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Author Topic: Ideal MF system for Location/Portable Advertising  (Read 120030 times)

Mort54

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« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2008, 01:06:29 pm »

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I forgot to shoot the D3 at ASA 1600, so my test was a dud. But I did shoot it at 6400. Tonight, I opened two files -- the 1ds3 at 1600, and the D3 at 6400, and the D3 was noisy at 6400 but not bad, and the Canon was shockingly good at 1600; far better than Mr Russell's example of the 1ds2.
Really!! I find it's no contest. I shot side by side with a friend - him with his 1DsIII and me with my D3. We compared my shots at ISO 3200 with his at ISO 1600 and we both agreed the D3 files were a lot less noisy, and just as sharp (maybe even a little sharper).

As for the LCD, he was drooling over the D3.
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2008, 01:07:32 pm »

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Well I wouldn't. Not for a location advertising shoot. And that is the point of this topic. Right now if the 1Ds III is suitable for shooting the job (in in most of my cases it is more than) then I am not going to add the pain as the current MF systems do. Though the Canon does have a few short comings, some of which can be overcome in one way or another, the system allows me to concentrate on the important part: the images that need to be made.

Ken
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And I respect that too -- use the best tool for YOU to do YOUR job...   But at the same time, you should respect it isn't necessarily going to be the best tool for others to do theirs.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 01:11:29 pm by Jack Flesher »
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Anthony R

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« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2008, 01:38:30 pm »

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And I respect that too -- use the best tool for YOU to do YOUR job...   But at the same time, you should respect it isn't necessarily going to be the best tool for others to do theirs.

Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I concur. It's about what you do, your clients needs in your location.

I'll add that a 1DS3 would NEVER fly in NYC for advertising and I've never seen one used for any serious ad work. No art buyer at any agency that I work with would accept less than a MFDB*

Perhaps the term 'advertising' needs to be clarified here. If you are calling catalogue work, stock, look books and the like advertising then ok. You want to talk campaign, in-store display, billboard, magazine spread well then...

*this is my experience and I'm sure there may be instances that differ, but my experience tells me 90% of the time at least this to be true.

It's about full potential, multi-purposing and the ability to tweak and capture as much detail as possible.

The DS3 is a great camera, don't get me wrong.
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TMARK

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« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2008, 02:43:07 pm »

Read this regarding the current market:  http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2014

And this is the market that is greeted by $40k plus digital backs?
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gwhitf

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« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2008, 02:50:56 pm »

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It's about full potential, multi-purposing and the ability to tweak and capture as much detail as possible.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Anthony,

I agree about this, in theory. But let's not forget something that I discovered when testing the two cameras. It's about the difference in optics between 35 and 645:

Say that your goal was to shoot a car interior. Or a room interior. And say that the goal of the shot was to capture "as much detail as possible". While there will be more inherent information in the P45+ file, than say a 1ds3 file, you have optics that are working against you in 645, due to less inherent depth of field. And sometimes, just stopping down the lens is not going to get you razor sharpness; it'll get you sorta-sharpness, but not tack-sharpness.

When I considered buying the 1ds3, I set up a silly still life shot at my place. It was a bunch of items of varying color and texture. I shot the P30+, and then framed up the same shot, on the same tripod, with the 1ds3. Same vantage point. Strobe, at something like f11 or 16. There were a couple of items in the foreground of this still life shot -- with the 1ds3 those items were tack sharp, but with the P30+, those items were soft. And there is "good soft" and "bad soft", as you know. One looks like a mistake, and the other looks cool. When it's just barely out of focus, it looks like a mistake. That's how the P30+ file looked, due to it being medium format, and carrying less focus deep into the frame.

I took both files, and I rezzed up the 1ds3 file to the same width as the P30+ file, and then I made two 16x20s, one from each file. Since the 1ds3 file was focused through and through, it appeared "better" than the P30+ file, due to carrying focus deeper into the frame. And even holding the prints up very close, the 1ds3 definitely held its own next to the P30+.

