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Author Topic: Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!  (Read 24943 times)

AndreNapier

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2008, 12:45:01 pm »

I shoot with Rz and A75s. All my work falls in between 2.8-5.6 and 4.0 accounting for 90%.
My shooting eye is minus 2. With all this obsticles I still manage to get an average of 90% of images with critical eye brow focus and 95% with publishers acceptable focus. Granted the best images are always off but this is rule of everybody's life in photography. Sometimes I thing that they are the best just because they are off focus. The best way to achieve critical focus is by mixing strobes with small HMI. I keep all modeling lights off on strobes keeping the studio very dark and use one 125W grided HMI as a following spot on the face of a model. The contrast becomes very visible and the focus just jump in. Yes you have to have an assistant to operate the spot but it truly pays off.
Additionally by adjusting shooter speed you can get beautiful glow at desire intensity on model face without affecting all your main lighting.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 12:46:21 pm by AndreNapier »
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Snook

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2008, 12:51:46 pm »

Thanks Andre for the info.
I have been wanting to try out a similar system. turn off modeling lights and some how clamp a nice bright light in the same direction as the strobe for focusing.
Do you use the HMI because the color of it's light or just because you happen to have one?
Thanks again
Snook
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jing q

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2008, 01:15:27 pm »

I shoot outdoors mainly with a Mamiya AFdII.
I find the focus confirmation works pretty well plus I do very careful focusing back and forth to find the exact point I want in focus (on tripod)
when handheld it's abit hit or miss. I find this is where the zoom lens really comes in handy:
zoom in, confirm focus on the point you want, zoom out and the focus should be the same.
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AndreNapier

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2008, 01:21:01 pm »

There are several advantages of using HMI over tungsten. 125W of HMI provide amount of light equal to 500W of tungsten but is neither as hot nor distracting to a model. 500W of yellow light directly on face makes even the most experience model to squint their eyes. Yellow dot registered in model pupil is not really a pleasant accent in an image. Combination of 2800K on face with 5500 on body makes it difficult to correct in post. Shooting with lower speed than 1/125 you can often see the effect of blinking light (60Hertz){ similar to a bad scan} with tungsten bulb while HMI is truly continuous light. ETC.
Additionally I grew up on HMI's working in lighting crew on movie sets so I learned to understand an appreciate its effect.
Andre
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snickgrr

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2008, 01:47:21 pm »

Quote
There are several advantages of using HMI over tungsten. 125W of HMI provide amount of light equal to 500W of tungsten but is neither as hot nor distracting to a model. 500W of yellow light directly on face makes even the most experience model to squint their eyes. Yellow dot registered in model pupil is not really a pleasant accent in an image. Combination of 2800K on face with 5500 on body makes it difficult to correct in post. Shooting with lower speed than 1/125 you can often see the effect of blinking light (60Hertz){ similar to a bad scan} with tungsten bulb while HMI is truly continuous light. ETC.
Additionally I grew up on HMI's working in lighting crew on movie sets so I learned to understand an appreciate its effect.
Andre
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Andre,
What does the gridded light do to the size of the pupils?  Some people think the large pupil looks dead, other thinks it gives a doe like innocence.  Is the light strong enough to constrict the pupil somewhat?

Paul
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Snook

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2008, 03:10:41 pm »

What would be the next best option besides HMI price wise..:+}
They are pretty spendy just to be using for focusing...:+}
Are there any other daylight balanced options?
Snook
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patrickfransdesmet

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2008, 04:22:05 pm »

well at last, I totally agree
MFDB focussing is a real problem
Personally I use a Hasselblad 503CW with a Phase P20
I used to work on film. Out of hand I had a focus hit-rate of 95%
now with the P20 I get mostly 45% in focus
It is really true, if your subjec moves a few cm, its out of focus.
I use the x2 viewfinder, even then, the same problem
further more, Focus , then change your aperture, make several exposures, and you'll find many of them out of focus.
Now I understand why Hasselblad invented the ultra-focus featyre in the H series...

I must admit that the hit-rate of my small nikon D200 is higher, much higher

I did not like the H series, I expect more of the Hy6, who knows

The best way to get ultra sharp images out of a MFDB is focussing on your computer, use a tripod, choose 1 aperture, and stay with it !

For some reason, I find myself going back to film on MF the last weeks
certainly for black and white, I never got rid of my darkroom !
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Frank Doorhof

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2008, 05:55:15 pm »

Sorry to be so blunt maybe but there must be something wrong with your setup.

I changed from DSLR to MF and I get a 99% hit ratio with both manual focus and AF lenses.
Maybe the 645AFD/II has better focus than the bodies you use but I don't believe that.

I shoot alot of fast stuff, jumps, fashion etc. and get as mentioned before a 99% sharp exposure, even on the jumps.
I do use spotfocus on the 645AFD/II by the way, but most of the time I use the 120MM macro with manual focus.

I always check the eyes and I love to shoot at f11 for portraits so that doesn't give me alot of DOF.



Maybe it's indeed in the focus screens, I use the Leaf focus screen but what I can see it's exactly the same as the Mamiya version only with crop lines.
With the ZD back I also had no focus problems.

