Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!

[Snook]

Never seen it mentioned here but boy is the Focus Critical with Medium format!!!
Your a Hair off and the Picture goes to hell...
I used to get away with a lot more with the Canon 1DsMII...:+}
I have been shooting with the P30 and the RZII and the AFDII and both are way tooooo critical when you are focusing.
Speaking of which does anybody know if they make a Split Screen for the RZIIPro D?
Ever since Digital I have been having the hardest time with Focusing properly...:+{
And I have 20/20 vision.
Anybody else have troubles focusing properly with Medium format?
Any rules or techniques?  Seriuosly
I just do not get it.
Today I shoot all day in my studio and the model was basically against a white wall.
If she leaned ever so slightly forward, we are talking Millimeters she would be out of focus.
Actually many times the focus was on her waist (belt) and her eyes would be way out of focus on a knees up portrait!!!
RZIIProD Tripod, single light source.. pretty basic.
Thanks for any help or condolences...:+}
Snook

[John_Black]

My eyes AREN'T 20/20, so the keeper rate is a joke some days.  Though the low keeper rate makes post processing pretty quick!  In regards to the AFD II, I have the prism screen and a 2X viewfinder magnifier.  Neither is a silver bullet, and the combination of the two means every shot will be a center focus based composition.  That combo is great for product type work, but lousy in a real-time environment.

The irony of that is, center focus with Mamiya AF is okay.  I need help for when the composition is not center focus oriented.  I'm thinking a 1Ds3 might be the ultimate focusing aide later this year - and I'm not real happy about that solution...

[j.miller]

Snook,
      Focus, focus, focus. Take advantage of micro-adjust focus knob on your RZ. (only found on the Pro / Pro II / Pro IID). The AFD certainly takes some practice to hit focus, especially coming from the 35mm DSLR world.

My best suggestion is to practice as often as possible. You could look into a viewfinder magnifier, but that can be a bit cumbersome in certain, fast-paced environment. A split-image focusing screen should help quite a bit on the RZ.There are a few options here:

Mamiya RZ67 RangefinderSpot/Microprism Focusing Screen (#212-426)
Same as Matte, but with a 45° split-image rangefinder wedge surrounded by a microprism collar. Highly versatile 3-way focusing (rangefinder, microprism, and matte). Ideal for general purpose photography.

Mamiya RZ67 Vertical Split Image Focusing Screen (#212-427)
Same as Matte, but with a vertical central split-image rangefinder wedge added. Matte surface can be used for focusing, but the vertical split-image feature makes focusing easier and more accurate for subjects such as portraits.

There are some other focusing screens available as well. You have some microprism options, as well as crosshair, etc.

With regard to the AFD, again the same applies. Veiwfinder magnifier is an option. You have only one focusing screen options from Mamiya:

Mamiya 645 AF-DII Microprism Type C for Non-AF 645 Lenses (#211-713)
Same as Matte, but with central microprism spot added. Provides an alternative Rangefinder Spot screen for enhanced focusing precision with the manual focus lenses. When using the manual focus lenses in the stop down metering mode, this screen must be used.

With practice, and some more refined tools, as described above, you should have no trouble getting focus spot on.

Good luck.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Never seen it mentioned here but boy is the Focus Critical with Medium format!!!
Your a Hair off and the Picture goes to hell...
I used to get away with a lot more with the Canon 1DsMII...:+}
I have been shooting with the P30 and the RZII and the AFDII and both are way tooooo critical when you are focusing.
Speaking of which does anybody know if they make a Split Screen for the RZIIPro D?
Ever since Digital I have been having the hardest time with Focusing properly...:+{
And I have 20/20 vision.
Anybody else have troubles focusing properly with Medium format?
Any rules or techniques?  Seriuosly
I just do not get it.
Today I shoot all day in my studio and the model was basically against a white wall.
If she leaned ever so slightly forward, we are talking Millimeters she would be out of focus.
Actually many times the focus was on her waist (belt) and her eyes would be way out of focus on a knees up portrait!!!
RZIIProD Tripod, single light source.. pretty basic.
Thanks for any help or condolences...:+}
Snook
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[EricWHiss]

Never seen it mentioned here but boy is the Focus Critical with Medium format!!!
Your a Hair off and the Picture goes to hell...
I used to get away with a lot more with the Canon 1DsMII...:+}
.
.
.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173599\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you checked your focus screen?   I have heard that some of the mamiya screens were flawed from factory (with a cup shape instead of flat) - worth checking out.    You can also get a custom focus screen from someone like Bill Maxwell or Brightscreen.  

I had the same experience when I went to MF -  but actually focus is just way more critical with digital not just MF.  The better the glass you have the more you see the point of focus (and what's not in focus).   You can't compare apertures from 135 to MF either so whatever you shot at with your 1DsII you'll need to stop down 1 or 2.