So I'd think for that car interior photographer, or that room photographer, where he wants as much sharp as possible, the "lack of 3D effect" of 35 might just work for you.

But I understand too, in NYC, you've got to show up with the Big Guns, or else you're not a Big Gun. Perception alone means a lot. Maybe even more than reality. But again, it all comes back to your own style; whether you're a ShallowFocus Guy, or a EverythingSharp Guy. (Or, whether you're willing to show up with a P45+ and maybe twelve Profoto packs, in order to carry focus front to back).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 04:33:02 pm by gwhitf »
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BJL

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« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2008, 03:24:38 pm »

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This smells like a perfect application for Mr. Russell's side business of manufacturing stickers. If you call it "full frame" then it is full frame, right?
... call it "Full Frame 540", instead of "cropped 645"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I expected that someone would object, so here is my question:
No one disuptes that 36x24mm sensor combined with lenses, viewfinders and such designed for 36x24mm format is "Full Frame", and my imagined system is in a larger format than that, so

Please give me your definition of "Full Frame" which includes 36x24mm format sensors with matching lenses, viewfinders and such, but excludes a system using a larger format like 44x33mm or 48x36mm, also with a full matching system of lenses, viewfinders and such.

[Edit] More specifically, since you raised the idea of calling it "cropped 645", what is cropped if the lens system, viewfinder and such are all matched to the sensor format, anymore than a 35mm format system is "heavily cropped 645"?

Note: Hasselblad's "Full Frame 48mm" does not meet my criteria; it lacks important things like an appropriate normal lens, of 60 to 70 mm.

Hint: you cannot use a criterion like "image sensor diagonal fills the image circle of all lenses", because probably no SLR system satisfies that: telephoto lenses often have image circles substantially larger than the format for which they are designed. Some "excess" image circle is common and irrelevant. (Telephoto optical designs typically have angular coverage of about 50º, about as for a "normal" lens, though lens barrels may vignette this considerably.)

Perhaps the concept is that Full Frame means reproducing a well established format for film-based camera systems.

That goal does have its place, in particular for owners of substantial lens collections for some such film format, so any new format has a disadvantage there. But when the extra cost of the larger sensor exceeds the cost of the new lenses needed to go with the new format, it might be an inadequate reason to stay with the old format.


P. S. I do not particularly expect that any MF system will in fact offer my imagined 44x33mm or 48x36mm format lens additions, though Pentax did plan on adding a 55mm normal lens for its planned 44x33mm format DMF body.

But if the extra cost of full 645 sensors puts off a sufficient number of potential customers and to many of them are changing to 35mm, maybe action will be taken on a "compromise" format.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 03:50:29 pm by BJL »
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ruraltrekker

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« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2008, 04:19:10 pm »

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I'll add that a 1DS3 would NEVER fly in NYC for advertising and I've never seen one used for any serious ad work.
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Well, that is NYC - the place where they made dye transfers & retouched them in the good old days and the images were soft like a fresh poo.  

I am shooting national work for AT&T, Uniroyal, two different states Blue Cross/Blue Shield just to name a few examples. All of this with either a 1DsII or III. I am sorry that your marketplace demands more than what may be needed. To me it is a preception that someone has let get out of control. The old "your not a real photographer unless you have..." BS.

I think the point of this thread is that there is still the pain with MF (the tech for example) that the OP is expressing shooting advertising - on location. From my experince (and I have it) the location shooter is a less common in the NYC area. Yes, there are some but the majority of shooters are in the studio - where shooting with MF is going to be a bit easier.  


