Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: marcmccalmont on October 21, 2007, 04:29:04 pm
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I haven't yet ventured into underwater photography but here in Hawaii there would be a lot of great oportunities.
I have a 5d but it looks expensive for a housing and strobe.
1) Does any one have experiance with a more cost effective solution ie G9 + housing?
2) How important is the external strobe to underwater photography?
3) How inportant is camera/lens quality when shooting through water?
Thanks
Marc
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I've used my 5D with Ewa Marine thingo. It works well for what it does, but it's certainly not a diving unit. The great thing is that it works well for situations where you need to take a camera out with you into the water, and it does protect it (it's also a flotation device). But the deeper you want to go the less air you can have in it, and I just don't have enough trust in the sealing system to go any more then a metre at a time... Maybe two metres, but the air pressure in the bag is so great, by the time you get to the bottom, lift the camera up to take a photo, compose it, you're already out of breath from swimming hard to get down.
I think the G9 and a water housing is a great idea personally... It'll allow you much more freedom, and with a large LCD to view find, would be simpler as well.
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I've used my 5D with Ewa Marine thingo. It works well for what it does, but it's certainly not a diving unit. The great thing is that it works well for situations where you need to take a camera out with you into the water, and it does protect it (it's also a flotation device). But the deeper you want to go the less air you can have in it, and I just don't have enough trust in the sealing system to go any more then a metre at a time... Maybe two metres, but the air pressure in the bag is so great, by the time you get to the bottom, lift the camera up to take a photo, compose it, you're already out of breath from swimming hard to get down.
I think the G9 and a water housing is a great idea personally... It'll allow you much more freedom, and with a large LCD to view find, would be simpler as well.
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Did you need a flash or was available light enough?
Marc
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Did you need a flash or was available light enough?
Marc
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Sorry, didn't really elaborate. Yes, a flash it necessary, unless you can do longer exposures... Which is an issue underwater.
Yes, you will need a flash if you want anything that's useable for quick shots at least, but even then, flash units do not work that far underwater either, so you'll end up getting a torch like view.
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I haven't yet ventured into underwater photography but here in Hawaii there would be a lot of great oportunities.
I have a 5d but it looks expensive for a housing and strobe.
1) Does any one have experiance with a more cost effective solution ie G9 + housing?
2) How important is the external strobe to underwater photography?
3) How inportant is camera/lens quality when shooting through water?
Thanks
Marc
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Off camera flash is very important because of 'backscatter' if there are debris bubles in the water catch the direct flash light
Lense quality i doubt is too important because water clarity is the major factor
Also lenses get 'longer' under water so you need wider (closer = less water in the way= more quality)
There is also ISO noise to condier - water is a pretty powerful ND filter so you might be kicking up the ISO
I reckon you will buy the G9, have a great time shooting under water - its so much fun - shooting on land is really for sissies - too easy
you will then get hooked to shooting under/in and buy a 5d casing
so it is more cost effective to buy a 5d casing now
Oh and IMO ewemarine bags are horrible - dangerous and very clumsy to control
SMM
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Oh and IMO ewemarine bags are horrible - dangerous and very clumsy to control
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Couldn't agree more.
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Off camera flash is very important because of 'backscatter' if there are debris bubles in the water catch the direct flash light
Lense quality i doubt is too important because water clarity is the major factor
Also lenses get 'longer' under water so you need wider (closer = less water in the way= more quality)
There is also ISO noise to condier - water is a pretty powerful ND filter so you might be kicking up the ISO
I reckon you will buy the G9, have a great time shooting under water - its so much fun - shooting on land is really for sissies - too easy
you will then get hooked to shooting under/in and buy a 5d casing
so it is more cost effective to buy a 5d casing now
Oh and IMO ewemarine bags are horrible - dangerous and very clumsy to control
SMM
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What range lens would you be using?
I have a 24-105mm IS and a 50mm
Do zooms work underwater or are they to clumsy?
