Defective Breathing Color Canvas

[ternst]

I've been using Breathing Color canvas since last summer and love it. The company used to be great to deal with but lately any problems I've had have fallen on deaf ears and I've received zero support from customer service. They keep telling me I will get replacement rolls or credit but nothing happens. When I asked to speak to someone else up the line (after nearly six months of issues) I was told that everything would have to go through this one guy's desk that I had already been dealing with, and that he was the "national sales manager." So far he has done nothing, and the things he keeps telling me never seem to happen.

Anyway, there are lines on the last few feet of every roll of canvas I have ever received from them, including several rolls that had these lines the last 15'. BC recognizes this as an issue and said it is caused by the line of tape on the cardboard core that holds the end of the canvas to it - told me my rolls must have been "wound too tight at the factory" yet every roll has this to some degree. I submitted a "ticket" with the Breathing Color return department as instructed back on September 24th. I was told then I would receive replacement rolls right away. Today is March 4th and nothing ever happened. As the months went on I kept asking about the defective rolls and my replacements, and ordering more canvas since I love the stuff. Nothing has ever happened. Eventually I found out that the guys I had been dealing with "left" the company and so I started dealing with new guys. Nothing has ever happened. Three weeks ago when I placed another large order with BC the new guy assured me that I would be issued a credit for the defective canvas that day. Nothing ever happened. In that last order they sent me the wrong varnish (matte instead of gloss), and one entire 44" roll had been damaged at the factory. I submitted a "ticket" again as instructed last week. Nothing has happened, despite being told I would be issued an RMA and call tag labels "within four hours." The national sales guy continues to tell me that he will take care of the issue. BC seems to be very good at taking my orders and money but not so good when the products they ship me are defective.  

So I have lost total confidence in the management of Breathing Color, both sales and especially customer service. I still love the product, but don't know what to do. Should I continue to put up with this nonsense and just eat the last few feet of every roll and anything else they send me that is defective? What do you guys do with that last few feet of defective canvas?

And does anyone who has used BC canvas and their varnish found another brand of canvas with the same final look to your images? I love BC canvas since the surface is smooth and the d-max and sharpness are terrific - I do not like the look of other canvas products I have used, including the standard bearer, Epson. I would welcome any thoughts.

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
http://www.Cloudland.net

Here is a photo that shows the lines at the end of the roll, and what happens if you print on that part of the roll that has been as much as 15' of defective canvas on a single roll.

 [attachment=5391:attachment]

[jpgentry]

You can find similar or better quality, the problem i finding it at their 3 or 10 roll price.

I've compromised gamut a bit and gone with the Fredrix 901WR.  There are some issues every so often but for the most part it's very consistent.

-Jonathan

[Dward]

You mention that you like BC's smooth surface.  Have you tried Inkaid 901 canvas?  It's the smoothest surface I've seen.  I also like Sihl 3948 Instant Dry Satin.  Not as smooth, but an elegant finish.

David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com

[mballent]

Even if you love the stuff, eating the last 15 feet of product is going to get expensive, not to mention the cost of ink as you possibly run into the defective part of the roll.  Since you seem to purchase a lot of the canvas, when you order the next round demand a reduction in price to offset the losses you have experienced before you pay them any money.  The bad part is that you have to be prepared to walk away and never buy their product if they cannot remedy the situation.  If you keep getting faulty rolls and you keep letting them play with you then all you are doing is enabling them to continue producing faulty product.  I do not print on canvas, but your issues are now firmly planted in my mind for BC canvas.  That is at least how I would handle the situation.

[ternst]

THANKS for all of your comments!

<<You can find similar or better quality, the problem i finding it at their 3 or 10 roll price.

I've compromised gamut a bit and gone with the Fredrix 901WR.>>

That is what I'm looking for - similar or better quality, but it sounds like the Fredrix is NOT. Can you tell me what you have found that is? I would love to try some.