Ken
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pss

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« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2008, 04:51:48 pm »

most of the requirements of this list will be met by the P65...this is the first ime in years that i have the feeling somebody actually listened....the concept of cramming 60mipx in there and then letting the photographer decide how to use them is great imo....i don't think i would ever shoot that thing at anything more then 30 mpix....which is the perfect size, really still a little big, but tons of room for cropping....this could be like those fuji DSLR which use double the pixels to get higher DR...and if this P65 gets 12.5!!!! at 60mpix, maybe it will get 13.5 at 30mpix? insanity! and that should really work wonders for clean high iso as well.....as for the price....why on earth should it be any cheaper? does anyone here really think that phase is rubbing their hands thinking they will make a killing?

the whole screen debate is a little funny...yes the D3 screen is amazing....still is nowhere near a polaroid...sizewise and still can't sit on the table next to the others for the rest of the day....(to play around with, see the progress, play with the layout...just like in the old days...).....
tethered shooting is a blessing and a curse....great to know when you got the shot, but we all know there could be that better one with the unexpected something, the one you used to shoot just one more roll for....
the curse....is the huddling and the microdetail before post that nobody really should see and that can scare the hell out of less informed clients....

leaf had a bluetooth solution years ago....people just loved it....a jpeg popping up with every shot on a HP pda...i think(as far as i remember) you could also browse the whole shoot (no cards, just the imagebank, which i would not have a problem with either....)
i would love to have a wifi solution like that with previews popping into an iphone or ipod touch....that would be the polaroid of the digital age...

i also feel that 2 card chambers or at least shooting to card AND HD (when shooting tethered) should be standard....instant back-up...

the only things i want out of a MF system are: BRIGHT and LARGE viewfinder..even focusing the P30 is tough wide open....bigger sensor and more pixels does not make it easier....don't care about AF much, would not use it anyway but would like AF assist...
rotating back....rotating back...rotating back...
great glass....
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gwhitf

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« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2008, 05:05:55 pm »

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the only things i want out of a MF system are: BRIGHT and LARGE viewfinder..even focusing the P30 is tough wide open....bigger sensor and more pixels does not make it easier....don't care about AF much, would not use it anyway but would like AF assist...
rotating back....rotating back...rotating back...
great glass....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I shot a job last week in New York with my 1ds3, (but don't tell Anthony). I had actually planned on shooting color neg in my Hasselblad, but it got too complicated. (That's another conversation). But at the end, I shot one roll of 220 for me. When I picked up that Hasselblad 203 and looked through that huge gorgeous viewfinder, it was like that scene in Wizard of Oz, where it turns from B/W to color. My jaw actually dropped to the ground, it was that good.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2008, 05:58:08 pm »

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I concur. It's about what you do, your clients needs in your location.

I'll add that a 1DS3 would NEVER fly in NYC for advertising and I've never seen one used for any serious ad work. No art buyer at any agency that I work with would accept less than a MFDB*

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I love the word NEVER.  

I've heard that a lot.  I will never stop shooting film, I will never use anything but an RZ, I will never show an inkjet print.  Yea, I love the word Never.

This is a public forum so a lot of this is difficult to address (and risky).

Anthony, I assume your in New York and yes NY is the center of the world when it comes to photography, but it's not the only place high media value, high cost, high quality photography is produced, though few people in our industry would believe that.

But your right, NY production is usually big, with white walls, 4 huge Breezies,  two digital techs and a digital back hooked to the multiple cart 'o rocks.

You also have to remember that NY is the epicenter of photographers that very reluctantly moved from film and don't really want to know about digital, so the obvious request when hiring a digital company for a big project is "give me the "BIG" camera, becuase truth be told, they don't know the difference between a 20, 30, 40 or 60mpx file and think digital manipulation is the second installment payment on the Imac they bought at the Apple Store in Soho.

We all play this game and I personally own a lot of cameras and on a large job all of them come out on a table.  Sometimes I use them all, sometimes just one, but the site of two large folding tables covered with over a  hundred grand worth of equipment does make a client feel they're getting their money's worth . . . same with the two tech stations, the multiple monitors and all the busy little bees running out of the studio to get those special lattes and cupcakes.

That's just part of the biz, so I accept it.

Then again I can't count the number of times I've started a project tethered to one of the tech stations, (sorry, cart o' rocks), hooked by my 16' string and ended up shooting 50% of the job with a smaller camera.