Marc
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Have a look at www.wetpixel.com which is devoted to digital underwater photography and has some very helpful people on its forums. The optics of underwater cameras is often discussed and you'll find answers to far more questions than you can ask (I paticipate often but other than that have no connection).
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What range lens would you be using?
I have a 24-105mm IS and a 50mm
Do zooms work underwater or are they to clumsy?
Marc
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I have used 20 which was the widest prime I 'had in stock' and now 10.5 fish which I bought for under water use
on a 5d I reckon a used 20 prime is the best/cheapest option to get going - you are also saving on port costs with small lenses so need to factor that
remember a 20 'turns into a 30' just stick your head under wearing some goggles and watch the world get 'bigger'
zooms are adjustable with the right lens port so they 'work' but I doubt anyone is using the 105 end underwater except for macro
Indeed scour the other forums
p.s I am a 'newb' at cameras under water - dont buy on my advice
S
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I used a Ewa marine bag for a swimming pool shoot ... and while it worked fine .. was quite bouyant. The major problem is using a zoom which moves at the front .. on my 17-55 Nikkor it kept reverting to narrower angles as the pressure of the water pushed the front element in. I found AF difficult with all of those bubbles in the water... and while the bag allows for a camera mounted flash .. it does pick up all those bubbles in a way that really didn't help the type of image I was going for.. I wouldn't have major worries about the bag's watertightness.... as long as you seal it properly and keep it away from sharp objects it should be fine.
.... I've only done this once .. so I'll echo the disclaimers on this board!
Ros
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Also keep in mind the fact that you can handhold very slow shutter speeds underwater as the water dampens all your movement.
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Thanks for the advice I'll go over to wetpixel.com
Marc
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the choice of camera for underwater is also determined by what you want to photograph
i've seen excellent macro and small fish shots with good point and shoot cameras (olympus seems to be a favorite) with a good flash. the advantage of a point and shoot is that ttl flash is readily available. the disadvantages are a) they've traditionally been slow focusing (i got lots of fish tales with my point and shoot) with shutter lag - this should no longer be a problem with the right camera choice, high noise at high ISO (not a problem for smaller subjects with a flash), c) lack of wide angle - Olympus and perhaps some others have external wide-angle adapters, but i can't see how these lenses would be very good
i shoot a 20D in an Aquatica housing with 10-22, 24-85, and 100 macro lenses (because of slow focusing i'm probably going to replace it with a 60 macro). the main problem with the 20D is the viewfinder, which problem the 5D overcomes. I don't think there are ports for the 24-105, but somebody out there may have have one.
Expect to pay $4k for housing, port, and flash. Some of the housing and flash manufacturers are starting to offer TTL flash and i would recommend exploring this thoroughly before buying - as well as buying from a reputable and experienced dealer. If you're a DAN member, flood insurance is about 9% of the insured value of camera and lens per year.
Jack and Sue Drafafahl's book Underwater Digital Photography is a good introduction.
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Thanks for the book tip I'll start there.
Marc
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I have a 1Ds that I wanted to take diving, when I started looking for a case it looked like I would need £2500 and have a long(ish) wait for delivery. I got a 5D and case with dome port for £2600 and since I 1/2 wanted a 5D anyway it was an easy choice.
So now I use a 5D and 16-35 f2.8 L with a +1 diopter (not supposed to need the +1 diopter, but without I some times get focus hunting) in a Ikelite housing with a dome port, and while I can get some good pics because of the size and weight of the thing there are also loads of things I miss and I am giving serious consideration to getting a G9.
I use either a pair of Light Canon HID torches when the visibility is very good (and at night) or a strobe when I can hire or borrow one, generally available light isnt enough.
One more thing... I've found that divbing with the 5D, case and dual torches reduces my dive time by 25%
So if you 1/2 way fancy a G9 anyway... then I'd say it's a good place to start.
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I have a 1Ds that I wanted to take diving, when I started looking for a case it looked like I would need £2500 and have a long(ish) wait for delivery. I got a 5D and case with dome port for £2600 and since I 1/2 wanted a 5D anyway it was an easy choice.