[Snook]

Thanks for the replies so far.
Maybe I should add a couple of things..
I do have the Maxell screen installed.
Also I am shooting people if that was not obvious so them moving a little bit certainly changes things.
Also I started photography with Medium format so am pretty familiar with it even though it has been many years..
I think your right that digital is  less forgiving.
I was shooting mainly at F11 with the RZII and I usually shoot around F8 with 35mm(Canon)
It is just going to take some practice I guess.
Back in the Film days Mamiya ProTL and Pentax 6X7, I was actually known for having hardly ANY pictures soft on the focus. Maybe I am just rusty.
In any case thanks for the comments.
Snook

[BernardLanguillier]

I had the same experience when I went to MF -  but actually focus is just way more critical with digital not just MF.  The better the glass you have the more you see the point of focus (and what's not in focus).   You can't compare apertures from 135 to MF either so whatever you shot at with your 1DsII you'll need to stop down 1 or 2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The difference with film is what we are looking at. Checking files at 100% on screen might not be the best way to assess whether an image is suitable for a given application.

But, i fact I am not convinced that focus is really such an issue with MFDB. Here is why.

The ironic part is that critical focus is only a must for these applications with very little DoF, meaning applications where the impression of sharpness derives mostly from the contrast between OoF areas and sharp ones.

All in all, my view is that for the applications where little DoF is needed, a 1ds3 with a 85f1.2 and AF is the best tool available:

- Less  DoF than with MF lenses since 35 mm lenses open a lot more,
- Critical focus can be achieved easily with AF,
- Only a few pixels are really sharp and the difference between 39 and 21 MP is IMHO not that great.

Now there are of course other considerations like the look of Bokeh etc... that might prevent some from using Canon lenses but that has nothing to do with focus.

For those applications where limited DoF is not required, then focus stops to be critical (just shoot at f11-f16) and MFDB become a great option.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Morgan_Moore]

Anybody else have troubles focusing properly with Medium format?
Any rules or techniques? Seriuosly
I just do not get it.

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Firstly is your camera front or back focussing, a small (1/10mm) misallignment of  mirror or chip will cause consistent front or back focus compared to manual focus

You should do some tests

OK you kit is working.

Then how do expect to see an image that you can look at 2m high on screen properly when you are looking through a viewfinder that is less than 6cm high !

IMO the resolution is just too much for any eyes - I think digital focusing aids absolutely required.

Solutions ?

Still life/landscape - shoot tethered and zoom

Hand held ?

Well I use my H1 single point AF all the time lock and recompose

AND bracket focus by rocking forwards and backwards between shots - makes me look a bit nuts

This isnt really good enough and is cr&p on a tripod

I think you should look at the viewing experience on HY6 and H1 cameras - way better than my old 645afd IMO - I havnt used a Mam67

Of couse a smaller aperture may make  a slight misfocus more acceptable but not really IMO

Other solutions?  - well I have thought about taping a laser onto the top of the camera SWAT team style and focusing on the red dot - it would be nice to have a laser that switched off during the exposure

Brighter modelling lights ?

For say runners I am interested in having the camera fire when an IR beam is broken does any one know a link for this kit

Fundamentally the MF systems are ALL a DISSAPOINTMENT thier AF and live view facilities are very much 80s technology when compared to a technically excellent offereing such as my D3

That the HY6 is still centerpoint only AF is IMO a real shame

Any improvement in MP in DBacks would seem to be a waste of time for dynamic shooters without improved focus aquisition technology

The focus aquisition technology on MFdbs is a joke compared to 'face recognition' available on $200 compact cameras !

I would swap to any MF system that had multipoint AF with a wide selection of sensors - maybe the new phase mamiya ??

IMO the future is DBs that can analyse data hitting the chip (yes maybe a peicle mirror would be requred) and use that data somehow - this should also allow the zone to be anywhere in the image - not just in 1, 11 or 50 points predesposed by the manufactuer - how the hell do THEY know where I want to focus

I have looked at the focus spacing on both the D3 and Ds3 and neither has any focus points that correspond with any point of critical focus of ANY image in my portfolio (the spacing is too close)

You are not alone

S

[Frank Doorhof]

I find the focus a wonderful improvement.
With the canon I could never focus 100% on the eyeball or on the eye when hairs were before it.

With the MF system even on AF it hits straight on.
For me it's a HUGE improvement.
But it's slower, that's true.

I have to add that I have VERY steady hands.

[Morgan_Moore]

I find the focus a wonderful improvement.
With the canon I could never focus 100% on the eyeball or on the eye when hairs were before it.

With the MF system even on AF it hits straight on.
For me it's a HUGE improvement.
But it's slower, that's true.

