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Author Topic: Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!  (Read 68200 times)

bernie west

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #180 on: April 09, 2008, 04:14:30 am »

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The sharpness of an image is part of the craft, and the concept is part of the art.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

and without either part there is no final product.
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bernie west

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« Reply #181 on: April 09, 2008, 04:16:17 am »

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Of course there is. Your comment was about separating craft and artistic merit. You wrote that they can't be separated. If that's the case then a sharp image with a fuzzy concept has equal merit to a fuzzy image with a sharp concept.

Ken's point is that almost any camera can be used to take an 'at least reasonably sharp' image of a sharp concept. The concept matters far more than the incrementally greater sharpness one might get from more sophisticated equipment. That's not difficult to understand, is it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Look at Nick Rains work.  Do you think it would benefit from a bit of lens softness?
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Slough

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #182 on: April 09, 2008, 04:28:03 am »

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I do indeed. It's a trick I have of keeping my sanity. When it comes to art, or shall we say anything non-scientific or non-technical, it can be disastrous to interpret words literally, especially where religion is concerned and even with my ex-wife.

The world's in a heck of a mess through people interpreting common words literally. You have to get some background information on the person making the common-word statements and look at the article or opinion in a general context.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What nonsense. Ken was not talking about art. He was talking about photography (which may indeed contain an element of art).

What you are doing is fundamentally changing the meaning. Why should anyone believe your re-writing of the article in preference to the article itself? One thing I was taught when I worked in research was to go back to the original sources, not works derived from them. If someone has such poor writing skills that their work is nonsense unless re-written, then they should go to writing classes or give up. I suggest you do the same with your reading comprehension which is poor.
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Ray

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« Reply #183 on: April 09, 2008, 06:38:52 am »

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What nonsense. Ken was not talking about art. He was talking about photography (which may indeed contain an element of art).

What you are doing is fundamentally changing the meaning. Why should anyone believe your re-writing of the article in preference to the article itself? One thing I was taught when I worked in research was to go back to the original sources, not works derived from them. If someone has such poor writing skills that their work is nonsense unless re-written, then they should go to writing classes or give up. I suggest you do the same with your reading comprehension which is poor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll stick with my comprehension skills which find meaning where yours don't, thankyou. To be able to comprehend where others can't, is an asset in my opinon.

Ken's article has meaning for me. If it has no meaning for you, then you are the worse off, in my view.
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Ray

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« Reply #184 on: April 09, 2008, 06:51:39 am »

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and without either part there is no final product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188157\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course. Why do you people keep stating the obvious? Anyone who, after reading Ken's article, got the impression they could take a photograph without using a camera of some sort, should not ever contemplate getting into photography. The article was not addressed to complete morons, but to those somewhat misguided people to try to compensate for their lack of artistic talent by buying ever more sophisticated cameras, each one just marginally better than the previous camera or lens.
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Jonathan Wienke

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Your camera definately,still,does NOT matter!!!
« Reply #185 on: April 09, 2008, 07:20:15 am »

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When trying to understand a technical piece of writing, it may be necessary to learn the vocabulary first. That's the key.

When trying to understand a non-technical piece of writing, an essay, an editorial in a newspaper, a regular piece by any columnist, a novel, poem etc, it helps to determine the intent behind the writing. One has to try and get under the author's skin; work out from the context what he/she's really trying to say; what's the message, general thrust.

The vocabulary used is obvious, written by a photographer to other photographers. The same is true of the message, general thrust, what he's really trying to say. It's quite obvious, as it is repeated over and over and over again. The camera doesn't matter.

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If you can't separate visual art from craft, then all photographs have equal merit.

That is a really retarded thing to say; and is a gross misreading of what I posted. Just because all photographs have some degree of both Art and Craft does NOT mean than all photos are equal. Think of it this way:

Merit = Art * Craft

A typical snapshot has little merit because the values of Art and Craft are both low. A typical cat-subject lens test photo has a fairly high Craft value, but a low Art value. A thoughtfully composed landscape image that is excessively blurred because the focus ring on the lens was accidentally bumped just prior to exposure has a high Art value and a low Craft value. But in all cases the ultimate Merit of the image is low because one or both of the components is lacking. Then we have an Ansel Adams masterpiece, where Art and Craft are both present in large amounts, and the resulting level of Merit is quite high as well. Now do not forget that I do not define a high level of Craft exclusively as low noise, sharply focused, and accurate color, but rather as skillfully using whatever techniques help bring about the intended artistic effect. Whether that means adding some grain or other artificial texture, altering the color balance creatively, shallow DoF (think Mark Tucker here), unusual tonal adjustments (like my castle tower shot), or any other possible image adjustment, as long as it enhances the intended artistic effect, then it counts as good Craft.

