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Author Topic: Ideal MF system for Location/Portable Advertising  (Read 116998 times)

Jack Flesher

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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2008, 02:25:29 pm »

Uh guys, I shoot digital essentially 100% now...  My point was that we have always complained about the products of our trade and will NEVER see, have, or even get close to, a "perfect" camera, perfect digital back or even a perfect film emulsion...

Sheesh,
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TMARK

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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2008, 02:39:06 pm »

Quote
How in the world did HCB, AA, EW, SS, RA  make images without a screen let alone a histogram?

Come on why is a big pretty on camera display so important? 

DR, frame rate, sensor size, ISO sensitivity and noise are all key factors to a MFDB that can't be gotten any other way.

 You can see the images you took with big screen tethered, by zooming in on your back, check exposure with a tiny histogram, measure with a lightmeter... all kinds of ways.  Its not a make or break feature to a camera.    The screen has zero affect on image quality.  Again why is it so important?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To tell you the truth its for the client, because you can't always shoot tethered, and if you are outside you are blind.  If an AD can't approve a shot or approves a shot under pressure that s/he can't really see, you will not be working with that client again, and for $43k this should not be a issue.
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JDG

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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2008, 02:50:07 pm »

Overall I think there is a lot of good ideas in this thread... but at the same time all the talk about the P65+ and H3DII-50 has gotten quite ridiculous.  I don't post a whole lot, mostly because I don't always have time to constantly be posting back responses.  Anyway, boring introduction aside... i'll probably anger the LL forum faithful, but here is what it boils down to....

I pretty much agree with everything said above in terms of specs... do people shooters need more than 28-30 mp?  No... but will a large number of them buy a bigger back?? yes.  Despite what everyone complains about on here, the P45+ and H3DII-39 were easily the best selling backs for each company and I have worked on so many magazine fashion shoots with the P45 it's ridiculous.

So we all complain that they aren't listening to us...  but it seems to me that in general they are.  Lets consider the P65+.  Based on what Phase has mentioned this answers most complaints.  
Its full frame, and if this variable resolution thing pans out well it will be an extremely versatile back.  It could do lower resolution at faster speeds and with higher iso if needed.  If this can really stand up to what is indicated, instead of having different backs for different applications you could have one back for all applications from landscape to people.

What about the LCD screen? This has been raised to such a big issue (and rightly so) that it seems if any manufacturer made a good screen, they could run away with the market.  It would down right negligent not implement it.  Michael indicated rather directly that phase at least is very aware of customers need for a better LCD.  It seems to me that if companies like Phase and Leaf and hasselblad can produce rather amazing products like they do, there must be a darn good reason why no one has managed to implement a good screen.  To put screens in perspective, Leaf's is the largest in size, but the lowest in resolution.  Phase and Hasselblad have the exact same resolution despite differences in physical size.  Dont get me wrong, the screens suck and need to be replaced 2 years ago, but we are also complaining about limitations of a camera that has not been released yet and that we have very little actual spec on.

Filesize?  Here's some perspective: H25 raw file: 42mb, P65+ IIQ-S raw file: about 40mb.  The difference here is that when the H25 came out a 100gb hardrive was a big deal and alot of money... now we get 1T drives at reasonable prices.  Yes files are bigger, but the growth of cheap storage continues to expand at much much faster rates.

How do we upgrade ISO?  I don't know, but apparently Phase does and we will find out at some point.  I think the biggest fallacy we make is assuming that all CCD's regardless of whether they were designed 6 years ago or 6 months ago operate with the same limitations.  We assume that bigger pixel automatically equals better quality, DR, ISO, etc.  but perhaps in practicality this is not the case?  I don't know, I don't design CCDs.  I can however look at what has been done before.  P30 has 6.8 micron pixels, P21 has 9 micron pixels... given that they were developed about the same time and both use micro lenses do we assume that the P21 will lend a better image? Higher ISO?  Because in reality the image quality and DR is pretty much the same for both Cameras.  Also the P30+ has ISO 1600 and the P21+ only 800.  Why should we not expect a brand new CCD that was designed at least 3 years later not to offer significant advancements... and if we would not get better real world performance from 9 micron pixel in a newer sensor then what would be the point in making a 28mp FF back if we can use some advanced binning on a 60mp to produce the same thing?

