Ideal MF system for Location/Portable Advertising

[Dean s24]

I understand all the negativity here but i really think it is unfair and not justifiable to compare to "the old days" as so many are comparing to. Digital has been a new era for some time now and technology is ever evolving. All the questions that are being asked will be answered to in time i am sure, but the manufacturers will never be able to satisfy all photographers.

Shooting a Polaroid and having to wait a little for an image to show the client before continuing with a shoot was also a little painful and only supplied a small preview of the final image. I also realize that time is of the essence on a demanding fashion shoot but why not use the same old process, where you shoot a preliminary shot, onto a laptop, get the approval of the client. Then disconnect and shoot. if the client wants to see how it is going then simply plug in and do another test preview. the laptop is your new polaroid, only 15 or 17 inches in size with a brilliant display. Only we need to see what is happening on our digital backs as it is our tool of the trade.

Im not dissing anybody as i know there are different demands for everyone, but i find it simple enough to shoot untethered we i need to and tethered when the client needs me to.

what we should be complaining about is how demanding the industry has become because of those little pesky pocket cameras that are so widely available and give the perception that digital is quick and easy.

I think Sinar has come very close to answering a lot of the demands with the HY-6 in terms of what was asked at the beginning of the forum, im sure it is a matter of (a short) time before these things are improved upon. Just my opinion!!!

[gwhitf]

Everybody crowded around the monitor, even on a Demarchelier shoot.

I rest my case. Just wrong.

http://blog.photoshelter.com/image/stsl12_coverlook0807.jpg

[ericisaac]

Everybody crowded around the monitor, even on a Demarchelier shoot.

I rest my case. Just wrong.

http://blog.photoshelter.com/image/stsl12_coverlook0807.jpg
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Haha, even that girl is trying to get a higher view. See the corner where that guy with the beard is standing? That is where I would be, my back against the wall, all comfortable with the screen facing me.

[James R Russell]

Haha, even that girl is trying to get a higher view. See the corner where that guy with the beard is standing? That is where I would be, my back against the wall, all comfortable with the screen facing me.
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I think this proves that everyone, including the photographer wants to see a decent preview.

A powerbook works and I do one on a tripod similar to that when possible and though it is less tied down than the 250 lb. cart o' rocks, there is some limiations.

What I don't understand and this is a real honest question is why if building a back with an extra processor and a decent lcd so difficult or expensive?

I see replacement ipod lcd's for sale at any quanity for $49 and how much does a pentium processor costs, $300, $400 bucks, hell they sell Dell laptops for $600.



JR

[James R Russell]

Everybody crowded around the monitor, even on a Demarchelier shoot.

I rest my case. Just wrong.

http://blog.photoshelter.com/image/stsl12_coverlook0807.jpg
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When I look at this I wonder if Patrick knows if the image is 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60megapixels?

JR

[ron203]

When I look at this I wonder if Patrick knows if the image is 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60megapixels?

JR
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I think he knows:

[a href=\"http://blog.photoshelter.com/image/stsl08_coverlook0807.jpg]Patrick's Canon[/url]

Here's the rest of the story:
http://blog.photoshelter.com/2008/07/behin...e-cover-ga.html

[StuartR]

Well, I agree that the LCD's really need to improve, but I believe the real solution is in quickly, wirelessly transferring that preview to an external device like the iPhone, P5000 or similar. Medium format backs are very small given the amount of technology that they have to fit. Granted, the D3 or 1DsMKIII have to incorporate a mirror box, viewfinder and everything else, but I still think there is a lot more room for a big screen and the associated electronics than there is in a digital back which has to fit a sensor more than double the size, along with all the electronics AND the battery to run it. The absolute maximum size for the viewfinder would be like the current 6x7 Leaf option, but that also necessitates a touchscreen. If you are not going to use a touchscreen, you are limited to rather small LCD's.

