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Author Topic: Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!  (Read 76484 times)

Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #160 on: April 08, 2008, 10:03:53 am »

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Nor am I saying that. You missed my point, Nick. I'm saying that Jonathan has deliberately misrepresented those shadows for the sake of artistic effect. He's already admitted there was a fair amount of detail there. He's destroyed that detail in order to create a more persuasive impact. As regards a totally faithful representation of the scene, the image fails because those shadows are unnaturally black, just as Ken's article fails as a verbally accurate description of the precise role that camera equipment plays in the making of a photograph.

Jonathan has deliberately and knowingly distorted reality to impart greater impact to his image, in a similar way to the rhetorical method that Ken has adopted in his article.

I'll cheerfully admit that I manipulated the image of the castle tower for artistic effect. Obviously stone towers floating over a black void is not commonly encountered in what passes for "reality" in this universe. It is commonly accepted that photography for art's sake (as opposed to editorial photos or crime scene documentation) can be subjected to all sorts of such manipulations, up to and including the compositing of multiple unrelated images.

Where your argument fails is the context of Rockwell's writings. They are not in the context of a science fiction novel (although they should be), they are in the context of a web site that purports to be a serious, credible, and authoritative source of information about things photographic. Reading "The Camera Doesn't Matter" is sort of like going to a therapist because you are having difficulties dealing with a friend, and the therapist tells you that the best way to solve the problem is to go to your friend's house, impale his puppies on a large metal spike, burn his house down, and roast his puppies on the spike over the flames of his burning house. The context of being told this by a professional in the course of a counseling session is going to lead you to believe the therapist is serious, even though the advice is totally ridiculous. In contrast, if you saw that same person on stage saying the same thing while playing the character of a mentally deranged person, would you believe that he really believes what he is saying is good advice? Of course not.

My challenge to you is the same as it has been from the beginning of this discussion. Show proof from Rockwell's own words that he is not serious, that he is just exaggerating for effect, and that he doesn't really believe what he wrote. Justify your assertions and assumptions with some actual concrete evidence. Do us all a favor and end this silliness! Do it for the puppies! Or the kittens...



Just for the record, this image is an example of hyperbole...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 10:38:16 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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mrleonard

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« Reply #161 on: April 08, 2008, 01:37:19 pm »

With the exception of a few ..Ray, and Bernie West come to mind (there are a few others). No one is actually discussing my OP,using it as more a spring board for there POV on Ken's article. Perhaps, like MR, Ken just gets your back up (as Im sure I do as well)  but, my point is not germane at all...I was re-stating, or giving a re-contextualisation of the basic argument as I see it, and THIS was what was offered for discussion.Of the 9 pages..it would've only have been 2 if it had stayed on topic. Look at this and my other threads OP, it's not really discussing what most think it is.
 I have to say...this thread has been entertaining. I DO apologise for the personal barbs and insults...just being feisty in the face of adversity (and rudeness). I am new to this forum...and I will have a few technically concerned posts in the future .I'm sure they won't generate the most replies like these...lol.
 Ya gotta admit...it beats discussing the subtle bokeh of a lens, or the best way to remove chromatic abberations...
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mrleonard

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« Reply #162 on: April 08, 2008, 02:06:42 pm »

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Now that I am home and have got a grip on myself, it's all coming back to me. 
Aesthetic/Artistic.... either, or both?  I would say that aesthetics while also open to a fair amount of subjectivity is possibly more concrete than art.  Most people give a little "wow" at an impressive sunset, or mountain vista, or whatever.  Rarely would you find someone looking at a colourful sunset say "ho-hum, not beautiful".  It may not be the best sunset a person has ever seen, but most people would acknowledge the inherent beauty in a bright colourful sunset.  Now, photographed as a piece of art, well that might be a different story.

