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Author Topic: Underwater Photography  (Read 10476 times)

marcmccalmont

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Underwater Photography
« on: October 21, 2007, 04:29:04 pm »

I haven't yet ventured into underwater photography but here in Hawaii there would be a lot of great oportunities.

I have a 5d but it looks expensive for a housing and strobe.

1) Does any one have experiance with a more cost effective solution ie G9 + housing?

2) How important is the external strobe to underwater photography?

3) How inportant is camera/lens quality when shooting through water?

Thanks
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

Kagetsu

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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2007, 10:44:42 pm »

I've used my 5D with Ewa Marine thingo. It works well for what it does, but it's certainly not a diving unit. The great thing is that it works well for situations where you need to take a camera out with you into the water, and it does protect it (it's also a flotation device). But the deeper you want to go the less air you can have in it, and I just don't have enough trust in the sealing system to go any more then a metre at a time... Maybe two metres, but the air pressure in the bag is so great, by the time you get to the bottom, lift the camera up to take a photo, compose it, you're already out of breath from swimming hard to get down.

I think the G9 and a water housing is a great idea personally... It'll allow you much more freedom, and with a large LCD to view find, would be simpler as well.
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2007, 10:52:48 pm »

Quote
I've used my 5D with Ewa Marine thingo. It works well for what it does, but it's certainly not a diving unit. The great thing is that it works well for situations where you need to take a camera out with you into the water, and it does protect it (it's also a flotation device). But the deeper you want to go the less air you can have in it, and I just don't have enough trust in the sealing system to go any more then a metre at a time... Maybe two metres, but the air pressure in the bag is so great, by the time you get to the bottom, lift the camera up to take a photo, compose it, you're already out of breath from swimming hard to get down.

I think the G9 and a water housing is a great idea personally... It'll allow you much more freedom, and with a large LCD to view find, would be simpler as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Did you need a flash or was available light enough?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

Kagetsu

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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2007, 11:20:55 pm »

Quote
Did you need a flash or was available light enough?
Marc
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Sorry, didn't really elaborate. Yes, a flash it necessary, unless you can do longer exposures... Which is an issue underwater.

Yes, you will need a flash if you want anything that's useable for quick shots at least, but even then, flash units do not work that far underwater either, so you'll end up getting a torch like view.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 02:45:30 am »

Quote
I haven't yet ventured into underwater photography but here in Hawaii there would be a lot of great oportunities.

I have a 5d but it looks expensive for a housing and strobe.

1) Does any one have experiance with a more cost effective solution ie G9 + housing?

2) How important is the external strobe to underwater photography?

3) How inportant is camera/lens quality when shooting through water?

Thanks
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Off camera flash is very important because of 'backscatter' if there are debris bubles in the water catch the direct flash light

Lense quality i doubt is too important because water clarity is the major factor

Also lenses get 'longer' under water so you need wider (closer = less water in the way= more quality)

There is also ISO noise to condier - water is a pretty powerful ND filter so you might be kicking up the ISO

I reckon you will buy the G9, have a great time shooting under water - its so much fun - shooting on land is really for sissies - too easy

you will then get hooked to shooting under/in and buy a 5d casing

so it is more cost effective to buy a 5d casing now

Oh and IMO ewemarine bags are horrible - dangerous and very clumsy to control

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Kagetsu

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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 03:17:07 am »

Quote
Oh and IMO ewemarine bags are horrible - dangerous and very clumsy to control
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Couldn't agree more.
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 03:20:26 am »

Quote
Off camera flash is very important because of 'backscatter' if there are debris bubles in the water catch the direct flash light

Lense quality i doubt is too important because water clarity is the major factor

Also lenses get 'longer' under water so you need wider (closer = less water in the way= more quality)

There is also ISO noise to condier - water is a pretty powerful ND filter so you might be kicking up the ISO

I reckon you will buy the G9, have a great time shooting under water - its so much fun - shooting on land is really for sissies - too easy

you will then get hooked to shooting under/in and buy a 5d casing

so it is more cost effective to buy a 5d casing now

Oh and IMO ewemarine bags are horrible - dangerous and very clumsy to control

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What range lens would you be using?
I have a 24-105mm IS and a 50mm
Do zooms work underwater or are they to clumsy?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

