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Author Topic: Defective Breathing Color Canvas  (Read 16966 times)

Charles Gast

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Defective Breathing Color Canvas
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2008, 11:04:52 pm »

I use 24" BC matte canvas. The first roll I used had the line. It is caused by the thickness of the canvas at the end of the sheet. The last 18 inches or so had the line where it wrapped around and followed the contour of the sheet end on the roll. The stuff is pretty thick. The line was slightly present on the last print I did but as soon as I stretched it the line went away. It was a very slight at that point. I'm on roll 2 so I'll see if its the same.

On the UV filtering of matte varnish. Polycarbonate or polymer will inherently filter UV light. No secret miracle additives are needed. Golden makes matte UV filtering varnish.  Take a little fluorescent black  (UV) light and coat the tube with matte varnish.  After it dries a week turn on the UV light and see if any of your fluorescent glow toys light up with it in a dark room. They will barely glow at all since only visible light will get through and nearly all the UV light will be stopped. Try it with a piece of lexan,plexiglas,polycarbonate, or those protective plastic tubes made for fluorescent shop lights. They will stop nearly all the emission from a UV light source. This experiment I have tried myself. I think it likely that the UV additives are an addition to the inherent blocking properties of the plastic varnish. The matte varnish may not stop as much but they will stop most of it.
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printmaker

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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2008, 01:12:56 am »

 of course the lines are in roll #2
how many rolls of canvas have you used in your life?

you are acting like this is something new to you...
I find that strange to blame BC
(maybe this is your first canvas encounter?)
its Epson, Sihl, Colorspan, Lexjet, Bulldog,HP, etc.
it sucks... but EVERY canvas I have ever seen has it.




Quote
Thanks for the info. I've always used an hlvp gun (but NOT the way BC says to do it on their web site - they are wrong) and gloss only varnish - love the finish.

 there is def. a learning curve.
I go 50% dillution
the gun i have has a huuuge nozzle so we push 75psi and coat that bad boy in just a few seconds!
BC recommends 30-40 psi
every situation is a bit different.
really have to find what works best for you.
same goes for stretching canvas and taking pictures...
sure there are recommended ways and guidelines but everyone has to find their own flow.


Quote
I don't have any reason to "proof" anything - the images are always right the first time - is there a reason you have to proof? Gosh, what a waste of time that must be.

 
Man i dont buy that for a sec.
"the images are ALWAYS right the first time"
wanna come work for me then?
I could use a guy who can get everything right the first time.
lol

there is always a way to make your image better.
especially if you are concerned about the final output...
Proofing is ESSENTIAL.

that'd be like a musician going in and cutting an album on the first run through!??
 
it could happen but in order to get it perfect you gotta work it a bit, ya know?

I'm doing production, a Giclee print studio... for gallerys, artisits and publishing co.
PICKY to say the least...
I run 10 or more proofs before doing final production.
*using the lasso/ wand and adjustment layers like crazy.
always trying to match ultramarine blue through a printer (impossible)
I find uses for the last bit of canvas for proofing because everything I print HAS to be perfect before it goes to final print and hangs in a gallery for $5,000 +
 

Quote
I WISH THAT EVERYONE WOULD FILE A COMPLAINT EVERY TIME THEY HAVE LINES ON THEIR CANVAS FROM BC! Perhaps the fact we all accept this as standard and never say anything is one reason why they continue to push this crap down our throats. I relate this to someone ordering a 16/20 print and me delivering an 11/14 print instead at the full price - that is false advertising, fraud, whatever you want to call it and I just don't buy the "industry standard" BS.

Anyway, thanks again for your info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

sure, why not? and every other company that has lines on the end rolls...
maybe it'll change the industry
(doubt it, but you never know right?)
At least you got recognition on this...
thats more than any manufact./ producer has given me
I've never had a president deal directly with any issue I have had w/ their product.
thats says more good than bad to me about them.


the 11x14 to 16x20 comparison is totally moot.
seriously, it sounds powerful but holds no weight unfortunately.
not opposing you cause I agree 100% that the lines fucking suck.
but lets be real here.
 