Price wise, i'm not sure that there is much we can hope for.  Canon can sell a 21mp camera for 8K because they dont need to make any money on it.  They make there money from the millions of rebels and point and shoots they sell.  

Ultimately it comes down to this, were are forming opinions and arguing the positives and negatives on backs that no one has used, no one has seen, and indeed have not been manufactured yet.  Its time for a deep breath and to look forward to Photokina.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2008, 03:03:28 pm »

Quote
How in the world did HCB, AA, EW, SS, RA  make images without a screen let alone a histogram?

Come on why is a big pretty on camera display so important? 

DR, frame rate, sensor size, ISO sensitivity and noise are all key factors to a MFDB that can't be gotten any other way.

 You can see the images you took with big screen tethered, by zooming in on your back, check exposure with a tiny histogram, measure with a lightmeter... all kinds of ways.  Its not a make or break feature to a camera.    The screen has zero affect on image quality.  Again why is it so important?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


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gwhitf

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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2008, 03:11:42 pm »

Mr JDG:

No one would buy a P65+ and shoot it on Raw Small, and risk the jaggies that occur at ASA 200 and higher, from the compression. That's like buying a 5-series, but never getting it out of second gear. So let's clear that up quickly. So what is the file size of a P65 file in Raw Large, and how large is it once processed in 8bit RGB?

Why does Phase release this incomplete information then, knowing that the internet will be full of speculation, based on no facts, (since Phase does not disclose all of them)? I remember when my Apple 17 inch laptop was announced -- I read about it in the morning of the announcement, and picked up the phone and called my Apple dealer to order one. I asked him when they'd actually be in stock and ready to ship. He said, "Well, actually today". Announce a product, complete with details, and have it on the shelf, ready to sell and ship, THAT DAY. That is a business practice worth supporting. You guys wonder why there's so much misinformation? It's because Phase sets it up that way. (As do other MF companies). It does not have to be that way. You want informed customers -- present clear information.

And for the record, if Phase surprises us all and ships the P65 with a large killer LCD that can be trusted, I'll eat my words and be the first in line to buy one, at full retail. But what good is 60 megapixels if you're trying to light a portrait, on location, in the sunshine, and you're trying to achieve a good workable balance between the fill strobe and the Ambient, and trying to judge it off the LCD? This is why only people working with Techs will use these expensive, incomplete backs.
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hubell

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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2008, 03:15:23 pm »

Quote
What about the LCD screen? This has been raised to such a big issue (and rightly so) that it seems if any manufacturer made a good screen, they could run away with the market. It would down right negligent not implement it. Michael indicated rather directly that phase at least is very aware of customers need for a better LCD. It seems to me that if companies like Phase and Leaf and hasselblad can produce rather amazing products like they do, there must be a darn good reason why no one has managed to implement a good screen. To put screens in perspective, Leaf's is the largest in size, but the lowest in resolution. Phase and Hasselblad have the exact same resolution despite differences in physical size. Dont get me wrong, the screens suck and need to be replaced 2 years ago, but we are also complaining about limitations of a camera that has not been released yet and that we have very little actual spec on.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is a spec on the LCD for the P65+: [a href=\"http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/P65plus/TechSpecs.aspx]http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalb.../TechSpecs.aspx[/url]

Same old, same old. Perhaps they need to use that screen so you can run over the back with your car and put the back in the freezer.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 03:28:11 pm by hcubell »
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James R Russell

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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2008, 03:18:32 pm »

Quote
Ultimately it comes down to this, were are forming opinions and arguing the positives and negatives on backs that no one has used, no one has seen, and indeed have not been manufactured yet.  Its time for a deep breath and to look forward to Photokina.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I agree with the wait part , but don't think for a moment, they don't want you to buy today.

And the manufacturer's should be ready for this type of discourse.

After all they produce the pdfs and press releases to one up each other, so if you want the buzz, expect the blowback.

If they can live up to the buzz, then fine . . . they're golden.

If not, well we all know the answer to this.

JR
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jimgolden

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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2008, 03:22:51 pm »

Quote
How in the world did HCB, AA, EW, SS, RA  make images without a screen let alone a histogram?

Come on why is a big pretty on camera display so important? 

DR, frame rate, sensor size, ISO sensitivity and noise are all key factors to a MFDB that can't be gotten any other way.