So now I use a 5D and 16-35 f2.8 L with a +1 diopter (not supposed to need the +1 diopter, but without I some times get focus hunting) in a Ikelite housing with a dome port, and while I can get some good pics because of the size and weight of the thing there are also loads of things I miss and I am giving serious consideration to getting a G9.
I use either a pair of Light Canon HID torches when the visibility is very good (and at night) or a strobe when I can hire or borrow one, generally available light isnt enough.
One more thing... I've found that divbing with the 5D, case and dual torches reduces my dive time by 25%
So if you 1/2 way fancy a G9 anyway... then I'd say it's a good place to start.
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If I went the G9 route, would it be worth the added expense to buy the Ikelite housing which supports external strobes, would the Canon housing be a severe limitation?
Thanks
Marc
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For the past 10 years, I have gone to Maui twice each year. I spend about three months there each year. I have experimented with underwater photography for several years, now. I have owned simple Canon and Nikon point & shoots to Sea & Sea eqipement with an external strobe. I can make two definite recomentdations. You absolutely must use an external strobe. And, if you think it is powerful enough, get one size bigger. Adequate light is everything under water, especially past 8 feet. You simply can't get all of the colors without it. Second, make sure you have a zoom lens of some sort. You can only get so close to underwater creatures without their wanting to scoot away from you (with the exception of sea turtles). I have also often considered buying a waist weight belt to help stabilize the body bouency problem you can't avoid. And, finally, don't waste time going under if the water isn't ceystle clear and calm. Otherwise, You'll be very disapointed. Unless it is an unusually calm day, I generally don't shoot under water after about 9 AM.
As for the Canon G9, it is a great camera. And, the under water case is very reasonable, considering the DSLR alternative. But, be prepared to also attach a powerful external strobe.
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Are the underwater strobes much stronger than a 580ex in an underwater housing?
Marc
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It is quite possible to add so many bits and pieces onto a compact camera for underwater use that it becomes as expensive as housing a dSLR!
My own view is that housing a compact is the appropriate course to take if you are a primarily a diver who wants to take pictures underwater. If however you are a photographer who dives then my experience from watching others try various equipment, is that you may soon become dis-satisfied with a compact. Its superficial abilities and versatility are not up to the precision offered by a dSLR, but as on land, that precision requires a great deal more user input. Unlike on land, the requirements of underwater photography are quite specific and the ability to understand technique can lead to frustrations with a compact as these do not appear to be good when it cames to dictating to them how you want them to operate. I have a friend who went down the compact route (with Olympus cameras), adding bits and pieces until the system was as complete and versatile as it could be. She then went for a dSLR and found that she struggled initially to match the results from her compact - its a steep learning curve - before she eventually started to take control and produce the images that she actually wanted.
I shoot extensively using EOS1DS cameras underwater and can comment as follows on canon gear. Housing a 580 is ok if you are prepared to use automation only - few housings offer any degree of control due to the switch/button layout - purpose built strobes are a far better option. The 24~105 can be housed/zoomed/ported but its an expensive route and not offered by all housing manufacturers. For 'quality' results it is essential to use the appropriate port which means that any lens wider than about 35mm (on Full Frame) will need a dome port and should be used with a diopter (fisheyes excepted).
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From my quick study (all of your comments) a good strobe seems to be the key since they are expensive it makes more sense to house the 5D than buying a G9, this means probably an additional expense of a 15mm lens and dome port. I had hoped for a clever, reasonably priced solution but as usual photographic problems are best solved with $$$$$ so probably after the first of the year I'll invest in an Ikelite housing (seems to be the best priced) a lens (16mm or zoom) and do more research on strobes to preserve the ettl feature.
Thanks
Marc
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If you are interested in taking the Ikelite/5D route, then take a look at their DS125 strobe. If you go with a fisheye lens you will almost certainly need 2 though! My real favourite wide-angle is a 24mm f/1.4 and many single strobes, including I think the DS125, have sufficient coverage to operate with this focal length - its not everyone's cu of tea though!
