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Author Topic: Ideal MF system for Location/Portable Advertising  (Read 116999 times)

John Camp

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« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 06:15:33 pm »

I have nothing to add to the camera commentary, however, I was in WalMart today, buying film, and noticed that they're selling an 8 megapixel no-brand digital camera with a zoom lens for $47, and it includes a 2.5-inch TFT LCD. So I asked myself, how much can a big LCD cost the manufacturer? $2? $3? This was $47 for an entire camera...

JC
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Plekto

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« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 06:19:04 pm »

I um... like 20th the full frame 645 option.

Using a bare minimum 2400dpi optical scan for film equivalent I get about 22MP minimum.  3200DPI equivalent would be better, though, but that raises it to 39MP.(ouch)

But this would of course be equal to film - as in throw it away and forget about it resolution.  I suspect most photographers would be thrilled with a full frame 22MP 645 model, even.
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craigwashburn

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« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 07:29:59 pm »

A 30mp fullframe 645 will still be extremely expensive.  Its not the pixels that drives the cost, its the size of the silicon in there.  It wouldn't be substantially cheaper than the P65+ (which apparently can decrease its resolution?)

Cost of a chip increases with the square of the area increased (along with some other multipliers due to extra masking complications in production).  

Cost will go down.. slightly ..  eventually.  Unfortunately cost of production with regards to physical size of a chip are nowhere near as fast decreasing as other areas of digital computing.

So you might as well just buy a P65+.
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jimgolden

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« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 07:34:16 pm »

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Shooting with a Hasselblad H3DII39 and importing into Phocus with large preview selected produces an imbedded jpeg that is 1200x900, you can then export this file almost instantaneously, it takes about 10 seconds to export 100 fast Jpegs at this size.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208749\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thats great and all, but Phocus, while stunning, has the lame requirements of say Aperture 2 years ago - latest hardware, maxed out rams, etc, etc. wont run on a macbook, barely on a Pro -  sh!t, I have to upgrade 2 towers w/ $400 of video cards and pop in some more ram just for it to run smooth in the studio...

the whole point is to not be tethered to a 17" computer all day...that can barely run the software
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paulmoorestudio

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« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2008, 09:05:29 pm »

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Not a rumor, but a fact that might interest you: Leica and Jenoptik (Sinar/Sinar backs) have signed a contract to work together more intensively on the development of new digital solutions. German link: http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-und...tik-kooperieren
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208795\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yeah, I guess we will have to just wait and see with this one, they are being very tight lipped in solms..I too would like to see this new r10 be a new format and feel they would satisfy a lot of folks who just don't need the extra megapixels.  They are a company which knows what photographers care about..optics and dr..I think they could make an ideal location/advertising camera. With their limited funds, developing a new system would seem beyond their means.. but we can hope.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2008, 10:12:09 pm »

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Instead of rehashing the same old complaints about the incompetence of manufacturers that cause you endless frustration, you could be learning how to work through your anger and frustration by using Photoshop. Really. Here's a link to illustrate...  You Suck at Photoshop_lesson_1
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Everytime new product is introduced and the resulting response is not overwhelming positive, somebody always posts something like this, with a semi veiled comment mentioning frustration, ange, or complaint.

Actually what I read here is nothing even close to that.  In fact if you read between the lines you will see a tight focus group giving opinions that most companies pay many thousands for.

I know some of the people here personally  and they are busy photographers that own or have owned all forms of medium format backs.  In the world of sales they would be classified as the target market.

Now once everythng is said and done, the new cameras are on the street, the results (if positive) I will bet that some of us mightl actually purchase one or more of these products, if it works as advertised and our needs are met.

In fact, that's the goal of all of this discusssion to work out what we need vs. what is possible.

Regardless I really don't see negative thought hear, I just see an honest opinion of what a lot of us would like to have in a camera.

Maybe in the world of camera making or brand loyalty that's not considered acceptable, but whether it is or isn't don't dismiss the op's analogy of medium format tethered and the cart of rocks, because on location the rocks would be eaiser to move around than a tech station and I doubt if the "rock assistant" would be two or three times the price of a photo assistant.

JR

P.S.  Let's don't turn off the lights of this subject, just because at this point we agree to disagree.