So what I am saying is if we are talking about "art" alone, then this is a different species than aesthetic, or documentary, or scientific imagery.  And infact, I so strongly believe that a good chunk of the art industry is a total wank, that I would almost agree that to produce some of the shite that passes for art, technical excellence of equipment probably often doesn't really matter.
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Good point. I should have elaborated a bit more..aesthetics/artistic. I see them as very interelated, especially in the modern world. We very quickly are exposed to new advances in technical/aesthetic improvements of sound and image via newer technology.As these improvements are quickly dispersed they simply suppplant the existant norm, and become the current de facto standard. Not necessarily 'better' per se as unless you are A/B ing them, there is no way to judge. (for ex. I prefer most of the original mixes of the beatles over these new 5.1 remixes....there is too much separation and I think it sounds better when the tracks/instruments are more merged into each other).I meant aesthetics as they relate to the artistic process for the creation of an original artwork.
 I do think the best measure of sound and image are the ears and eyes....and a lot of technically 'improved' technologies,i'm sorry, do not look or sound any better at all to me...the opposite actually.
  A lot of art..like a fine wine or aged whisky requires not only a discerning sense, but also an orientation. I don't think one can necessarily expect to understand the work of art's meaning just by looking at it. There can be subtle levels of reference and background material that the viewer may not be familiar with. Despite the appearance of some of these artworks,  most contemporary art gets vetted by a system of peer review and other cultural systems (except the occasional 'art prank' that gets through). To say that 'some of the shit that passes for art' also implies that this whole system (and the educated,learned individuals involved)is full of shit. Of course,sometimes, things pop up which are not really art at all, and done in the name of art..or some guy just said it was art. But as on the whole....even the tecnically inferior and (sometimes literally)pieces of shit are indeed art. And no...your five  year old daughter could NOT paint that modern abstract..lol.
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Ray

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« Reply #163 on: April 08, 2008, 11:04:53 pm »

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Where your argument fails is the context of Rockwell's writings.

It doesn't fail for me, Jonathan.  I have no trouble understanding the general thrust of Ken's article. I also understood very well another article written by Ken in a similar vein, something about there being no need to use a tripod with modern digital cameras.

I came across a long debate on this article on dpreview that was similar to this thread, where some posters were taking Ken so very, very literally and posting examples of their own images that clearly could not have been taken without the use of a tripod, in order to demonstrate that there were exceptions to Ken's claim and that there actually still are situations where a tripod is essential, even with high ISO, low noise DSLRs, or wide aperture, big DoF, P&S cameras.

Let's put it this way. If Ken's article was part of an English Comprehension exam at High School and one of the key questions being asked in the exam paper was, "To what aspect of the photographic process is the author referring in the title, "The Camera Doesn't Matter",

(1) The technical aspects of the photograph such as image resolution and image magnification.

(2) The artistic interest and merit of the photograph.

(3) The general interest of the photograph.

(4) None of the above.

I would have to allocate zero marks to anyone answering (1).
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 11:16:32 pm by Ray »
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Ray

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« Reply #164 on: April 08, 2008, 11:37:51 pm »

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Well actually no we're not. Art does not really enter into it. The thread title says it all. I do not consider my photography to be art, rather it is a craft, and the merit does depend in part on the tools used. Of course some photography is art, though precious little in my opinion, and I cannot pretend to speak about such photography, as I have no relevant experience.
Carried away? The entire content and thrust of Ken's article is that the camera makes no difference whatsoever to the quality of the image. He has made statements to that effect throughout his article.
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I'm sympathetic to objections to Ken's articles based on an understanding that Photography is not an art. From the viewpoint that Photography can never be more than a craft, Ken's article is baffling.

All my arguments in support of this article from Ken are based on a presumption that Photography can be and is an art. Ken's article cannot be understood from the premise that Photography is no more than a craft.

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The entire content and thrust of Ken's article is that the camera makes no difference whatsoever to the quality of the image.

That's not quite true. Here is a quote from the article acknowledging that the equipment makes at least some difference. The bold italics are mine.

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Just about any camera, regardless of how good or bad it is, can be used to create outstanding photographs for magazine covers, winning photo contests and hanging in art galleries. The quality of a lens or camera has almost nothing to do with the quality of images it can be used to produce.

"Any good modern lens is corrected for maximum definition at the larger stops. Using a small stop only increases depth..." Ansel Adams, June 3, 1937,

For decades I thought "if I only had that new lens" that all my photo wants would be satisfied. Nope. I still want that "one more lens," and I've been shooting for over 30 years. There is always one more lens. Get over it.