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I've used my 5D with Ewa Marine thingo. It works well for what it does, but it's certainly not a diving unit. The great thing is that it works well for situations where you need to take a camera out with you into the water, and it does protect it (it's also a flotation device). But the deeper you want to go the less air you can have in it, and I just don't have enough trust in the sealing system to go any more then a metre at a time... Maybe two metres, but the air pressure in the bag is so great, by the time you get to the bottom, lift the camera up to take a photo, compose it, you're already out of breath from swimming hard to get down.
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The Ewa marine plastic bag housing has more chance of leaking in the top 2 metres because of the LACK of pressure on the seals. This is where most of the floodings occur with this type of housing.
I would advise to choose the camera you like and are comfortable with - the one you intend to use on land - and the one you intend to keep for a few years, then get the housing for it.
You must be familiar with the camera you are using under water and know it like the back of your hand. You don't want to be trying to work knobs and sorting out where the functions are on your 'new' camera, when you have added variables such as ensuring oxygen supply and watching bottom time.
Even familiarity with processing of a particular camera is important. If you have an established routine and processing parameters and routines for a particular camera which you use on land, it is way easier to continue with these (although there are slight colour anomalies which present under water).
and yes... heaps of strobe.
Julie
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Here (http://www.eyman.org/fiji%5Funderwater/content/IMG_3301_large.html) are some snapshots I took with a Canon SD700 P&S in the Canon housing and the internal flash only. I carry the P&S around just in case, and while planning the trip to Fiji bought the case on a whim. After all, it was only $134 & I would want to take snapshots in the dive boats, anyway.
I was pleasantly surprised at the results. The first thing I'll do is buy a strobe -- and a good enough one that if I buy a housing for the 5D one day I can use it. As everyone has said, there's never enough light.
carl
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From my quick study (all of your comments) a good strobe seems to be the key since they are expensive it makes more sense to house the 5D than buying a G9, this means probably an additional expense of a 15mm lens and dome port. I had hoped for a clever, reasonably priced solution but as usual photographic problems are best solved with $$$$$ so probably after the first of the year I'll invest in an Ikelite housing (seems to be the best priced) a lens (16mm or zoom) and do more research on strobes to preserve the ettl feature.
Thanks
Marc
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A quick save on cash is to go for a used 20mm (as my first post) )or maybe a sigma wide lense
I hate stigma lenses because I feel them not to be phisically robust easily sratched etc but if they are only used in a housing the robustness is provided by the housing
S
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I would like DxO compatibility also. The 15mm 2.8 fisheye, 20mm 2.8 and the 16-35mm 2.8 ver I all are available used (eBay), DxO compatible and fit the 6" dome. The zoom might be the most versatile.
Thanks
Marc
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I've got the Ikelite housing for my 5D and two ds125 strobes, and can recommend their units. The ikelite will offer you eTTL flash exposure and flash compensation on the outside controls which is a big plus. I use my 17-40mm zoom with the ikelite which has a control to adjust zoom which is really cool.
I started my underwater exploration with a rented rig in a titan housing. I much prefer the ikelite.
I believe another way to go could be using the nikonos 35mm set-ups which can be had very cheap on ebay.
As others have pointed out, you will really find out how much crap there is in water - angle of sunlight and orientation of flash will be important. You will also want to be as close to your subject as possible for the same reason.
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there's a pretty good reason the nikonos are cheap on EBAY - digital
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there's a pretty good reason the nikonos are cheap on EBAY - digital
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As I wrote earlier, I sprung for the ikelite and 5D. The nikonos might still be a good deal if you only have a few shoots planned its a good way to get the quality you'll likely want. Starting out, I a shoot with a nikon d70, and then one with a canon 20d and neither of these had enough real detail to make prints bigger than 8x10 - a surprise because it was there above water.