I know some of the  Phase people are they are enormously hard working and dedicated.

I am positive they want this to succeed and  though some decisions I don't quite understand, I am sure they have every intention of giving us more today than we had yesterday.

I think it's important to understand that there is an different anticipation between  the makers of a product than the end users.  As makers they are trying to offer what they think will motivate us to buy, weighing every decision based on available technology, costs and time to market.

As users we have somewhat the same goals but  must know the  complete costs and useability vs. the actual real world benifits.  Those costs don't stop at the back or the camera, but continue to storage, computer updates and most importantly time to preview, adjust, process and deliver.

We also must be 100% aware of what 'our" clients expect from us and not to beat a dead horse, few clients expect 300mb files though ALL clients do expect for us to capture some type of unique image and be sure that at the end of the day that goal is accomplished.

I think what this thread illustrates, especially in photograpy for commerce is the real world use vs. the lab world design are sometimes at odds.

The lcd really is at the heart of this.  Meters, histograms and dynamic range can make for a more iintelligent process of getting the shot right (right comes in a lot of variations).

Regardless, nothing stirs, informs and pleasures  a visual artist more than to see an exact represtantion of what will eventually get through post to print.

Nothing frustrates a visual artist more than using a preview system that is unwieldy and inhibits us from producing that unique image.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 12:17:24 am by James R Russell »
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Robin Balas

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« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2008, 05:54:07 am »

Quote
...
* Full frame 645. Yes, full frame, like the P65, but only 28-30 megapixles. No cardboard masks, no hyped-up reduced finders. Just full-frame 645.

* ASA ranges from 25-1600. You need 25 in order to do flash fill outside with Profotos, but you also need 1600 in case you find a great window in the back of a dark warehouse. No idea if this is technically possible, but the truth is the truth: we need 25-1600, in one back. Please figure it out.
...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You do realize that such a wide ISO range with a similar true DR for each ISO stop is not possible with today's CCD's or publicly available CMOS sensors. You do loose DR in some way if you have to compromise this big.

Hugely oversimplified the main factor for a CCDs ISO rating is its full well capacity, which until now is mostly given by 'sensor area' * 'fill factor'. The DR is then given by the full well capacity divided by the noise floor. The noise floor is a rather constant parameter when the sensor design have settled on a principle mostly dependent on temperature/read out speed. Changing sensel active area or using a ND keeps the noise floor at the same level effectively reducing the DR. Binning is the only way to increase DR or sensitivity I know of which doesn't negatively affect performance. And some kind of binning will be available in the new monster chips if rumours are true. But binning 4 sensels make your fancy 60MP back a 15MP back. New fancy binning patterns could give us 20MP or 30MP but with relatively less performance gain.

To make one chip perform equal with a 1600 ISO rating chip and a 25 ISO rating, the CCD would have to have a analogue gain before the AD and a sensor with enough headroom to allow >6 stops (!) of analogue amplification before readout. To allow this for today's 70-71dB sensors, one would need to find 36dB of increased S/N ratio which is in practice totally impossible, and extremely hard in theory.

One way to do this is having 6 times larger sensor area than today's sensors, but that is kinda hard unless you deploy a Fuji sensor design with a dual readout mechanism with equally different noise floors, which is extremely hard to achieve in practice. Using one readout circuitry would kill DR for the small sensels. One could utilize a depth factor and increase well capacity that way, but as far as I know of this is not commercially available technology yet. Lowering the noise floor further is nearly impossible and the achievements in that field have been remarkable the latests years, so it will be easier to look somewhere else for refinements of performance.

Forget the ISO range and ask for two backs or two modules for one MFDB housing, one optimized for ISO 25-50 and one for ISO 1600-3200. Photons and the generated electron volts are physical entities which isn't subject to Moore's law. You need area to collect enough photons.
Be realistic in what you ask for and you might get it. Be totally ignorant of what's practicably achievable with current commercially available technology and you will be ignored by the MFDB manufacturers and sensor producers.