I would love for those small LCD's to have a quality that the D3 and D300 have, but the true solution is to have a compact, screen only solution for previews. That solves the problem of battery life, heat generation and the size limitations of the backs themselves. Additionally, they can be passed around to people while the photographer is free to keep shooting. In my mind, this is a more realistic and useful solution than having 4x5 inch previews on the backs themselves. Hopefully we can get slightly larger, higher resolution and more color correct previews on the backs themselves, but an option to use a truly purpose-built external device.

[gwhitf]

Hopefully we can get slightly larger, higher resolution and more color correct previews on the backs themselves, but an option to use a truly purpose-built external device.
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One day we will look back and laugh at what we used to drag around on location -- the Honda generator, the kart, the giant G5 box, the double monitors, the strapped-on espresso machine.

Let's make that day come sooner, rather than later.

[James R Russell]

I would love for those small LCD's to have a quality that the D3 and D300 have, but the true solution is to have a compact, screen only solution for previews. That solves the problem of battery life, heat generation and the size limitations of the backs themselves. Additionally, they can be passed around to people while the photographer is free to keep shooting. In my mind, this is a more realistic and useful solution than having 4x5 inch previews on the backs themselves. Hopefully we can get slightly larger, higher resolution and more color correct previews on the backs themselves, but an option to use a truly purpose-built external device.
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I think what throws most of us (photographers) is we have to realize we're not the center of the universe.  (I know I have a difficult time accepting that thought).  

So . . . we look at an I-phone, I-pod and even the Canons, devices that are truly revolutionary that  changed whole industries and think, if they can make a beautiful ipod touch screen for $250, or a 22mpx Canon for 7k, why can't they do that for my $40,000 (cough, cough) camera back.

What I think surprisea me more is how the information gets out.  Sure there is the 50, 60 mpx press releases and the dealer blogs about tilt shift Boris lenses, but its  a lot of headline, not a lot of body copy and quite honestly what we put in our hand to work, doesn't look that much different than it did 4 years ago.

I think we're waiting for that revolutionary change, much like the RED.   Something that looks and functions different than anything that came before.

Now I wonder, is the RED here to stay or is it built to take a bite out of Canon, Sony and Panasonic with the thought that one of them will  just buy the company?


JR

[TMARK]

I've thought long and hard about the state of this industry.  I've talked to my friends in media/publishing, AD/CD types, picture editors, painters, jewelers, video guys, film guys, internet guys etc. All people who deal with digital technology to produce images to make a living.  The result:  Everyone feels over saturated.  Too many upgrades, too many changes too fast, too many imperfect products, too many software problems, too many hardware problems.  In the lasy year or so digital (cameras, computers, printers, backs, applications, etc) seems to have transitioned from a tool that increased productivity and your ability to focus on core functions to a drag on the bottom line and efficiency.  Be it the cart 'o' rocks, $43k digital backs without many viable options to hang it on, software bugs, cracking iPhone screens, shitty internet upload speeds, new computers, new OS and non-upgraded drivers, terabyte after terabyte of redundant storage, its all too much to deal with when what you need to do is produce great photos and show them to clients/potential clients.  

Of interest is that the film guys who shoot with Reds or Sony EX1s are less overwhelmed because their products JUST WORK.  Same with the guys and gals who shoot Canon.  It just works with a minimum of fuss.  

Meanwhile the best options to hang my Phase back on all suck for one reason or another.  They are all servicable options, but the only one I would use out of love is the RZ.  The Hy6 is close but there are still odd issues with it, such as no exif, but its getting there.  But then there is SinarBron USA which is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.  The software seems opaque. I don't know many people who have shot one much less own one.  

Its all too much to worry about.  I might get a 1ds3 and tune out of the MFD world, maybe tune back in in a few years, see if they have that LCD issue sorted. God knows the clients wouldn't know the difference.  

Cheers everybody.

[robert zimmerman]

But then there is SinarBron USA which is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

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A spot on description for te whole industry.