Usually when that happens I know there is about a 85% chance the client will pick an image from the smaller camera.

Don't misunderstand this, as some of my best (and lately most noticed) work has come from the medium format cameras, nobody should fool themselves into  thinking big work can't be done with a smaller camera.

After all Annie shoots the Queen with a Canon and a zoom.  That's pretty big.

Anyway today I went by a camera dealer and for the first time held a 1ds3.

What an amazing viewfinder.  

So could I shoot all of my work with a Canon?

I think I'll answer this one off line, but I do have a few questions for Anthony and everyone here.

How many digital backs do you own?

How many have you owned.

How often do you rent them?

Ah yes, the target market.

JR
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 06:00:54 pm by James R Russell »
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BrianSmith

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« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2008, 06:11:32 pm »

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Anyone that is curious about the effect that employing a Digital Tech on Location, and the (negative) effect that it has on your shooting, try this:

1. Go to Home Depot.
2. Buy a wheelbarrow.
3. Fill it with rocks. Heavy rocks. About as heavy as a G5.
4. Tie a 16 foot string from your camera to the wheelbarrow.
5. Hire a guy (at about $1500 a day) to push the wheelbarrow around with you all day, on location.
6. (Optional, for effect): While at Home Depot, rent a really loud Honda generator and put it in the wheelbarrow, on top of the rock pile.
7. Take your camera, and your new "assistant", and go out on location, and do about ten shots, in ten different locations. Wherever you go, he goes with you. NEVER UNTIE THE STRING, except at lunch.
8. Come home. See how you feel.
9. Imagine that is now your professional digital life. You and your new buddy, and his cute little wheelbarrow.
10. Or, just buy a Nikon D3, and trust your LCD.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. And really really true...

Gwitf, you really should meet my friend Tark from Nashville. You can almost always find him in the Liquid Nails section of the Home Depot...

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Mr Russell is correct -- if you're going to publish a Road Map, then don't complain about the blowback when it doesn't come to fruition.
Mister Russel always right. Though he hates when you calls him Mister...
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James R Russell

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« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2008, 06:33:00 pm »

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That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. And really really true...

Gwitf, you really should meet my friend Tark from Nashville. You can almost always find him in the Liquid Nails section of the Home Depot...
Mister Russel always right. Though he hates when you calls him Mister...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I would prefer if you call me Mister President, (though wait a few months).

JR
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BrianSmith

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« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2008, 06:33:14 pm »

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If, as TMark pointed out, Nikon and Mamiya are cousins, and Mitsubishi decides they should play together, we might see a NikoPhamiya soon...

Cheers,
Kumar
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Kumar,

Rent "Deliverance."

Cousins hooking up isn't always a good thing.

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snickgrr

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« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2008, 06:41:29 pm »

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Read this regarding the current market:  http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2014

And this is the market that is greeted by $40k plus digital backs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


True, true.

My jaw tightened on his thoughts about Web usage pricing being less than usage in say the print arena.  That practice of charging less for Web usage started way back in the day when the Web was  at it's V.5 stage.  And it continues today.

I remember being in negotiations with an agency about an estimate I had sent over and me questioning why the same photo destined for the web was worth pennies on the dollar compared to print.  She shrugged and said "It's a banner Ad, it means nothing".  Now when brick and mortar and print are shrinking and the Web is the place for commerce, not much has changed.  Why should it when they can just pull off cheap ass stock and have it "suffice".
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 06:57:43 pm by snickgrr »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #94 on: July 18, 2008, 06:47:37 pm »

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True, true.

My jaw tightened on his thoughts about Web usage pricing being less than usage in say the print arena.  That practice of charging less for Web usage started way back in the day when the Web was  at it's V.5 stage.  And it continues today.