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i'm certainly getting detail from the 20D underwater to print larger than 8x10 even with the 17-85. I think the size of print i can make is limited as much by water conditions as the camera - although if you want to shoot wide angle, the lens choices for Canons crop-frames aren't stellar.
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Like everything else in photography, it depends on how serious you want to get and what you want to photograph. I've used an old Canon S50 with a cheap housing down to 30m, and it produces pretty decent close up shots. The housing is cheap, transparent and the built-in flash shoots through it reasonably satisfactorily. A strobe is essential not just because of absolute light levels, but to replace the red light that is absorbed underwater. You'll also need the ability to get it well off the lens axis otherwise particle scatter will kill your shots. And ideally you want two strobes. Whether you want to match those to a 5D in an Ikelite (if you get even partially serious, that's the way to go) or the DSLR in a cheap housing, it'll make the world of difference, even to macros.
Also, expect to use more gas as you inevitably use up quite a bit more energy than you would without the camera. Ideally dive overweight to improve your stability, so yet more gas will get used. And keep an eye on your guages as it's alll too easy to get absorbed in the picture taking. Best if you get yourself tech qualified and go shallow on twins, which will give you quite a bit more time.
It can be very rewarding, but there's a lot of gear to carry around and take into the water!
Peter
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there's a pretty good reason the nikonos are cheap on EBAY - digital[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=149120\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Nikonos is a bugger to use - manual everything, and you have to make guesstimate corrections for focus distances. By the time you've thought it all through and pressed the shutter, you're lucky if the shot's correctly exposed and / or in focus, and indeed if your subject hung around long enough for you to stop messing about. I wouldn't think twice about it - digital is the only way to go underwater, IMHO.
Peter
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you can get good images with one strobe - i'd recommend getting comfortable positioning and aiming one strobe before adding a second
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The Nikonos is a bugger to use - manual everything, and you have to make guesstimate corrections for focus distances. By the time you've thought it all through and pressed the shutter, you're lucky if the shot's correctly exposed and / or in focus, and indeed if your subject hung around long enough for you to stop messing about. I wouldn't think twice about it - digital is the only way to go underwater, IMHO.
Peter
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Hmmmm, I looked in here because I am interested in the housed G-9, but, sorry Peter, I have to strongly disagree with you re. the Nikonos. I have two V's and a IV. With the 15 mm lens, the Nikonos 5 handles like a P&S, except much better pix (a lot of pros who switched to digital still use the 15mm Nikonos for wide angle. It has such a wide depth of field it's almost impossible to get out-of-focus shots with just a bit of care. Auto mode works very well for 75% of the shots, and if you are looking for certain effects eg, sunburst in top of pic, you just pre-adjust, which you would have to do with any camera, even the most sophisticated housed dslr.
I scan my slides, put them on the computer, and then process them if I need to. I'm thinking of switching to digital because I'd like more flexibility underwater, and I'd like to see if I got the shot I wanted while I still have a chance to redo it, and I don't like running out of film when THE shot of the dive appears. Also, I've gotten some wonderful macro shots with the tubes and framing wires. BUT, critters don't like the wires in their faces, and when I have that set up, I'm stuck with macro for the whole dive.
But, again, Peter, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG about your percetions of the Nikonos.
Jim
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I've shot underwater on Nikonos IIs, IIIs, IVs & Vs! Nikon F, F2, F4, F801, and F100, I now shoot underwater with Canon 1DS/5D and there is nothing that could tempt me to use a Nikonos again. Sorry to be so blunt, but the Nikonos was (ie all were), at its best, pretty hard work to use IMHO. They could be used, and with effort could produce some excellent results, but in comparison to a modern dSLR all Nikonos cameras are archaic and the difference in output quantity/quality is substantially orders of magnitude!!! Compare a Nikonos V to something like a G9 and the difference is still pretty dramatic - you only have to look at divers to see how many more now use cameras - and get results! I'd actually say that the underwater world embraced digital faster and with more appreciation than the above! Digital has revolutionised underwater photography and the Nikonos has sadly had its day.