[Tim Lüdin]

Yeah, the damn 1Ds3 just works and it works and works and works.
Last week I shot a bigger project for a legal company. After 3 days of shooting I realized that I didn't have  a backup body with me all the time. First I got angry at me but  then I went like "so what". This cam never failed me once. The 1DS  2 never failed me after 3 years of heavy usage.

Now some one tell me, why should I buy the new hassy kit for about 60K?
I want it, I would love it. I have been dreaming about it for the last 2 years.
But damn, how much better will it be than my 1DS3? About 3 times better, nicer, faster?
No, no chance. So why should I buy it?

If the kit (3lenses) would cost around 35K I would buy it any minute. But there is not enough bang for the buck to justify it. My RED shows me that every day.

The canons are somewhere near 85%. They are so close to perfect that most clients won't see the difference. They dont care and also dont want to pay the difference, so why should we photographers pay it?
It's because we love the high-end quality more than our clients. We love to capture perfect pictures. We love to colorgrade like  there is no tomorrow.
But at 60K a kit my love starts to fade.

Maybe we realy should wait another 2 years till the right MF cam comes out. But wait, what if they wont be around till then?
Just some thoughts.

Tim

[thsinar]

Dear TMARK,

- There IS exif data with the Hy6!

- May I ask which software "seems opaque" and what exactly?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

The Hy6 is close but there are still odd issues with it, such as no exif, but its getting there.  But then there is SinarBron USA which is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.  The software seems opaque. I don't know many people who have shot one much less own one. 
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[ericisaac]

I think this proves that everyone, including the photographer wants to see a decent preview.

A powerbook works and I do one on a tripod similar to that when possible and though it is less tied down than the 250 lb. cart o' rocks, there is some limiations.

What I don't understand and this is a real honest question is why if building a back with an extra processor and a decent lcd so difficult or expensive?

I see replacement ipod lcd's for sale at any quanity for $49 and how much does a pentium processor costs, $300, $400 bucks, hell they sell Dell laptops for $600.
JR
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From what I understand, it doesn't take much heat to generate a whole lot of noise. I am not certain what the "sweet spot" temperature is but this is what has been partly to blame as to why Phase has not improved on their LCD.

[Snook]

Yeah, the damn 1Ds3 just works and it works and works and works.
Last week I shot a bigger project for a legal company. After 3 days of shooting I realized that I didn't have  a backup body with me all the time. First I got angry at me but  then I went like "so what". This cam never failed me once. The 1DS  2 never failed me after 3 years of heavy usage.

Now some one tell me, why should I buy the new hassy kit for about 60K?
I want it, I would love it. I have been dreaming about it for the last 2 years.
But damn, how much better will it be than my 1DS3? About 3 times better, nicer, faster?
No, no chance. So why should I buy it?

If the kit (3lenses) would cost around 35K I would buy it any minute. But there is not enough bang for the buck to justify it. My RED shows me that every day.

The canons are somewhere near 85%. They are so close to perfect that most clients won't see the difference. They dont care and also dont want to pay the difference, so why should we photographers pay it?
It's because we love the high-end quality more than our clients. We love to capture perfect pictures. We love to colorgrade like  there is no tomorrow.
But at 60K a kit my love starts to fade.

Maybe we realy should wait another 2 years till the right MF cam comes out. But wait, what if they wont be around till then?
Just some thoughts.

Tim
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Agree 200%
My MFDB limit is 15,000...:+} 60,000 is quite a lot considering the 1DsMIII is 8,000
The only problem I see with the 1DsMIII is no firewire... Big error there.
I might have to wait for the MIV when they put it back...
I think the medium format back should be embarassed...
Leaf is the only one that took screen into consideration.. I think Hssleblad is following while Phase is parking trucks on theirs...:+]
Next time my client comes to my studio I say you cannot see the images in te back but you can park your hummer on my DB if you want...
I think James R's little portable screen like the epson p5000 but bigger will come into production before phase get's the lcd worked out..:+]
Snook

I had a 1DsMII, took it everywhere and NEVER had a problem. Only wit the firewire ports which is maybe why they went back to USB???