Why a higher standard for canvas than for ink??
both are critical within the process.

Do you get EVERY LAST DROP from your ink cartridge from HP/ Epson/ IRIS/ Canon /Colorspan/Roland before your machine says you are "low on ink" or that its time to change out the ink cartridge?

NO freakin way.

Are you calling out scam, false advertising boooo rip-off at all them??
is that considered defective?
no because its an accepted fact of printing.
WASTE.
you are buying 220ml and only using 180ml or so
are you asking for a discount cause you cant use EVERY LAST DROP!?
are they pushing "crap down our throats"
by not allowing us to use every last bit of product before the machine misfires or says we are out?!?

same thing.

all of us printers need to be resourceful
if there is compensation then by all means.
but I have learned to expect nothing...
cause over the years in all the thousands of rolls I have ordered from various companies I have seen the same thing and gotten nothing in return back.
personally i have made use of end rolls so it doesnt effect me the same way I guess...

( however I do have a system to get the most all the ink I can out the cart. or box)
I dont fall victim to any loss of product if I can.
I syringe the left over ink out and back into others.
I proof on end rolls.
and I dilute my coating to the maximum ratio for my gun.
I take resivor overflow and fill my desktop printer black ink cartridge.
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ternst

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Defective Breathing Color Canvas
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2008, 06:37:12 am »

Well printmaker I guess it sounds like you know it all and the rest of us are just idiots. I think perhaps you need to wander on over to DP Review where your types spend most of their time. If you "proof" ten times for everything you do then perhaps it is time you learned a little bit about color management. Good grief man, get a life...
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Doyle Yoder

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Defective Breathing Color Canvas
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2008, 07:11:10 am »

Quote
FYI  there isnt a matte varnish on the market that I am aware of that has UV inhibitors in it... not one.

Its due to the properties of matte coating.

Not a fan of matte spray for this reason alone.
(that and the fact that when used alone prints look really dull and lack pop/contrast)

I would much rather use a matte canvas with a gloss coating through an HVLP gun for control in the coating..
one light coat and it appears matte.
two coats it takes on a semi-gloss look.
three coats you can basically see your reflection in it.

I have customers who require each level so by using a gun to coat I get more control and less waste.

plus matte coatings dont have as long as a shelf life in my experience as gloss does.
it tends to settle at the bottom.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here is a whole list of some of the reasons I prefer "Print GuardĀ®UV Ultra Matte is the bestchoice for graphics displayed in intense lighting conditions. Select this finish for absolutely no glare on your image."

Doyle
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Charles Gast

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Defective Breathing Color Canvas
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2008, 07:41:51 am »

I would love to be able to use the Printgaurd lamination product. I just dont have the room for a 42 inch format laminator. Well actually I could make room but the laminator is too expensive for my budget. Unfortunately. $6000 - bummer.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 09:09:37 am by Charles Gast »
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printmaker

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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2008, 11:33:03 am »

Quote
Well printmaker I guess it sounds like you know it all and the rest of us are just idiots. I think perhaps you need to wander on over to DP Review where your types spend most of their time. If you "proof" ten times for everything you do then perhaps it is time you learned a little bit about color management. Good grief man, get a life...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i never said that...
I know for a fact there are a ton of VERY knowledgeable talented photographers/printmakers among others on this forum.
I have worked with many of them over the years.


get a life!?


hey man, I have one... as well as a successful business, a hot chick, couple of dogs and a great attitude usually.

Im not the one in the forum crying about end rolls.
seriously.
Its a forum, we're discussing ideas/opinions...
I think you need to think about it a bit before putting me on blast.