I remember being in negotiations with an agency about an estimate I had sent over and me questioning why the same photo destined for the web was worth pennies on the dollar compared to print.  She shrugged and said "It's a banner Ad, it means nothing".  Now when brick and mortar and print are shrinking and the Web is the place for commerce, not much has changed.  Why should it when they can just pull off cheap ass stock and have is "suffice".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


All this will change.  I am always suprised when I see a beautiful campaign and then flick on the web site and it's just e-commerce, cropped at the chin, shot on medium grey seamless.

In fact if you want to be blown away, go to your favorite mass brand U.S. website and take a look.

After about 22 seconds you will fall asleeep.

then go on thier european and Asian websites.

Wow, the difference is 9 billion percent.

JR
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Camdavidson

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« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2008, 06:51:43 pm »

I concur. It's about what you do, your clients needs in your location.

I'll add that a 1DS3 would NEVER fly in NYC for advertising and I've never seen one used for any serious ad work. No art buyer at any agency that I work with would accept less than a MFDB*

Perhaps the term 'advertising' needs to be clarified here. If you are calling catalogue work, stock, look books and the like advertising then ok. You want to talk campaign, in-store display, billboard, magazine spread well then...

*this is my experience and I'm sure there may be instances that differ, but my experience tells me 90% of the time at least this to be true.

It's about full potential, multi-purposing and the ability to tweak and capture as much detail as possible.

The DS3 is a great camera, don't get me wrong.,



Anthony

I have to respectfully disagree with you about magazine usage with the 1Ds III.  I have an eight page spread in the current Vanity Fair (August 2008, Pages 131 - 145) that were shot with the 1Ds III.

The files were processed with Brian Griffith's Raw Developer program.  One image was croped to about 2/3rd of the frame and I can see it - I don't know if the average VF reader would.

Yes, I could have shot with Medium Format, but the per shot rate on the P30 is too slow for my aerial work.  Two years ago, I shot another aerial piece for them using a 1Ds II and the images ran as opener spreads and 3/4 trucks.

VF has very high printing standards and from my experience, the 1Ds III meets the reproduction standards for the magazine.

Thank you.

Cameron
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 07:39:34 pm by Camdavidson »
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #96 on: July 18, 2008, 07:00:57 pm »

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And you know me well enough -- or at should by now -- to know that's not what I meant James...  I would rather own a P30+ than a pair of 1Ds3's 8 days a week.  In fact, I would love to find a good deal on a used P30+ just for it's advantages.  My only point was your comment -- so let's come back to it:

"...not knowing that at some point you just aren't going to see a difference in print, (any print) and unlike moving from 35mm to 8x10 the look of the image doesn't change that much because for the most part were still just shooting to the two smallest frame sizes available in professional photography."

So answer me this: IF you seriously believe what you stated in that quote, then why aren't you shooting a 1Ds3 instead of your P30+?

Cheers,
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Jack, I've come late to this thread but I suspect James was mostly referring to actual offset print output which is rarely bigger than A3. In those circumstances does a P45 really look so much better than a DS3, or a D3 or a 5D?

I was required to shoot 4x5 film for a magazine here in Oz until last year. I proved to them that a 5D will give identical results at A3 DPS and now we shoot on the Canon saving them buckets on film and allowing me to shoot far more freely. If I shot on a P45 the results would be very hard to distinguish.
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eronald

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« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2008, 07:12:14 pm »

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Anyway today I went by a camera dealer and for the first time held a 1ds3.

What an amazing viewfinder.   

JR
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Ah, you noticed the finder.

Edmund
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juicy

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« Reply #98 on: July 18, 2008, 07:41:13 pm »

What's needed as a new polaroid is electronic paper with blutooth or similar wireless.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #99 on: July 18, 2008, 07:55:35 pm »

If I wanted a better/bigger screen for my phase back I'd just buy an OQO Model 1. Plug it via firewire with the phase one portable solution that can be purchased from your dealer and there you go. Much better and much cheaper than new back.
And if you buy a 30m firewire cable you won't have your clients around your back.  

Have a nice weekend!

« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 08:00:28 pm by samuel_js »
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