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When it comes to art, or shall we say anything non-scientific or non-technical, it can be disastrous to interpret words literally, especially where religion is concerned and even with my ex-wife.

The world's in a heck of a mess through people interpreting common words literally. You have to get some background information on the person making the common-word statements and look at the article or opinion in a general context.

On the contrary, it can be said with much greater validity that the world is in trouble because many people fail to interpret plain language with its obvious literal meaning, and thereby redefine fellatio as something other than "sexual relations" and reinterpret passages of the Koran and other holy books to something other than their obvious literal intent, thereby justifying the murder of children, beheadings, setting bombs in public places, etc. Politicians, solicitors, and terrorists all excel at this. Are you sure you wish to put yourself in the same category?

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Ray

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« Reply #186 on: April 09, 2008, 07:28:53 am »

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Look at Nick Rains work.  Do you think it would benefit from a bit of lens softness?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nick's images are very impressive. I wish I had taken some of those shots he has on his web site, but why do you ask if they would be improved by a bit of lens softness? Did Ken convey the meaning that soft lenses actually improve your work? I missed that comment. Can you quote the relevant sentence or paragraph?

Soft lenses are sometimes preferred for portraiture, aren't they?

Image sharpness seems to me to be relevant to the print size you intend making and the placement of that print in relation to the viewer. If you have an impressive image with a sharp concept that you think is spoiled because the lens was not as sharp as you would have liked, then it might be advisable to make only small prints, A4 or A3 in size.

If you prefer to view large prints from a distance, as I do, then it might be advisable to place it carefully in such a way that makes it difficult for the viewer, who may judge the quality of a photograph mainly by its sharpness, to approach it up close. That might be considered as part of the art of picture placement.
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bernie west

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« Reply #187 on: April 09, 2008, 07:30:08 am »

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Ken's article has meaning for me. If it has no meaning for you, then you are the worse off, in my view.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Who is saying it has no meaning?  On the contrary, most of us agree on it's meaning.  It is you who seems to be all alone on this one.  If that is an asset, then good luck to you.
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bernie west

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« Reply #188 on: April 09, 2008, 07:37:10 am »

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Nick's images are very impressive. I wish I had taken some of those shots he has on his web site, but why do you ask if they would be improved by a bit of lens softness? Did Ken convey the meaning that soft lenses actually improve your work? I missed that comment. Can you quote the relevant sentence or paragraph?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I quote you:
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Ken's point is that almost any camera can be used to take an 'at least reasonably sharp' image of a sharp concept. The concept matters far more than the incrementally greater sharpness one might get from more sophisticated equipment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188156\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I put it to you that Nicks images wouldn't have the same impact and, in my opinion, the same artistic merit, if they weren't captured with such sharp details and on such high saturation film.  I don't think a point and shoot loaded with portrait film would quite suffice for the brilliance of Nicks work.
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Ray

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« Reply #189 on: April 09, 2008, 07:49:57 am »

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On the contrary, most of us agree on it's meaning.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That the camera literally does not matter at all, in any respect whatsoever, to the taking of a photo, actually has meaning for you? You find meaning in such interpretations? Wow! And you think I'm the one who has been smoking pot   .
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bernie west

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« Reply #190 on: April 09, 2008, 08:00:11 am »

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That the camera literally does not matter at all, in any respect whatsoever, to the taking of a photo, actually has meaning for you? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eh?  Did you misspell there?  To the vast majority of us the camera literally DOES matter.  You're the one who has been arguing that it doesn't matter.  Perhaps you HAVE been smoking pot!?!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 08:02:03 am by bernie west »
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Ray

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« Reply #191 on: April 09, 2008, 08:09:27 am »

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I quote you:
I put it to you that Nicks images wouldn't have the same impact and, in my opinion, the same artistic merit, if they weren't captured with such sharp details and on such high saturation film.  I don't think a point and shoot loaded with portrait film would quite suffice for the brilliance of Nicks work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188181\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's impossible to judge how sharp Nick's images are from the small jpegs on his web site, so how can I answer you. Color and saturation can be created to taste in Photoshop or scanning software such as SilverFast. As I've already tried to explain, a large print from 35mm film, say 33"x22" can look impressive from a suitable distance. If you view such prints from the distance you would read a book, then they might not appear as sharp as you would like, but then such large prints cannot be fully appreciated from such a close distance, if they have a concept.