<<Have you tried Inkaid 901 canvas?>>

No, I have not. How does it compare with Breathing Color?

<<when you order the next round demand a reduction in price to offset the losses you have experienced before you pay them any money. The bad part is that you have to be prepared to walk away and never buy their product if they cannot remedy the situation.>>

I've been trying to get something like that done now for six months and they just don't seem to care, and you are correct, I am not able to walk away from them right now until I find something as good - hence this note here.

UPDATE. The "director of national sales" this morning sent me an e-mail stating he really needed to speak with me about "something I should know" and he does not want to put in into an e-mail. Hum, that is kind of fishy. I really don't like doing business with people like this and have no idea what is going on with Breathing Color but it does not sound good - especially since every roll of canvas they have sent me in six months has been defective. I hate to compromise my images with poorer quality canvas. I guess BC has me by the short hairs so far!

I would like to ask again how any of you deal with these lines on the canvas - do you just eat them, or have any of you submitted a "ticket" for defective rolls?

THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR THOUGHTS!

Tim Ernst in Arkansas

[Brian Gilkes]

There are lots of good canvasses. Most paper manufacturers do not make canvas, but coat it. It's the coating that determines how the ink is accepted. Intellicoat  don't manufacture directly but seem to source well. They recently purchased the Crane fine art paper division. I'm not sure if that included Crane canvas, but both Intellicoat and Crane have sold good canvasses. The Crane gloss seems unique- but that could change any day! Hahnemuhle and Arches also have excellent reputations. You should get some samples and test them . Make sure you get custom profiles and also see how they stretch- some coatings crack, and sometimes fibres seperate. Good canvas may cost a bit more. Media contributes  to cost but is only a part of it. My approach is to source the highest quality media irrespective of cost. BTW Fredrix make very good canvas. I have printed a couple of large jobs on this canvas and had no problems at all with print quality.
Good Luck
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au

[ternst]

Thanks, Brian. Yes, that is exactly why I use Breathing Color - they are the best., and the cost doesn't concern me as much as the optical quality in the end, and also that the canvas NOT be 100% cotton since this will tend to stretch with time and that causes all sorts of issues.

I was hoping someone with BC experience could let me know their thoughts on any other canvas they think is as good, and what they have done about the defective end of the rolls - so far no one has come forward with that info, but I know it is early yet. I don't think any of those canvases that you noted will yield as good an optical image as the BC canvas, but I would love to be proven wrong!

Thanks as always for any thoughts...

Tim Ernst

[Colorwave]

Tim-
I think you have a z3100.  Have you tried HP's Professional Matte Canvas?  I'm not a fan of shiny canvas, and like the smoothness of this canvas, the matte finish, as well as the way it takes the ink on my Z.  FWIW:  I haven't tried Breathing Color's canvas.
-Ron H.

[Paul2660]

The lines you show are common on all the canvas I have used.  

Epson, Lexjet.   Both will show this effect, not quite as harsh as your picture.  However you can't print on it most times.  I have always felt it's due to pressure from the end piece pushing through the canvas since there is a set gap between the marks.

I can also state that Lexjet's sunset gloss and matte canvas are excellent with the K3 inkset.  Customer service is good also.  

Paul C

[ternst]

Hey Ron, thanks for the suggestion, and yes, I have a z, and have not tried their canvas - it is actually THICKER at 22 mils than the BC canvas, and that is pretty thick! Unfortunately they don't have this available in 44" rolls, which means the max size I could sell would only be a 36" stretched canvas instead of 38" - size does matter to my bottom line. I guess I could always by an Epson 11880 and use 60"...

Thanks for the info Paul - have you ever used BC canvas for comparison? They tell me the lines are due to the strip of double-sided tape that runs the entire length of the roll and that makes sense, but not 15' worth of it, and not if I am paying for 40' of good canvas unless they send me 45' or 55' to compensate.