Now that America seems to be heading for recession, it might be a good idea if some of you were to curtail your lens lust   . (Sorry! Was that a bit under the belt.)
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bernie west

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« Reply #165 on: April 08, 2008, 11:46:30 pm »

Ray i'm baffled to know what makes your interpretation of Ken's article more right than the opposing point of view, particularly when the opposing point of view requires basically no re-interpretation of his words?  Why is your interpretation more accurate than one which takes the words at their face value, a fact which is the default position of all educational writing unless otherwise stated.  You really are running a baffling argument.  If we accept that Ken didn't infact express himself literally, then we have to accept that anyone's interpretation of his writings is a good as anyone elses.  And if that is the case then you can't possibly win your argument, and therefore shouldn't have been arguing it in the first place.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 11:47:48 pm by bernie west »
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #166 on: April 09, 2008, 01:01:46 am »

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All my arguments in support of this article from Ken are based on a presumption that Photography can be and is an art. Ken's article cannot be understood from the premise that Photography is no more than a craft.
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Exactly, and, since the rest of the articles are about lenses and technical stuff, it is not unreasonable to assume that craft is the context within which the article is written.

Given that the article is explicitly aimed at photographers rather than High School English students, the term 'quality' was, by your reasoning, evidently the wrong word to use. ZATAOMM aside, 'quality' commonly means things like tonal range, sharpness, etc, as opposed to the more nebulous and artyfarty meanings of the word.

It's a poor example of writing and communication if the article can only be understood if taken out of the context of the rest of the site.
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Nick Rains
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« Reply #167 on: April 09, 2008, 01:47:48 am »

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With the exception of a few ..Ray, and Bernie West come to mind (there are a few others). No one is actually discussing my OP,using it as more a spring board for there POV on Ken's article. Perhaps, like MR, Ken just gets your back up (as Im sure I do as well)  but, my point is not germane at all...I was re-stating, or giving a re-contextualisation of the basic argument as I see it, and THIS was what was offered for discussion.Of the 9 pages..it would've only have been 2 if it had stayed on topic. Look at this and my other threads OP, it's not really discussing what most think it is.
 I have to say...this thread has been entertaining. I DO apologise for the personal barbs and insults...just being feisty in the face of adversity (and rudeness). I am new to this forum...and I will have a few technically concerned posts in the future .I'm sure they won't generate the most replies like these...lol.
 Ya gotta admit...it beats discussing the subtle bokeh of a lens, or the best way to remove chromatic abberations...
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You are right, this has got away from your OP, there is another thread that seems to have died and been resurrected here.

You said in your OP:

"What it IS asking/saying is..."Does a technical (or material..ie..more 'expensive) improvement correlate to an aesthetic /artistic improvement". The answer it infers is NO...and I also believe it is NO..at least as far as ART is concerned(as opposed to commercial work...sometimes called 'craft')."

I'd mostly agree with your statement, as far as pure art is concerned, but I'm not entirely convinced you can eliminate the possibility that technical quality can never, ever have any bearing on aesthetic quality.

Does a technical (or material..ie..more 'expensive) improvement always correlate to an aesthetic /artistic improvement.  No.

Is it possible that a technical (or material..ie..more 'expensive) improvement might correlate to an aesthetic /artistic improvement. Yes.

However, the underlying argument in this thread is not so much this, but why some people have chosen to defend a flawed article rather than meaningfully discuss the concept it allegedly tries to explain.

The article should be dismissed, the concept itself is quite interesting.

"Ya gotta admit...it beats discussing the subtle bokeh of a lens, or the best way to remove chromatic abberations..."

Sure does...
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Nick Rains
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #168 on: April 09, 2008, 02:08:03 am »

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I'm sympathetic to objections to Ken's articles based on an understanding that Photography is not an art. From the viewpoint that Photography can never be more than a craft, Ken's article is baffling.

All my arguments in support of this article from Ken are based on a presumption that Photography can be and is an art. Ken's article cannot be understood from the premise that Photography is no more than a craft.