 You can see the images you took with big screen tethered, by zooming in on your back, check exposure with a tiny histogram, measure with a lightmeter... all kinds of ways.  Its not a make or break feature to a camera.    The screen has zero affect on image quality.  Again why is it so important?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I kind of agree. I use histo 99% of the time for exposure - the screen is just to compose. However, my H3D22 screen really is not so hot compared to the one on my 5D. I can really tell whether things are sharp or not till I get to the computer. the 5D, no problem - can call it right there...

that said, I haven't seen the H3DII screen yet...but I'm already locked into my cam for now, so no upgrades coming thru. I dont need anymore than 22MPs - I'd rather have more glass and T/S adapter...
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jimgolden

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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2008, 03:30:54 pm »

a great compromise would be a 4:3 ratio iPhone/Touch type device (with a bigger screen) that you could plug in, zoom in , then bust out some lo-rez JPGs to send off to respective parties, etc... no laptop necc.
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gwhitf

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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2008, 03:46:43 pm »

Quote
a great compromise would be a 4:3 ratio iPhone/Touch type device (with a bigger screen) that you could plug in, zoom in , then bust out some lo-rez JPGs to send off to respective parties, etc... no laptop necc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jim,

One of the famous "promises" from Phase One was the fabled WIFI device that would do just that. That was on their Road Map, so that their loyal customers could plan their purchasing decisions based on solid trustable information. Uh, have you seen one of these WIFI devices anywhere? Let's ask Mr JDG about that.

Also, "just about to ship" was the CaptureOne version 4 Pro. When was that? Maybe almost two years ago now?

Mr Russell is correct -- if you're going to publish a Road Map, then don't complain about the blowback when it doesn't come to fruition.

Interesting too that Phase is lingering, for some reason, to allow the Canon 1ds3 to successfully tether to CaptureOne. Wonder why that is? Maybe a (planned) bump in the road, to keep the mutiny from continuing, away from Phase and toward Canon? Ever try to tether with EOS Utility, a 1ds3, and try to use CaptureOne from a Hot Folder? It's not a pretty sight, and I'm sure Phase One is in no hurry to remedy that.

Anyone that is curious about the effect that employing a Digital Tech on Location, and the (negative) effect that it has on your shooting, try this:

1. Go to Home Depot.
2. Buy a wheelbarrow.
3. Fill it with rocks. Heavy rocks. About as heavy as a G5.
4. Tie a 16 foot string from your camera to the wheelbarrow.
5. Hire a guy (at about $1500 a day) to push the wheelbarrow around with you all day, on location.
6. (Optional, for effect): While at Home Depot, rent a really loud Honda generator and put it in the wheelbarrow, on top of the rock pile.
7. Take your camera, and your new "assistant", and go out on location, and do about ten shots, in ten different locations. Wherever you go, he goes with you. NEVER UNTIE THE STRING, except at lunch.
8. Come home. See how you feel.
9. Imagine that is now your professional digital life. You and your new buddy, and his cute little wheelbarrow.
10. Or, just buy a Nikon D3, and trust your LCD.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 08:14:15 pm by gwhitf »
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Anthony R

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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2008, 03:56:32 pm »

"trying to light a portrait, on location, in the sunshine, and you're trying to achieve a good workable balance between the fill strobe and the Ambient, and trying to judge it off the LCD?"

You use a meter like you should be doing anyway instead of eyeballing it. Remember the good ole days?

Not saying that we shouldn't have the best lcd screen period, not just as good as the current dslr offering. Everyone's biggest frustration, paying loads of money only to be topped by 25k less.

Maybe Canon or Nikon should just start making MF digital backs, they've certainly the $..
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TechTalk

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« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2008, 04:04:46 pm »

Instead of rehashing the same old complaints about the incompetence of manufacturers that cause you endless frustration, you could be learning how to work through your anger and frustration by using Photoshop. Really. Here's a link to illustrate...  You Suck at Photoshop_lesson_1
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TMARK

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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2008, 04:07:29 pm »

Quote
"trying to light a portrait, on location, in the sunshine, and you're trying to achieve a good workable balance between the fill strobe and the Ambient, and trying to judge it off the LCD?"

You use a meter like you should be doing anyway instead of eyeballing it. Remember the good ole days?