I can't wait to hear back from their national sales manager to find out the secret stuff he will only tell me over the phone - perhaps I will never find out...

[Mark Graf]

Thanks for the heads up about this Tim.
I have had a roll of BC canvas sitting around until I used up my roll of Fredrix 901 WR.  I was going to start into the BC soon.   Now it seems I have to be wary of this issue at the end of the roll.  I do hope you will post what you find out.

I must say my initial experience with BC was so-so on the customer service front.  I had several inquiries going unanswered when I was first investigating their products.

[ternst]

UPDATE this afternoon. My situation has been elevated to the president of the company - those guys always seem to get people to listen to them! Turns out their "national sales director" was lying to everyone about my issues for some unknown reason - I can't image why - and actually never did a single thing about my defective products. And while it sounds like all of the replacement canvas and varnish are now on their way to me there still remains a question of what the secret information that I "needed to know" is, and also the question of the lines on the canvas. Someone here eluded to the fact that those same lines appear on all rolls of canvas from any manufacturer, however I still don't buy that as being normal unless all of these rolls are actually longer than they advertise - if it is normal to have 5' of bad canvas on the end of every roll then is the 40' foot roll that I pay for actually 45'? I'm told this line situation will be explained to me later this afternoon by someone from BC and I'll let you know what that turns out to be.

So for the moment it looks like I screamed loud and long enough to finally get the attention from someone at top of this company - and they seem to be bending over backwards to make sure the problem is corrected immediately - I appreciate their efforts to make up for their "national sales director" being such a jerk. I still can't for the life of my figure out why they have gone to so much trouble over what will amount to be less then $100 out of their pocket.

Mark:

The very first issue I had with BC last summer was resolved in about ten seconds and they shipped me a replacement item right away with no questions asked. Then back in September it seemed like they had done a complete turn around. I like to think that my situation was isolated and is in no way indicative of the company as a whole - and I will do business with them again - so far I've not found any other canvas that matches theirs for image quality, and after all that is what it is all about, at least with me. I will let you know that I found out about the lines.



ONE MORE ITEM. I was told on Monday that their matte varnish does NOT have any UV protection in it at all and that you absolutely can't use it alone for this reason. So if anyone is using matte-only, be sure to add some gloss to it...

[ternst]

OK, final update I hope. The president of BC says that some lines on the end of a roll of canvas are the industry standard (caused by the roll being wound too tight at the factory), but if you get 2' - 4' or more length of canvas that is affected by this then you should consider it defective and submit a "ticket" to be reimbursed for this loss. He says they are "working" on a fix but for now we all will just have to live with it. I suggested he simply add more to the length of each roll to compensate but I have a feeling that idea won't get very far. ALL rolls of canvas I have ever received from BC have had at least 3'-4' or more of these lines, yet with the six-month hassle I have just been through with them to try to recover for just two rolls it is a hardship I probably will pass on - however I guess if everyone who gets defective paper like this were to submit tickets and request a pro-rated refund, they might stand up and take notice and actually try to do something about this.

So far no one has shown me anything that is as good as the BC canvas, but I'm still open to suggestions from anyone who has compared the BC canvas with something else and found the other to be at least as good - for folks who have never used the BC canvas with the Glamour II varnish you really can't make any comparisons - that is like comparing apples to walnuts. I would love to find an alternative.

THANKS for all of your comments and suggestions, and please submit a "ticket" if you get any defective length of BC canvas at the end of your roll...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
http://www.BuffaloRiverGallery.com

[nickdavis]

I've had my own issues with Breathing Color, back in June 2006. We were opening our store, and had printed all our samples on Breathing Color Natural. When we needed more, we were told they stopped selling it, too bad for us. Then they said we shouldn't have been using it in the first place. wtf?