But of course quantum leaps in technology happen, but rarely on command, so we could get a new breed of sensor technology one day, but photons will be photons and f-stops a logarithmic scale - that will not change. As I see it going up in sensor format without increasing resolution is the fruitful way to proceed, as that is playing by the physical laws and not trying to break them all the time. Tolerances are already silly with 6micron sensels and less for smaller formats. So please give me a 6x6 sensor (56x56mm) with 30MP +/- for a Sinar or Leaf AFi slr and my P2 LF.

If I write something strange please keep in mind that I am on holiday leave, religously following the tour  

Forza Arvesen and Hushovd!
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2008, 06:12:49 am »

Quote
A 30mp fullframe 645 will still be extremely expensive. Its not the pixels that drives the cost, its the size of the silicon in there. It wouldn't be substantially cheaper than the P65+...

Cost will go down.. slightly .. eventually. Unfortunately cost of production with regards to physical size of a chip are nowhere near as fast decreasing as other areas of digital computing.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Cost will go down with selling quantities as well....instead of 6000 per year worldwide ...60000 sold units per year would make a huge difference...in the final pricing of the sensor bought at the manufactures outlet store
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 06:13:32 am by heinrichvoelkel »
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heinrichvoelkel

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« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2008, 06:15:02 am »

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Forza Arvesen and Hushovd!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208859\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Forza Schleck, Schumacher and GST  


Sorry, couldn't resist
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2008, 06:19:57 am »

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To make one chip perform equal with a 1600 ISO rating chip and a 25 ISO rating, the CCD would have to have a analogue gain before the AD and a sensor with enough headroom to allow >6 stops (!) of analogue amplification before readout. To allow this for today's 70-71dB sensors, one would need to find 36dB of increased S/N ratio which is in practice totally impossible, and extremely hard in theory.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208859\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think anyone expects equal performance at iso 1600!
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Robin Balas

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« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2008, 06:33:32 am »

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I don't think anyone expects equal performance at iso 1600!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208865\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What would be a reasonable DR decrease for ISO1600, then? (shooting in available light in the back of a warehouse was mentioned)
I am not near that with my Aptus back so I have no experience of higher than ISO 400 as I find even ISO 400 a bit noisy, but I shoot mostly with plenty of light on 50 ISO and always wishing for less DOF on a table. Going 2-3 stops above my ISO400 performance should be doable in a full 645 back with same DR and noiselevels if microlenses is applied. But that would kill ISO 25 performance as the well capacity isn't big enough to handle microlenses and ISO 25. And microlenses is crap for LF use.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2008, 06:41:47 am »

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What would be a reasonable DR decrease for ISO1600, then? (shooting in available light in the back of a warehouse was mentioned)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208866\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

An SNR of 48dB should still look good, right? That implies an SNR of around 78dB at iso50, unless I'm missing something.

Quote
Going 2-3 stops above my ISO400 performance should be doable in a full 645 back with same DR and noiselevels if microlenses is applied.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208866\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dalsa mentions on their site that their fill factor is 80-90% already, so I don't think microlenses are worth it at this point.
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dustblue

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« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2008, 08:06:00 am »

I'll second this one. everytime I finished a editorial job, I'm asked to give all the thumbnail pics to the editor. And I have to wait another half hour when the macbookpro converting raws...for gods sick thats 600-1000 raws! really really boring, especially with my already tired to death legs.

Quote from: gwhitf,Jul 16 2008, 09:02 PM


Edit: * A back that shoots embedded previews large enough for a web gallery.

gwhitf

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« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2008, 08:06:27 am »

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You do realize that such a wide ISO range with a similar true DR for each ISO stop is not possible with today's CCD's or publicly available CMOS sensors. You do loose DR in some way if you have to compromise this big.

I will go back and try to edit my original post then. I somehow knew that 25-1600 wasn't possible, but a man can dream, right? I will reduce my desired ASA range to 50-800. How does that work for you?

How does Nikon D3 achieve asa 100-25,000, or whatever that high number is?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 08:13:57 am by gwhitf »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2008, 08:52:34 am »

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I don't think anyone expects equal performance at iso 1600!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208865\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

NIKON does it.

2000 iso on the nikon looks much, much better than 800 iso on any medium format.

Actually the D3 hit just about everything that customers asked for.  High iso, huge viewfinder, amazing lcd, rock solid build quality, in camera color/tone settings, hdv output,  two cf card slots for backup, 2:3 and 4:3 in camera masks, new lenses and a price of $5,000.