[James R Russell]

From what I understand, it doesn't take much heat to generate a whole lot of noise. I am not certain what the "sweet spot" temperature is but this is what has been partly to blame as to why Phase has not improved on their LCD.
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Heat?

Uh I'm not a scientist but I don't know about that one.  I've shot the Canons, the Nikons and even the Phase in 105F heat all day long and didn't see any real difference in noise.

How can a 3/4" more lcd make that much of a difference.

Anyway, I don't really think it's the lcd any more or less than the previews the backs generate.

In fact I just got this strange Phase extreme newsletter where they freeze it, bake it, and drive a truck over it.  so a larger lcd will cause noise?    I don't know about that.

It's funny though that this conversation has been going on for years and the lcd's look pretty much the same.  

Meidum format, or any professional capture device is never going to escape this issue, because the real benfiit of digial capture is knowing you have the shot.  

It's also cost related.  You just can't say you spent 40 grand on a back and then show a client that lcd, it's like showing them those little 2 bedroom 1 bath houses in Venice, Ca, next to a Liquor store and telling them they cost 1.2 million.  They just shake their head in disbelief.

I have this little hv20 Canon camcorder  with a Letus on the front and use Nikon lenses.  The little flip out lcd is not what I would call beautiful, but it's so detalied that you can shoot a 50 1.2 wide open and focus on the eyes . . . either eye.  

At one point, Fuji had something like that, with that medium format back they made and never sold to anyone.  How hard is it do let it flip out and not cause heat, it that really is the issue.

The thing is it's eventually all about the client.  Phase's client, miy client, my client's client.

If a client (customer) keeps asking for something and it never comes then they move on.

We all have ways around the lcd, sometimes using the Canon or Nikon as an electronic Polaroid, sometimes using a powerbook or that 250 lb cart o' rocks, but we're in the business of delivering, so we deliver.

Now how do you think the Red would have been received if their lcd was smaller than the hv20?

JR

[Snook]

Heat?

Uh I'm not a scientist but I don't know about that one.  I've shot the Canons, the Nikons and even the Phase in 105F heat all day long and didn't see any real difference in noise.

How can a 3/4" more lcd make that much of a difference.

Anyway, I don't really think it's the lcd any more or less than the previews the backs generate.

In fact I just got this strange Phase extreme newsletter where they freeze it, bake it, and drive a truck over it.  so a larger lcd will cause noise?    I don't know about that.

It's funny though that this conversation has been going on for years and the lcd's look pretty much the same. 

Meidum format, or any professional capture device is never going to escape this issue, because the real benfiit of digial capture is knowing you have the shot. 

It's also cost related.  You just can't say you spent 40 grand on a back and then show a client that lcd, it's like showing them those little 2 bedroom 1 bath houses in Venice, Ca, next to a Liquor store and telling them they cost 1.2 million.  They just shake their head in disbelief.

I have this little hv20 Canon camcorder  with a Letus on the front and use Nikon lenses.  The little flip out lcd is not what I would call beautiful, but it's so detalied that you can shoot a 50 1.2 wide open and focus on the eyes . . . either eye. 

At one point, Fuji had something like that, with that medium format back they made and never sold to anyone.  How hard is it do let it flip out and not cause heat, it that really is the issue.

The thing is it's eventually all about the client.  Phase's client, miy client, my client's client.

If a client (customer) keeps asking for something and it never comes then they move on.

We all have ways around the lcd, sometimes using the Canon or Nikon as an electronic Polaroid, sometimes using a powerbook or that 250 lb cart o' rocks, but we're in the business of delivering, so we deliver.

Now how do you think the Red would have been received if their lcd was smaller than the hv20?