I have to add that I have VERY steady hands.
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I didnt say DSLR was good - I said MF has a long way to go - there a many things that make DSLRs unpleasant to focus..

Small screen , poor sensor spacing

S

[Frank Doorhof]

I did not comment on you my friend

More in general

[amsp]

If your images are out of focus at f/11 you are doing something seriously wrong. Just focus on the eyes and recompose. The AFD even has focus confirmation, it couldn't be easier. I have no trouble getting my photos consistently sharp.

[Dustbak]

I agree, I find focus much more critical with MFDB. The focal plane appears to be much thinner than you might expect basing it upon depth of fields tables used with film.

I find I need to be much more accurate with MFDB than with film, the higher the pixel density the more critical it gets. My 17Mp backs are less critical than the 39Mp's.

Whether this is because looking at files 100% makes us much more critical about acceptable sharpness or other reasons I am not sure.

Another thing I always notice is that when you are just slightly off you are getting punished immediately where I got away with it with film (in most cases).

You simply have to be careful. This phenomena has been mentioned more than once in several different places btw.

[David WM]

I agree, the focus is very critical. It is an area of MF Dig that has been left behind.  The files are just so crisp and there is none of the natural softening that happens with processing and scanning film. The area in focus just jumps out at you.
I use a H1 system and with wide angle I tend to rely on the lens distance scale as a check when doing interiors (often in dull light). I don't like having to upset the composition I have just achieved so that I can position the centre focus point somewhere elce in the scene just to check focus.
For people I tend to use the 120Macro  when needing the longer than standard lens look. I think I should really have the 100mm f2.2 or the 150 f3.2 as these would probably give a better idea for manual focus (getting one of these lenses is on my list). I am often shooting in a studio using flash, so the ambient light for focusing by is low.
I think Sam is right and AF needs imrovement, at least 3 points to choose from... preferably 9. Maybe now that we are seeing integrated systems in MF this is one feature that will get attention, rather than becoming a reason for why MF is not good for some shooters.
David

[Snook]

No need to have steady hands as I am shooting on a tripod in studio.
I have the same problem that my modeling lights are not that bright. 250W and I have some 500 watts also but they get pretty hot.
I just find it strange that sometimes when RZ is on tripod and it is flat to the subject and I focus on the belly or waist that the eyes can be so OOF at F11.
Also I do not have as much trouble with the AFDII as they are AF lens except for the Macro which I am still trying to figure out.. weird how the center spot kind of DIstorts the face or eyes when you are trying to focus.. Like they get a balloon effect until in focus, if that makes sense.
I have a Bill maxell Focusing screen... (sp?) and it is kind of matte in my RZII.
I think I might try out some Split screen screens.
Can anybody suggest which one I should try out? Or which one NOT to buy...:+}
Seen some on e-bay relatively cheap so I would like to at least try them out.
Also I do not think that measuring distance like cinema guys would work for people shot's as if they move ever so slightly they will be OOF.
Also does anybody have any links where someone could learn a little about focusing by the numbers on the side of the lens? (RZ) mainly?
I really appreciate your help as usually...  
Thanks guys
Snook

[Jonathan Wienke]

Just focus on the eyes and recompose.

That's not true, especially when shooting close in to the subject.

http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photograph...mpose_sucks.htm

[amsp]

That's not true, especially when shooting close in to the subject.

http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photograph...mpose_sucks.htm
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He was saying how he couldn't get a full length photo in focus, not an extreme close-up.

[Jonathan Wienke]

Doesn't have to be extreme close-up for it to be a factor. Did you read my article? Focus-recompose can cause back focus even shooting full length. It's less of an issue with longer focal lengths and greater subject distances, but when you're complaining about critical focus being off a few inches, it's something you need to take into account.

[amsp]

Doesn't have to be extreme close-up for it to be a factor. Did you read my article? Focus-recompose can cause back focus even shooting full length. It's less of an issue with longer focal lengths and greater subject distances, but when you're complaining about critical focus being off a few inches, it's something you need to take into account.
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Yes I've read your article. The fact is however that I do it all the time, even with shoulder length close-ups with no problem what-so-ever. So I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with real life experience instead of your article. But that's just me.

[samuel_js]

My experience is that, on a tripod, you always compose first and then focus. It is true that recomposing after focusing can cause focus problems. But this technique is very common in MF because you have only one focus point, so focus and recompose is normal handheld. I always look at my focus point after recomposing to see if it goes out of focus, then adjust it manually if needed.

[Snook]

That's not true, especially when shooting close in to the subject.

http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photograph...mpose_sucks.htm
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Shooting with and RZII with Winder 127mm lens and Bellows hoods, I am not going to Focus and re-compose! For obvious reasons.
And they are not necessarily full length shot's...
Knees up sometimes are tricky aswell.
Snook