I was in the same boat as you - who else was there? I switched to Chromata White and was relatively happy, until I found the best (imho...) glossy canvas at PMA last year, which happens to be DAS Geo Canvas from Digital Art Supplies. It might not be right for you, but we've found it to be gorgeous, problemless (I was told it is not an imported canvas like BC and most of the rest - can anyone confirm this?). It's about $2/foot, but well worth it for us. It stretches well, and just 2 coats of printshield, and has not cracked around the edges yet, like most of the other canvases have. I recommend trying a sample roll.

http://www.digitalartsupplies.com/store/DA...ssy_Canvas.html

It seems like I had some problem with BC on every order. We have been very happy since our switch.

Also: are you keeping the canvas on the spindle inserts in the box after use? I've seen your problem when a roll is laid directly on its site for too long.

[Doyle Yoder]

DAS Geo Canvas is 14 mils thick. That is pretty thin as far as canvas goes isn't it?

Doyle

[Paul2660]

Hey Tim,

I didn't even realize it was you who posted originally.

I went back to my last roll of Lexjet sunset Gloss, The last 30 Inches or so are just like yours, however the indents are not as deep and you can still print on it.  At least I have.

On Epson, the glossy water resistant canvas, the indents are deeper and you really can't print on it.  

It also appears that the Lexjet canvas is a heavier weave and thus may not have the same pressure problem.  Epson on their paper sheet that comes with the roll claims that you can't use the first 20" and last 3 to 4 feet!  I hadn't even read that sheet until last night.

If you like I can send you info on the Lexjet sunset gloss.  I think you will like it.  They make a matte and a gloss and so far I love the gloss.  It's has a very subtitle effect not as harsh as the Epson and it gives a more glossy look to the print IMO.

Paul Caldwell

[ternst]

Hey Paul, I didn't realize it was YOU! I looked at the sunset canvas and my goodness it is expensive - nearly twice what BC canvas is. I actually use the BC matte and spray with their special gloss varnish and the results are just wonderful. What do you finish your canvas with? Do they discount for large orders?

Nick:

<<Also: are you keeping the canvas on the spindle inserts in the box after use? I've seen your problem when a roll is laid directly on its site for too long.>>

Hum, I keep the canvas hung to cure and spray and then stretch it after use - it never gets put back into the box once it is taken out but rather used up. This issue is one of the canvas being rolled too tight at the factory not misuse by a user (although you wouldn't think just laying a roll down on its side would mess it up, but you are probably correct!).

That 14mil Geo Canvas sounds good but it is really THIN compared to the rest, and even more expensive than the LexJet Canvas, even the sale price. I wonder if the BC canvas is so cheap since so much of each roll is no good? Their 44" roll is only $160 bucks (volume price can be mixed with different size rolls and varnish - it is easy for me to come up with an order, which is a 27% discount) vs. nearly $300 for these other two brands.

I've never had any cracking issues with the BC canvas - I spray two coats of their Glamour II varnish and then stretch, using a special "tool" we made (via Bill Atkinson) that produces something like 300-400 pounds of stretch - we can get this stuff really tight as a drum on the stretcher frames! As I have stated before, I love the product, just don't like the way I've been treated by the company.

[printmaker]

I still love the product, but don't know what to do. Should I continue to put up with this nonsense and just eat the last few feet of every roll and anything else they send me that is defective? What do you guys do with that last few feet of defective canvas?

Doing giclee for better part of 10 years now.
(IRIS, Colorspan, Roland, Epson)
Its widely known that this is common occurance with canvas.
Every canvas I have ever used has this happen for the last 5 ft. or so of a roll.
(I'd love to find one that doesnt)
While its frustrating...
really there is nothing you can do about it.

At least BC recognizes this is happening man,
Colorspan/ Fredrix were a nightmare to deal with on defective prod.
call up ennovation to report it.
take pics, send roll back.
new roll sent in a week paid for again by me out of pocket...
6 months later get a credit.
total BS  
No support at all. fighting with them constantly.
I used to get rolls of canvas that had BUGS in them.
when i say bugs I literally mean it.
INSECTS smashed within the roll fossilized!? WTF?

