributors and those used in Switzerland or when one buys from Sinar factory.
There are many different countries, with different distribution organizations, some with dealers, like in the USA, some without dealers. Some of our distributors can and do work with our recommended prices, some are not, because their distribution structure and local specificities do not allow them. It is obvious, that countries with a dealer network have to work with higher margins.

to this, there are several other costs for a distributor to consider when importing goods:

- foreign exchange
- tax, import, custom duties
- storage, customs clearance, handling and delivery by custom agent
- quarantine charges
- freight costs

Those costs represent the so-called "landed costs", and can represent in some countries a non-neglectful amount. As an example and because I know these 2 countries well, the landed costs represent over 20% in Australia, and over 27% in China.

I can however not speak about these costs for the USA, other than there is a dealer network needing to have their own margin to survive.

Best regards,
Thierry

I noticed this too. It looks like some dealers/importers decided to keep the lower prices to themselves to increase their own profit. They must think there is no such thing as the internet where information travels with light speed. Thierry, would you like to comment on this specific case? Aren't importers bound to at least mention MSRP's from the factory? The price cuts you recently announced are not reflected in any of the prices that I could find lately. I don't think that was Sinar's goal when they tried to price more competitive.

[thsinar]

You're welcome.

That's what we did and continuously do.

Thierry

(or better: maybe they could tell their distributors to fairly distribute price reductions as well)?

[Gigi]

FWIW, a Sinar dealer in Great Britain is very closely aligned to the Sinar prices FOB Switzerland. Good for them. Maybe they'll get more business that way.

[EricWHiss]

Is there a reason why a person from say California can't order direct from the Factory?

[thsinar]

Dear Eric,

Everybody is allowed to buy from factory, but goods have to be picked up at the Sinar factory and paid upon delivery. Sinar cannot ship out of Switzerland directly to customers.

Best regards,
Thierry

Is there a reason why a person from say California can't order direct from the Factory?

[Kumar]

On Sinar's site, it says that SinarBron is a subsidiary of Sinar AG, not an independent distributor...

Kumar

[thsinar]

It is a Sinar, Broncolor and Foba subsidary!

Thierry

On Sinar's site, it says that SinarBron is a subsidiary of Sinar AG, not an independent distributor...

Kumar

[Dustbak]

Dear Eric,

Everybody is allowed to buy from factory, but goods have to be picked up at the Sinar factory and paid upon delivery. Sinar cannot ship out of Switzerland directly to customers.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

Why isn't Sinar able to ship out of Switzerland directly to customers? I am sure nobody would mind paying for insured shipping charges and local taxes, which are not there in the EU BTW (expect around 140 euros for insured shipping up the 16K euros). For most of us it is even more interesting to buy somewhere else in the EU because we don't have to pay the VAT so buying elsewhere in the EU doesn't have an impact on cashflow.

Prices over here should not be higher than the prices mentioned by you (Sinar) as retail prices. Apparently it costs the dealer a lot more to import your gear from Switzerland than it would cost me.

This type of behaviour really pisses me of and is one of the main reasons I wish to do only business with companies that have no objection to deal directly with their customer if the customer so wishes.

So, if you live over here you can only buy Sinar equipment from a dealer that is holding back on a price cut and ripping of its clients or you have to drive to Switzerland yourself because Sinar has decided to protect these type of dealers? Am I understanding this correctly?

[thsinar]

Dear Dustback,

As said, ANYBODY can buy from Sinar factory, but the goods have to be picked up and paid upon delivery. And I repeat it, we are not allowed, due to exclusive distribution contracts, to ship outside of the Swiss territory. There is nothing really to be pissed off and no special bad behaviour of doing so. If you know somebody in Switzerland, it can also be done this way.

Edited for ADDENDUM: and I should add, that if you (we) get the authorization from the local distributor for us to ship you goods from our factory, then we are pleased to do it.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

Why isn't Sinar able to ship out of Switzerland directly to customers? I am sure nobody would mind paying for insured shipping charges and local taxes, which are not there in the EU BTW (expect around 140 euros for insured shipping up the 16K euros). For most of us it is even more interesting to buy somewhere else in the EU because we don't have to pay the VAT so buying elsewhere in the EU doesn't have an impact on cashflow.