Where you and Ken are both wrong then, is that photography is always both Art and Craft. You can't create a photograph without a camera, the skill to operate it, and the skill to do something with the RAW or negative after the exposure. There is no such thing as photography that is "only Art" because you always have to have some equipment and technical skill or you have no photograph, in the same way that you cannot have a painting without the canvas, paints, brushes, and the technique used to apply the paint to the canvas. There is a symbiosis between Art and Craft that cannot be dismissed; Craft is always the foundation on which the Art is built, and if there is no Craft, then there can be no Art. There is a huge body of photography that is lacking in both Art and Craft, and a similarly large body that has a degree of Craft but little in the way of Art (the proverbial "sharp image of a fuzzy concept"). Then you have the work of masters such as Ansel Adams, which has a high degree of both Art and Craft.

Please note that I am not defining images with "a high degree of Craft" as noise-free, perfectly sharp, and having perfectly true-to-life color. Craft is knowing what tools and techniques to use to realize one's artistic vision as fully as possible, with the fewest possible deviations from the original intent; choosing the appropriate tools and the appropriate techniques to capture and create the Art. If the artistic intent requires a significant degree of blurring and noise/grain to achieve the intended effect, then choosing a Holga as the tool that most efficiently realizes this intent is good Craft. Conversely, if the intended end result is a large, detailed image free of blur, aberrations, and artificial textures (AKA noise/grain) so that the texture and detail of the subject can engage the viewer, then choosing a Holga would be bad Craft. Similarly, choosing an 8x10 view camera to photograph birds in flight or X Games action would also be bad Craft.

You've compared camera and lens to an artist's brush as a metaphor to demonstrate that camera doesn't matter, but that analogy actually argues against you. Choosing the wrong camera is just like using a wide-tipped brush for detailing the eyelashes of the subject. Sure, you can do that, but the effect you'll get will be much different than if you use a fine-tipped brush to paint in the fine details. And you can use a fine-tipped brush to fill in large areas of background, but using a wide brush will get the job done a lot faster. The brush matters, and so does the camera.

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That's not quite true. Here is a quote from the article acknowledging that the equipment makes at least some difference.

"Just about any camera, regardless of how good or bad it is, can be used to create outstanding photographs for magazine covers, winning photo contests and hanging in art galleries. The quality of a lens or camera has almost nothing to do with the quality of images it can be used to produce."

Great. You have one one quote from the article that, if interpreted a certain way, leaves a small crack of wiggle room that the equipment might make some unspecified small difference. But it gets lost in the din of Rockwell's numerous other unconditional, absolutist pronouncements to the contrary. It's perhaps enough to excuse Rockwell from the charge that he enthusiastically believes that the camera never matters under any circumstance, but not enough to excuse him from the charge of being a bad writer who fails to adequately explore the limitations of the "camera doesn't matter" concept and discuss some situations where the camera does matter, or at least might matter, to avoid leading the inexperienced astray. And the portion is small enough that it is easily missed, in which case the reader will be left with the wrong impression unless he has enough experience to properly filter the bovine excrement that permeates much of the rest of the article.

Rockwell and others have cited numerous examples of photographic Art that was created with tools that are less than the best in the areas of resolution and noise. But no one has offered any real insight or analysis into this question:

Does the image succeed as Art because of or in spite of the technical imperfections of the tools used to create it?

Yes, some artistically acclaimed images have been captured with cell phones and Holgas and pinhole cameras and other similar types of gear. But that does not prove that the images could not have been better artistically if they were shot with a DSLR or MFDB. It's equally possible that the images manage to struggle through their technical baggage and engage the viewer anyway, or that they are simply pretentious crap whose primary claim to merit is the novelty of the tool used to capture them. But regardless of the answer to the question, the choice of tool matters. If the answer is "because of", then the tool mattered because it was the most straightforward option to create the particular "look" desired. If the answer is "in spite of", then choosing a more capable tool would have probably made it easier for the photographer to achieve his desired artistic result. In either case, the choice of tool has some effect on the final image, either desirable or undesirable, or some combination of both. You cannot separate Craft and Art; Craft is always the foundation for Art.
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Ray

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« Reply #169 on: April 09, 2008, 02:17:27 am »