You can buy 8 nikons for the price off the new medium format . . . 8.

JR


P.S.  Nikon took a while to deliver what their customers asked for  . . . but they did do it.

The things that are being asked of medium format we asked for 5 years ago and the only thing delivered by MF 5 years later is more mpx and a frame size .16 to .26 larger.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2008, 09:00:04 am »

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NIKON does it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James, the original poster was talking about ISO 1600 performance EQUAL to base ISO performance. I doubt very much Nikon does that.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2008, 09:03:30 am »

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James, the original poster was talking about ISO 1600 performance EQUAL to base ISO performance. I doubt very much Nikon does that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's incredibly close.  So close that you have to look at the exif data to know the setting.

Maybe a 15% difference, but for most of  us that have used the Nikon 1000 iso looks better than the 200 iso.

This file has been messed with and obviously this is just a small jpeg with a lot of compression, but the original was smooth at 2000 iso.  So smooth we added grain/texture to it.

1600 iso on any medium format would have looked like a snow storm.




JR
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 09:19:58 am by James R Russell »
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Kumar

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« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2008, 09:16:19 am »

Quote
NIKON does it.

2000 iso on the nikon looks much, much better than 800 iso on any medium format.

Actually the D3 hit just about everything that customers asked for.  High iso, huge viewfinder, amazing lcd, rock solid build quality, in camera color/tone settings, hdv output,  two cf card slots for backup, 2:3 and 4:3 in camera masks, new lenses and a price of $5,000.

You can buy 8 nikons for the price off the new medium format . . . 8.

JR
P.S.  Nikon took a while to deliver what their customers asked for  . . . but they did do it.

The things that are being asked of medium format we asked for 5 years ago and the only thing delivered by MF 5 years later is more mpx and a frame size .16 to .26 larger.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quote
The Kieretsu to which Cosmos belongs is the one with Mitsubishi at its head, which includes, among other companies, Nikon.  Cosmos Scientific, the company that purchased Mamiya, does not appear to be a publicly traded company.  To cut to the chase, I think Nikon is behind Mamiya, but in a very Japanese conglomerate kind of way.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208549\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If, as TMark pointed out, Nikon and Mamiya are cousins, and Mitsubishi decides they should play together, we might see a NikoPhamiya soon...

Cheers,
Kumar
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2008, 10:05:50 am »

Quote from: dustblue,Jul 17 2008, 07:06 AM
I'll second this one. everytime I finished a editorial job, I'm asked to give all the thumbnail pics to the editor. And I have to wait another half hour when the macbookpro converting raws...for gods sick thats 600-1000 raws! really really boring, especially with my already tired to death legs.

Quote from: gwhitf,Jul 16 2008, 09:02 PM
Edit: * A back that shoots embedded previews large enough for a web gallery.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Capture One 4.0 has a web-gallery feature that takes about 1 minute per 300 images to create on a fast mac pro (my only experience is with phase backs in this regard). It's a really great tool and incorporates a great open-source javascript for navigation. The produced images are color-accurate sRGB conversions of the files WITH any adjustments you've made in Capture One (white balance, input profile, exposure, contrast etc etc).

Doug

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TMARK

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« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2008, 10:15:30 am »

"If, as TMark pointed out, Nikon and Mamiya are cousins, and Mitsubishi decides they should play together, we might see a NikoPhamiya soon..."

Some disclaimers:  I research clients' corporate structures, so when some "small" store opens and wants me to shoot signage and some catalogue work, and they claim poverty when it comes to the budget, I can say they should ask their sister companies for some marketing budget, especially when the sister corps are Urban and Anthroplogie.  I have only done this for European and US companies because I understand how their regulated disclosures work, I read English and German, and have passable French.  The Japanese system is beyond me.  So I'm about 60% on the Nikon connection.

Keep in mind that the Kieretsu don't function like they did in the past.  Much less centralization, and there is more cross polination in terms of suppliers, from what I can tell.

If anyone is in Tokyo and has passable Japanese, I'm sure there is a registry that lists the ownership interests and corporate forms of Japanese companies.
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