Not saying that we shouldn't have the best lcd screen period, not just as good as the current dslr offering. Everyone's biggest frustration, paying loads of money only to be topped by 25k less.

Maybe Canon or Nikon should just start making MF digital backs, they've certainly the $..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Absolutely use a meter, but then all you have to show the AD is the flash analyze function on the Sekonic showing "75%", indicating that 75% of the light is from an ambient source.  

I meter, get ratios etc, then fine tune tethered.  I know many people don't do this but for me its ritualistic.
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James R Russell

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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2008, 04:10:03 pm »

Quote
a great compromise would be a 4:3 ratio iPhone/Touch type device (with a bigger screen) that you could plug in, zoom in , then bust out some lo-rez JPGs to send off to respective parties, etc... no laptop necc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


So, why are any of us talking about this?  Because we just saw the largest maker of medium format backs introduce something new and a lot of us we're probably hoping for something different and the details more forthcoming.

In a way I should wipe my brow and go whew, I was just saved by having to spend another 20 grand, because with my upgraded sticker system I'm good for at least the next generations.


JR
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ruraltrekker

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« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2008, 04:21:02 pm »

Quote
Anyone that is curious about the effect that employing a Digital Tech on Location, and the (negative) effect that it has on your shooting, try this:

1. Go to Home Depot.
2. Buy a wheelbarrow.
3. Fill it with rocks. Heavy rocks.
4. Tie a 16 foot string from your camera to the wheelbarrow.
5. Hire a guy to push the wheelbarrow around with you all day, on location.
6. Optional for effect: While at Home Depot, rent a really loud Honda generator and put it in the wheelbarrow, on top of the rock pile.
7. Take your camera, and your new "assistant", and go out on location, and do about ten shots, in ten different locations. Wherever you go, he goes with you. NEVER UNTIE THE STRING, except at lunch.
8. Come home. See how you feel.
9. Imagine that is now your professional life. You and your new buddy, and his cute little wheelbarrow.
10. Or, just buy a Nikon D3, and trust your LCD.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am not sure I get this. Do you happen to have a picture of this contraption? I am eager to get one myself.  

As they say, Funny but True.

Ken
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JDG

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« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2008, 04:38:36 pm »

Quote
Jim,

One of the famous "promises" from Phase One was the fabled WIFI device that would do just that. That was on their Road Map, so that their loyal customers could plan their purchasing decisions based on solid trustable information. Uh, have you seen one of these WIFI devices anywhere? Let's ask Mr JDG about that.


Interesting too that Phase is lingering, for some reason, to allow the Canon 1ds3 to successfully tether to CaptureOne. Wonder why that is? Maybe a (planned) bump in the road, to keep the mutiny from continuing, away from Phase and toward Canon? Ever try to tether with EOS Utility, a 1ds3, and try to use CaptureOne from a Hot Folder? It's not a pretty sight, and I'm sure Phase One is in no hurry to remedy that.

Anyone that is curious about the effect that employing a Digital Tech on Location, and the (negative) effect that it has on your shooting, try this:

1. Go to Home Depot.
2. Buy a wheelbarrow.
3. Fill it with rocks. Heavy rocks.
4. Tie a 16 foot string from your camera to the wheelbarrow.
5. Hire a guy to push the wheelbarrow around with you all day, on location.
6. Optional for effect: While at Home Depot, rent a really loud Honda generator and put it in the wheelbarrow, on top of the rock pile.
7. Take your camera, and your new "assistant", and go out on location, and do about ten shots, in ten different locations. Wherever you go, he goes with you. NEVER UNTIE THE STRING, except at lunch.
8. Come home. See how you feel.
9. Imagine that is now your professional life. You and your new buddy, and his cute little wheelbarrow.
10. Or, just buy a Nikon D3, and trust your LCD.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It warms my heart to know that I succeeded in pissing off at least one person.  I'm not sure why you expect me to have an answer to WIFI?  You're right they shouldn't have announced a product roadmap that they couldn't stick to.  I don't know why it was delayed, or what  is happening with it.

I'm not here to support any company, and I have no problem complaining about things, but honestly lets be reasonable people and wait till we have something solid to complain about.