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Ray i'm baffled to know what makes your interpretation of Ken's article more right than the opposing point of view, particularly when the opposing point of view requires basically no re-interpretation of his words?  Why is your interpretation more accurate than one which takes the words at their face value, a fact which is the default position of all educational writing unless otherwise stated.  You really are running a baffling argument.  If we accept that Ken didn't infact express himself literally, then we have to accept that anyone's interpretation of his writings is a good as anyone elses.  And if that is the case then you can't possibly win your argument, and therefore shouldn't have been arguing it in the first place.
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Okay, I'll try and explain as briefly and as simply as I can. There's science and there is art (or the arts). Science and technology are divided into many distinct but overlapping disciplines, each with its own precisely defined vocabulary of technical terms which are often chosen from the dead languages of ancient Greece and Rome so that they can retain their ascribed meaning and be resistant to the inevitable evolutionary (and abusive) change in meaning, over time, that words are subject to when they are frequently used in every day life for common purposes, by the newspapers, TV, novels, and everyone who speaks the language.

It's absolutely essential to have precisely defined terms that have as few different shades of meaning as possible, when doing science.

The opposite seems to apply when doing anything which is not science, technology or craft. The more varied the shades of meaning of words, the richer the language is considered to be. A poem consisting of less than a hundred words can generate countless millions of words of commentary and interpretation and reinterpretation from one generation to the next. The same applies to religious texts which have this same quality of always needing interpretation and reinterpretation.

Science is predominantly a left brain activity. Art and religion is predominantly a right brain activity. There is, of course, considerable interaction and overlapping between these two halves, which varies from one individual to another. But the fact that two different areas of the brain have been identified as having largely different roles in understanding these broadly different cultures, Science and Art, seems very profound to me.

When trying to understand a technical piece of writing, it may be necessary to learn the vocabulary first. That's the key.

When trying to understand a non-technical piece of writing, an essay, an editorial in a newspaper, a regular piece by any columnist, a novel, poem etc, it helps to determine the intent behind the writing. One has to try and get under the author's skin; work out from the context what he/she's really trying to say; what's the message, general thrust.

To take an extreme example, viewing a sitcom on TV as a serious drama would result in a serious misinterpretation of the program. You'd very quickly draw the conclusion that what you were watching was a load of boring tripe, and switch channels. This is why sitcoms have very obvious clues that the program is a comedy. Canned laughter. I find it annoying but have to accept that without it, some folks might just not realise that what they are watching is supposed to be a comedy.

Now, I'm not saying that Ken's piece is intended to be a comedy. But it is intended to be entertaining and controversial. It's definitely not a technical piece and those who take his words at face value will obviously misunderstand his intent.

He is using the art of rhetoric to convey a message as persuasively as he can, that there's a 'disconnect' between the general and artistic worth of a photographic image and the sophistication of the camera equipment which was used in producing it. That's all.
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Nick Rains

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« Reply #170 on: April 09, 2008, 02:35:17 am »

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He is using the art of rhetoric to convey a message as persuasively as he can, that there's a 'disconnect' between the general and artistic worth of a photographic image and the sophistication of the camera equipment which was used in producing it. That's all.
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I'm not as generous as you Ray, you give KR too much credit. I reckon there is no 'art of rhetoric' there at all, it's simply a poorly argued and written rant.
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Nick Rains
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Ray

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« Reply #171 on: April 09, 2008, 02:43:59 am »

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Where you and Ken are both wrong then, is that photography is always both Art and Craft. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a very left-brained comment, Jonathan. Do you mean that the average snapshot is 99.9% craft and 0.1% art, the 99.9% craft being the camera?.

Some experts believe that photography is not art. This is opinion. It's not a matter of right or wrong and the word 'art' has a very,very long definition in the Oxford English dictionary.
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bernie west

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« Reply #172 on: April 09, 2008, 02:50:56 am »

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This is the greatest work of art in the history of mankind ...

http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/...ntal-value.html

I can't afford one or I would proudly own one.
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By the way, I had no idea my description of art being sometimes "shite" could actually have a literal interpretation as well!  I am crapping in a can as we speak!

ps. for the yanks, by "can" i meant a small recepticle, not the bathroom/toilet it means in your part of the world
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 02:52:55 am by bernie west »
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bernie west

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« Reply #173 on: April 09, 2008, 03:15:19 am »

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That's a very left-brained comment, Jonathan. Do you mean that the average snapshot is 99.9% craft and 0.1% art, the 99.9% craft being the camera?.