 

YOU are complaining about a very standard issue in the printing industry
pissed off you cant use every square inch of canvas and have waste...
and by the same...
you are fully accepting of the fact you cant use every last drop in your ink cartridges and have waste?
(very standard issue in the industry)

[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23587]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=23587[/url]

in the above thread (2nd & 6th post) you go on to say its perfectly fine that HP ruins your prints when "ink is low" when in actuality the ink is not too low to run.
why is that?
cause its something you accepted a while back as something that happens in the industry??
 

you say "Oh well, this printer uses so much less ink than my Epsons I guess it is worth the trouble now and then since the overall operating costs are greatly reduced..."

sounds to me like you dont really know which side of the fence to stand on when it comes to wasted product?  you find value in waste in the above quote!!?
maybe you like wasted ink but not wasted canvas??
maybe you dont know how to make either go a little further for you?
[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']i gave a few suggestions,
but you piss excellence so you have no need for proofing it sounds.[/span]

so stop being petty, pick a side and stick to it...
are all the industry giants scamming? or just certain ones?

get on the horn then...
Get HP's president on the phone.
change the industry for printmakers everywhere.



 
*I use color management... make no mistake about that.
gets me in the 80-90% range off the bat.

but what I'm doing is quit a bit different than what your are doing.
I'll give you that.
I'm trying to match and achieve unprintable colors that artists mix up through paints.
Fire-engine reds / Ultramarine blue among others.
It def. takes patience and a critical eye.

but I'm an artist myself and I essentially am painting through a printer in all my work I put out.
NOTHING is ever perfect on the first print and can always be made better after a brief study.

so keep recoring your platnum albums on the first take... ok
 
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Charles Gast

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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2008, 12:22:48 pm »

In the FWIW department.
If I am going to do my first printing of a 24x36 inch canvas you better believe I crop out at least a letter size chunk and print it on a cut piece of canvas. I've wasted time ink and media in the past thinking for sure I had it right only to print something big that was off a bit. Just a bit is all it takes. We all know that or we wouldn't be here kicking around ideas and sometimes each other
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ternst

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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2008, 03:01:21 pm »

Gosh guys, you really need to learn some color management and quit wasting paper and ink. If you have your monitor and paper profiled, what comes out of the printer should be what you see on screen - it is for me, every time. Really. It works, just like it is supposed to. I print 40 x 72's all the time with no issues and no proofs needed, and they look pretty much just like what is on my screen, and I have spent time to make sure what is on my screen is what I want the print to look like in the first place. Ten proofs before you get one right? Really? And printmaker, they have drugs that may help your condition. And like I said, DP Review...

It has been fun, but I'm toast here. Thanks guys for your thoughts. BC has been very helpful now and will be giving me credit for any canvas that has lines on it, as they should...
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Brian Gilkes

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Defective Breathing Color Canvas
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2008, 04:39:39 pm »

Everyone has a point- or several.
Good colour management is the first base. If all original colours are within gamut, viewing conditions are correct and gallery has same lighting as that for proofing , then results are usually acceptable. The problem is this seldom occurs. With out of gamut colours one must consider how perceptual renderings are to be built. No ICC standard here. Shadow separation is poor with Adobe RGB space (for example) and it's shape does not match printer /ink/substrate spaces. . Converting spaces does not always retain exact color. Luminosity nearly always changes. How do you handle metallic colours? We often edit profiles for a specific job. I use several perceptual renderings.
Color numbers do not relate to colourfullness- see Joseph Holmes website.Sharpness can only be evaluated on the hard proof. What is your ratio of deconvolution vs local contrast? The lighting of the original can alter many things , mainly saturation- yet different originals require different lighting. The way things are measured is not the way they are perceived.Women perceive differently to men, some a lot differently.Soft proofs can only approximate the hard proof. People remember colors differently to the way they were originally perceived. There is a lot more. A book could be written about it. I might do this one day.
Ultimately everything is a compromise . Our only enemy is complacency.
Have fun
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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