Paul Kay

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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 03:54:44 am »

Have a look at www.wetpixel.com which is devoted to digital underwater photography and has some very helpful people on its forums. The optics of underwater cameras is often discussed and you'll find answers to far more questions than you can ask (I paticipate often but other than that have no connection).
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 04:27:23 am »

Quote
What range lens would you be using?
I have a 24-105mm IS and a 50mm
Do zooms work underwater or are they to clumsy?
Marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=147764\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have used 20 which was the widest prime I 'had in stock' and now 10.5 fish which I bought for under water use

on a 5d I reckon a used 20 prime is the best/cheapest option to get going - you are also saving on port costs with small lenses so need to factor that

remember a 20 'turns into a 30' just stick your head under wearing some goggles and watch the world get 'bigger'

zooms are adjustable with the right lens port so they 'work' but I doubt anyone is using the 105 end underwater except for macro

Indeed scour the other forums

p.s I am a 'newb' at cameras under water - dont buy on my advice  

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

roskav

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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 05:00:34 am »

I used a Ewa marine bag for a swimming pool shoot ... and while it worked fine .. was quite bouyant.  The major problem is using a zoom which moves at the front .. on my 17-55 Nikkor it kept reverting to narrower angles as the pressure of the water pushed the front element in.  I found  AF difficult with all of those bubbles in the water... and while the bag allows for a camera mounted flash .. it does pick up all those bubbles in a way that really didn't help the type of image I was going for.. I wouldn't have major worries about the bag's watertightness.... as long as you seal it properly and keep it away from sharp objects it should be fine.

.... I've only done this once .. so I'll echo the disclaimers on this board!

Ros
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mahleu

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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 05:23:39 am »

Also keep in mind the fact that you can handhold very slow shutter speeds underwater as the water dampens all your movement.
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2007, 12:07:02 pm »

Thanks for the advice I'll go over to wetpixel.com
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

stever

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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 07:23:34 pm »

the choice of camera for underwater is also determined by what you want to photograph

i've seen excellent macro and small fish shots with good point and shoot cameras (olympus seems to be a favorite) with a good flash.  the advantage of a point and shoot is that ttl flash is readily available.  the disadvantages are a) they've traditionally been slow focusing (i got lots of fish tales with my point and shoot) with shutter lag - this should no longer be a problem with the right camera choice,  high noise at high ISO (not a problem for smaller subjects with a flash),  c) lack of wide angle - Olympus and perhaps some others have external wide-angle adapters, but i can't see how these lenses would be very good

i shoot a 20D in an Aquatica housing with 10-22, 24-85, and 100 macro lenses (because of slow focusing i'm probably going to replace it with a 60 macro).  the main problem with the 20D is the viewfinder, which problem the 5D overcomes.  I don't think there are ports for the 24-105, but somebody out there may have have one.

Expect to pay $4k for housing, port, and flash.  Some of the housing and flash manufacturers are starting to offer TTL flash and i would recommend exploring this thoroughly before buying - as well as buying from a reputable and experienced dealer.  If you're a DAN member, flood insurance is about 9% of the insured value of camera and lens per year.

Jack and Sue Drafafahl's book Underwater Digital Photography is a good introduction.
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 10:59:09 pm »

Thanks for the book tip I'll start there.
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

jamie_m_

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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2007, 05:30:47 am »

I have a 1Ds that I wanted to take diving, when I started looking for a case it looked like I would need £2500 and have a long(ish) wait for delivery. I got a 5D and case with dome port for £2600 and since I 1/2 wanted a 5D anyway it was an easy choice.

So now I use a 5D and 16-35 f2.8 L with a +1 diopter (not supposed to need the +1 diopter, but without I some times get focus hunting)  in a Ikelite housing with a dome port, and while I can get some good pics because of the size and weight of the thing there are also loads of things I miss and I am giving serious consideration to getting a G9.

I use either a pair of Light Canon HID torches when the visibility is very good (and at night) or a strobe when I can hire or borrow one,  generally available light isnt enough.