Is it will ALL lenses ?
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Snook

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2008, 06:12:25 pm »

Frank Again I am talking mainly about the RZ but also find it with the 120mm macro on the AFDII.
That shot actually looks a little soft on the her eyes but is hard to tell from a web shot.
Frank, I guess your shooting with tripod and are you focusing where you think the girl will "end" up?
Or are you focusing on her waist or eyes when she is standing ready to jump.
I am glad you get a 99% keeper rate which sounds extremely high especially for jumping shots.
But it looks like you have mastered that.
I have always had problems with jumping shot's due to my Profoto's not have a very short duration and the focusing problem.
My keeper rate is like 65% I would say.
I shot 2 days last week where the girls were  against a wall and not moving hardly at all and I still had trouble keeping focus and it get's harder as the day goes on...:+}
I usually have my computer assistant keep C-1 up with the focus tool on the face and constantly keeping an eye on the focus. Every shot!
Again,
DOES anybody know which is the best split image screen I can get for the RZIIproD?
Thanks for the replies
Snook
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AndreNapier

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2008, 07:24:43 pm »

Quote
Andre,
What does the gridded light do to the size of the pupils?  Some people think the large pupil looks dead, other thinks it gives a doe like innocence.  Is the light strong enough to constrict the pupil somewhat?

Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

125W HMI from small distance is strong enough to constrict pupils. Size of a pupil is a matter of taste and very from model to model. Generally darken skin models eg. Latin models photograph great with wide open pupils, but I would hate to see it on pale blue eye blond. I personally do not mind big black pupil as long as you can avoid huge umbrella reflection. Gridded reflector provides harsh directed light so as with all open sources I try to light it only with the edge of a light avoiding the center spot.
Andre
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AndreNapier

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2008, 07:28:49 pm »

Quote
What would be the next best option besides HMI price wise..:+}
They are pretty spendy just to be using for focusing...:+}
Are there any other daylight balanced options?
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If money was concern I would use large 300W spot light bulb from your electric supplier the kind you use for outdoor lighting. I believe it is BR40. I use them on occasion when shooting abroad.
Andre
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David WM

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2008, 07:29:37 pm »

It sounds to me like the HMI focus light might be the secret. Maybe the longer wavelengths associated with tungstun are harder for our eyesight to make out fine details, and that a more agressive  light source like HMI suits us better. That is apart from the obvious increase in contrast you get from having a strong hard light source on your subject.
David

Quote
There are several advantages of using HMI over tungsten.
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AndreNapier

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2008, 07:32:53 pm »

Quote
well at last, I totally agree
MFDB focussing is a real problem
Personally I use a Hasselblad 503CW with a Phase P20
I used to work on film. Out of hand I had a focus hit-rate of 95%
now with the P20 I get mostly 45% in focus
It is really true, if your subjec moves a few cm, its out of focus.
I use the x2 viewfinder, even then, the same problem
further more, Focus , then change your aperture, make several exposures, and you'll find many of them out of focus.
Now I understand why Hasselblad invented the ultra-focus featyre in the H series...

I must admit that the hit-rate of my small nikon D200 is higher, much higher

I did not like the H series, I expect more of the Hy6, who knows

The best way to get ultra sharp images out of a MFDB is focussing on your computer, use a tripod, choose 1 aperture, and stay with it !

For some reason, I find myself going back to film on MF the last weeks
certainly for black and white, I never got rid of my darkroom !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I find Hasselblad V the hardest to focus of all cameras when shooting with prism and somewhat challenging with WLF. I used it for few months and gave it up. Hasselblad H is the easiest camera to focus manually with prism but there is this big but that I hate its drawing wide open.
Andre
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AndreNapier

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2008, 07:36:24 pm »

Quote
Sorry to be so blunt maybe but there must be something wrong with your setup.

I changed from DSLR to MF and I get a 99% hit ratio with both manual focus and AF lenses.
Maybe the 645AFD/II has better focus than the bodies you use but I don't believe that.

I shoot alot of fast stuff, jumps, fashion etc. and get as mentioned before a 99% sharp exposure, even on the jumps.
I do use spotfocus on the 645AFD/II by the way, but most of the time I use the 120MM macro with manual focus.

I always check the eyes and I love to shoot at f11 for portraits so that doesn't give me alot of DOF.



Maybe it's indeed in the focus screens, I use the Leaf focus screen but what I can see it's exactly the same as the Mamiya version only with crop lines.
With the ZD back I also had no focus problems.

Is it will ALL lenses ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Frank,
You are a Master.
99% jumping shots?
I thought I was a super pro with 50% of jumping images with the right composition.
Andre
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EricWHiss

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2008, 08:14:47 pm »

Quote
Sorry to be so blunt maybe but there must be something wrong with your setup.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Frank,
From your sample image, I'm not surprised that you get 99% keepers - looks like you are really pretty far away from the model to get all of her head to toe with arms out and still have that much space around her in the frame with the 120mm lens. At f/11, your  DOF in that case is probably 1.5meters or more.
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Morgan_Moore

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2008, 01:11:24 am »

Quote
I love to shoot at f11 for portraits so that doesn't give me alot of DOF.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

F11 thats very different from F4 or F2.8 and full lengths the focus is nearer infinity and therefore the DOF is greater too

Nice pic though

Part of this is choosing the right tool for the job and working out how to gain focus with the available tools and thier limitations

My focus on this image was probably about 10% (H1 at f4) - he was really running and popped up from behind the hill very quickly

And it was nearly dark and there were no modelling lights on the portable flashes !