Prices over here should not be higher than the prices mentioned by you as retail prices. Apparently it costs the dealer a lot more to import your gear from Switzerland than it would cost me.

This type of behaviour really pisses me of and is one of the main reasons I wish to do only business with companies that have no objection to deal directly with their customer if the customer so wishes.

So, if you live over here you can only buy Sinar equipment from a dealer that is holding back on a price cut and ripping of its clients or you have to drive to Switzerland yourself because Sinar has decided to protect these type of dealers? Am I understanding this correctly?

[Kumar]

Thierry,

Why isn't Sinar able to ship out of Switzerland directly to customers? I am sure nobody would mind paying for insured shipping charges and local taxes, which are not there in the EU BW.

Prices over here should not be higher than the prices mentioned by you as retail prices. Apparently it costs the dealer a lot more to important your gear from Switzerland than it would cost me.

This type of behaviour really pisses me of and is one of the main reasons I wish to do only business with companies that have no objection to deal directly with their customer if the customer so wishes.

I guess that's to help the distributors protect their territory. I'm baffled by the pricing here in Japan. One dealer lists the 54LV at 1,898,000 yen (15,116 Euro or 19,434 USD)!!! And that's the special "Final Campaign" price! Import duties aren't particularly high, and the consumption tax is only 5%. This means that either there's a hell of money in the business, or there's enormous room for bargaining. And I'm assuming when SinarAG says the "recommended price" is 6,000 Euro, it takes the distributor's margin into account. Also, if SinarBron is a subsidiary, pricing should have been better in the US, no? I like Canon's pricing policy. The 5DMkII is slated to sell for 268,000 yen ~ USD 2740, about the same as US pricing. No secret handshake required!

Cheers,
Kumar

[Kumar]

Dear Dustback,

As said, ANYBODY can buy from Sinar factory, but the goods have to be picked up and paid upon delivery. And I repeat it, we are not allowed, due to exclusive distribution contracts, to ship outside of the Swiss territory. There is nothing really to be pissed off and no special bad behaviour of doing so. If you know somebody in Switzerland, it can also be done this way.

Best regards,
Thierry

In that case, would support/repair issues be handled by Switzerland, or say you, as representative for Asia? Similarly, US customers could go to SinarBron? Or would we still have to go through the distributor, who's naturally pissed off at losing the margin?

Cheers,
Kumar

[thsinar]

They are obliged, by contract, to handle warranty and servicing issues.

Thierry

In that case, would support/repair issues be handled by Switzerland, or say you, as representative for Asia? Similarly, US customers could go to SinarBron? Or would we still have to go through the distributor, who's naturally pissed off at losing the margin?

Cheers,
Kumar

[Kumar]

They are obliged, by contract, to handle warranty and servicing issues.

Thierry

Well, that sounds good. So I could buy a back from Switzerland, and the distributor here is obliged to deal with  warranty and service issues. Perhaps most Sinar users here get their stuff this way! I can't see them paying these insane prices when they could buy TWO backs AND have a nice vacation in Switzerland for the same amount of money.
Cheers,
Kumar

[Dustbak]

They are obliged, by contract, to handle warranty and servicing issues.

Thierry

That is ridiculous! If I buy from the factory directly I should go to the factory again for warranty & service. I would not trust a dealer to handle my stuff properly when he is not allowed to make money of it.  So I cannot contact the factory, the party I bought the back from in the first place, talk over the issue, get a RMA number if needed and ship the item to the factory??  

From the way it is described this arrangement appears to be in conflict with EU laws about free traffic of labour and goods as well as regulation about unfair competition. Especially when other dealers in the EU are not allowed to sell to citizens of other EU countries.

Anyway. When stepping over these kind of things the way this is described and what is happening with the pricing of Sinar products it does not instill any trust in me. Which I think is a damn shame since I do believe the Sinar products are of high quality.