One more thing... I've found that divbing with the  5D, case and dual torches reduces my dive time by 25%

So if you 1/2 way fancy a G9 anyway... then I'd say it's a good place to start.
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 01:31:57 pm »

Quote
I have a 1Ds that I wanted to take diving, when I started looking for a case it looked like I would need £2500 and have a long(ish) wait for delivery. I got a 5D and case with dome port for £2600 and since I 1/2 wanted a 5D anyway it was an easy choice.

So now I use a 5D and 16-35 f2.8 L with a +1 diopter (not supposed to need the +1 diopter, but without I some times get focus hunting)  in a Ikelite housing with a dome port, and while I can get some good pics because of the size and weight of the thing there are also loads of things I miss and I am giving serious consideration to getting a G9.

I use either a pair of Light Canon HID torches when the visibility is very good (and at night) or a strobe when I can hire or borrow one,  generally available light isnt enough.

One more thing... I've found that divbing with the  5D, case and dual torches reduces my dive time by 25%

So if you 1/2 way fancy a G9 anyway... then I'd say it's a good place to start.
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If I went the G9 route, would it be worth the added expense to buy the Ikelite housing which supports external strobes, would the Canon housing be a severe limitation?
Thanks
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

islandgolfer

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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 05:17:08 pm »

For the past 10 years, I have gone to Maui twice each year. I spend about three months there each year. I have experimented with underwater photography for several years, now. I have owned simple Canon and Nikon point & shoots to Sea & Sea eqipement with an external strobe. I can make two definite recomentdations. You absolutely must use an external strobe. And, if you think it is powerful enough, get one size bigger. Adequate light is everything under water, especially past 8 feet. You simply can't get all of the colors without it. Second, make sure you have a zoom lens of some sort. You can only get so close to underwater creatures without their wanting to scoot away from you (with the exception of sea turtles). I have also often considered buying a waist weight belt to help stabilize the body bouency problem you can't avoid. And, finally, don't waste time going under if the water isn't ceystle clear and calm. Otherwise, You'll be very disapointed. Unless it is an unusually calm day, I generally don't shoot under water after about 9 AM.

As for the Canon G9, it is a great camera. And, the under water case is very reasonable, considering the DSLR alternative. But, be prepared to also attach a powerful external strobe.
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 05:23:04 pm »

Are the underwater strobes much stronger than a 580ex in an underwater housing?
Marc
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Paul Kay

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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2007, 06:21:47 am »

It is quite possible to add so many bits and pieces onto a compact camera for underwater use that it becomes as expensive as housing a dSLR!

My own view is that housing a compact is the appropriate course to take if you are a primarily a diver who wants to take pictures underwater. If however you are a photographer who dives then my experience from watching others try various equipment, is that you may soon become dis-satisfied with a compact. Its superficial abilities and versatility are not up to the precision offered by a dSLR, but as on land, that precision requires a great deal more user input. Unlike on land, the requirements of underwater photography are quite specific and the ability to understand technique can lead to frustrations with a compact as these do not appear to be good when it cames to dictating to them how you want them to operate. I have a friend who went down the compact route (with Olympus cameras), adding bits and pieces until the system was as complete and versatile as it could be. She then went for a dSLR and found that she struggled initially to match the results from her compact - its a steep learning curve - before she eventually started to take control and produce the images that she actually wanted.

I shoot extensively using EOS1DS cameras underwater and can comment as follows on canon gear. Housing a 580 is ok if you are prepared to use automation only - few housings offer any degree of control due to the switch/button layout - purpose built strobes are a far better option. The 24~105 can be housed/zoomed/ported but its an expensive route and not offered by all housing manufacturers. For 'quality' results it is essential to use the appropriate port which means that any lens wider than about 35mm (on Full Frame) will need a dome port and should be used with a diopter (fisheyes excepted).
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2007, 04:24:59 pm »

From my quick study (all of your comments) a good strobe seems to be the key since they are expensive it makes more sense to house the 5D than buying a G9, this means probably an additional expense of a 15mm lens and dome port. I had hoped for a clever, reasonably priced solution but as usual photographic problems are best solved with $$$$$ so probably after the first of the year I'll invest in an Ikelite housing (seems to be the best priced) a lens (16mm or zoom) and do more research on strobes to preserve the ettl feature.
Thanks
Marc
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 04:56:10 pm by marcmccalmont »
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