I notice the largest print size that Nick offers seem to be around 32" wide.
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bernie west

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« Reply #192 on: April 09, 2008, 08:10:39 am »

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That the camera literally does not matter at all, in any respect whatsoever, to the taking of a photo, actually has meaning for you? You find meaning in such interpretations?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok, sorry, I see what you were saying here.  The meaning to be found is that the camera matters very little.  By my understanding Ken is given to hyperbole upon occasions.  Now before you jump in and say "Ha! Now who is interpreting?", myself and others are interpreting only very slightly, and our interpretation varies only very slightly from his literal words.  Your interpretation, however, bares no resemblance to what he actually said.  So, apparantly I am backtracking again , and am claiming that our interpretation is better than yours.  Well at least our interpretation is backed up by evidence.
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bernie west

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« Reply #193 on: April 09, 2008, 08:15:44 am »

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Color and saturation can be created to taste in Photoshop or scanning software such as SilverFast. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nick states he does no post processing further to development.

So are you saying you could replicate Nicks work (and lets say we assume that it IS tack sharp for the print size and suitable distance) out-of-camera with a point and shoot and some expired portrait film?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 08:17:02 am by bernie west »
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Ray

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« Reply #194 on: April 09, 2008, 08:24:17 am »

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That is a really retarded thing to say; and is a gross misreading of what I posted. Just because all photographs have some degree of both Art and Craft does NOT mean than all photos are equal. Think of it this way:

Merit = Art * Craft

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188177\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jonathan,
Please try to tell us something that everyone doesn't already know. We all know that photography involves combinations of technique, choice of subject matter, choice of equipment, treatment of subject matter, degrees of artistic judgement as well as sometimes sheer luck and so on.

There's no need to keep repeating the obvious, that you need a camera to take a photograph and that any camera is not necessarily a suitable tool for all tasks.

We understand that. We're not as retarded as you think
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TaoMaas

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« Reply #195 on: April 09, 2008, 08:25:40 am »

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Your interpretation, however, bares no resemblance to what he actually said.  So, apparantly I am backtracking again , and am claiming that our interpretation is better than yours.  Well at least our interpretation is backed up by evidence.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If Ray's interpretation is wrong, then what do you think Adams, Evans, Haas, and Feininger were trying to communicate in the quotes attributed to them?
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bernie west

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« Reply #196 on: April 09, 2008, 08:35:38 am »

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If Ray's interpretation is wrong, then what do you think Adams, Evans, Haas, and Feininger were trying to communicate in the quotes attributed to them?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188194\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think you're confused.  Although I am glad that Ray has got someone else in here on his side.
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Ray

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« Reply #197 on: April 09, 2008, 08:46:08 am »

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Nick states he does no post processing further to development.

So are you saying you could replicate Nicks work (and lets say we assume that it IS tack sharp for the print size and suitable distance) out-of-camera with a point and shoot and some expired portrait film?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188192\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I take it you mean, if I was there at the time, in front of the same scene that Nick shot, in possession of Nick's 'artistic eye' and concept for the photo, could I reproduce the shot he took, using a P&S?

Probably. But I don't like to boast and I would not choose to do things the hard way. When the scene is static, as in a landscape, resolution can be increased by using a longer focal length and stitching a number of images, and any DR limitation of the camera can be overcome by bracketing exposures.

I've always admitted that there are certain subjects that need specialised equipment such as macro shots, telephoto shots, fast action in low light. Again, that's obvious.
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TaoMaas

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« Reply #198 on: April 09, 2008, 08:48:39 am »

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I think you're confused.  Although I am glad that Ray has got someone else in here on his side.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So what were they saying?  Why were those quotes in the article?
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Ray

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« Reply #199 on: April 09, 2008, 09:01:03 am »

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You're the one who has been arguing that it doesn't matter.  [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No. I'm the one who has been finding meaning in such a statement, by using a bit of nous, and the meaning is not that the camera literally has no relevance whatsoever to the taking of a photograph. I don't find that reading or interpretation at all meaningful, but some people obviously do.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2008, 09:05:12 am by Ray »
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