Obviously Mark III tethered support is not going to be the biggest priority for Phase One.. I can imagine anyone would be surprised by that.  Of course everyone will probably be just as mad when they do get  C14 Pro and the Mark III is slow as hell thanks to that USB interface.
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Photomangreg

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« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2008, 04:54:16 pm »

Quote
Edit: * A back that shoots embedded previews large enough for a web gallery. (I don't know how many times I can edit this post, but as people respond here with good points, I'm adding them). Yes, there is nothing more frustrating than shooting a three day lifestyle job on location, (without a tech in tow), and then as you're packing the van at the end of the job, the AD comes up to you with that congratulatory beer in his hand, and says, "OK, we're outta here, we're headed to the bar. And oh by the way, this job is pretty hot; we'd just love to see web galleries by tomorrow afternoon, to begin the edit". It's at that point that you realize that you've now got to batch three days of eight setups per day, from the RAW into a 1200x900 sRGB JPG. So let's just mention: You won't be joining him in the bar.

-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Shooting with a Hasselblad H3DII39 and importing into Phocus with large preview selected produces an imbedded jpeg that is 1200x900, you can then export this file almost instantaneously, it takes about 10 seconds to export 100 fast Jpegs at this size.
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Anthony R

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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2008, 04:58:59 pm »

Quote
Absolutely use a meter, but then all you have to show the AD is the flash analyze function on the Sekonic showing "75%", indicating that 75% of the light is from an ambient source. 

I meter, get ratios etc, then fine tune tethered.  I know many people don't do this but for me its ritualistic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not saying a light meter replaces something an AD can see , I'm just forever mystified by the 'no meter just look at the back and the histogram set' - I suppose it's fine for those that aren't critical and are not that particular about light, but for me it's tantamount. 1/8 of a stop makes all the beauty or ass in the world. Photography is getting dumbed down.

Techtalk, GFY with your nothing useful to say-ness. Your comment isn't even relevant.
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thsinar

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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2008, 05:09:07 pm »

 

Quote
You Suck at Photoshop_lesson_1
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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gwhitf

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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 05:34:11 pm »

Quote
I'm not saying a light meter replaces something an AD can see , I'm just forever mystified by the 'no meter just look at the back and the histogram set' - I suppose it's fine for those that aren't critical and are not that particular about light, but for me it's tantamount. 1/8 of a stop makes all the beauty or ass in the world. Photography is getting dumbed down.

Anthony,

Yes, I agree, using a meter is great and all, but let's be honest -- when you're doing front fill on a face, and your main light is from the rear, whether it's the sun or a Profoto head, there's nothing like seeing it on a Polaroid or on a good LCD. And this is only to talk about how you'd light the shot yourself; this is not even getting into the issue of showing the shot to the AD.

All I'm saying is, if you're going to take Polaroid away from us, then at least give us something comparable to work with, if you're doing complex lighting. If film is dead, then please let there be a suitable large LCD to show the client, without the hassle of being forced to hire a Tech for each and every job.

And for the record, I agree with you about the snide comment from Mr Hasselblad.

And to JDG, this is a workaround for tethering with the 1ds3:

1. Put a CF card in Slot 1.
2. Put an SD card in Slot 2.
3. Set the camera to "record separately".
4. Set the camera to "Playback only Slot 2".
5. Set the Slot 1, the CF slot, to record RAW.
6. Set the Slot 2, the SC card, to record JPG SMALL.
7. Open EOS Utility, and link it to DPP.
8. Hook up the USB cable to the Mac.

When you shoot now, only the tiny JPG will be sent to EOS Utility. The RAW file is not sent over the puny USB cable. Instead of waiting eight seconds for the RAW to transmit, the JPG will be sent in one second. Almost instantly. If you set up the software correctly, you can have a full screen window, and each new shot fills the Mac screen.

The only (and big) downside is: The CF cards still need to manually downloaded to the Mac, since they're not being transmitted. But you can, at least with this method, shoot very fast, and the client can stand right next to the MacBook Pro, or whatever, and see what's being shot, almost instantly. The other downside is that whenever a card gets full, and you open the CF door, and then reinsert a new card and format, the software takes about thirty seconds to "refind" the 1ds3 camera. You gotta do a little dance while this is happening, because the camera locks up and shows "Busy" on the top LCD.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 07:55:49 pm by gwhitf »
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