Hence the interest in the IR trigger

S
« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 01:16:20 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Snook

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2008, 09:36:33 am »

Quote
Frank,
You are a Master.
99% jumping shots?
I thought I was a super pro with 50% of jumping images with the right composition.
Andre
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173850\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would say you have to give the Model A LOT of credit for jumping consistently in the same exact location as well Frank...? :+}
99% really?
:+}
Snook
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Frank Doorhof

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2008, 12:41:58 pm »

Let's clearify somethings

The jump shots are not 99% keepers, I think about 2 out of 10 are really 100% the way I want them, and even than only 2-3 out of each session are REALLY the way I want them when everything comes together, but that is not because of focus, that's because of pose, timing etc.
I find the MF alot harder to time than a DSLR, but I have the hang of it now and have app 8 out of 10 timed correctly, however the model will always jump different so there is a real problem which is not solved very easily.

The jump shots are taken at app a 80mm and between f16-f11.

My PORTRAIT work and most other work is done with the 120mm and mostly between f8.0 and f16.00 with a sweetspot for my eyes at f11 (a little bit depending on distance).

What I meant to say, but obvious did not come over right, is that I have no problem with FOCUS on the AFD/II so I advised to check the system.

If I take a NORMAL session so without the jumping, just normal portrait and beauty work I get a 99% hit ratio in focus, the system hardly misses a focus.
I don't use a tripod by the way, I do sometimes when it's necessary to get a consistant framing.


I have to add that even with the 5D I often used manual focus because I hated the large focus spot of the 5D, stepping to the macro mamiya is a wonderfull stepup, focussing is very easily due to the larger viewfinder and the precise focus setting of the lens.

It does take some time however during the session that's why for the faster paced sessions I use the 150mm AF.

I would LOVE to have a AF selection were you can select the top for example, but I responded to this thread because for ME PERSONALLY the step to MF has given me much better focus than my DSLR did.

Don't take it the wrong way as it is not meant that way, than I would just shut up and not post anything.





adding about the jumps.
Trust me on this one, I have been doing movement in sessions for the last 4 years and it took me 3-4 sessions to get from 5% keepers on the Mamiya to the same ammount as I had on the 5D.
The problem is I still shoot sports with the 5D so when I shot sports and I take the Mamiya I have to readjust for the slower mirror, but normally that takes now 2-3 jumps.
But as mentioned before not ALL shots are also good with jumps.
What I mean with hit ratio is the shots that are frozen, are in focus and are in on the floating point (not going up or down).
Composition is often way off because you can tell a model to keep her arms compact, but doing so is often difficult
posing in the air is something that also only 3-4 of my models can REALLY do, the other ones is just shooting a lot and if it doesn't work out using a small trampoline.

For the workshops I have 3 models that I dare to use for the jump shots, because they actually nail a jump every time.
The example I posted is from Stephanie, those where shot during a workshop I teached and I shot 20 frames and 4 were keepers were everything was absolutly perfect (see www.doorhof.nl/models in the Stepahnie folder were I posted 3 of them), normally as mentioned before with jumps you will have a very low hit ratio were composition/expression is right, but that was not the basis of my post, sorry if that was misread.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 12:49:31 pm by Frank Doorhof »
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patrickfransdesmet

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Focus is WAY to Critical with Medium format!!!
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2008, 07:01:39 am »

Hello,
now I understand why you have in focus images f16 ,F22 gives you enough DOF to play with.
Me from the otherhand, like to use wide open lenses often for portrait F4 and F2.8.
It was NEVER a problem doing this on film, and having perfect focus, and I still do.
But with MFDB it IS a problem.
It must be the surface of the CCD, I think,  that is different, maybe too flat, or flatter and reflection by film.
I also use the D-flash 40 and it fails measuring the OTF reflection for calculating its flash cut-off, when using MFDB.
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2008, 11:37:47 am »

Well only on jumps I use that small aperture.
(I tried to write it down carefull this time, please re read )

For portraits I use anything between f8 and f16 in the studio (mostly f11), outside it's almost always wide open so f4 or f3.5 (I only have one 1.9 and 2.8 lens )

Film is totally different indeed.
I shoot film for fun sometimes, but it doesnot come close to the sharpness I get from the leaf back.

But I'm not complaining by the way, I get good focus from my setup, although shooting wide open is somewhat of a riscy endeaver sometimes, but so was shooting on f1.2 on my DSLR , it's snooks post but somehow I did not write down my post as I intended so I explained.

Again for me switching to MF digital was a wonderful thing, but as mentioned before I focus very carefully.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 11:39:29 am by Frank Doorhof »
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