JR
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I guess if people keep buying them why should phase change.
I have to tell you that I on many occasions have felt really small showing off my new P30 back and then the people go to look at the image on my camera and it looks like something from the 80's
I wish I had a picture od their faces everytime it has happened..
they almost keep looking waqiting for the image to get better...:+]
Quite embarrassing with a 16,000 camera back... not to mention the others who paid 25-30k for a p45...
Especially when they just worked with a photographer that has a nikon or a DsMIII.
does anybody know if there is a way to get or can we all write epson and ask them to make the .tif from phase visable... that might be a nice little feature..?
Again I tink some one should make a digital polaroid machine like James mock -up
I'll buy one..:+]
Snook
In any case I was sure that phase was working on it but then when they popped the p65+ out and it was the same... very dissappointing!
Hassle blad is looking better and better.
If it was not for the fan deal on the leaf I almost went with the leaf systems as it is nice to see what you are shooting. ANYTHING is better than the lcd on Phase.

[ron203]

The only problem I see with the 1DsMIII is no firewire... Big error there.
I might have to wait for the MIV when they put it back...

I had a 1DsMII, took it everywhere and NEVER had a problem. Only wit the firewire ports which is maybe why they went back to USB???
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The USB works better than the firewire, and it's a *lot* more reliable in my experience. IThe USB is only slow using the Mac OS X because of Apple messed up drivers. On Windows, or using Windows within OS X, the USB interface flies. (I returned 1D cameras about 10 times due to f*ed up firewire ports, but the 5Ds (I have 3 of them) have never had to be returned due to the USB port. And they have seen a TON of tethered use.)

Also, as to heat on the LCDs creating noise issues for the backs, Nikon made a camera with a very good LCD with the lowest noise of any  camera on the planet, so how is heat an issue there??

Why doesn't one of the back makers just come out and say why they don't upgrade the LCDs?

[gwhitf]

I guess if people keep buying them why should phase change.
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This is an interesting comment.

Everything that I hear is that the P45 and plus were the best selling (and most expensive) backs ever to come out of Phase. So maybe that's true -- maybe they're selling, and maybe they expect the P65+ to sell even better. Maybe they've done market research and found that most everyone that's using the P45 and P65 are tethering, and could care less about the LCD.

Maybe they've found that everyone that cares about the LCD has already bailed, and migrated to Canon or Nikon. Maybe they've found their market.

Maybe 99% of the people on this board don't make their living shooting photographs, and therefore it's hard to justify the outlay for a P65. But maybe if you were a catalogue house, on an in-house studio, or a working advertising photographer, the money even at $40k is a complete no-brainer. Maybe the majority of the readers of this board are medium format lovers, but with 35 budgets; maybe that's why the numerous complaints.

I took my truck in for service yesterday. The good ol' boy service manager saw my title, noticed I was a photographer, and then went into a long proud story about owning a 1dsIII and a D3 and a huge printer, and he blows thru wedding after wedding on his weekends, once he leaves the dealership. I must admit if I was honest, it was a bit puckering to hear him say that he was shooting the same camera as me.

So maybe Phase, Hasselblad, and even Sinar know what they're doing. Who knows? Maybe 1% of the readers of this board is the Medium Format target audience. Maybe Phase is laughing all the way to the bank, and already drawing up the 80MP back for next year, for $50k, knowing they'll sell them as fast as they can make them.

Just a thought.

[pixjohn]

I think they have. They can't get them!

The USB works better than the firewire, and it's a *lot* more reliable in my experience. IThe USB is only slow using the Mac OS X because of Apple messed up drivers. On Windows, or using Windows within OS X, the USB interface flies. (I returned 1D cameras about 10 times due to f*ed up firewire ports, but the 5Ds (I have 3 of them) have never had to be returned due to the USB port. And they have seen a TON of tethered use.)

Also, as to heat on the LCDs creating noise issues for the backs, Nikon made a camera with a very good LCD with the lowest noise of any  camera on the planet, so how is heat an issue there??

Why doesn't one of the back makers just come out and say why they don't upgrade the LCDs?
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