I really noticed it most on 100% cotton canvas I was getting
 Had the ripple for 5ft. + on every roll plus seeds and flaws
Same w/ fredrix, lexjet, etc.  
You name it I have tried em all at some point and still have half rolls of all the above in the store room.

I was hoping someone with BC experience could let me know their thoughts on any other canvas they think is as good, and what they have done about the defective end of the rolls - so far no one has come forward with that info, but I know it is early yet. I don't think any of those canvases that you noted will yield as good an optical image as the BC canvas, but I would love to be proven wrong!

Thanks as always for any thoughts...

Tim Ernst
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179132\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I usually just save the last few feet of canvas with rippling for proofing now.
 That and head alignment/calibration tests.
Theres really nothing else you can do with it.

In all my experience I have never found a canvas that didnt do this during the last few feet of the roll.
(if you have one I'd love to check it out)

And does anyone who has used BC canvas and their varnish found another brand of canvas with the same final look to your images? I love BC canvas since the surface is smooth and the d-max and sharpness are terrific - I do not like the look of other canvas products I have used, including the standard bearer, Epson. I would welcome any thoughts.

Like you I am 100% happy with the canvas/coating i get from BC
the G2 coating has a bit of a learning curve to it but once you get that system down there really is no looking back.

I got off 100% cotton canvas and solvent spray a few years back and have never been happier.
the Bulldog spray would have me nearly coughing up blood, Clearstar the same...
solvent is brutal stuff.

Here is a photo that shows the lines at the end of the roll, and what happens if you print on that part of the roll that has been as much as 15' of defective canvas on a single roll.

 [attachment=5391:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yup. thats exactly what it looks like.
I recommend you save the ends for proofing on.
best use for that so that is doesnt "go to waste" so to speak.

[printmaker]

ONE MORE ITEM. I was told on Monday that their matte varnish does NOT have any UV protection in it at all and that you absolutely can't use it alone for this reason. So if anyone is using matte-only, be sure to add some gloss to it...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179347\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

FYI  there isnt a matte varnish on the market that I am aware of that has UV inhibitors in it... not one.

Its due to the properties of matte coating.

Not a fan of matte spray for this reason alone.
(that and the fact that when used alone prints look really dull and lack pop/contrast)

I would much rather use a matte canvas with a gloss coating through an HVLP gun for control in the coating..
one light coat and it appears matte.
two coats it takes on a semi-gloss look.
three coats you can basically see your reflection in it.

I have customers who require each level so by using a gun to coat I get more control and less waste.

plus matte coatings dont have as long as a shelf life in my experience as gloss does.
it tends to settle at the bottom.

[ternst]

Thanks for the info. I've always used an hlvp gun (but NOT the way BC says to do it on their web site - they are wrong) and gloss only varnish - love the finish.

The president of BC told me today to request a refund for ANY part of their canvas that has lines on it, then in a second e-mail he told me that 3.5' to 5.5' were "industry standard" so I don't know which way he plans to go with this. Later on one of their VP's told me to request a refund for ANY part of a canvas that has lines - that would be all rolls for me as you say.

I don't have any reason to "proof" anything - the images are always right the first time - is there a reason you have to proof? Gosh, what a waste of time that must be.

I guess I have to consider myself lucky that I got anything out of BC at all.


Here is a quote from the BC president today - <<we never get any complaints about the last few feet being unusable.>>

I WISH THAT EVERYONE WOULD FILE A COMPLAINT EVERY TIME THEY HAVE LINES ON THEIR CANVAS FROM BC! Perhaps the fact we all accept this as standard and never say anything is one reason why they continue to push this crap down our throats. I relate this to someone ordering a 16/20 print and me delivering an 11/14 print instead at the full price - that is false advertising, fraud, whatever you want to call it and I just don't buy the "industry standard" BS.

Anyway, thanks again for your info.