Some experts believe that photography is not art. This is opinion. It's not a matter of right or wrong and the word 'art' has a very,very long definition in the Oxford English dictionary.
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I think Jonathan is right.  You can't seperate visual art from craft.  How do you create art without materials and skill (I use that term advisedly)?
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Slough

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« Reply #174 on: April 09, 2008, 03:29:24 am »

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I'm sympathetic to objections to Ken's articles based on an understanding that Photography is not an art. From the viewpoint that Photography can never be more than a craft, Ken's article is baffling.

All my arguments in support of this article from Ken are based on a presumption that Photography can be and is an art. Ken's article cannot be understood from the premise that Photography is no more than a craft.
That's not quite true. Here is a quote from the article acknowledging that the equipment makes at least some difference. The bold italics are mine.
Now that America seems to be heading for recession, it might be a good idea if some of you were to curtail your lens lust   . (Sorry! Was that a bit under the belt.)
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Your stance does not make sense.

Many of us here interpret Ken according to his words, using quotes to prove our assertions. This is not a literal interpretation as you disingenuously claim, but rather an interpretation based on the evidence. We base our understanding of his views on his writing.  

You interpret Ken according to what you THINK he meant, rather than what he wrote.  The only way you can get his writing to say what you assert it means is by inserting your words. In other words, you need to change the text in order to force your interpretation onto the writing. What you are doing is not interpretation, it is re-writing.

As someone else has said, I think you have concluded that Ken is not stupid, and since the he article is full of stupid assertions, you have decided to re-interpret it to make sense. But the only way you can do that is by chopping and changing the content.

Why don't you just admit that it is the literary equivalent of tinned crap instead of having to use weasel words? It is quite simply a badly written rambling pile of nonsense.
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Slough

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« Reply #175 on: April 09, 2008, 03:31:09 am »

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I think Jonathan is right.  You can't seperate visual art from craft.  How do you create art without materials and skill (I use that term advisedly)?
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Most things in life are 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. I am sure that was the case with Michaelangelo. In fact in the past artists often used assistants, and the 'artist' would do little more than finish off the work.
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Ray

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« Reply #176 on: April 09, 2008, 03:43:00 am »

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I think Jonathan is right.  You can't seperate visual art from craft.  How do you create art without materials and skill (I use that term advisedly)?
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What nonsense! If you can't separate visual art from craft, then all photographs have equal merit. Even Jonathan seems to give some weight to Ansel Adams' statement, "There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept".

The sharpness of an image is part of the craft, and the concept is part of the art.
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bernie west

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« Reply #177 on: April 09, 2008, 03:48:10 am »

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What nonsense! If you can't separate visual art from craft, then all photographs have equal merit.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do you think you are arguing with lightweights?  Your arguing skills are highschool at best.  Between the percentages of 0 and 100 there is plenty of room to seperate photographs of different artistic merit.
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Ray

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #178 on: April 09, 2008, 03:57:22 am »

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You interpret Ken according to what you THINK he meant, rather than what he wrote.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do indeed. It's a trick I have of keeping my sanity. When it comes to art, or shall we say anything non-scientific or non-technical, it can be disastrous to interpret words literally, especially where religion is concerned and even with my ex-wife.

The world's in a heck of a mess through people interpreting common words literally. You have to get some background information on the person making the common-word statements and look at the article or opinion in a general context.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 03:58:53 am by Ray »
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Ray

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #179 on: April 09, 2008, 04:13:37 am »

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Between the percentages of 0 and 100 there is plenty of room to seperate photographs of different artistic merit.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course there is. Your comment was about separating craft and artistic merit. You wrote that they can't be separated. If that's the case then a sharp image with a fuzzy concept has equal merit to a fuzzy image with a sharp concept.

Ken's point is that almost any camera can be used to take an 'at least reasonably sharp' image of a sharp concept. The concept matters far more than the incrementally greater sharpness one might get from more sophisticated equipment. That's not difficult to understand, is it?
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